Post by: Monkeyleg on September 15, 2006, 10:58:18 PM
Back in 1970 or so, my now-wife and I stopped dating each other, and saw other people.
She quickly became friends with two gay guys in her senior class.
While she was in the process of becoming best friends with Doug and Gary, I had met a young woman who was at the time majoring in acting at the university.
And all of her male friends in her classes were mostly gay.
Now, Milwaukee has pretty much always had a reputation as a hick city, with nowhere near the sophistication of a Chicago, or even a Minneapolis. It's a reputation that's been well-earned.
So, it shouldn't surprise anyone that the disco nightclub in the early 1970's was The Factory, a gay bar just south of the Milwaukee downtown area.
And, given all of the above, it shouldn't surprise anyone that I spent a lot of time sitting at the bar in gay nightclubs, while my girlfriends were out dancing with gay guys.
I can't dance. The last time I tried, I sprained my ankle.
Whatever.
I now live in an area that I can best describe as city/suburb, and heavily liberal/Democrat. And very much homophobic.
The last time I talked about gay bars with my neighbor (Mark), he visibly shuddered. I mean, he actually shook like a dog coming in after a long walk in the rain.
It's not my style to get into somebody's face. Instead, I said to my neighbor, "Mark, every guy wonders if he might have some gay tendencies. Here's how to check it out: go to a gay bar, sit at the bar, and wait for some really good-looking guys to come up and hit on you. If you feel something moving in your pants, you may not be 100% hetero. Got it?"
Mark hasn't talked to me much since then.
My wife still goes to the gay bars with her gay friends and gay relatives a few times a year. And I feel safer knowing that she's with some guys, rather than out with girlfriends. Much less threat to our marriage, and maybe a little more protection for her from the bad guys. (OK, unless they're members of Pink Pistols, maybe not that much more protection).
I'm going somewhere with all this, but it's a difficult question to frame.
Why is it that women like my wife, who will unashamedly call herself a "fag hag," are accepted within the gay male culture?
By contrast, a couple of our friends are lesbians (or, as my wife and I have now come to term them, "Lebanese girls").
I've been in lesbian bars many times, and every time I was made to feel like David Duke touring the Cabrini Green projects in Chicago. I was surprised that I didn't get knifed.
I don't understand the split between gay males and lesbians, nor the acceptance of "fag hags" like my wife by gay males. It just doesn't make sense.
I also don't understand why the gay rights movement is allowing the "freaks" to lead the parade.
My wife has become very close to her gay uncle, and over the years he's become a close friend of mine. He's been active in the gay rights movement for years and years.
And, everytime there's going to be a Gay Rights parade scheduled, I tell him the same thing: "Howie, don't put the heavy-leather, S&M crowd at the front of the parade. It's where the news cameras are going to go."
I might as well be talking to a potato, because the guys in all weird manner of leather harnesses and other inexplicable gear are at the very front of the parade.
And that's what gets broadcast on TV. Just like the camouflaged guys with the "Nuke 'em all now, and let God sort it out" hats get the focus of the TV cameras at any gun event.
This has been another of my long, rambling posts. So let me summarize by asking: a). why do gay males accept hetero females into their culture? b) why are some, if not most, hetero guys afraid to confront their own sexuality? c) why are "Lebanese women" hostile toward seemingly everyone? d) why have the leaders of the gay rights movement not learned to keep the leather-bound crowd away from the cameras?
And, lastly, why should I care?
Post by: James Fitzer on September 15, 2006, 11:16:12 PM
I'm a native californian, so maybe I can help with this one...
Gay males and hetero females get along great, or at least most do, because most have something in common. Style.
I take wine advice, fasion advice, and food advice from gay friends. So does a lot of America (Queer Eye)
A girlfriend of mine would never be able to have fun talking about wine with me. So she talked to my gay friend instead.
Hetero guys who are afraid to confront their own sexuality, in my experience, are scared that they might find out they have gay leanings, and that thought terrifies them. I've been to gay bars, and never had a problem being in one... but mention that to a lot of my friends, and the first thing out of their mouths is, "Are you gay?"
I can understand where the question comes from, because the natural assumption is that a man who has been to gay bars is gay himself. But a lot of times a good reason to go to one is to drink and have fun in a social setting without the negative vibes that happen when you pack a bunch of straight males into a bar, all competing for the same chicks. How often to brawls break out at gay bars?
As for lesbians... I have no idea. I can formulate a theory though, and I hope this doesnt offend anyone.
First, a lot of guys who hang out with lesbians, or talk to them, are secretly interested in either "turning" them, or having a threesome with two lesbians. Lesbians know this, so they're naturally leery of guys at a lesbian establishment.
The second is that I believe many lesbians have traditionally male habits and personality quirks, namely the jealousy and competition that males have. They might see you as a (however improbable) threat to them. If this isn't true, I invite a lesbian to point this out to me. it's just an observation I've made.
As for your last question... I refer you to Jeff Foxworthy: "Rednecks aren't all dumb... we just can't keep the most ignorant among us off the TV."
I'd venture to guess that media sensationalism is the biggest factor. And maybe the gay rights folk are shooting themselves in the foot a little. They want people to recognize their cause, so they put the leather-clad guys in front to capture the media's attention. Any speaker knows that an attention getter is imperitive to capturing an audience.
Is this a good idea? I dunno.
Post by: American By Blood on September 15, 2006, 11:28:05 PM
A little over a decade ago, Steve Sailer wrote an article where he contrasted gay and lesbian tendencies and suggested that male homosexuality is potentially largely genetic (thus less likely to be intertwined with "issues" about women) while female homosexuality is primarily social (hence the tendency to fit the "man hater" stereotype). If this is the case it could go a long way in explaining gay friendliness toward "fag hags" and lesbian attitudes toward men. There are, of course, many other factors at work.
Post by: Guest on September 16, 2006, 01:48:46 AM
Thefitzvh had it right. Women assume men are there for a cheap thrill. Because men tend to go there for a cheat thrill. And then act pissed off when the women look like..well, lesbians.
A lot of women do choose to be lesbians, as opposed to men who I think don't.
Some woman are gay because they dislike men, or for political reasons, although not all. But nearly all of them have thought a lot more about the dynamics between men and women than the average heterosexual woman which tends to make them more cranky. Be thankful more women don't think seriously about it. You'd find a lot of heterosexual women being grouchy about the whole thing.
FWIW, I'm not a lesbian because..well, because I'm not. But I can see why women would choose to do that. And I don't hate men personally (as in individual men) but I'm not thrilled with the whole interaction between the genders so I avoid them on a personal level.
Post by: 280plus on September 16, 2006, 02:35:13 AM
I guess what I'm driving at is I don't necessarily see all lesbians as men haters. Some, without a doubt, but not all. A lot of times I'd bet they were afraid you were going to hit on their girlfriends. They're a jealous lot let me tell you. I'd be willing to venture that some are far more aggresive than men when it comes to their women.
Post by: Trisha on September 16, 2006, 03:58:55 AM
I involuntarily blew bubbles in my coffee (really, REALLY busy night-morning with Rescue) visualizing the naivete. . .
Barbara, you've got it accurately as far as I'm concerned: and I think lots of straight women shy away from taking too close a look. Kathryn and I do our part to convert 'em as fast as we can. . . (I think it's only another eight and we qualify for the new Lexus!) There's making the "choice," to be sure, but there is a lot of self-acceptance blossoming these days, where women understand that what matters is loving the person, not just anatomy (well, not exclusively, you understand).
thefitzvh - no clue at all, eh? I recommend you read "And Then I Met This Woman" followed by "Bushfire." If you're still confused (or if your confusion has only deepened), take two 6-packs of MJD and a Pizza Hut Meat Lover's Special with PPV's "NFL Weekend" package and you'll probably feel better by Monday.
Steve Sailer? Goddess - thanks for the laugh! Aah, the desperation. . .
Monkeyleg, the realization that you've missed an inherent, deeply-conditioned social consciousness to automatically being transparent within male priviledge and authoritarian, patriarchial society is actually a sign of hope. You may begin to actually listen to the way men posture and position themselves mentally in any number of ordinary settings (car repair is my favorite example). Stop letting your mind wander and listen, and then juxtapose yourself on the power heirarchy - there's a wealth to be learned.
Do I automatically hate men? Nope - though they're lots easier to manage when they stay downrange on a tether. . .
What is absolutely true is that my ambivalence polarizes one way or the other in seconds at first contact/introduction. Kathryn is faster. But, she has memory, compared to me. Body language, smell, a sense of balance and presence (or the lack thereof), tone and timbre of voice, etc. We are more thorough than any Inquisition, more coldly judgemental than you'd ever guess.
And if you don't see that in women with whom you presently feel comfortable it's because you 1)aren't looking, or 2) aren't permitted - AKA, she's getting something she wants from you.
Does that help?
All without a barb,;no flag on the play, no harm no foul - please!
YMMV, though. . .
(smiling quietly)
Post by: MicroBalrog on September 16, 2006, 04:06:00 AM
As in, I am sometimes attracted to males, and err affected by gay pr0n.
However, I do not hang out with gay people at all, because each time I hang out with a gay person, they seem to have a strange desire to utterly shove their gayness in everybody's face. It would be approximately the same if I walked up to a gay person and said:
"Hey, I'm Boris. I like women, too! Do you mind me liking women, too? Do you? Well, do you?"
About gay parades: Don't non-gay people understand that the very POINT of gay parades is to be as overtly, campily, stereotypically gay as humanly possible?
Post by: Antibubba on September 16, 2006, 04:21:08 AM
Also, believe it or not, gay bars are a great place to meet girls-they're a lot less guarded and wary than at the "meat markets", and they figure if you're cool enough to come to a gay bar, you might have potential. I met at least two girlfriends there.Because of time constraints, I'll not go into the "lesbians vs men" thing, but as for the "Leather daddies and drag queens in front" thing, I think the stretegy is one of "Shock and Ehhh". That is, as, year after year you become inured to the sight of proud freaks leading the way, eventually you won't even raise an eyebrow to the conservatively-dressed couple next door who just happen to be of the same gender.
Post by: Nightfall on September 16, 2006, 05:07:30 AM
No dancing though. I'll gnaw my legs off to make sure, if I have to.
Post by: Harold Tuttle on September 16, 2006, 05:32:59 AM
why do gay males accept hetero females into their culture?
femininity is something they covet
why are "Lebanese women" hostile toward seemingly everyone?
they fear that someone will convert/take that which they covet
Post by: Mabs2 on September 16, 2006, 07:31:52 AM
Of course, we just laff at them and call them tarded.
Basically, I assume it's similar to the "projection" stuff that the anti-gunners do.
Post by: Fjolnirsson on September 16, 2006, 08:44:49 AM
Quote
Kathryn and I do our part to convert 'em as fast as we can. . . (I think it's only another eight and we qualify for the new Lexus!)
You've already gotten the toaster, then?
Post by: 280plus on September 16, 2006, 08:57:11 AM
Post by: 280plus on September 16, 2006, 09:01:15 AM
Post by: Felonious Monk/Fignozzle on September 16, 2006, 10:21:58 AM
There's an old Pogo cartoon that says "I LOVE humanity. It's PEOPLE I can't stand".
As a group, meaning the parades and masses yelling "we're here, we're queer--get used to it!" are just totally nauseating to me.
And yet, when I meet an individual who is LGBT, I find in many, even most cases, that I REALLY like them.
One of my 'guilty pleasures' is watching the LOGO channel. Very very creative short films, shows, and as a plus, I get educated on things like "genderqueer"... (purposely not being male OR female)
It helps with understanding the trauma of trying to 'come out' to family and the possibility of being rejected, and some of the bizarre extremes to which people go to redefine themselves.
I guess I gain compassion toward some individuals profiled, and it's like watching a bad car wreck at other times. The one thing I get to do is to learn to evaluate individuals and not stereotype groups.
To each his own.
Fig
Post by: Perd Hapley on September 16, 2006, 11:04:25 AM
Quote from: mbs357
Most guys are insecure with their sexuality, so they not only ignore and shun gay folks, but they insult and belittle them to prove that they're not one of them.
Let's watch the unwarranted generalizations, there, OK?Ignoring and shunning homosexuals comes mainly from the fact that most people are a little repelled by homosexuality - sometimes very much so. Most people are just, well, grossed out by the thought of it. I am one of them, for good or ill. Laugh or be offended, if you must.
I'm sure there are people who go overboard to avoid guilt by association, as you have observed, but just because a person doesn't want to get too close to a homosexual doesn't automatically make them insecure.
"Most guys are insecure with their sexuality"? First of all I think you are overestimating due to the above misunderstanding. But I will grant a lot of men are. Why? Because masculinity has been redefined to mean brutishness. Men today are told that any refinement of manners or taste is feminine. Any sensitivity, appreciation for poetry, etc. is thought of as shedding brutish masculinity and getting in touch with one's "feminine side," as if men had such a thing. So when a guy has any of these refinements, he wonders about himself.
There is another reason, I think. We're told that some overinflated percentage of Americans are homosexual, that they're everywhere. The profile of homosexuality has been raised. So, men can't assume that everyone else assumes they are heterosexual. It has to be proved.
There's my musings on the subject, at least.
Post by: James Fitzer on September 16, 2006, 11:23:23 AM
Heh.... i'll certainly take a look at it. I'm fumbling my way through the rest of "Public Sex" and "The selfish gene" right now.
BUT: It had better work... because I hate football, and can't stand cheap beer.
Post by: Oleg Volk on September 16, 2006, 01:08:02 PM
Post by: Iain on September 16, 2006, 01:34:10 PM
Post by: Mabs2 on September 16, 2006, 01:59:41 PM
Quote
Let's watch the unwarranted generalizations, there, OK?
Whoa what did I do?Would it have been better if I said some guys?
Other than that, I agree with your post...but I just don't understand what I said that warrants a brief chewing out.
Post by: Perd Hapley on September 16, 2006, 02:06:18 PM
Quote from: mbs357
Most guys are insecure with their sexuality, so they not only ignore and shun gay folks, but they insult and belittle them to prove that they're not one of them.
Unless you honestly believe that most men:1) are sexually insecure
2) ignore and shun "gay folks" due primarily to this insecurity
3) insult and belittle homosexuals primarily "to prove that they're not one of them."
Do you really know for sure that most men do 2 and 3? How do you know why they do it? What do you mean by "insecure"? Are you saying most men think they might be homosexual, or do you mean that most men are afraid others will think so?
I'm not in a position to "chew you out," I'm just offering my point of view.
Post by: 280plus on September 16, 2006, 03:29:20 PM
Nope, still not gay, sorry fellas!
Post by: Harold Tuttle on September 16, 2006, 04:31:14 PM
i used to hang about with her and her room mate
they introduced me to their circle of friends and one was a stunning lipstick lesbian
quite friendly and flirtatious
boy did the pack close ranks between us ASAP
ever meet a lesbian with shortman syndrome?
now that is HOSTILE
Post by: Mabs2 on September 16, 2006, 04:52:37 PM
Post by: Headless Thompson Gunner on September 16, 2006, 06:23:51 PM
Our first reaction was that the hostility was because they thought we were competing for the other women in the club. You get this sometimes in other clubs and bars. But this wouldn't make sense, because both of us guys were obviosly involved with our respective girlfriends, and we definitely were not showing interest in the other women at the club.
Feminism, and hardcore feminism in particular, is more prevalent among lesbians than in the general population. The only thing I can figure is that there were some aggressive feminists in the croud at this club, and that they were the source of the bad vibes we were getting that night. I think that they simply didn't like the fact that we were men and that we were in their club. I can't think of any reason we gave them for disliking us so strongly, and if it wasn't "what we were doing" then that leaves "who we were" as the cause for their dislike of us.
As for gay men, I don't think there is any analogous anti-women or pro-male sentiment. It's not uncommon for a lesbian to be a lesbian because she dislikes men. But I've never known a man to be gay because he dislikes women. Gay men are gay because they like other men, not because they hate women. I think there's even a sense of comraderie and kinship between gay men and straight women, given that they both find men attractive. Thus a woman at a gay club wouldn't get the same sense of hostility that a guy might get at a lesbian club.
(Disclaimer: It isn't my intention to offend anyone. These are simple observations I've made over the years, with no moral or value judgements attached. So if anything I've said here bothers you, well, tough cookies.)
Post by: Guest on September 16, 2006, 07:26:03 PM
So there's no suspicion of women being in gay bars because she's going to get to see boys make out and tell her buddies about it over beers the next day. Not necessarily true of men in lesbian bars.
I'm kind of speculating here, because I've never been in gay or lesbian bar and until this conversation, didn't know they were two seperate things.
Post by: mfree on September 16, 2006, 07:37:30 PM
Oh-ho-ho-ho yes you do. Go read some fanfic sometime. A friend of mine writes Smallville fanfic and just goes *gaga* when there's any little inkling of male to male attraction on TV.
Post by: Fjolnirsson on September 16, 2006, 07:38:01 PM
Quote
You also never hear women say "Boy, I'd like to see those two guys get it on."
You just haven't met the right women, Barbara.
Post by: Headless Thompson Gunner on September 16, 2006, 08:12:11 PM
Shudder...
Post by: Sylvilagus Aquaticus on September 16, 2006, 09:12:59 PM
However, almost all my female friends are Lebanese. I work with a bunch of women who are card-carriers. My stepsister is 'very outdoorsy', with the Timberlines, flannel shirts, short hair and live-in girl-husband. She's the brother I would have rather had. We hunt together sometimes, rode motorcycles together, drank, caroused the bars, and worked on engines together in our younger days. I ain't skeert of them. I kinda like the rough old dykes. Like being around a DI that has your best interest in mind.
One of my old girlfriends from long ago got back in contact with me about 3 years back. She's started playing for the other team these days. I told SWMBO all about her and we all met for lunch one day; us, T., and her girl-husband. SWMBO thinks the world of her, as I still do.
Gain my respect, respect me, and we can cover for each other. I don't care if folks are gay, straight, pink, purple, or covered in itty bitty blue polka dots. It's the person that matters.
Regards,
Rabbit.
Post by: James Fitzer on September 16, 2006, 09:17:11 PM
Truer words have never been spoken.
Post by: gunsmith on September 16, 2006, 09:41:31 PM
I used to work with a famous lesbian punk rocker and used to be really good friends with her
(Lynne Breedlove of Tribe 8 ) http://www.tribe8.com/
Lynne and her bandmates and fans never ever made me (or the other staight guys looking
at the topless punker lesbians at her shows) feel uncomfortable or anything, treated us real nice and made lewder
comments then I ever dreamed of.
I have another friend in San Francisco who gets girls all the time, he's 47 dresses in drag and hangs out in dyke bars. He has tons of good looking girlfriends in their 20's!!! he is also a commie and a gun nut!
He accidently converted me to being a conservative in the 1990's because we both hated Clinton
and he insisted that I listen to Rush Limbaugh because it had so much fun info for Clinton haters.
So I listened and ...yup...I converted to Conservatisim and Christianity.
(I was raised Catholic but was an anarchist punk rocker who didn't like the nuns hitting me for spelling things wrong as a kid)
As a cab driver in Reno I noticed that gay men will tip better if I tell them I used to live in San Francisco.
We have Dykes all over Reno, it's much more affordable then SF.
Barbara, a young good looking gal a few doors down tells me she likes "guy on guy" action...perhaps it's her way of saying "I'm not sleeping with you"...
I can't stand "queer eye" If a gal don't like my ...uh...style (really the lack of it) she can go get her self a metro sexual ...as I'm closing in on 50 I find I can care less about what others think about frivolous things...
Don't mess with my guns and other rights and I can care less about who you marry or sleep with
Post by: Strings on September 16, 2006, 11:05:52 PM
DINGDINGDINGDING!!! We have a winnah!!!
Wow... fistful wrote something i agree with... world must be coming to an end...
I've been the "token straight in a gay club" (club in Appleton that USED to have THE best dance floor). Yes, women in gay bars are less defensive... MUCH less defensive. I also noticed there that gay men, when they realize a straight doesn't care about their choices, will generally get rabidly defensive of said straight...
I also noticed that Lebanese girls tend to come in two "types": man-hating "vagitarians", and fairly nice "Lebanese girls". And no, you can NOT tell the difference by looking at them...
I used to hang out a LOT with a Lebanese friend: had a crush on her in high school, finally found the balls to say something about it, and found out she weren't interested in boys. Then I found out we had the same taste in women (and she found out I wasn't interested in trying to "convert" her). Some of the best times I ever had were hanging out with her...
My dad, WAAAYY back before he met mom, used to stop in at lesbian bar in San Diego on his way to work. He'd go in, have a beer, joke around with the bar tender... never caused a problem. One day, one of the bull-dykes decided she didn't like some guy in "her" bar... the bartender explained the facts of life to her via a Louisville Slugger...
People are people, Dick... and most aren't worth the powder to blow 'em to Hell. I had a woman at Ren Faire this season berate me for sending a friend roses, because I'm married. Same woman had been telling my (gee, married) sister that she should sleep with some guy at Faire, 'cause he was "a good lay"...
Wow... stream of consciousness... time for bed...
Post by: Monkeyleg on September 17, 2006, 12:53:19 PM
A Lebanese* friend of ours was seemingly hetero when we met her back in the mid-1970's. She went through a terrible relationship with a guy, and after that decided she liked women better.
When she decided she wanted children, she found a guy she liked and married him. She has three great kids now, and seems very happy. My wife has said that she's bisexual. Fine.
*My wife and I have terms we use that one or the other of us comes up with. The term "Lebanese girls" came from her. She also calls her gay friends "G-Men." We call a gun a "gub," which came from the Woody Allen movie, "Take the Money and Run."
We use these terms so often that we forget that other people don't understand, which results in no shortage of curious expressions.
Post by: grampster on September 17, 2006, 04:05:54 PM
Quote from: SylAq
"Gain my respect, respect me, and we can cover for each other. I don't care if folks are gay, straight, pink, purple, or covered in itty bitty blue polka dots. It's the person that matters."
That comment pretty much hits the nail on the head for me. Swmbo and I love Key West. Been going there for years. KW seems to be a place where just about anything goes if you look closely. We've had a lot of good times with folks who are "happy" or "lebanese". Sexuality never comes up unless it is framed in good natured bantering amongst friends. I've always believed one's sexuality is intensely personal. There are too many other human traits that one can focus upon that causes people to become friends. Why promote, scrutinize or isolate behavior that tends to divide? What goes on in the bedroom is no one's business.
Hey Trisha, can I get a ride in the Lexus?
Post by: Antibubba on September 17, 2006, 05:56:43 PM
Quote
Gain my respect, respect me, and we can cover for each other. I don't care if folks are gay, straight, pink, purple, or covered in itty bitty blue polka dots. It's the person that matters.
Mostly I agree, except for those blue polka dot folk-they give me the creeps.
Post by: Guest on September 18, 2006, 12:49:42 AM
Post by: Trisha on September 18, 2006, 07:32:06 AM
Recruiting is fun! It's easy! And, you get to teach lots of people to shoot, too!
Keeping guys out of the way and sending them into seclusion, pondering the lint in their navel is a breeze: just hand them Kate Bornstein's interactive publication, "My Gender Workbook." It's completely non-threatening, nothing more sinister than a multiple-choice test!
(chuckling. . .)
Over the years it's been less than a handful of people who've approached us, with questions they'd struggled with - in some cases - for much of their lives. The funny thing is, we've gotten something of a reputation for it locally, though.
If you're so vanilla straight that it even creeps you out sometimes, don't let it bother you. It can happen to the nicest people you'd ever want to meet, and it's wrong to make them feel weird, or left out. Sometimes it goes further than social programming - they were born that way! We try hard to break them of lives lived in fear, behind walls of extremist phobias. With an investment of time and patience, some can discover rich, full lives that make meaningful contributions.
It's like in the old days, before the human genome incontravertably proved that it's coded in the genes, before the physical proof finally broke down all but the fanatics' bastions of denial, even back decades before Stonewall - yep, that long ago: From the fall of Delphi and the rape of the Sabines, wth the rise of the patriarchial model the sole way the power structure has been maintained has been to defend the male as the dominant social authority. And anyone who didn't conform faced being completely outcast, even death. They celebrated it as being normal.
But even after such a black night of despair there came a dawn - and with it, confusion. Though they had eyes, they rejected what they saw for a time. . .
Only for a time. It's human nature to learn, eventually, even to grow.
(shy)
Anyway.
grampster, IRL it isn't ever going to be a Lexus, save emotionally. Owning self-acceptance without reservation or inhibition is less a luxury and, as the years go by, less fragile. Learning to believe in myself enough to claim a right to more than merely exist but to contribute as is within my abilities to the larger fabric of community and implicitly, society; to don the mantle that was waiting for me all along of liberty and train in arms and study history, well, it's a clean and well-maintained pick-up. The allegorical concept of coming home to myself is a tangible reality. There have been physical and emotional wounds that healed badly, leaving scars - but I own them, too, without rancor these days.
I may not have memory, but the pattern of being myself feels pretty resolved, and I can enjoy nothing more complicated than being.
It is touching to see the contributors to this thread voice permission for one such as me to exist. That's staggering social progress in little more than a few decades.
Post by: Lee on September 18, 2006, 07:46:18 AM
hate is when someone assumes that I, a 50 year old white male, is a bigot and should be proactively hated...which happens all the time.
Post by: Trisha on September 18, 2006, 08:04:08 AM
Post by: doczinn on September 18, 2006, 08:30:41 AM
BUT: I also have no problem at all with someone else's chocie of who to bump uglies with. It simply ain't my business, and I don't wanna make it my business.
BUT: I find the idea of men having sex with men to be utterly, totally, completely, 100% repulsive. The same as I found it repulsive when a friend of mine (who weighed about 105) described his ideal type of woman as "unhuggable."
SO: a place like a gay bar, where the activity is generally oriented toward an activity that thoroughly disgusts me, is a place that I will generally avoid like the plague.
If that makes me a homophobe, hate away.
Post by: Trisha on September 18, 2006, 08:54:54 AM
I don't know, but for some reason, circa the Nixon administration, I hear the whispered echoes of Deep Throat:
"Follow the money!"
If I had to guess, I could easily suspect keeping the LBGT community locked into a stereotype that receives "community funding" patently pays for votes. Real or imagined, it could well be nothing more than a voting block.
The rest?
Everything is relative. . .in it's own waaaaay. . .
(sing it!)
Post by: roo_ster on September 18, 2006, 09:09:07 AM
Quote
a). why do gay males accept hetero females into their culture?
Well, so many highly visible gay males take their cues from women. Flamboyant gay male culture seems to be parasitic or derivative of aspects of feminine culture and would not exist without it.Also, I think some hetero women like hte idea of males they can socialize/girl talk (or speak of what has become characherized as feminine) with and be less worried if every guy they meet wants to sleep wiht them.
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b) why are some, if not most, hetero guys afraid to confront their own sexuality?
I'm sure some do. Getting at the root of it is, I am sure, a very individualized affair. I suspect that the question has a faulty premise: that a disgust/dislike/aversion to things homosexual is a sign of insecuirty or inward turmoil. Also, in cases where there is some sort of "fear" it might be less a question of, "Am I gay?" and more a "Holy cow, I'm all wound around the axle WRT sex in general!"
Alomst ALL societies* have had a pretty hard line vis a vis homosexuality. There has been some bit of work trying to determine if this is a cultural artifact or a genetic survival trait (as opposed to inborn, a good discussion of which can be found here). Now, wouldn't that be a hoot? Two groups squaring off with each other & claiming victim status. It would be almost as good as the enviro-nut vs indian kerfluffle when it was ruled the indians could hunt whales, again...with motorboats and Barret .50cal rifles.
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) why are "Lebanese women" hostile toward seemingly everyone?
Most I have met have been the, "I want to live my life with my partner" lebanese rather than the man-hating-bull-dyke kind. I think that those that frequent lebanese bars or otherwise congregate togehter (in large groups) are much more into "being gay" than the lebanese couple that buys a house in the burbs, has two dogs, and is worried about the mortgage, car payment, and if hte new family across the street will mow their yard & keep up the neighborhood standards.Also, a lot of it may be location, location, location. A far-left locality with feminist reading rooms and the like, will harbor much more hostility toward men and masculinity.
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d) why have the leaders of the gay rights movement not learned to keep the leather-bound crowd away from the cameras?
Because, at its foundation, a lot of the "Hey, I'm GAY!" homosexuals** are more about disparaging the norms and standards of the majority than about applied sexuality.If gays can't march down Main Street in buttless chaps, the terrorists will have won! (A distillation of an argument made by Pim Fortuyn, Dutch politician, promoter of homosexuality, and possible pedophile, when he spoke on hte effects of muslim immigration into the Netherlands. He was later killed by a leftist dutchman for his ideas.)
* "Almost ALL" is used because we may find one where openly practicing gay couples were accepted in polite society without remark, penalty, etc. Even Greek civ, normally considered "gay friendly" in the currnet misconception was only partially so. In the mentor/pupil relationship it was considered very bad form to "get jiggy with it." Also, the male on the receiving end was viewed with scorn and derision as taking the part of the female.
** As opposed to the homosexuals who seem to be more about living their life, like the rest of humanity, with their sexuality as part of their beings rather than the reason for thier existance.
Whoops, hit "submit" rahter than "preview" the first time 'round.
Post by: Perd Hapley on September 18, 2006, 09:55:05 AM
Exist away. It is indeed terrible that homosexuality has been persecuted with violence or threats thereof. I prefer conversation, where applicable.
I'm curious how a bias against homosexuality corresponds with patriarchy. Or is it a bias against lesbianism of which you speak?
I should also like to encourage you to look further into this matter of genetic determinism vis-a-vis sexuality. I don't believe it has been proven in any degree, much less "incontrovertably." Unfortunately, I'm not an expert in such matters. I can ask, however, why does genetic determinism militate for the position that homosexuality is normal or acceptable? Genes are not infallible.
Post by: AJ Dual on September 18, 2006, 09:56:31 AM
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why are "Lebanese women" hostile toward seemingly everyone?
I find the connection between bias against lesbianisim and patriarchy interesting.A "pragmatic" patriarchy might view a certain rate of male homosexualithy as desireable, or at least tolerable, if one looks behind the initial façade of intolerance and homophobia. "The reduction in competition argument" if you will.
OTOH, that same "pragmatic" sense would cause a patriarchy to view female homosexuality as threatening, because it reduces the pool of availible mates, and it creates the preception of competition.
If that social dynamic actualy exists, that undercurrent of hostility may feed into the "angry lesbian" stereotype. And perhaps a hetero-male has some hard-wiring that makes an identified lesbian "seem" hostile for those very reasons whether she is or not?
Aside from that, I do think part of it is that the "Angry man-hating bull-dyke Lesbian" stereotype is what (clueless) people remember when they're forcibly confronted with someone they know is a Lesbian. All the while, they may have been surrounded by friendly "lipsticks" that they never gave a second thought to. And all the Lesbians in-between those two extremes get dismissed as "plain", "hippy/nature girl", "tomboy", or as an otherwise hetero or neutral/asexual woman who's simply not obsessed with her femininity&
I will say that I've run across more aggressive and unfriendly bull-dyke types than friendly outgoing bulls, however I admit right up front that my single statistical sample is hardly representative of anything, and my own perceptions may be warped! However I do wonder what the driving force behind the legitamate examples of the "angry bull" is.
Jealousy over the perceived (and real) competition with men, if they're attracted to fems?
Expressing the stress and dissatisfaction that being homosexual still causes in society?
Being masculine identified, but never, by definition, being as masculine as a man?
Genetics?
In some extreme cases of angry-bull syndrome I've seen, literally seething every second, looking to pick a fight with the world, I suspect it's a toxic brew of some if not all of the above. Again, going by my limited experiences, every stereotypically angry bull I've seen or met in person gave me the instinctual sense that they were deeply unhappy people.
And the notion that there are no gays who are hateful, angry, or resentful of women, while it might be "true" as a stereotype, it's far from universal. Through my Mother and my wife who are both in different facets of the performing arts, I've been exposed to a larger share of gay men than my suburban Milwaukee upbringing would have normally. The misogyny tends to leak around the corners, and it expresses itself in a mix of high-school girl-clique-like cattiness, and crude humor you'd more likely expect from sailors or a construction site.
Post by: Trisha on September 18, 2006, 10:47:40 AM
It happens.
If I had put it into italics and qualified it as such, confusion could've been avoided. The perception of bias, as relevant to the patriarchial social model? Nothing more complicated than a notion that a simplified, hetero structure defends said simplicity. It's much less complicated to scribe demarcations that way.
Against the learned and fluent intellectual, my perceptions and notions could well be soundly trounced; they're a result of being an outsider who gets infrequent and brief social participation by necessity.
Likely, I should know better than to enter such discourse! There are files of past notes from those in stealth mode, as well as others which reiterate, "Why do you bother!?" and "You've got it all wrong - it's nothing like that these days; get out more!"
(shrugging)
It's not that I'm intractible, much less obtuse - I just don't get to remember, and then intuitively draw on experience with subtlty.
jfruser, I find resonance with Steve Martin's early character discovering he's got rhythm. Good post.
Post by: Perd Hapley on September 18, 2006, 11:10:17 AM
Thanks for spelling my name correctly. Should I interpret your comment as:
"Nothing personal, fistful, but I'd just rather not get into this subject with you, especially as the narrower focus of the thread is more interesting to me."?
My comments were off-topic, I know.
Post by: Trisha on September 18, 2006, 11:34:15 AM
Think in terms of vested interests in a rigid social structure, and you'll probably extrapolate more substance than I could elucidate coherently.
(cheerily)
TTFN!
Post by: Perd Hapley on September 18, 2006, 11:46:29 AM
Post by: mustanger98 on September 18, 2006, 12:47:26 PM
Quote from: fistful
What am I doing in this thread? I don't even go to "straight" bars.
I've been watching this thread and keeping quiet, but... yeah, I'm with you there. I don't care anything about that "rooster strutting" deal competing over women. It's easy to get caught up in, but it looks really really dumb. Being straight though, I really don't care for guys hitting on me, not that that's happened in a long time.FWIW, I'm sort of aquainted with a lesbian couple... they're into horses and guns and that's what we have in common. Thing about them is if you don't know they're lesbian, you won't know it. And they're as cool with me being straight as I am with them being lesbian. We're not getting into each other's sexuality. We're just doing the "live and let live" thing and enjoying the mutual interest. As individuals, this couple is nice people. I do recall though finding out who the lesbians are/were in my area- the ones who work at Home Depot- and seeing a negative reaction from them. What happened... my sister is straight and she went to work at Home Depot here and wound up knowing who they were at that time. We ran into them in the restraunt that one night early on... I think they didn't like it knowing their co-worker was straight and in a straight family. But then, they also catch it from the religious angle around here too... I think it's a Bible Belt thing in some respects.
Lee
(Today 07:46:18)
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I could really care less about someone's sexuality or ethnicity. What I DO
hate is when someone assumes that I, a 50 year old white male, is a bigot and should be proactively hated...which happens all the time.
Yeah. That's about the long and short of it.
hate is when someone assumes that I, a 50 year old white male, is a bigot and should be proactively hated...which happens all the time.
Post by: Guest on September 18, 2006, 03:10:33 PM
The truth is, seriously, I don't hate men. Probably 70% of my friends are men, and my closest friends are both guys. And of the 30% of my friends who are women, the vast majority are somewhat like me. I have a hard time dealing with people who don't have backbone and some self-interest, regardless of their gender.
What happened for a long time was that I found myself disliking women. And I still find women disliking me, but differently. First it was because I was "one of the guys" and now because I call the "guys" on a lot of crap that most women just don't see. Women hate that worse than men do.
The hardest thing for me as I grow older is to learn to accept other people, especially women, who don't stand up for themselves..women are taught, in a zillion ways, in subtle ways, and not so subtle, that we're *not* the standard..that we're weaker or less than, that we're the diminutive of men..or worse yet, that we belong in some stupid gilded cage where people don't use bad language and our lives revolve around sacraficing ourselves making other people comfy. And I can't wrap my mind around that because, well..I'm me. I don't need to be coddled and I'm not big on coddling other people. I just want to live out my life on my own terms and get impatient with anyone that stands in my way.
Post by: LadySmith on September 18, 2006, 10:24:27 PM
Quote from: Barbara
I just want to live out my life on my own terms and get impatient with anyone that stands in my way.
Amen
Post by: Snake Eyes on September 19, 2006, 09:33:25 AM
Post by: Monkeyleg on September 19, 2006, 02:14:28 PM
My wife's uncle is gay, and he's now 73. The last time my wife and I went to a bar, it was to his favorite hangout, a place called "The Ball Game."
The Ball Game is a gay bar, but the clientele is very different. It's gay guys in their 60's, 70's or even 80's.
Unlike the more popular gay bars, there are no dancing boys in g-strings on a stage. Instead, it's pretty much what you'd expect: a bunch of old guys sitting at a bar, complaining about aches and pains, and talking about days gone by. Not much going on in the way of one person hitting on another. In fact, I doubt very much that anyone who didn't already know it was a gay bar would realize that it was.
The exception is the transvestites. That last time we were at the bar was on Halloween. Two Milwaukee South Side "busha's" came in. ("Busha" is MKE Polish slang for "grandma").
They were dressed perfectly: the bluish-gray hair, the little purses, the whole "Milwaukee Sout' Side" busha look. It took a minute before I realized that: a) it was Halloween and; b) these two guys had done the best makeup job of anyone I've ever seen.
Don't know what all of the above means, but The Ball Game has to be the least threatening bar in the city.
Post by: Antibubba on September 19, 2006, 09:23:01 PM
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I'm trying to figure out where I fit in this as a man-hating straight chick.
Barbara, I hope you'll hold off on hating me until you actually meet me, like everyone else does.
Post by: Headless Thompson Gunner on September 19, 2006, 09:28:03 PM
Quote from: LadySmith
Quote from: Barbara
I just want to live out my life on my own terms and get impatient with anyone that stands in my way.
AmenPost by: CAnnoneer on September 21, 2006, 02:29:00 PM
My own attitude is one of recognition of their rights coupled with personal revulsion at the thought of the physical act. Certain rights should be accorded, even marriage, but just don't tell me any of it is natural. If indeed homosexuality is based on genetics that produces a brain biochemically opposite to the host body, then at best these people are unfortunate aberrations, on the same level as some other physical or mental deformity. They have my sympathy and assurances of certain rights, in exchange for my right to be publicly disgusted by it. In contrast, we now have a way-over-the-top in-your-face media coverage and political validation of an unfortunate aberration coupled with a strong passive-aggressive undercurrent of closet hatred. That is not a healthy state of affairs for a society.
People will face their sexuality more honestly and openly, if they stop worrying about what other people think about it. This principle goes beyond sexuality as well. For example, I am a hetero who also likes fine things and has an artistic taste and a (frugal) sense of style. More recently, I helped a ladyfriend set up and decorate her house (actually did most of it myself). As I predicted, her female friends immediately told her it was so pretty and stylish that I must be gay. Did that stop me from doing it? No. Does it prevent me from enjoying myself aesthetically? No. Why? Because I do not care what her friends think.
What I have realized in terms of my own sexuality is that while exclusively and strongly attracted to women in the sensual and physical sense, I definitely prefer the social and intellectual company of men. My own explanation is that many women are just so bitter about being women that they create a web of beliefs and attitudes to ameliorate that emotional discomfort. However, the same web annoys the hell out of somebody like me. Conversely, note that the hetero women most secure and relishing their femininity are the one that we men find virtually irresistible.
The funny thing is in general women do not even have it that bad. In fact, I'd argue that species-level biology favors them far more than us. On average, we get to do the tougher, dirtier, more dangerous jobs. In exchange, we might get some sexual pleasure, but there is not even a reasonable guarantee that the kids we raise are our own. Especially historically we have tended to have more personal power and wealth, but in the end, most of us spend it on a family, which is ultimately "her" idea.
Just read "Sperm Wars". You will not look upon the world with the same eyes.
Post by: Strings on September 21, 2006, 03:14:07 PM
DINGDINGDING! We have another winnah!!!
Post by: mustanger98 on September 21, 2006, 05:13:10 PM
Post by: Guest on September 21, 2006, 05:24:58 PM
Post by: Perd Hapley on September 21, 2006, 05:29:40 PM
Post by: mustanger98 on September 21, 2006, 05:46:51 PM