Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: Ben on February 07, 2014, 10:47:21 AM
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What I found the most interesting in this story was the report of the California event. Maybe we talked about it here, but I can't for the life of me remember it. I don't believe it was any kind of a "big story" in CA either, which also surprised me as it also seems to fit CA's anti-gun agenda, so win-win for "safety first" statists.
It also once again seems to show that the Al Qaeda terrorists are not the masterminds many conservative politicians (I'm looking at you Peter King, you fearmonger) make them out to be, because they seem to be missing many "easy" targets like this (the story indicates it was not Al Qaeda).
This is not to say that I believe our power grid is not vulnerable, I believe it is very vulnerable. I'm not sure what steps can be taken that don't involve more "for your safety" reductions in our freedoms.
Side note, how did Waxman know the weapons were "military style"? The story seems to indicate no one has been caught. Even if they found brass, how do we know it didn't come out of "pappy's huntin' rifle"?
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/02/07/lawmakers-push-to-protect-electric-grid-after-report-on-attack/
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There was a far more detailed article in the WSJ. The brass was identified as from an AK-47, according to the article. It goes into some detail as to the planning and execution of the attack, which makes people concerned as to it being carried out by people who knew what they were doing.
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Side note, how did Waxman know the weapons were "military style"? The story seems to indicate no one has been caught. Even if they found brass, how do we know it didn't come out of "pappy's huntin' rifle"?
100 rounds from a bolt gun will take quite a while. Probably an AR, if .223. If x39, it most likely wasn't a CZ bolt action. ;)
Regardless, the extraction stroke will typically result in a dented case mouth if fired from a semiautomatic rifle. And extractor marks are more prominent in semiauto fired brass, than in manual action rifles.
WTF are more laws going to do to improve this, other than jack up the cost of electricity since more taxes or overall costs will just be passed to the consumer in their bill? Best resolution to this problem isn't attempting to beef up resiliency at unmanned distro stations. Best resolution is greater decentralization and encouraging people to solar-up their rooftops. Then those distro stations become less important to the grid.
But, you know the "resolution" will just be to add a layer of AR500 to the critical equipment at distro stations, and these same guys (or similar ones) will just switch to molotov cocktails and cook the transformers rather than shooting them.
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100 rounds from a bolt gun will take quite a while. Probably an AR, if .223. If x39, it most likely wasn't a CZ bolt action. ;)
The article says more than 100 rounds in 19 minutes. I can do that with a rolling block. Heck, with paper cartridges, I could probably do that with a flintlock.
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The real question they should investigate is where did the terrists find 100 rounds of ammo to buy? :P =D
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Ah, sorry, the WSJ link asked me to login, so I didn't read that article. A hundred rounds in 20 minutes though, seems like though this was planned, they weren't all that sophisticated, as it seems they may have been "hunting and pecking" for a vulnerable piece of infrastructure.
Regardless, I agree with AZ on more decentralization and redundancy being a better answer than more security. I've told the story a hundred times here, but during the Northridge, CA earthquake, I was without power for several days because of a node outage 100 miles away.
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I've told the story a hundred times here, but during the Northridge, CA earthquake, I was without power for several days because of a node outage 100 miles away.
Interesting. Where were you? I was in Pasadena at the time and I don't recall losing power. In fact, I remember watching my computer monitor (which was mounted on one of those goofy adjustable arms) bounce during some of the aftershocks.
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The "attack" Sounds more like a couple of drunk hillbillies with a rifle, just enough knowledge to be dangerous, and too much free time.
Brad
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Interesting. Where were you? I was in Pasadena at the time and I don't recall losing power. In fact, I remember watching my computer monitor (which was mounted on one of those goofy adjustable arms) bounce during some of the aftershocks.
I was in Ventura. From what I remember, apparently a good portion of the city got power from a node somewhere in West LA county, and when that went out, it created a cascade that the substations couldn't keep up with. It was an unexpected wake-up call in preparedness, as we had very little damage, but were affected by something a good ways away. I think it was like a day and a half of no power, and then on and off for another day or two until everything was fixed. I was barbequing a lot. :laugh:
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The "attack" Sounds more like a couple of drunk hillbillies with a rifle, just enough knowledge to be dangerous, and too much free time.
Brad
Except for the cutting of the wires in the substation before the attack.
My guess is this was a "feeler" attack to assess vulnerabilities. We may have just answered their question very publicly.
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Except for the cutting of the wires in the substation before the attack.
My guess is this was a "feeler" attack to assess vulnerabilities. We may have just answered their question very publicly.
It's been obvious to me for a long time ... ;/
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Except for the cutting of the wires in the substation before the attack.
My guess is this was a "feeler" attack to assess vulnerabilities. We may have just answered their question very publicly.
And it seems likely the legislation will do little more than highlight the most vulnerable parts of the infrastructure.
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Maybe if California had a large population of people that enjoyed going out in rural remote areas... doing things like hunting, practicing marksmanship, hiking, backpacking, ATV/dirtbiking and so on... bad people wouldn't feel so confident in doing things like this?
Nah... that whole 2A thing doesn't have any bearing here at all. Go ahead and ban more guns in California. Make the legislative environment that much more hostile to self-reliant and self-responsible people so they don't even want to live in your State. Increase taxes so people can't afford toys like RV's and dirtbikes.
That'll increase your rural security around remote power distribution centers, for sure. ;)
(Chances of something like attack this happening in AZ are practically nil. It's "possible," but sustained gunfire for 10-20 minutes in a place that isn't typically a desert plinking pit tends to get investigated... either by the good old boys, or by a call to the local Sheriff's office.)
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Maybe if California had a large population of people that enjoyed going out in rural remote areas... doing things like hunting, practicing marksmanship, hiking, backpacking, ATV/dirtbiking and so on... bad people wouldn't feel so confident in doing things like this?
I think everyone knows I am no fan of my home state these days, but I would hazard to guess that there are few million more people doing these things in CA than in AZ, even with the drop in hunting over the last twenty years. There are still a ton of gunowners here, and certainly with a population of 38 million, more people hike and backpack here than in possibly any other state. Even with that, I can still go and camp or hike in all kinds of areas in CA and not see anyone all day or all weekend. I also wouldn't have cell phone coverage to call 911. Even if a remote substation had realtime video surveillance, it could still take a Sheriff's deputy easily twenty minutes to get there.
If I were near a substation and heard shooting, not knowing what was going on, or even if I saw people shooting at the substation, I wouldn't be in a hurry to run into a basically unknown situation with guns blazing.
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Ben, CA is a lot bigger than AZ. I bet you a shiny nickle that the ratio of outdoors-oriented people per square mile is a lot lower there.
And I never advocated going in "guns blazing." The number of people who can competently shoot from more than 500 yards away is pretty small. I'd be perfectly comfortable sneaking up to within half a mile of someone doing something suspicious with a rifle and getting a better idea of what's going on.
If I saw several middle eastern men shooting up an electrical substation... who knows? I might intervene forcibly. I know that I can make that shot from 600+ yards a lot more competently than 99.9% of people out there. If the substation was visibly on fire as a result of the damage (that electrolytic fluid is flammable, and plenty of sources for sparks), I probably would. Henry Bowman's teenage rape intervention comes to mind. If it can be done and never talked about afterwards and no evidence left... no problem with it.
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Those substations are pretty vulnerable.
A few teams of people hitting different substations at the same time with .50BMGs could take down a significant portion of the grid if they know what they are doing- and it doesn't take a lot of shooting- punch a few holes in the colling jackets of the transformers and walk away.
About a decade ago, they arrested an eco-nut in my state for similar attacks on the power grid- he simply took loops of cable and chucked them over the fence so they landed on top of the transformers, iirc, he pretty much operated only in rural areas though.
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Those substations are pretty vulnerable.
A few teams of people hitting different substations at the same time with .50BMGs could take down a significant portion of the grid if they know what they are doing- and it doesn't take a lot of shooting- punch a few holes in the colling jackets of the transformers and walk away.
About a decade ago, they arrested an eco-nut in my state for similar attacks on the power grid- he simply took loops of cable and chucked them over the fence so they landed on top of the transformers, iirc, he pretty much operated only in rural areas though.
Obviously from the article, they won't even need .50 caliber. An underpowered intermediate caliber is more than sufficient.
(If they were smart, they'd be using 30/30, but maybe they prefer a manual of arms they are familiar with.)
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About a decade ago, they arrested an eco-nut in my state for similar attacks on the power grid- he simply took loops of cable and chucked them over the fence so they landed on top of the transformers, iirc, he pretty much operated only in rural areas though.
This; gun regulation won't help if any idiot with a fiberglass pole, a length of wire, and some fly casting practice can do just as much damage.
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This; gun regulation won't help if any idiot with a fiberglass pole, a length of wire, and some fly casting practice can do just as much damage.
Indeed. I'm guessing that the accidental release of Mylar balloons has caused a good number more power outages than all the bullets ever fired.
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If they were smart, they'd be using 30/30
fifty caliber patched ball >:D
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Wait, I thought AKs were illegal in Kalifornia?
Maybe it was an SKS.
Or a VZ-52/57 SHE.
Or a Mini-30.
AKs sound evil, though, so an AK it is! ;/
Aluminum foil chaff at a substation for the win. It's how we took out Saddam's power grid.
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Sssssshhhhhh, you're giving away military secrets and helping the turrrrrrrrists win.
=D =D ;/ ;/
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fifty caliber patched ball >:D
Or just 12 gauge slugs. That's .710 caliber right there.
Or 00 buckshot. 9 .33 caliber holes per shot. Fire 11 rounds and you've got more holes than emptying 3 AK mags.
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Pretty sure the latest power bomb tech is graphite fiber. That'd be a mess. Here's a fun thing I confirmed recently, I wondered if transformer oil was still full of PCBs. I'm guessing yep now. Local substation went up in smoke last summer. Construction work on that thing took six months to replace one transformer. Everything got dug up.
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the power grid will always be vulnerable. firearms are not the biggest threat, anyone with an acetylene torch could shut a high tension line.
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Pretty sure the latest power bomb tech is graphite fiber. That'd be a mess. Here's a fun thing I confirmed recently, I wondered if transformer oil was still full of PCBs. I'm guessing yep now. Local substation went up in smoke last summer. Construction work on that thing took six months to replace one transformer. Everything got dug up.
'Yep' would be correct.
A friend of mine is an analytical chemist for a waste disposal service- he turns away shipments of old transformers all the time for that reason.
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In the WSJ article, the point was made that transformers are a custom item and can take months to manufacture.
The country's roughly 2,000 very large transformers are expensive to build, often costing millions of dollars each, and hard to replace. Each is custom made and weighs up to 500,000 pounds, and "I can only build 10 units a month," said Dennis Blake, general manager of Pennsylvania Transformer in Pittsburgh, one of seven U.S. manufacturers. The utility industry keeps some spares on hand.
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the power grid will always be vulnerable. firearms are not the biggest threat, anyone with an acetylene torch could shut a high tension line.
Yeah, the towers of the big transmission line a few miles south of here just sit balanced on a single leg, with four big guylines holding them up. Some of the towers sit in a seasonal lake bottom. They have installed pilings around the square of each tower to keep the ice from knocking out a guyline - and a tower.
Cut one of those guylines and the tension of the other three would pull it right over. I don't imagine that a big set of power lines like that coming down would do much to improve the stability of the entire grid =|
Miles and miles of power line across miles and miles of mostly empty prairie ....
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There was a far more detailed article in the WSJ. The brass was identified as from an AK-47, according to the article.
Well that certainly narrows it down. I'm glad we've got that sorted out.
Move along, now, move along.
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One thing will certainly come from Congress' efforts: Much higher electric rates.
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In the WSJ article, the point was made that transformers are a custom item and can take months to manufacture.
The country's roughly 2,000 very large transformers are expensive to build, often costing millions of dollars each, and hard to replace. Each is custom made and weighs up to 500,000 pounds, and "I can only build 10 units a month," said Dennis Blake, general manager of Pennsylvania Transformer in Pittsburgh, one of seven U.S. manufacturers. The utility industry keeps some spares on hand.
Yep. Always wondered why that stuff wasn't a bigger target. I guess most violent bozos don't know what they are.
Think about all the power outages caused by snakes and critters crawling into switchgear.
I was watching this Stalone movie about escaping a prison. He is running around with the aim of disrupting things. He is passing banks of electrical MCC's or high voltage breakers yet never thinks to at least trip the breakers as he goes by.
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Yep. Always wondered why that stuff wasn't a bigger target. I guess most violent bozos don't know what they are.
Attacking them also generally only causes disruption, not death. We'll just fix the damage. They keep it up, sooner or later they'll screw up and we'll catch them. Terrorists without a body count will be seen as pathetic, not martyrs to the cause.
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One thing will certainly come from Congress' efforts: Much higher electric rates.
Quoted for truth.
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Attacking them also generally only causes disruption, not death. We'll just fix the damage. They keep it up, sooner or later they'll screw up and we'll catch them. Terrorists without a body count will be seen as pathetic, not martyrs to the cause.
A massive power outage during one of the coldest parts of the winter WILL cause death, not just disruption.
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A massive power outage during one of the coldest parts of the winter WILL cause death, not just disruption.
Yes, but it won't have the immediate effect that terrorists look for. Plus, well, you need to know where to target(there are redundancies), and it means being outside during the coldest parts of winter to effect the plan.
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It really depends on how it is carried out. With some proper planning, a group could figure out the location of all the main high voltage substations/lines feeding an area or just figure out where that equipment is on several large power plants in an area. I bet someone could figure out how to target that infrastructure all around a major city. Or just randomly attack high voltage transformers all over until a shortage occurs or replacements are not available. Either way, it would cause a law enforcement and security disruption even if it didn't cause immediate deaths.
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and it means being outside during the coldest parts of winter to effect the plan.
Or hottest parts of summer- which is where I think would cause much more disruption.
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I have come to the conclusion that there really is virtually no terrorist threat (inside the US) - otherwise, they would have hit all these soft targets long long ago.
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I have come to the conclusion that there really is virtually no terrorist threat (inside the US) - otherwise, they would have hit all these soft targets long long ago.
???
The trouble with that theory is the next day could be the day they release their follow on to 9/11/01.
There are mosques all over America teaching Jihadi philosophy.
When they graduate their students is anyone's guess. >:D
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???
The trouble with that theory is the next day could be the day they release their follow on to 9/11/01.
There are synagogues all over America teaching Jihadi philosophy.
When they graduate their students is anyone's guess. >:D
I am pretty confident in stating that I doubt very much the typical synagogue is teaching Jihadi philosophy.
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I have come to the conclusion that there really is virtually no terrorist threat (inside the US) - otherwise, they would have hit all these soft targets long long ago.
Terrorists aren't that smart, well equipped, or familiar with our systems. And when an American gets crazy enough to want to kill random civilians in his own country he's generally also not logical enough to do the non-flashy but worse stuff we talk about here.
???
The trouble with that theory is the next day could be the day they release their follow on to 9/11/01.
There are synagogues all over America teaching Jihadi philosophy.
When they graduate their students is anyone's guess. >:D
Questions Tommygunn can't answer: what is an Islamic place of worship and instruction called?
My days of not taking your threat assessment seriously are certainly coming to a middle.
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Ha ha Sparked another controversy ..... >:D
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I am pretty confident in stating that I doubt very much the typical synagogue is teaching Jihadi philosophy.
Maybe they are trying to mosque their true intentions ... =|
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Maybe they are trying to mosque their true intentions ... =|
Sharia you can't be serious.
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Ha ha Sparked another controversy ..... >:D
I'm not sure mocking you counts as a controversy.
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Dam, what if they go after the electric turbans ? :O
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I'm not sure mocking you counts as a controversy.
I'm sure mocking you wouldn't.
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I'm sure mocking you wouldn't.
:rofl:
You're cute when you're mad.
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Dam, what if they go after the electric turbans ? :O
Ooooh! I wish I had come up with that. Watt's wrong with me?
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:rofl:
You're cute when you're mad.
Oh you're so witty and cuddly....
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Ooooh! I wish I had come up with that. Watt's wrong with me?
Ohm not sure, but he really made you look like a joule there.
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Roughly 80% of mosques in America get significant portions of their budget from the KSA. So, it is pretty safe to say that, yes, they are teaching jihad. The two biggest mosques in the DFW area both are very pro-jihadi. One (the Sunni) stocks jihadi lit out in the open at their book store. Sayyid Qutb(1) being just one of the authors. The other (s h i i t e) holds fundraising dinners in honor of Ruhollah Khomeini (2).
So, yeah, they teach jihad. Luckily, not all that many have actually done anything to back up their religious convictions. Oh, well, except for funding jihad overseas via money & hardware laundering (Yet another lovely Muslim organization in DFW did that). Perhaps they are not too keen to foul the nest, seeing as they have a pretty sweet deal here in the 'States, relative to the dunghill back home. Likely, the most damaging influence is their mere presence in the USA. Looking around the West, they start causing trouble once they reach a particular percentage of the population and/or can somehow leverage political power via multiculturalism.
(1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayyid_Qutb
...an Egyptian author, educator, Islamic theorist, poet, and the leading member of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood in the 1950s and 1960s. In 1966 he was convicted of plotting the assassination of Egyptian president Gamal Abdel Nasser and was executed by hanging...
(2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khomeni
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http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-grid-attack-20140211,0,7627269.story#axzz2t1KTTxX6
A better article. Still does not look like Jethro and Cletus out on the town.
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Well, if the Guard wants to bring me up on orders, give me a rifle, and have me babysit a substation for awhile, I'll do it. Nothing keeps those federal dollars flowing like real-world missions. :P
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Forty yards is not a particularly long shot even with an AK-47 ;/
I've shot dogs offhand at that range.
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I get a kick out of the media's FUD-filled descriptions. 'Snipers' indeed, to hit those massive transformers (like this: http://www.hiwtc.com/products/oil-immersed-power-transformers-with-oltc-5896-59770.htm) at the incredible distance of 40 yards.
It did show some planning - cutting cable, sounds like lookouts were posted to alert the shooter(s) when cops were coming. At first I thought it was the media being drama queens (since their firearms ID skills are sorely lacking) about a bunch of redneck types with beer, ammo, and time, but now it seems a bit more serious.
The shooting part seems strangely slow, and some articles suggest there were two shooters. 120 rounds in 20 minutes at a big target at 40 yards is not all that impressive, I could do that offhand with an SMLE and a stack of loaded stripper clips. With an AK, you ought to be done before 10 minutes with carefully aimed fire.
And of course, a ghost gun could do the deed in 2 seconds. :P
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The shooting part seems strangely slow, and some articles suggest there were two shooters. 120 rounds in 20 minutes at a big target at 40 yards is not all that impressive, I could do that offhand with an SMLE and a stack of loaded stripper clips.
Isn't 6 shots a minute fairly standard for an infantryman with a Brown Bess?
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I get that can figure out how many shots were fired by counting brass and/or holes or dings in transformers.
Could they have used SKS's? Maybe Tapco'd all to hell with 7 MOA accuracy at 100yards?
But how do they know how long they were there? The time from the first transformer going down, to the last?
Perhaps they were also testing response time (both police and electric company).
Remember the 9/11 hijackers did a few test runs prior to the big day. And don't hold out much hope that those that wish to do us harm will stay stupid. Some of them have western educations (like bin Laden and his engineering experience) that could also be used to evil ends.
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Remember the 9/11 hijackers did a few test runs prior to the big day. And don't hold out much hope that those that wish to do us harm will stay stupid. Some of them have western educations (like bin Laden and his engineering experience) that could also be used to evil ends.
It's funny how great of a threat terrism is made out to be, but when some Middle Easterner actually commits mass murder then it's "workplace violence" or "isolated event not connected to Al Quaeda" ;/
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But how do they know how long they were there? The time from the first transformer going down, to the last?
There's probably computerized logging of transformer oil pressure. There's most certainly a log of the time that the fiber optic signal was cut, because the transformer substation will be updating central monitoring networks with operational stats on a constant basis. So start where those log entries are missing and go from there... then query the local computer systems at the substation that track the oil pressure and other stats prior to passing them up the chain.
ETA: Heck, they probably know to the second, or at least a 5 second interval, when the fiber line was cut. SNMP or QoS monitoring of the data line itself.
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There is video
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk
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There is video
Exactly. If you will find the article, they have a narration of what is seen in the video. (Not much, but indications of someone signalling with a flashlight and the actual attack.)
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Exactly. If you will find the article, they have a narration of what is seen in the video. (Not much, but indications of someone signalling with a flashlight and the actual attack.)
Looks like they were right up at the fence. Imagine what they could have done if they'd had bolt cutters to get in with.
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Looks like they were right up at the fence. Imagine what they could have done if they'd had bolt cutters to get in with.
I'm fairly certain that would have gotten them on camera. I think they were more concerned with avoiding detection than maximizing the extent of damage they could cause. (Which fits with this being a probing attack.)
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How hard would it be to fly an RC airplane in there trailing a strip of aluminum foil...? =|
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How hard would it be to fly an RC airplane in there trailing a strip of aluminum foil...? =|
Not at all. Heck i have a spindle of carbon fiber ribbon in my build kit.
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There is video
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Fascinating. Care to post a link?
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There's probably computerized logging of transformer oil pressure. There's most certainly a log of the time that the fiber optic signal was cut, because the transformer substation will be updating central monitoring networks with operational stats on a constant basis. So start where those log entries are missing and go from there... then query the local computer systems at the substation that track the oil pressure and other stats prior to passing them up the chain.
ETA: Heck, they probably know to the second, or at least a 5 second interval, when the fiber line was cut. SNMP or QoS monitoring of the data line itself.
Do they log that? Most smaller transformers in plants just have over pressure and maybe low level switches.
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Do they log that? Most smaller transformers in plants just have over pressure and maybe low level switches.
Hell, I can log it on my car for historic trending with an OBD-II to bluetooth adapter and some database software. I've seen guys who do this with sports cars and tablets or laptops. Cross-reference RPM's to elevation, gear selection and exhaust O2 levels. Things like that.
I don't know if they DO log that, but I don't see a reason why they wouldn't. Just to simplify maintenance.
Heck, I did it 10+ years ago at a school district I used to work for. I put every laserjet printer in the district into an SNMP monitoring app to pull fuser unit page counts and estimate the number of anticipated failures for the next year, total page count for the printer to estimate how many new printers to buy, receive reporting for specific type of paper feed errors to keep spare paper feed rollers on hand, things like that.
I'd be very depressed to learn that the only utilization of that fiber optic cable was a video feed.
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I'd be very depressed to learn that the only utilization of that fiber optic cable was a video feed.
That was the main output line; POE adapter, then bridge it to fiber.
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http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304071004579409631825984744?mod=ITP_pageone_0&mg=reno64-wsj
A follow-up article in the WSJ about the tremendous lead time, cost and shipping time to replace power transformers, and how the grid could be crippled by taking them out. Yikes.
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http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304071004579409631825984744?mod=ITP_pageone_0&mg=reno64-wsj
A follow-up article in the WSJ about the tremendous lead time, cost and shipping time to replace power transformers, and how the grid could be crippled by taking them out. Yikes.
I've been following that for a while. I can't see any economic drivers that would cause the manufacturers to build and stage many more of them than they do. I guess the .gov could make taxpayers pay to have a bunch built and staged, which might not be a terrible use of taxpayer dollars compared to some other energy related stuff our taxes go to.
It's another reason why I think the US in general, and progressives and tree huggers in particular, should spend more of their energy (ha ha) on pursuing concurrent development of individual use alternative energy sources versus stuff like giant solar farms in the desert. If houses and businesses had a few solar panels, or a wind turbine (depending on geography) or a conventional generator for that matter, in concert with grid power, if there was a grid attack, a majority of the population could still have enough power to at least keep a refrigerator and other basic and essential power going for a while. It could make the difference between a calm and orderly response to loss of the grid, and riots.
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Better investment than Solyndra.
Sawdust
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I've been following that for a while. I can't see any economic drivers that would cause the manufacturers to build and stage many more of them than they do. I guess the .gov could make taxpayers pay to have a bunch built and staged, which might not be a terrible use of taxpayer dollars compared to some other energy related stuff our taxes go to.
It's another reason why I think the US in general, and progressives and tree huggers in particular, should spend more of their energy (ha ha) on pursuing concurrent development of individual use alternative energy sources versus stuff like giant solar farms in the desert. If houses and businesses had a few solar panels, or a wind turbine (depending on geography) or a conventional generator for that matter, in concert with grid power, if there was a grid attack, a majority of the population could still have enough power to at least keep a refrigerator and other basic and essential power going for a while. It could make the difference between a calm and orderly response to loss of the grid, and riots.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/williampentland/2013/08/14/redox-power-plans-to-roll-out-dishwasher-sized-fuel-cells-that-cost-90-less-than-currently-available-fuel-cells/
I've been watching developments along these lines closely.
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http://www.forbes.com/sites/williampentland/2013/08/14/redox-power-plans-to-roll-out-dishwasher-sized-fuel-cells-that-cost-90-less-than-currently-available-fuel-cells/
I've been watching developments along these lines closely.
Well, that's great if you have a NG connection :facepalm:
They keep using that word "off-grid". I don't think it means what they think it means. :lol:
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http://www.forbes.com/sites/williampentland/2013/08/14/redox-power-plans-to-roll-out-dishwasher-sized-fuel-cells-that-cost-90-less-than-currently-available-fuel-cells/
I've been watching developments along these lines closely.
Interesting. I haven't followed fuel cells in a long time. I was looking at them not for use but as a stock investment in the early 2000's, but at the time there was a lot of hype and not a lot of concrete development, so I blew them off and haven't really followed their development since. I always thought the concept was really good, but execution at the time was not. When I first started reading about them, they reminded me of all the Science Fiction I had read with homes powered by nuclear fuel cells. :)
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I've looked into the Bloom products. I like the concept, and the tech, but for a company that's championing cost-competitive power it's sure not very open about the actual price of the units in a typical residential installation. That alone raises a bunch of red flags for me.
Brad
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I've looked into the Bloom products. I like the concept, and the tech, but for a company that's championing cost-competitive power it's sure not very open about the actual price of the units in a typical residential installation. That alone raises a bunch of red flags for me.
Brad
I've noticed that too. From other articles, I've seen estimations of around $20,000, not including installation.
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I've noticed that too. From other articles, I've seen estimations of around $20,000, not including installation.
So how would the NG cost compare to buying grid electric, assuming you had NG connection ???
And what would you do with the extra heat in the summer =|
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So how would the NG cost compare to buying grid electric, assuming you had NG connection ???
And what would you do with the extra heat in the summer =|
Absorption Chiller? Of course, that wouldn't be cheap.
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A follow-up article in the WSJ about the tremendous lead time, cost and shipping time to replace power transformers, and how the grid could be crippled by taking them out. Yikes.
Just in case any potential terrorists were wondering how effective that would be.
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Do they log that? Most smaller transformers in plants just have over pressure and maybe low level switches.
They can log what ever they want to set up to be monitored.
In the buildings I work among other things we monitor for building temp hi and low, fire, smoke, commercial AC, voltage at the regulators and inverters, state of battery discharge, door open sensors, status of cable air pressure systems...
All that and more in addition to equipment alarms and QOS on the data network.
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Just in case any potential terrorists were wondering how effective that would be.
Because of all the terrorists who eagerly await the Wall Street Journal to tell them how to be terrorists.
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Because of all the terrorists who eagerly await the Wall Street Journal to tell them how to be terrorists.
(Bumping the story as this is appropriate)
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/report-power-grid-threats-mishandled
Whether they were waiting for it or not, our intrepid federal government mishandled similar information at the threats posed at specific locations.
Instead of dealing with the issues and protecting those locations, they've made them public....
Eh, close enough for government work. (Who's taking odds on how many people get fired for this? I've got 0 in the pool.)
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Because of all the terrorists who eagerly await the Wall Street Journal to tell them how to be terrorists.
I doubt many of them are eagerly awaiting the next issue of Disco World either, but I'd bet if it included a centerfold with detailed Pentagon blueprints, camera and sensor locations, patrol schedules and weakest points, they'd find out about it and add that to their library of potential attacks.
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http://seattletimes.com/html/businesstechnology/2023453804_gridsecurityxml.html
The grid can be brought down in many other ways that don't involve shooting at the transformers. Wouldn't that be one of the quickest ways to disrupt our civilization: impacting the electrical grid for a period of time.
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The real question they should investigate is where did the terrists find 100 rounds of ammo to buy? :P =D
Not a problem, unless it's .22 rimfire.
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http://seattletimes.com/html/businesstechnology/2023453804_gridsecurityxml.html
The grid can be brought down in many other ways that don't involve shooting at the transformers. Wouldn't that be one of the quickest ways to disrupt our civilization: impacting the electrical grid for a period of time.
Yes. I'm amazed it hasn't happened yet. My guess is its not "glamorous" enough of a target.
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Yes. I'm amazed it hasn't happened yet. My guess is its not "glamorous" enough of a target.
Americans can't watch crappily produced of jihadis taking credit for such an attack if the tv doesn't work.
Terror works better when people witness a few broadcasted brutal deaths than several million deaths that iccyr when the comms are down.