Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: Ned Hamford on April 22, 2014, 10:45:05 AM
-
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2014/04/20/its-final-corn-ethanol-is-of-no-use/
The UN has now found that if you count the energy used in growing the corn and all related transportation, it is far worse for the planet than Oil... for which they counted extraction, refining, and transport from the start. I would have honestly trusted a grade schooler to work this out. Fuel source made over thousands upon thousands of years just sitting there all compressed and for free after extraction cost and some centuries developed refining, vs a fuel source from the same principle, un-compressed/concentrated, that requires continuous cultivation and refining and just as much transport as the other stuff.
Oh, and woops, increasing food prices also starves folks, and increasing fuel prices causes not just travel/transport opportunity costs, but folks freezing to death in winter. Oopsies.
I wish I could think it was rationality breaking in, but I really thing its just a prelude to the next great wonder of energy alternative with massive gov. intervention for the choosing of winners and losers.
Edit: Useful synopsis for side effects and fallouts that basically follow 20 seconds of thought. (From the same article, citing a gov report)
"In 2000, over 90% of the U.S. corn crop went to feed people and livestock, many in undeveloped countries, with less than 5% used to produce ethanol. In 2013, however, 40% went to produce ethanol, 45% was used to feed livestock, and only 15% was used for food and beverage (AgMRC)."
-
Unfortunately for us, the .gov will not get the message.
-
Unfortunately for us, the .gov will not get the message.
Actually they have through the degradation of environment reports that have come out lately.
-
Actually they have through the degradation of environment reports that have come out lately.
Color me surprised.
-
But the farm/ethanol lobby, is pretty strong. The American consumer will lose yet again.
Thanks, Wesley Clark. You sucked then, and you suck even harder now.
-
Actually they have through the degradation of environment reports that have come out lately.
Starving people and rising fuel costs...no worries!
Environment is taking a hit...We Must Act Now!
-
Unfortunately for us, the .gov will not get the message.
Eh? Are you mad? The .gov will get the message in a heartbeat.
http://www.ncga.com/for-farmers/issue-briefs/ethanol
"Gee, it'd be an awful shame if anything happened to that ethanol mandate... Now, if some poor orphaned campaign contributions needed a good home, I'm sure my re-election PAC could help out."
Repeat next year.
-
Eh? Are you mad? The .gov will get the message in a heartbeat.
And besides the farm lobby...can you imagine a .gov solution to ethanol being proven not good? I guarantee it wouldn't be to stop subsidizing Ethanol...it'll be something *expletive deleted*ed up and insane.
-
Color me surprised.
Living in the corn belt and seeing acres being taken out the conservation reserve program and put into row crops, and with the nutrient/sediment total daily loads limits for other watersheds (Chesapeake Bay and now Ohio River) I knew it was coming.
Cellulose based ethanol will also probably take a hit since removing too stover from the field surface increases erosion, so expect lower harvest of stover and more cover crops for soil protection during then non growing season.
What is interesting is that the Republicans in Iowa are fighting to have more corn based ethanol and the Democrats are fighting to reduce it.
-
Unfortunately for us, the .gov will not get the message.
Just means it's time to double down on teh stoopidz.
-
Does that mean eating beef is also bad for the environment, since it removes both corn ears and stalks from the fields?
Just curious, I'll have to ask my cousins and uncles/aunts who sell corn to the local ethanol distilleries...
-
Does that mean eating beef is also bad for the environment, since it removes both corn ears and stalks from the fields?
Just curious, I'll have to ask my cousins and uncles/aunts who sell corn to the local ethanol distilleries...
Removal of stover is increases soil erosion since there is nothing to slow the impact of the raindrop.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.swac.umn.edu%2Fclasses%2Fsoil2125%2Fimg%2F10rndp1.jpg&hash=e4ca1bd85ffdd11284a306289597583d9e2432ce)
-
I just want ethanol out of gasoline...that's really all I ask.
-
I just want ethanol out of gasoline...that's really all I ask.
Why do you hate the farmer and his traditions of burning his bounty in internal combustion engines? Why i can recall grandma talking about her grandparents leaving the old world in the 1870s and coming to america just so they could grow corn to be burned in precocious baby henry fords toy automobiles.
-
I just want ethanol out of gasoline...that's really all I ask.
Petro-based fuels mixed with biofuels or some other alternative fuel is here to stay, be careful what you wish for. The next blend may only work in certain types of fuel delivery systems, requiring everyone to get a new Prius type vehicle.
-
Petro-based fuels mixed with biofuels or some other alternative fuel is here to stay, be careful what you wish for. The next blend may only work in certain types of fuel delivery systems, requiring everyone to get a new Prius type vehicle.
This. Oil companies aren't going to care if their petroleum has to get mixed with ethanol or anything else. They're still making their money. The biofuel lobbies are not going to go away anytime soon, and I don't see enough concerned citizens getting together to successfully outbribe and outvote them.
-
UN hates corn based fuels
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2014/04/20/its-final-corn-ethanol-is-of-no-use/
-
Dammit.
If the UN doesn't like it I'm instinctualy impelled to re-evaluate my positiion. =|
-
Does that mean eating beef is also bad for the environment, since it removes both corn ears and stalks from the fields?
Just curious, I'll have to ask my cousins and uncles/aunts who sell corn to the local ethanol distilleries...
I can make several suggestions about the distillation of corn products that don't involve gasoline. :P
-
I can make several suggestions about the distillation of corn products that don't involve gasoline. :P
Mighty, mighty pleasin' ...
=D
-
I just want ethanol out of gasoline...that's really all I ask.
wow, this is gonna be bad for the unemployment numbers. first we'll have the farmers out of work, then all the mechanics who clean up the fuel systems!
-
wow, this is gonna be bad for the unemployment numbers. first we'll have the farmers out of work, then all the mechanics who clean up the fuel systems!
Not to mention the buggy and buggy whip manufacturers.
-
Not to mention the buggy and buggy whip manufacturers.
And buckboard makers, butter churn manufactures, crock makers, barrel makers, cotton flour sacks, wooden ship builders, sail makers, etc.
-
Not to mention the buggy and buggy whip manufacturers.
and whale oil processors!
-
I'm not one who forgets we are a petroleum-driven economy, and that's been the norm for decades, if not a century.
My current job is in the fracking industry, and they (Halliburton/Gardner Denver/Black Horse) are throwing millions of dollars at my company just to keep that technology growing.
With all the easy oil gone, fracking has become the mantra, even spouting such prophecies as being energy-independent from Ickystan/Saudi by 2020. (Yeah, right)
Problem is, fracking is nasty business in and of itself, and then there's the seismic tremors that are being produced by injection of the wastewater underground, let alone the fracking process itself which runs my pistons, plungers, pony rods, and valves at 20-30K PSI for about 150 hours before they're scrapped.
Ethanol is Satan's Steaming Loin Juice. You'll drink it, no problem, but gawd forbid you run it in an internal or external combustion engine... ;/
-
I don't think the easy oil is gone so much as it is gone in the places they have access to and can look.
-
We cannot grow enough crops to fuel the combustion engines of the western world.
Get rid of subsidies and mandates then let the market decide whether the land is better used providing food or corn for ethanol.
-
If isn't the corn/ethanol lobby that owns politicians, its the politicians that own the corn/ethanol lobby. There are plenty of ethanol plants owned outright by politicians.
-
If isn't the corn/ethanol lobby that owns politicians, its the politicians that own the corn/ethanol lobby. There are plenty of ethanol plants owned outright by politicians.
That's no shtako!
-
I'm not one who forgets we are a petroleum-driven economy, and that's been the norm for decades, if not a century.
My current job is in the fracking industry, and they (Halliburton/Gardner Denver/Black Horse) are throwing millions of dollars at my company just to keep that technology growing.
With all the easy oil gone, fracking has become the mantra, even spouting such prophecies as being energy-independent from Ickystan/Saudi by 2020. (Yeah, right)
Problem is, fracking is nasty business in and of itself, and then there's the seismic tremors that are being produced by injection of the wastewater underground, let alone the fracking process itself which runs my pistons, plungers, pony rods, and valves at 20-30K PSI for about 150 hours before they're scrapped.
Ethanol is Satan's Steaming Loin Juice. You'll drink it, no problem, but gawd forbid you run it in an internal or external combustion engine... ;/
Here's the problem in a nutshell... Oil, with fracking is still something around a 4:1, maybe 5:1 net energy gain. If we're capturing natural gas from the same field from some of the same work, it's higher.
Ethanol is roughly 10% in total efficient, if that. It's gone from 1.09:1 in 2002, to 2.34:1 in 2010... (And I'm skeptical, as the industry circles the wagons to preserve market share and subsidies...)
Then add to it the logistical expenses, that ethanol can't be pipelined or handled in the same quantities or ways that petroleum can due to it's chemical nature, and the efficiency is even lower. And that multiple fuel and petrochemical fractions such as gas, diesel, kerosene, lubrication oil, paraffin, even bitumen/asphalt, it's economic utility/efficiency is then lowered even further beyond the energy efficiency.
And all the ethanol apologist arguments that it's not mucking with food commodity prices is sophistry. The arguments that land was not in use is now going to ethanol corn is not 100% accurate, and even if it was, that still messes with commodity food prices.
Unlike the false beliefs of various Leftist schools of economics that wrongly portray an economy as a zero-sum game, farming actually is, because there is only so much land. Whether it's a new field or not, it's still a field that's not producing other edible or animal feed commodity crops, period.
Ethanol is a loser, propped up by false promises, farm subsidy politics, and emotive reasoning that it's "good" because uh... "Farmers have it tough, and um... reasons."