Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: Balog on February 18, 2014, 05:03:23 PM
-
http://newsok.com/update-man-dies-friday-night-while-being-handcuffed-at-moore-theater/article/3934187
Hard to know what really happened. Not clear from any article I can find if he was already in handcuffs when the lethal blows were delivered, or if he got hurt prior to being restrained. Supposedly cell phone video which the cops are not releasing. I'll need to see the video to know exactly what happened.
ETA: and 2 of the 5 guys involved were off duty game wardens? WTH?
-
Sounds like these were mall ninjas, some of whom were off duty cops. http://themooredaily.com/news/mother-daughter-talk-about-warren-theater-tragedy
-
Obviously the guy had it coming or the cops wouldn't have needed to "tune him up" [/csd]
-
Not even close to enough info in that article to try and figure out what happened.
Regardless it's a tragic for the family.
-
In the first interviews I saw the family story skipped over what happened between the cops asking for id and to them rolling him over dead. Atvthe time I found that curious. Apparently the narrative has been revised
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk
-
Moore tragedy. Aren't F5 tornadoes enough? :facepalm:
-
At least it wasn't another fatal atomic wedgie (http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2014/01/man-allegedly-kills-stepdad-with-atomic-wedgie/).
-
I agree that there is not enough information. I would expect there were more witnesses also.
-
I agree that there is not enough information. I would expect there were more witnesses also.
i would love to see video
-
Moore tragedy. Aren't F5 tornadoes enough? :facepalm:
Same parking lot, too.
-
i would love to see video
as long as it isn't one of those heavily edited versions.
One reason I hate TV news media sometimes. They will talk for several minutes about a controversial video, but can't bring themselves to show more than a few seconds of material that fites the narrative.
-
One reason I hate TV news media sometimes. They will talk for several minutes about a controversial video, but can't bring themselves to show more than a few seconds of material that fites the narrative.
Why would they report the truth, or show the truth on video, when they can spin it and/or outright lie in order to push their opinion?
-
Not getting much play in the rest of the state.
I suspect this will get more air time ove here on the east side
http://www.newson6.com/story/24774733/chouteau-man-suffered-head-injury-leaning-out-of-moving-car (http://www.newson6.com/story/24774733/chouteau-man-suffered-head-injury-leaning-out-of-moving-car)
-
Is he going to pay for the mail box ??? :P
-
Is he going to pay for the mail box ??? :P
I think you mean, is the mail box's owner going to be sued, for putting it in his way?
-
I can tell you from experience, that if your attempt to arrest someone for D&D ends up with the subject dead, you have some way, somehow royally screwed the pooch.
Unless this "investigation" results in charges being filed against the officer(s) involved, it's a whitewashing, not an investigation.
-
I can tell you from experience, that if your attempt to arrest someone for D&D ends up with the subject dead, you have some way, somehow royally screwed the pooch.
Unless this "investigation" results in charges being filed against the officer(s) involved, it's a whitewashing, not an investigation.
how many folks dying while being arrested did you experience?
-
I'm wondering, but will probably never know, if he was hogtied. Looked like a pretty heavy-set person, which body-type does not breathe well in hogtied restraint.
-
I'm wondering, but will probably never know, if he was hogtied. Looked like a pretty heavy-set person, which body-type does not breathe well in hogtied restraint.
yea. even untied someone on your back can fubar you particularly if your breathing is otherwise compromised
-
how many folks dying while being arrested did you experience?
And what conclusion would you draw from "few/none" answer? From a "many/lots" answer?
I don't think this is one of those metrics where a larger number is indicative of mastery of craft/technique.
-
And what conclusion would you draw from "few/none" answer? From a "many/lots" answer?
I don't think this is one of those metrics where a larger number is indicative of mastery of craft/technique.
i was thinking it was indicative of experience. since he was saying "let me tell you from experience"
-
i was thinking it was indicative of experience. since he was saying "let me tell you from experience"
So having killed someone is the only valid experience for an opinion on a homicide ???
Lots of judges and juries are DQ'ed :P
-
Are judges and jurys claiming to have experience?
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk
-
That "experience" could be from prosecuting the arresting officer (like that ever happens) or from being said officer's supervisor.
Or maybe he used "experience" a little loosely, and he's talking about arresting multiple D&D's *without* killing them in the process.
Question for C&SD:
Just curious: if it was "Sheriff Joe" that killed an arrestee, and that's all the facts-not-in-dispute that we had, would it still be justified?
-
That "experience" could be from prosecuting the arresting officer (like that ever happens) or from being said officer's supervisor.
Or maybe he used "experience" a little loosely, and he's talking about arresting multiple D&D's *without* killing them in the process.
Question for C&SD:
Just curious: if it was "Sheriff Joe" that killed an arrestee, and that's all the facts-not-in-dispute that we had, would it still be justified?
things can go south real fast in a struggle.
and at this point without seeing video sheriff joe would get a pass. not enough info yet.not all the folks joes minions killed were crimes. just a bit over the average.and once that happens folks look at all the dead folks with more suspicion
-
That "experience" could be from prosecuting the arresting officer (like that ever happens) or from being said officer's supervisor.
Or maybe he used "experience" a little loosely, and he's talking about arresting multiple D&D's *without* killing them in the process.
Remember who you're talking to here ;)
I have a lot of experience dropping trees but so far have never dropped one on a pickup, so I apparently can't criticize anyone who does. =|
-
Remember who you're talking to here ;)
I have a lot of experience dropping trees but so far have never dropped one on a pickup, so I apparently can't criticize anyone who does. =|
with your experience could you critique how that tree was dropped without seeing it?
how?
-
with your experience could you critique how that tree was dropped without seeing it?
how?
If it hit a pickup, I can say with near certainty that somebody goofed :P
(unless it says "USFS" on the side >:D =D )
-
If it hit a pickup, I can say with near certainty that somebody goofed :P
(unless it says "USFS" on the side >:D =D )
is it the cutter? or the guy who drove up and parked his pickup?
-
is it the cutter? or the guy who drove up and parked his pickup?
Some guy just walked where I was about to shoot :angel:
-
is it the cutter? or the guy who drove up and parked his pickup?
somebody means somebody. Take your pick and we can discuss how a goof might have happened.
I agree these cops probably get a pass without evidence they did anything wrong. If the video disappears, that might change things or at least my opinion.
-
Just to clarify, I spent 4+ years on active duty as an MP officer. We (myself and my soldiers) were trained on how to obtain and maintain cooperation from those ill-inclined to cooperate. None of those techniques involved killing the subject.
And do keep in mind that most of our subjects were 18-21 year old young men who had been highly trained in the art of killing and exceptionally physically fit. Throw in a high level of testosterone, a marked lack of available females (12+ to 1 male to female ratio in the local area), enough money to purchase large quantities of German Beer and Liquor and you have the perfect recipe for a large number of D&D's on any given night, but especially Saturdays and Sundays. Even worse is when they've just come back from a couple of months in the field or the Brits visiting the MTA.
Never once did we have cause such harm in ensuring there detention that they needed hospitalization for any injuries we inflicted. (Some did need hospitalization as a result of the mutual combat they had engaged in prior to the MP's arrival), most required nothing more than band-aids to simply time. See we learned how to subdue violent offenders by using the minimum use of force (generally words were most effective), and "come-alongs". Techniques to cause discomfort to induce cooperation.
Hence my statement. "If your attempt to arrest someone for D&D ends up with the subject dead, you have some way, somehow, royally screwed the pooch."
-
None of those techniques involved killing the subject.
So you are not qualified to judge this situation [/csd] =D
-
See we learned how to subdue violent offenders by using the minimum use of force (generally words were most effective), and "come-alongs". Techniques to cause discomfort to induce cooperation.
It's funny; I keep hearing stories from cops about how the drunks just won't feel the pain, but I've personally watched a retired deputy get a guy who could barely stand to cooperate fully with a properly applied wrist lock. Then again, that was the same deputy who complained that he had to qualify annually with the gun he drew 4 times in a 25 year career, but only once with the PR-24 that he used at least three or four times a week. He did get the sheriff to spring for occasional training though, since his "difficult" arrests tended to end up with mild bruises that healed in jail, rather than the other deputies' tendency to hospitalize them with broken bones and such.
Personally, I can't imagine being drunk enough to fight a 6'7" stocky guy with a gun and a club, but I guess the PR-24 doesn't look as big in his hands.
-
And were these folks similarly trained and also supervised by officers?
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/report-108-died-in-us-custody/
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk
-
I know from the other end of the billy club no one messed with mp's if smart cause you got hurt if you did. And I don't think thats a bad thing. That same tude would be poorly recieved in the nonuniformed world. The biggest edge I give military cops is in how they handle the mentally ill. It was obvious that they were way better at it. And the underlying brotherhood didn't hurt either. Generally being in much better shape is s great asset as well
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk
-
Ironically my comparison groups were the cops on Andrews afb vs prince georges county md police. They distinguished themselves as tge most trigger happy in the usa during those days and they were much less scary than base cops.
These folks slso trained and supervised by officers?
http://rokdrop.com/2012/07/17/us-military-police-in-south-korea-will-no-longer-carry-firearms-on-town-patrols/
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk
-
and heres a perspective from a guy with a different level and amount of "experience" than scout that seems apropos
SAME DIFFERENCE
Even with all their experience, however, MPs who have made the transition to civilian law enforcement find that being a cop can be quite different than being in the military.
Spreine learned that as he began to patrol the streets of San Clemente, Calif., in 1970.
"When I was interacting with young Marines as a Marine MP, they were very obedient," he says. "When an MP tells a Marine to do something they do it. Rank doesn't really matter; if you are an MP with the rank of sergeant and you're dealing with a general, he is still required to listen to you. But citizens were a little different."
That was due in large part to the fact that he became a police officer just as the Vietnam War began to wind down. It was an era that was not particularly cop-friendly, and he soon learned that many citizens didn't necessarily look at officers as authority figures. As a matter of fact, plenty of them had an outright disdain for cops.
"It was even more difficult at that time because we had the hippies and the yippies and the free love generation," he says. "They didn't listen well and they didn't like anything that was 'government.' I thought I had it all together coming from the Marine Corps into this profession called law enforcement, but I found out it was night and day."
As Spreine's experiences indicate, however, the differences between civilian and military duty often have more to do with the day-to-day dealings with civilians, rather than the organizations themselves. As entities, their structures are very much the same.
http://www.policemag.com/channel/careers-training/articles/2007/11/how-do-i-go-from-mp-to-cop.aspx
-
And were these folks similarly trained and also supervised by officers?
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/report-108-died-in-us-custody/
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk
Apples and Potatoes.
These are battlefield captures, who may or may not have been wounded/injured in said fight. Had there been any instances of detainee abuse, those involved would have been hammered for it. Plus it doesn't breakdown those from natural causes, disease, Plus given the huge numbers we've detained only losing 108 shows that we've provided excellent care and treatment to included medical care.
This isn't Achmed going down to the Casbah, tying on a few and then getting belligerent with the Sheriff who won't let him drive his camel back to his tent. Generally, when these guys scream "You ain't taken me alive copper!!" They pretty much mean it.
And then your other article. Most of the come-along techniques were developed in the late 60's early 70's in response to the protests and riots that swept this country. Over time they were improved and refined. Any office that doesn't know them now was either asleep during that portion of their Police Academy or willfully ignorant.
Plus yes, dealing with military personnel is different then dealing with civilians. You can get away with a whole lot more as an MP then you can a civilian.
-
And let's be perfectly clear here. What you are saying is that despite having Nightsticks, Tasers, Pepper Spray, and a 4-1 advantage (plus Motorola if they needed more help), you are perfectly okay with police executing a man on the street, in broad daylight, in front of his family, for what is generally considered to be a misdeamor?
Is that what you really mean?
Because I have a real hard time accepting that idea.
-
These are battlefield captures,
er no not all of them we ended up releasing many of those who made it all the way to gitmo after investigating some were turned in for the 30 pieces of silver or to settle scores
Had there been any instances of detainee abuse, those involved would have been hammered for it.
er no again heck they took pictures and there was a pretty decent cover up for a while. in fact the o corps covered up pretty good. to the end
Plus given the huge numbers we've detained only losing 108 shows that we've provided excellent care and treatment to included medical care.
how many hundreds of thousands are arrested without getting hurt every year by civilian cops? how do those percentages compare?
And then your other article. Most of the come-along techniques were developed in the late 60's early 70's in response to the protests and riots that swept this country. Over time they were improved and refined. Any office that doesn't know them now was either asleep during that portion of their Police Academy or willfully ignorant.
over time many of those techniques get outlawed when folks get their panties in a wad when someone cries
Plus yes, dealing with military personnel is different then dealing with civilians. You can get away with a whole lot more as an MP then you can a civilian.
on this we agree
-
you are perfectly okay with police executing a man on the street, in broad daylight, in front of his family, for what is generally considered to be a misdeamor?
is that a strawman?
this is executing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Gun_Ri_Massacre
what happened in the op was a fight where one man died
your characterization of it as an execution with the available info and not having seen the video speaks to your issues way more than any the cops may or may not have.
his wifes early interviews were peculiar. she had nothing to say about what happened after the cops asked for id. she skipped over that and went to they rolled him over and i knew he was dead. i found/find that most peculiar.
-
Some video has been released:
http://photographyisnotacrime.com/2014/02/25/confiscated-video-showing-oklahoma-cops-killing-man-released/ (http://photographyisnotacrime.com/2014/02/25/confiscated-video-showing-oklahoma-cops-killing-man-released/)
Apparently the cell phone had been returned after being "confiscated" by the police.
-
you see an execution? cops raging outa control?
or reading the story under the video see the alleged beating after he was handcuffed?
i wonder what autopsy will show.
and the movie theatre cams might be enlightening.
i don't see anything chargeable yet but i'm no expert from the uniformed end of that.
-
Yes, it's interesting that the video starts after the alleged resistance ended. No, I don't see any of the things you mention. Mention in a rather inflammatory way I might add. The cop on his back saying "calm down sir" as the man laid there unconscious, or perhaps already dead, was a nice touch.
-
And yet if we are to believe the narrative he was beaten after being cuffed.did I miss that? Did it seem like he was already cuffed when video started?
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk
-
http://newsok.com/update-man-dies-friday-night-while-being-handcuffed-at-moore-theater/article/3934187
Hard to know what really happened. Not clear from any article I can find if he was already in handcuffs when the lethal blows were delivered, or if he got hurt prior to being restrained. Supposedly cell phone video which the cops are not releasing. I'll need to see the video to know exactly what happened.
ETA: and 2 of the 5 guys involved were off duty game wardens? WTH?
-
Couple things struck me. One that he very well might have been dead when they vsat him up and if he was making them think he was resisting maybe he was actually thrashing as he died. If I got pepper sprayed and pinned like that it might well kill me. I don't breath well. Also noticed his size. He was right on the point where they use 2 cuffs so they don't rip shoulders outa sockets. If you pull on a guy that size the arm trys to pull back even if hes not actively resisting and depending on cops experience and adrenal dump he might miss that. Particularly if another cops is tugging on other arm it happens. Also wonder how much training and experience the game wardens had in that. One of the other interesting advantages mps have is they train as a team/unit and performance is much aided by that. Cops not so much and there is all too often not one guy clearly calling the shots in a fight. Gets worse when its mutiple agrncies snd the really f'd up thing is often its not the best/smarter guy who seizes control of a scene. Its kinda like asking for directions from a group. The guy least qualified is often the first to offer. Getting lost sucks. Getting dead is lots worse
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk
-
Watched this twice its his wife before she got a chance to see video. Painful to watch and at no point did I see anything to make me believe she was deliberately untruthful. dhe spoke well. I think that any discrepancy between her version and the video are due to traumatic experience. That she genuinely believes thats what she saw
http://m.newsok.com/video/3222747066001
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk
-
Had there been any instances of detainee abuse, those involved would have been hammered for it.
er no again heck they took pictures and there was a pretty decent cover up for a while. in fact the o corps covered up pretty good. to the end
Wrongo Bucko.
MG Ryder had finished his report in Nov 2003. CID was already investigating, and MG Taguba was completing his 15-6 investigation when the story broke in May 2004. Trust me, neither CID nor the US Army Provost Marshal General would have covered it up. MG Ryder was my Provost Marshal when I was in Germany and I went to MPOB and also served in Germany with Maj. David DiNenna. I can guarandamntee there was no attempt a cover up by either of those two.
how many hundreds of thousands are arrested without getting hurt every year by civilian cops? how do those percentages compare?
You tell me. You threw this turd in punch bowl. As I pointed out, you are comparing Apples to Potatoes with this "factoid".
on this we agree
Actually, no, we don't. The rules of evidence and how persons are confined and processed are completely different. All of which is subject to the UCMJ, which for example, can be used to compel a witness (again someone subject to the UCMJ) to testify. You can't do that to a civilian. Also lie detector tests are used and are admissible in a Courts Marshal, but practically nowhere in civilian trials.
And no that's not a strawman. However, No Gun Ri, is.
My experience was in peacetime, not war, therefore your "analogies" are false. My experience is practically the same as in this situation.
One individual being Drunk and Disorderly. Now barring some major medical event in that individual, THERE IS NO REASON FOR HIM TO HAVE BEEN KILLED.
Which is the point you seem to miss entirely in this thread and every other, is that the amount of force and utter lack of restraint by many cops is getting way out of hand. Neither is there an repercussions or punishment for it. The police have begun to view the public as the enemy, and not those they were sworn to protect.
-
One individual being Drunk and Disorderly. Now barring some major medical event in that individual, THERE IS NO REASON FOR HIM TO HAVE BEEN KILLED.
he wasn't drunk that anyone has claimed so far. and yea there is that pesky medical issue thing. its amongst the reasons that calling it and execution and bleating that is someone isn't charged is at best premature.
seen the video?
what would you have done different than they were doing?
-
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Investigation/story?id=131658
a jag one star tile crawler was the one who first called it a coverup in front of me. he said that officers, or "slimy creatures" was his exact term were letting lower ranks pay when they should have been held responsible. he was involved in defending one of the mp's
http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2004/05/10/040510fa_fact?currentPage=all
the thin green line investigating itself?
bold mine
A month later, General Karpinski was formally admonished and quietly suspended, and a major investigation into the Army’s prison system, authorized by Lieutenant General Ricardo S. Sanchez, the senior commander in Iraq, was under way. A fifty-three-page report, obtained by The New Yorker, written by Major General Antonio M. Taguba and not meant for public release, was completed in late February. Its conclusions about the institutional failures of the Army prison system were devastating. Specifically, Taguba found that between October and December of 2003 there were numerous instances of “sadistic, blatant, and wanton criminal abuses” at Abu Ghraib. This systematic and illegal abuse of detainees, Taguba reported, was perpetrated by soldiers of the 372nd Military Police Company, and also by members of the American intelligence community. (The 372nd was attached to the 320th M.P. Battalion, which reported to Karpinski’s brigade headquarters.)
and if calling in air strikes on civilians isn't an execution then what do you call it?
-
any of you local folks know about this lawyer? legit? or a quannel x wannabe?
-
So what's the tldr version? The guy wound up dead, which is unfortunate. But is there any evidence that the cops did anything unreasonable?
-
real evidence? there is a video that was supposed to be a smoking gun but its not fulfilling any hopes dreams and fantasies. we are told there may be video from theatre surveillance cams but its not out yet. the video so far does not support the early narrative but i can't fault the poor wife shes pretty messed up over it and i don't believe shes deliberately untruthful.
-
Any word on the cause of death?
-
depends who you ask. on one front its an execution and if no ones charged its a coverup
and then there are those who still await the autopsy report
take your pick
-
No autopsy yet? The original news article is dated 1/17. How long does it take to do an autopsy in OK?
Edit: Oh, wait, I'm stupid. Article is dated Feb 15. Still, that's 10 days ago. Shouldn't that be enough time get an official cause of death from the coroner?
-
No autopsy yet? The original news article is dated 1/17. How long does it take to do an autopsy in OK?
Edit: Oh, wait, I'm stupid. Article is dated Feb 15. Still, that's 10 days ago. Shouldn't that be enough time get an official cause of death from the coroner?
toxicology tests are the fly in the ointment around here. they are always backlogged not sure about there. and they may not release report piece meal. might get it all at once
-
Just looked at the video.
Sort of a cross between the Monty Python Dead Parrot Sketch ("He's just pining for the fjords") and a snuff film.
Yeah, and the cops knew he was dead while he was still on the ground. "Calm down sir" to a motionless meat sack? Right. Every time I have wrestled someone to the ground, there has been a whole lot of heavy breathing, even after they gave up. I presume this is not those cops first take down, so they will know the score.
And the cop doing his best to block video of the whole deal and also making threats to distract the wife from both taking video and noticing her husband is dead...priceless. What a fine example of ass covering and sociopathy.
-
So what's the tldr version? The guy wound up dead, which is unfortunate. But is there any evidence that the cops did anything unreasonable?
The guy being dead. ;/
-
<<snip>>
Which is the point you seem to miss entirely in this thread and every other, is that the amount of force and utter lack of restraint by many cops is getting way out of hand. Neither is there an repercussions or punishment for it. The police have begun to view the public as the enemy, and not those they were sworn to protect.
QFT
I believe this is a natural result of giving precedence in the hiring process to vets. The primary purpose of armed services is to combat an enemy; without an enemy there is no reason for a standing army. Having an "us against them" attitude is so pervasive it seems to be hard-coded into human nature. It's extremely difficult for an individual, trained by our government to nurture that attitude, to include civilians as "us." It can be done, and it's easier for some than for others. Officers that perceive non-police as either criminals, or soon-to-be criminals, may very well be in the minority. However, until those that know better stop covering up the actions of their brethren that don't, nothing will change.
As I said, this is all perfectly natural and to be expected. We are all human after all. The only way to expect decency in others is by practicing it ourselves.
-
The guy being dead. ;/
People die all the time, cops or no cops. Even when people die in police custody it doesn't necessarily mean that the police are blameworthy.
Based on the excitement from folks here, I expected the video would show police out of control, wantonly abusing a man, beating him to death, executing him, screaming at everyone, threatening the wife, all sorts of nasty stuff. It shows none of that. It's possible that the police did all that and more prior to the video starting, but neither the video nor the news article provide any evidence.
Hence my question: is there any evidence that the police did anything wrong? I admit, I didn't wade into the story all that deeply, so that evidence may well exist. I dunno. But call me crazy, I kinda want to see some evidence of serious wrongdoing before I get outraged.
-
Heck if they had hit him at all after cuffing him that would at least give wife credibility. Watch the varioys video interviews and the ever changing story. I don't blame her for being upset. If I started some *expletive deleted*it and my old man ended up dead it would screw me up too
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk
-
a lil reality
guy was still alive at hospital
and look what familys lawyer is now saying
http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/news/2014/03/01/oklahoma-man-dies-while-in-police-custody-family-says-it-was-brutality/
-
a lil reality
guy was still alive at hospital
and look what familys lawyer is now saying
http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/news/2014/03/01/oklahoma-man-dies-while-in-police-custody-family-says-it-was-brutality/
The officers wrote they were trying to place him in investigative detention until they could find his identification
So that's what they're calling it nowadays . . .
-
so now the familys lawyers backing up
and soon we get theater vid and autopsy
i am waiting for the first post now about the homeless angel in new mexico that got drt
-
This is still getting more "air time" on APS than it is here in Oklahoma.
-
This is still getting more "air time" on APS than it is here in Oklahoma.
not too surprising. The theatre vid should be interesting. And autopsy will give a clue as to cod
-
Autopsy
http://personalliberty.com/medical-examiner-rules-death-of-ok-man-in-police-custody-a-homicide/
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk
-
Latest. Investigation is over. Decision on actions pending. Wife's lawyers statement is interesting and theatre vid should be forthcoming. http://www.mooreamerican.com/local/x1760089742/OSBI-hands-over-findings-to-county-DA-regarding-death-of-Luis-Rodriguez-at-theater
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
Hmmm, ruled a homicide, and case referred to DA to file charges.
Which means he was killed/executed/murdered by the police. It'll be interesting to see what the DA does.
-
Homicide does not equal murder. I suspect though that weather or not this is really murder there will be no charges filed and the DA will rule it as justifiable. After all the cops got to go home at the end of the day.
-
Watched the video. Er, if you want a person to survive, it's not a wise idea to have that much force on the torso. While not guaranteed to kill someone, it's not unlikely. Grinding someone's face into the concrete is actually more healthy, unless you are putting force on their neck. I've seen videos of police putting knees on necks, which is also a good way to crush a larynx or cause other damage.
For this situation?
With five available persons, ONE person should assume command.
He or she should give all orders in a clear manner.
He or she should assign one person per limb, more or less.
Suspect should only be shoved to ground long enough to restrain
Suspect should then be sat up, stood up or turned onto side. Side is preferable if the person cannot or should not stand.
The suspect should examined medically and searched for weapons. With five persons, both can be be done simultaneously: one for medical, one for weapons, three for crowd control. If there is no extra help, medical should be done in a rapid manner (pulse and breathing), then weapon checked, and then more comprehensively medically checked.
IF suspect is not breathing or has no pulse, person in command should detail two persons to begin CPR and a third person to immediately call for medical assistance. Command person and spare should handle crowd control, ground guide medical persons and handle additional persons of interest as necessary. This should be continued until medical personnel arrive, then all five officers should go to crowd control.
Regardless of anyone's feelings on whether this homicide was criminally negligent, it was deeply and troublingly professionally negligent. Assuming there is no criminal charges, they should be yanked from service until they are retrained and certified as such. The training needs to be reviewed. If it was good and the officers negligent, they should be appropriately punished for failure to follow procedures. If it was bad, training officer and chief should be punished more than the officers.
Scout, any flaws in the above mentioned opinion?
-
That pretty well sums it up.
It's clear that was excessive violence used on the man. Police need to go back to using their brains and mouths more to talk out the situation instead of going "hands-on" to quickly end the situation and get back to doing nothing in a squad car.
Most police have forgotten the "Everyone" part of "To Protect and Serve". They forget they are working for each individual person and not The State/City/County, etc.
But yes, good officers can quickly and easily diffuse a situation with a soft voice and calm words. Normally entails much less paperwork also.
-
Punished? As is agency diciplines them. No. Criminal charges for the entire bunch.
Watched the video. Er, if you want a person to survive, it's not a wise idea to have that much force on the torso. While not guaranteed to kill someone, it's not unlikely. Grinding someone's face into the concrete is actually more healthy, unless you are putting force on their neck. I've seen videos of police putting knees on necks, which is also a good way to crush a larynx or cause other damage.
For this situation?
With five available persons, ONE person should assume command.
He or she should give all orders in a clear manner.
He or she should assign one person per limb, more or less.
Suspect should only be shoved to ground long enough to restrain
Suspect should then be sat up, stood up or turned onto side. Side is preferable if the person cannot or should not stand.
The suspect should examined medically and searched for weapons. With five persons, both can be be done simultaneously: one for medical, one for weapons, three for crowd control. If there is no extra help, medical should be done in a rapid manner (pulse and breathing), then weapon checked, and then more comprehensively medically checked.
IF suspect is not breathing or has no pulse, person in command should detail two persons to begin CPR and a third person to immediately call for medical assistance. Command person and spare should handle crowd control, ground guide medical persons and handle additional persons of interest as necessary. This should be continued until medical personnel arrive, then all five officers should go to crowd control.
Regardless of anyone's feelings on whether this homicide was criminally negligent, it was deeply and troublingly professionally negligent. Assuming there is no criminal charges, they should be yanked from service until they are retrained and certified as such. The training needs to be reviewed. If it was good and the officers negligent, they should be appropriately punished for failure to follow procedures. If it was bad, training officer and chief should be punished more than the officers.
Scout, any flaws in the above mentioned opinion?
-
Punished? As is agency diciplines them. No. Criminal charges for the entire bunch.
How about federal "Deprived of rights under color of law" charges? (I can't remember the number) That could carry the death penalty here. I don't think they would actually /get/ the death penalty, but it needs to be on the table.
-
She will be lucky to get anything over the sympathetic jury settlement. And that's only cause insurance companies fon't gamble
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk
-
Punished? As is agency diciplines them. No. Criminal charges for the entire bunch.
Tis why I said "assuming no criminal charges".
It was a training failure from the looks of the video. If they were subject to normal criminal proceedings and didn't have qualified immunity, they'd be charged with Involuntary manslaughter as there was no malice aforethought (ie they weren't trying to kill the guy, as opposed to killing the guy in the heat of the moment or a fit of rage). Specifically, criminally negligent manslaughter. "omission to act when there is a duty to do so, or a failure to perform a duty owed, which leads to a death."
For the military, if you are detaining a person, you have a duty to ensure the welfare of said detainee ABOVE YOUR OWN SELF. So, if you cuff or hogtie or even sit on a person, and they suffocate to death, you committed criminally negligent manslaughter. I know civilian police are given substantial leeway, but I sincerely doubt the courts have ruled that the police have no duty to act when it comes to saving the life of a person they have detained.
Qualified immunity is a tough nut to crack. Most folks don't try. Suing the department on the other hand, while less satisfying, is substantially easier. So, yes, likely she will get a settlement from the department's insurance company. Said insurance company will be the stick that drives the reform by demanding that said department has adequate training on (amongst other things) how to detain a person without killing them. IMHO, that's probably the largest driver of training improvement of American police departments. Losing lawsuits, and insurance companies demanding SOP changes to save money on future settlements.
It's a bad system, but it's the only common one we have. The other measures (politically imposed moderation, civilian review boards, 'reform', etc) are sporadic at best.
-
More reason than ever to restrict, severely restrict, civilian LE immunity and mandate DA pursuing criminal charges.