Post by: BakerMikeRomeo on September 21, 2006, 09:54:21 PM
My question is sort of simple, but I think it'll have a lengthy answer. Unfortunately, I just don't know what to look for, or I expect I could find the answer straight away on google or wikipedia, so here goes:
How are the various units in our military (and others, if'n y'all know) assigned their numbers and what do they mean, if anything?
Like, why is the 101st Airborne Division the 101? The 173rd Airborne Brigade its number?
I sometimes see a unit's regular number followed by a fraction like "3/4 USMC" or something like that.
I can't think of anymore examples just now, but I hope y'all get the idea and can help me out.
Thanks in advance,
~GnSx
...
'Cause I'm [SPARE]Gunny, yes, I'm the real Gunny, all you other [SPARE]Gunnies are just imitating, so won't the real [SPARE]Gunny please stand up, please stand up, please stand up?
Post by: wingnutx on September 21, 2006, 10:07:56 PM
"2/3 Special Forces" would be 2nd Battalion, 3rd SF. They refer to it as B2/3 when it's spoken.
A lot of the division designators (like the 101st) were arbitrary to make some attempt to fool enemy analysts, iirc. There were even some fake units in WWII that only existed on paper, but had their own insignia.
NMCB 17 (my unit) is Naval Mobile Construction Battalion 17. IIRC, all the battalions numbered >10 are reserves.
Post by: Perd Hapley on September 22, 2006, 03:14:15 AM
Quote from: wingnutx
"2/24 Marines" would be 2nd Battalion, 24th Marine Regiment.
"2/3 Special Forces" would be 2nd Battalion, 3rd SF. They refer to it as B2/3 when it's spoken.
The special forces might say "B 2 3," but I think all the rest of us just say the 2 3 part. "2/3 Special Forces" would be 2nd Battalion, 3rd SF. They refer to it as B2/3 when it's spoken.
The fact that there is a second battalion of the 24th regiment doesn't mean there is a first battalion or a third battalion, though there may have been at one time. Don't expect to find any rhyme or reason to the numbers. They have survived through various reorganizations.
Post by: TarpleyG on September 22, 2006, 03:44:11 AM
I was in Headquarter's Battalion, 14th Marine Regiment, 4th Marine Division.
I guess now that I look at it, it isn't as bad as some of them I have seen floating around.
Greg
Post by: Moondoggie on September 22, 2006, 04:32:56 AM
On the active duty side, there are 12 regiments; 9 infantry (1-9) and 3 artillery (10-12). Each regiment has 3 battalions. As others have posted, that's where the fractions come into play. During WWII, when we had 500K active duty folks vs. about 175K today, there were 6 divisions on paper to confuse the Japanese. In actuality, they were made up of the same folks who were redisignated after surviving each campaign and going through a refit/reorganization session.
The National Security Act of 1947 requires DOD to maintain 3 active duty combat divisions and 3 air wings in the Marine Corps. This was to prevent the politically ascendent army and navy from budgeting the Marines out of existence in fits of interservice rivalry.
There are 3 reserve infantry regiments and one reserve artillery regiment in the 4th Marine Division....these are the 23rd, 24th, etc.
1st Marine Division (MarDiv) is made up of the 1st, 5th, & 7th Marines. 2nd MarDiv is the 2nd, 6th, and 8th Marines. 3rd MarDiv is the 3rd, 4th, and 9th Marines. BTW, according to Marine Corps traditions, the 4th Marines is never allowed to be stationed stateside (They've been in Okinawa since WWII) because they burned their regimental colors prior to surrendering at Corregidor in 1942.
The aviation units are a little more complicated.
Post by: roo_ster on September 22, 2006, 07:01:19 AM
The preceding have covered a bit of it. The current mix of Division-level units in the Army is a legacy from our wars dating way back.
For instance, I was in the 517PIR (Parachute Infantry Regiment) while in jump school at Ft Benning. I don't think there are 517 PIRs or any other sort of airborne regiments on the planet, let alone in the US Army.
FWIW, below in the CODE is a quick & dirty generic Army unit/size reference.
Code:
Numbers given are approximate.
Organizations can and usually will become mixed starting at the Company/Troop level
Light Infantry/Airborne * Light Infantry/Airborne * Light Infantry/Airborne
Number Soldiers * Number component units * Component Units
1 * N/A * Soldier
2 * 2 soldiers * Buddy Team
4 * 2 buddy teams * Fire Team
9 * 2 fire teams * Squad
40 * 3-4 squads * Platoon
120 * 3-4 platoons * Company
400 * 3+ companies * Battalion
? * 2+ battalions * Brigade/Regiment
? * 2+ bgde/regt * Division
? * 2+ divisions * Corps
? * 2+ corps * Army
Armored (tank/mech inf) * Armored (tank/mech inf) * Armored (tank/mech inf)
Number Vehicles * Number component units * Component Units
1 * N/A * Vehicle
2 * 2 vehicles * Section
4 * 2 sections * Platoon
12 * 3+ platoons * Company
40 * 3-4 compnies * Battalion
120 * 3-4 battalions * Bgde/Regt
400 * 2+ bgde/regt * Division
? * 2+ divisions * Corps
? * 2+ corps * Army
Armored Cavalry (Heavy) * Armored Cavalry (Heavy) * Armored Cavalry (Heavy)
Number Vehicles * Number component units * Component Units
1 * N/A * Vehicle
2 * 2 vehicles * Section
4+ * 2-3 sections * Platoon
12+ * 3+ platoons * Troop
40 * 3-4 compnies * Squadron
120 * 3-4 battalions * Regt
ARMY COMBAT ORGANIZATIONS
Army organizations are inherently built around people and the tasks
they must perform. Major combat organizations are composed of
smaller forces as shown here.
SQUAD
Leader is a sergeant
Smallest unit in Army organization
Size varies depending on type$(OIn(Bfantry (9 men), Armor (4 men),
Engineer (10 men)
Three or four squads make up a platoon
PLATOON
Leader is a lieutenant
Size varies$(HIn(Bfantry (40 men), Armor (4 tanks, 16 men)
Three or four platoons make up a company
COMPANY
Commander is a captain
Usually 150$(H22(B0 men
Artillery unit of this size is called a battery
Armored Cavalry or Air Cavalry unit is called a troop
Basic tactical element of the maneuver battalion or cavalry squadron
Normally five companies make up a battalion
BATTALION
Commanded by a lieutenant colonel
Tactically and administratively self-sufficient
Armored Cavalry and Air Cavalry equivalents called squadrons
Two or more combat battalions make up a brigade
BRIGADE
Commanded by a colonel
May be employed on independent or semi-independent operations
Combat, combat support or service support elements may be
attached to perform specific missions
Normally three combat brigades are in a division
DIVISION
Commanded by a major general
Fully structured division has own brigade-size artillery, aviation,
engineer, combat support and service elements
Two or more divisions make up a corps commanded by a lieutenant
general
Organizations can and usually will become mixed starting at the Company/Troop level
Light Infantry/Airborne * Light Infantry/Airborne * Light Infantry/Airborne
Number Soldiers * Number component units * Component Units
1 * N/A * Soldier
2 * 2 soldiers * Buddy Team
4 * 2 buddy teams * Fire Team
9 * 2 fire teams * Squad
40 * 3-4 squads * Platoon
120 * 3-4 platoons * Company
400 * 3+ companies * Battalion
? * 2+ battalions * Brigade/Regiment
? * 2+ bgde/regt * Division
? * 2+ divisions * Corps
? * 2+ corps * Army
Armored (tank/mech inf) * Armored (tank/mech inf) * Armored (tank/mech inf)
Number Vehicles * Number component units * Component Units
1 * N/A * Vehicle
2 * 2 vehicles * Section
4 * 2 sections * Platoon
12 * 3+ platoons * Company
40 * 3-4 compnies * Battalion
120 * 3-4 battalions * Bgde/Regt
400 * 2+ bgde/regt * Division
? * 2+ divisions * Corps
? * 2+ corps * Army
Armored Cavalry (Heavy) * Armored Cavalry (Heavy) * Armored Cavalry (Heavy)
Number Vehicles * Number component units * Component Units
1 * N/A * Vehicle
2 * 2 vehicles * Section
4+ * 2-3 sections * Platoon
12+ * 3+ platoons * Troop
40 * 3-4 compnies * Squadron
120 * 3-4 battalions * Regt
ARMY COMBAT ORGANIZATIONS
Army organizations are inherently built around people and the tasks
they must perform. Major combat organizations are composed of
smaller forces as shown here.
SQUAD
Leader is a sergeant
Smallest unit in Army organization
Size varies depending on type$(OIn(Bfantry (9 men), Armor (4 men),
Engineer (10 men)
Three or four squads make up a platoon
PLATOON
Leader is a lieutenant
Size varies$(HIn(Bfantry (40 men), Armor (4 tanks, 16 men)
Three or four platoons make up a company
COMPANY
Commander is a captain
Usually 150$(H22(B0 men
Artillery unit of this size is called a battery
Armored Cavalry or Air Cavalry unit is called a troop
Basic tactical element of the maneuver battalion or cavalry squadron
Normally five companies make up a battalion
BATTALION
Commanded by a lieutenant colonel
Tactically and administratively self-sufficient
Armored Cavalry and Air Cavalry equivalents called squadrons
Two or more combat battalions make up a brigade
BRIGADE
Commanded by a colonel
May be employed on independent or semi-independent operations
Combat, combat support or service support elements may be
attached to perform specific missions
Normally three combat brigades are in a division
DIVISION
Commanded by a major general
Fully structured division has own brigade-size artillery, aviation,
engineer, combat support and service elements
Two or more divisions make up a corps commanded by a lieutenant
general
Post by: garrettwc on September 22, 2006, 07:36:43 AM
Post by: doczinn on September 22, 2006, 07:47:20 AM
Quote
Each regiment has 3 battalions.
When I was in, which was until 2003, 4th Marines was split up, and a battalion assigned to each other regiment. Thus, 1st Marines consisted of 1/1, 2/1, 3/1, and 1/4.With the ongoing troubles in Iraq, 4th Marines may now have been reactivated.
Post by: Matthew Carberry on September 22, 2006, 08:35:27 AM
Quote from: garrettwc
Thanks for the breakdown Moondoggie. I think I can finally understand my father's unit designation now. He was 1st Div, 5th Marines in Korea.
Are you sure he wasn't in 1/5? As was said, that's usually how the units are called. If so, he was in 1st Battalion, 5th Marines (Regiment). We don't really mention the Division number (1st MARDIV in this case) much when identifying units. With the structure as it is, you can tell the Div. by the Reg. so there's no need to say it.The Marine Corps is very much a "regimental" system due to our history and the expeditionary nature of how we train and deploy. The geographical separation (East Coast, West Coast and Islands) leads to differences in attitude and personality. Also noticeable differences in how they train and fight.
For instance West Coast Marines (1st Div) tend to be better looking and do better with the ladies while East Coast Marines (2nd Div) have fleas.
Post by: wingnutx on September 22, 2006, 09:05:54 AM
Because sheep would be too obvious.
Thank you, try the veal.
Post by: garrettwc on September 22, 2006, 10:25:30 AM
Post by: Moondoggie on September 22, 2006, 11:52:10 AM
Doczinn; since I retired in '99 I wasn't aware of 4th Marines' Bns being parceled out to other regiments. A thought occured to me...I'll bet it was a move to make Marine Regiments more closely resemble their Army counterparts since Army Brigades have 4 line Bns and that is their basic unit of employment. I've been involved in planning operations and I can easily see the Army theater commander stipulating a minimum number of personnel per the basic manuever elements for all subordinate commands. The Marines are masters of a concept called "Task Organization", and combining units to form appropriate "packages" of capabilities is one of our hallmarks. Since the Army is undoubtedly running the show on the ground in Iraq, it's no stretch of the imagination to see how this could come about.
Behind the scenes, you have no idea how bitterly the services quarrel over stuff like this. If the Army top brass had their way, there wouldn't be a single Marine on the ground in Iraq. Land warfare and occupation duty are not normally part of the Marine Corps' mission, but every service jealously guards their "relavance" as it equates directly to budget $ from Congress. It's a small step from "We don't need you guys for this one" to "We don't need you guys at all".
Post by: wingnutx on September 22, 2006, 11:57:20 AM
Quote from: Moondoggie
One dictionairy that I consulted defined Squid as a lower order of Marine life.
Mine defines a squid as a creature that scoots around the ocean, pooping on marine life.
Post by: doczinn on September 22, 2006, 02:19:54 PM
Quote
since I retired in '99 I wasn't aware of 4th Marines' Bns being parceled out to other regiments. A thought occured to me...I'll bet it was a move to make Marine Regiments more closely resemble their Army counterparts since Army Brigades have 4 line Bns and that is their basic unit of employment.
I got to 1st Marines in '96, and it was already so. Don't know when it happened. Another theory for why they would do it (based on nothing other than my own thoughts): It's a way to eliminate all the administration crap of a full regiment, yet still have a regiment's worth of grunts ready. Then if you need another, you just pull 'em all in and staff up a HQ Company.
Post by: Moondoggie on September 22, 2006, 03:37:40 PM
Back in the '70's after the VietNam drawdowns 7th Marines consisted of about 150 folks. Just enough to keep it "active". 5th Marines wasn't full strength, either.
The Marines have always been the bastard children of DOD, battling for every scrap of $ we can get. It's gotten a lot better in recent years...geez a Marine General is even Chairman of the JCS. I'll bet THAT has Curtis LeMay and others rolling in their graves! A lot of top brass figured that the Marines would cease to exist after WWII, since the Army now had amphibious landing capabilities. When Adm Nimitz saw the photo of the flag raising on Mt Suribachi he remarked "This picture gaurantees the existence of the Marine Corps for the next 100 years!"
Post by: Matthew Carberry on September 23, 2006, 01:50:45 PM
Quote from: fistful
I didn't know Marines were interested in ladies. Thought they liked boys.
No, see you're thinking of the Navy again where the ship's "pursers" (they carry purses right?) take care of the "coxswains".The Marine's ARE a department/u] of the Navy....
The MEN's Department.
Post by: Moondoggie on September 23, 2006, 02:41:37 PM
at least nobody ever referred to us Jarheads as "Semen".
Post by: Perd Hapley on September 23, 2006, 03:28:39 PM
Post by: Matthew Carberry on September 24, 2006, 12:08:21 PM
Quote from: fistful
Well, if you all had some.
We spent it all in Navy wives and girlfriends.
Post by: Moondoggie on September 24, 2006, 12:45:23 PM
Post by: Perd Hapley on September 24, 2006, 01:19:54 PM
Post by: Moondoggie on September 24, 2006, 02:16:48 PM
I've boffed more than one squid's significant other, but no squid has ever boffed one of mine.
Deal with it.
Another glass of Beaujolais and I promise to be much wittier and charming.
Post by: Al Lowe on September 24, 2006, 05:24:40 PM
Quote from: GunnySkox
Hi, everybody,
Like, why is the 101st Airborne Division the 101?
The 101st Airborne started out as the 101st Infantry Division. As did the 82nd "All American" (that's why they have AA on their shoulder patch. I might be wrong, but I don't believe the US Army had many permanent divisions prior to WWI. The primary element was the regiment, and they would be moved around as needed. This pretty much changed around WWI, and became more solidified in WWII. In WWII, the primary element became the division, which could be moved from one corps to another as needed.
Like, why is the 101st Airborne Division the 101?
Post by: Perd Hapley on September 24, 2006, 05:32:24 PM
Quote from: Moondoggie
Sometimes, Fistful, the truth just hurts.
I've boffed more than one squid's significant other, but no squid has ever boffed one of mine.
Deal with it.
Another glass of Beaujolais and I promise to be much wittier and charming.
Don't worry about me, I was in the Army. We have access to women that the rest of you can only dream of. Don't tell anybody that I let you jarheads know about that.
I've boffed more than one squid's significant other, but no squid has ever boffed one of mine.
Deal with it.
Another glass of Beaujolais and I promise to be much wittier and charming.
Post by: doczinn on September 24, 2006, 05:38:59 PM
I know, 'cause I've had two of 'em.
Post by: Matthew Carberry on September 25, 2006, 08:03:23 AM
Quote from: fistful
Carebear, that is so wrong.
If assisting fellow "Navy family" family members in their times of loneliness is wrong, I don't wanna be right. Did a Battle Griffen in Norway. Figured out when the liberated Norgie girls showered at the communal facility in Elvesgarmon. They didn't mind the company.
Euros are so healthy and well-adjusted when it comes to things like that.
Post by: Al Lowe on September 25, 2006, 11:08:32 AM
Post by: Perd Hapley on September 25, 2006, 11:12:44 AM
Post by: Al Lowe on September 25, 2006, 11:21:45 AM
Quote from: fistful
You mean it's a joke?
I was trying to be nice. 
Post by: 13thCavalry on March 18, 2017, 07:26:56 PM
Units in fraction form at least in the Army have a Headquarters within the Regiment such as 4/5 Cavalry Regiment. A regiment numbered with a hyphen does not have a Headquarters within the Regiment. Such as the Cavalry Regiment i was in, 2-13 Cavalry Regiment. Another example is the 1-77 AR BN "Insiste Firmiter", does not have an HQ. The 77th Armored Regiment is one of few units that is both a battalion and a Regiment at the same time. A product of the Army reorganization that took place few years back.
13th Cavalry "It Shall Be Done"
Post by: Hawkmoon on March 18, 2017, 10:18:09 PM
Post by: AmbulanceDriver on March 19, 2017, 02:39:40 PM
Post by: Scout26 on March 20, 2017, 12:53:09 PM
I came across this in the forum and just think this should be added for people wanting more elaboration on the 2nd part of the question. Especially since a lot of Army units were used as examples.
Units in fraction form at least in the Army have a Headquarters within the Regiment such as 4/5 Cavalry Regiment. A regiment numbered with a hyphen does not have a Headquarters within the Regiment. Such as the Cavalry Regiment i was in, 2-13 Cavalry Regiment. Another example is the 1-77 AR BN "Insiste Firmiter", does not have an HQ. The 77th Armored Regiment is one of few units that is both a battalion and a Regiment at the same time. A product of the Army reorganization that took place few years back.
13th Cavalry "It Shall Be Done"
I managed to get the Battalion Commander of 5-77 Armor fired one REFORGER....(truth be told, he actually did it to himself. I'm just the one that got to tell the MG Waller what happened.)
Post by: markdido on March 21, 2017, 01:58:37 PM
Sometimes, Fistful, the truth just hurts.
I've boffed more than one squid's significant other, but no squid has ever boffed one of mine.
Deal with it.
Another glass of Beaujolais and I promise to be much wittier and charming.
Maybe that because squids aren't into same sex, sex?
Well, maybe the sub guys.
Post by: Jocassee on March 21, 2017, 04:17:12 PM
I managed to get the Battalion Commander of 5-77 Armor fired one REFORGER....(truth be told, he actually did it to himself. I'm just the one that got to tell the MG Waller what happened.)
I need to hear this story.
Post by: Scout26 on March 21, 2017, 05:13:24 PM
"Roger that, Sir." And we moved out of his way.
After we got all the other battalions passed through 2nd Armored Division, I had to go back and debrief the 8th ID commander, MG Calvin Waller* (who later became LTG Waller and Schwarzkopf's Deputy during Desert Storm#) as to the passage of lines and the status of the counter-attack.
He was ready to rip my head off and *expletive deleted*it down my neck because TF 5-77 was not in position and not attacking, and it was obviously the enlisted MPs manning the TCPs fault. Until I explained, that I was there and what the Commander said to me. He then leaned over to one of his aides and *almost* quietly said. "Bring me the scalp of the commander of 5-77."
At that point, my debrief was done, I quickly left the Division TOC and the area...
:O :O :O :O :O
# I would have follow MG Waller through the gates of hell in gasoline soaked underoos. He was very much like GEN Mattis, before there was a GEN Mattis.
* -Simply because Waller was one of the few people able to handle Schwarzkopf and his temper. They were good friends from when Schwarzkopf was BG and ADC for 8th ID and Waller a COL, and commanding 1st Brigade, 8th ID.
From PBS Frontline. An Oral History of the 1991 Gulf War (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/gulf/oral/waller/1.html):
Quote
Q: When you arrived in the headquarters, General Schwarzkopf, it's no secret, had an explosive temper. What was morale like in that regard?
Waller: Well first of all the staff officers were very, very timid .. now you have to bear in mind that General Schwarzkopf was by himself, he had no deputy at that time - he had a chief of staff and other staff officers but he didn't have another senior officer to relieve him of a lot of the responsibility, so he was doing all of the political things that he had to do and he was doing all of the tactical things, so it was incumbent upon me to walk in and try to relieve him of some of those tactical things that needed to be done and leave him to the political entities, but I will tell you that the staff officers appeared to be timid, a little bit like walking around on eggshells, they were very reluctant to give bad news to General Schwarzkopf, for fear that they would cause some minor eruption, and therein was a problem, to make sure that staff officers did not fear saying what needed to be said so that we could get to the bottom of all those issues.
Q: So you found yourself becoming an intermediary between General Schwarzkopf and officers with bad news.....?
Waller: Well, you know, a lot of people have said that the reason why General Cal Waller was sent to Saudi Arabia was to keep General Schwarzkopf at peace with the staff and with the commanders. You know, if that is the truth, no-one ever instructed me that that's the reason why I was being sent to Saudi Arabia or to Riyadh, I was told by General Powell, as well as by the Army Chief of Staff that I was going to Saudi Arabia because of my experience as a ground combat commander and that I was going there to assist General Schwarzkopf with the combat operation since the President had recently made a decision to increase the number of forces there by over 100,000 when it was decided that VII Corps coming out of Germany would be moved from Europe, NATO countries, into Saudi Arabia, so I went there for ground combat and for combat operations more than I did for trying to keep General Schwarzkopf on an even keel. Now it just so happened that that was my fourth time working for General Schwarzkopf and we were friends and had known each other for years and I certainly understood what was required in working with Norman Schwarzkopf.
Post by: Jocassee on March 21, 2017, 07:47:45 PM
Post by: wmenorr67 on March 22, 2017, 10:09:29 AM
I managed to get the Battalion Commander of 5-77 Armor fired one REFORGER....(truth be told, he actually did it to himself. I'm just the one that got to tell the MG Waller what happened.)
At that point, my debrief was done, I quickly left the Division TOC and the area...
:O :O :O :O :O
It is always fun to be the one to do that. Only I usually try to stick around if possible to watch the fireworks.
Post by: Scout26 on March 22, 2017, 03:58:36 PM
as far as that interview answer at the bottom, I HOPE someday I am that smooth.
He was one helluva leader. Got pissed off when on his first time out in the field, they started to lay out the Division China from him to eat breakfast. He told his staff to take it back to garrison and he never wanted to see it in the field again. He then went out to visit one of the maneuver battalions, went to the back of the chow line and waited for everyone else to be fed. Drew an MRE from the box at random from the pile and paid for his meals. Same if they were having Hot A's for dinner, otherwise he drew (paid for and ate) an MRE.
First time I briefed him was when we were out in the field for Caravan Guard. He looked at me, said "You're new to my Division, how long have you been here, and why haven't I met you?"
"Less then 48 hours, Sir. I signed in at 2130 the night before last."
"Good Brief LT. I expect to see you at the Division Hail and Farewell when we get back to garrison."
"Roger that, sir."
Apparently, I was the first MP platoon leader to go to a Division H&F, normally we just went to either a brigade or DISCOM H&F.