Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: Ben on March 15, 2014, 04:05:06 PM
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If there is not WAY more to this story than what is at the link, then the law is an ass.
http://dailycaller.com/2014/03/12/the-dc-interviews-jordan-wiser-the-teen-facing-jail-for-owning-a-pocketknife/
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I wonder what charges they are trying to file. Unless there is a big piece we are missing, no felony seems like it could possibly stick.
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Heads should roll. :mad:
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School administrators are wonderful people...
At least at my college you were looked at funny if you didnt have a folder clipped to your front pocket. We all had guns in our cars too (legally!)
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Yeah, that is an odd story. I am surprised that hasn't already gotten spread around if it is as bad as it appears.
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Wonder if the kid knows enough to contact FIRE instead of ACLU?
If he was under 18 on the day the Principal did what he did, the courts probably will let him get away with it. If the kid was over 18 then there ought to be hell to pay.
stay safe.
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In a tech school? I could walk in and find hundreds of better weapons in the classrooms.
My two knifes I carry all the time are work tools first, defense second. I have them on me everywhere I go.
I did some service work at a federal courthouse. I walked in with my tool bag, sent it into the x-ray. And then got asked if I had any weapons on me? WTF? I could use any of the 3 knifes you just let through in the bag or maybe the pipe wrench or one of the many screwdrivers.
Common sense is so dead in this country I'm thinking about forming my own country right here and calling it Jimfuastain. Kind of like Petoria but with more beer. So I'll have another beer. =(
jim
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Reading the linked story . . . things sure have changed since I was in school - especially the part about the administrator patting down/feeling up the kid, apparently with NO police officer present. In my day, THAT would have resulted in injury to the admin. (And depending on the details, possibly the filing of sexual battery charges as well.)
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Went to an OKC Thunder game a few weeks ago and they said my folder was too big. Took it out and put it on the bus we came down on in. Talking to the bus driver about what was up, we both got a chuckle about the fact I could do just as much if not more damage with the keys I had in my pocket or the boots I was wearing. That doesn't count the countless other "weapons" I could find in an arena.
:facepalm:
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When I was working for Decision 1 many years ago I had occaisson to be on the shipping dock with the shipping manager. I pulled out my little Case Stockman pattern pocket knife and cut the strapping tape to open a box.
I guess I scared the shipping manager and she reported me to my manager that I was carrying a "huge" razor sharp knife around while at work.
A few minutes later my boss called me into his office. She didn't report me as having a pocket knife, it was a "huge knife/weapon". Come to find out I was a hair away from a "weapons in the work place" termintation. My boss asked me about the knife I was packing so I showed it to him. He did a face palm and called the shipping manager in. She verified that the knife in question was indeed the HUGE knife that I had been carrying.
My manager dug into his pocket and pulled out his pocket knife which was also a Case Stockman pattern but his was the next larger size.
I found out later that my boss, the shipping manager and the facility director hd a looong chat about such things later that day. She never had much to say to me ater that.
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When I was working for Decision 1 many years ago I had occaisson to be on the shipping dock with the shipping manager. I pulled out my little Case Stockman pattern pocket knife and cut the strapping tape to open a box.
I guess I scared the shipping manager and she reported me to my manager that I was carrying a "huge" razor sharp knife around while at work.
A few minutes later my boss called me into his office. She didn't report me as having a pocket knife, it was a "huge knife/weapon". Come to find out I was a hair away from a "weapons in the work place" termintation. My boss asked me about the knife I was packing so I showed it to him. He did a face palm and called the shipping manager in. She verified that the knife in question was indeed the HUGE knife that I had been carrying.
My manager dug into his pocket and pulled out his pocket knife which was also a Case Stockman pattern but his was the next larger size.
I found out later that my boss, the shipping manager and the facility director hd a looong chat about such things later that day. She never had much to say to me ater that.
Sounds like something my work would say. Strict no weapons policy. Security manager saw a kershaw chive clipped to my pocket one day and gave me the winkwinknudgenudge I didn't see it because I shouldn't have seen it mention as he passed by one day.
This is the same facility that hands box cutters out like candy to a few hundred different people.
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When I was working for Decision 1 many years ago
Sorry. I had no idea you were a short-bus kid. I'll try to keep that in mind in the future. :P
I did have to chew my boss out last week when he left his Glock 19 on my desk. Mainly because it looked like it hadn't been cleaned in months and there was enough lint in the recoil spring that I had to brush it out to get it back in place after I field stripped the silly piece of Tupperware.
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I go to a local community college where I've been learning HVAC among other things.
EVERYONE in the HVAC, Automotive, Electrical, Welding, Rail Road, EMT and plenty of other programs carries a pocket knife plainly clipped to a pocket. Professors and students alike. And more then a few people have concealed pistols.
I never carried a pocket knife in high school, on school grounds that is. But once I graduated, I never stop carrying one.
That said, I think it's another cultural divide thing. I now work in an office with a lot of white collar folks who came from white collar backgrounds. The idea of carrying a pocket knife is very foreign to most of them. It's simply not something they've had exposure to in their day to day life.
Common sense is so dead in this country I'm thinking about forming my own country right here and calling it Jimfuastain. Kind of like Petoria but with more beer. So I'll have another beer. =(
Citizenship application plz! ;)
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Sorry. I had no idea you were a short-bus kid. I'll try to keep that in mind in the future. :P
I did have to chew my boss out last week when he left his Glock 19 on my desk. Mainly because it looked like it hadn't been cleaned in months and there was enough lint in the recoil spring that I had to brush it out to get it back in place after I field stripped the silly piece of Tupperware.
I was working for Memorex-Telex when they finally went down the drain the final time. We were bought out by D1. Our operation was a repair facility. We did component level repair on quite a bit of enterprise equipment from mono-chrome monitors, big high speed line printers, dumbd terminals and such as well as Some higher end stuff like Fujitsu ATLs. We also had a laptop repair depot operation where we were doing warranty repair for half a dozen brands. I was the lead tech in the laptop operation when D1 opted to shut us down and move our operation to Richardson TX. I kind of declined to train my replacement and took another job elsewhere. I gave my notice and you would have thought I'd crapped on the boss's desk. They walked me out the door and I got 2 weeks pay.
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Reading the linked story . . . things sure have changed since I was in school - especially the part about the administrator patting down/feeling up the kid, apparently with NO police officer present. In my day, THAT would have resulted in injury to the admin. (And depending on the details, possibly the filing of sexual battery charges as well.)
I wondered the same thing. Why did this guy allow himself to be assaulted by someone else? There is no way I would let some administrator put his hands all over me. He did the right thing in refusing to give consent to the search of his car, but he should have been more forceful in refusing to let this idiot search his body.
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Citizenship application plz! ;)
Jim,
I'll take two !!!
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Something is not passing the smell test, but I don't know which side it is.
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I wondered the same thing. Why did this guy allow himself to be assaulted by someone else? There is no way I would let some administrator put his hands all over me. He did the right thing in refusing to give consent to the search of his car, but he should have been more forceful in refusing to let this idiot search his body.
He definitely should be pressing charges of whatever kind might stick.
As for "resisting arrest" by the vice principal, that would just play into the idea that he was violent. Probably should have done it anyway, I guess.
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i'm curious as to how the judge "freaked out", and what knowledge made him do so.
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I wonder what charges they are trying to file. Unless there is a big piece we are missing, no felony seems like it could possibly stick.
They are filing charges for carrying a deadly weapon in a school zone. I guess vocational/technical school must fall under school zone restrictions in Ohio.
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They are filing charges for carrying a deadly weapon in a school zone. I guess vocational/technical school must fall under school zone restrictions in Ohio.
The voc/tech school by me is owned and run by the local school district. There are other voc/tech colleges in the area that are not owned and run by a school district.
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They are filing charges for carrying a deadly weapon in a school zone. I guess vocational/technical school must fall under school zone restrictions in Ohio.
You are correct, Voc/Tech schools fall under Ohio Department of Education and are considered schools. I am somewhat surprised as to the reaction since that area is rural, though Ashtabula is a very Blue leaning county. This is the same county, which is the largest county in Ohio, that the sheriff has cut patrols back to 2 deputies at a time and has stated that people are going to have to protect themselves, IIRC.
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does a pocket knife count?
i suspect that some school admin got their thong twisted over seeing him pose with guns and once the "find something" juggernaut got momentum they had to get him or look like fools. the mentality is devoid of the ability to take a realistic appraisal of its actions
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Something is not passing the smell test, but I don't know which side it is.
That's what I was thinking.
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A lot smells bad here...
First, remember I'm an Ohio lawyer, so I know this law, very well. court records show he's charged with a violation of Revised Code 2923.122 It's a felony of the Fifth degree. Lowest level felony. Here's the statute...
http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.122
And here is the online court file;
http://courts.co.ashtabula.oh.us/eservices/?x=lsg4PkaduwUGEaiJyDPex3PwNB6C1JU2nA7YsPABKydyoCdgOpS3Bkl05XJ8dyBuz6vt1X7jsA4pTP6xaHh*ow
Now, nothing in his file shows any of the bond terms he's talking about, though the weapon restriction is pretty standard in felony bond, and may be a part of the pretrial program the record refers to. Interesting he was placed on a GPS unit. it appears that they are treating him as a potential school shooter kind of thing. But $500.000 bond is more than I see on many actual violent crimes or sex offenses.
Anyways, to be convicted under the statute, the State has to prove that the knife was a "deadly weapon"
http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.11
As you can see, deadly weapon is a 2 part definition. They have to prove (1) it was capable of causing death and (2) the item was designed/adapted, used, or carried as a weapon. the second part is the hang-up here. I can't find any description of the knife. Some knives are designed as weapons... butterfly/bali-song come to mind. Nothing says he used it as a weapon in any way. As for the carried as a weapon part, if it was truly with medic gear, I don't see how they will get a conviction. I have seen many cases where a kid has a knife at school, threatens someone with it, or makes statements about carrying the knife as a weapon (i.e.- See this blade? if Johnny messes with my girl again, I'm going to cut him.)
I don't know what he did to piss of a bunch of people here, but they look like they are all out to get him.
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heres a place to get a feel for the kid
https://www.youtube.com/user/ArmyRescue2?feature=watch
and remember kid can say anything he wants school is not allowed to say anything till it gets to court
another quirk is he was held in jail 13 days before bonding out. i have friends who stabbed someone and bonded out. there is more than meets eye here. it is possible its all on the school side though
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Chris, I am not familiar with the Ohio case law, but I would assume that any reasonably competent prosecutor can establish that just about any knife is a deadly weapon under both parts of the definition.
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Interesting information Chris.
I agree that this could go either way, depending what info is out there and accurate. However even if the kid is 100% in the right, and completely exonerated, it sounds like just the arrest record will have hosed him for the paths he wanted to take. Unless he gets the record expunged I guess, but the financial burden would be on him for that (unless he wins a lawsuit or something).
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Chris, I am not familiar with the Ohio case law, but I would assume that any reasonably competent prosecutor can establish that just about any knife is a deadly weapon under both parts of the definition.
Ohio law is a mess on the knife as a deadly weapon thing. City of Columbus v. Dawson (1986), 28 Ohio App.3d 45 held that a knife is not presumed by law to be a deadly weapon. To prevail on a CCW charge involving a knife, or something like the case in the OP, the State must prove beyond a reasonable doubt, either: “1) that the knife was designed or specifically adapted for use as a weapon or 2) that the defendant possessed, carried, or used the knife as a weapon.” State v. Cathel (1998),127 Ohio App.3d 408, 412.
Sounds good so far, but then it gets kind of murky. A judge in Pickaway County was quoted saying "The record is devoid of any evidence which demonstrates beyond a reasonable doubt that this knife was designed or adapted for use as a weapon. It was neither a switch or other spring-loaded blade, nor a gravity blade capable of instant one-handed operation, and differs only in its somewhat greater length from the familiar type of clasp knife carried as a useful tool by thousands." State v. Ratcliff (Oct. 26, 1983), Pickaway App. No. 82 CA 13. This sounds good, unless you are carrying a Spyderco, or an assisted opening knife. It worries me a bit.
IMHO, the best bet would be for counsel to argue that the knife was with rescue/medic gear, but at the same time file a motion in limine to exclude the two airsoft guns also found in the car, as well as the stun gun found in the car. The prosecutor might try to get all of that in as circumstantial evidence that the boy was carrying "weapons."
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Interesting information Chris.
I agree that this could go either way, depending what info is out there and accurate. However even if the kid is 100% in the right, and completely exonerated, it sounds like just the arrest record will have hosed him for the paths he wanted to take. Unless he gets the record expunged I guess, but the financial burden would be on him for that (unless he wins a lawsuit or something).
I need to double-check this, but I believe that the record may be immediately sealed and expunged if he is acquitted or the charges are dismissed.
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i suspect that some school admin got their thong twisted over seeing him pose with guns and once the "find something" juggernaut got momentum they had to get him or look like fools. the mentality is devoid of the ability to take a realistic appraisal of its actions
I would guess that's probably how it started.
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This kid had bond set at $500,000. I've got a guy coming in on a child custody case this morning. He's in jail for Agg. Robbery, Fel. Assault, Weapons under Disability, and 2 gun specifications for an incident in which a guy was shot and robbed. His bond is $250,000...
Yeah, something stinks in that kid's case.