Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: MillCreek on June 20, 2014, 10:30:33 AM
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The news of Harley coming out with an electric motorcycle has gotten a fair amount of media attention. Are there major improvements in battery technology out there on the horizon such that we might see a basic electric motorcycle with a 250 mile range for under $ 10,000 within the next several years? I have been reading up on the Zero DS, and it currently has a 120 mile range.
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I'm not a motorcycle rider, but I think it will be directly tied to electric car development, at least outside of normal work, shopping, etc. commuting range.
When you're driving around town, it's no big deal on range because you just come home and plug it in at your house. I have a friend who recently bought a Leaf, and he has taken it on some longer trips, but said it has been somewhat of a hassle regarding charging. He ends up having to plan his route around Nissan dealerships where he stops to plug it in for free charging, and he of course has to wait around till he's charged up. So I'm thinking it's sort of a chicken and egg thing. You'll see more when there are more, and more convenient, charging stations available. Of course you won't see more charging stations until there are enough electric vehicles on the road to make investing in charging stations viable.
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I see a lot of charging stations popping up in the Seattle area, and I continue to be amazed by one thing: (as far as I know) there is not a single uniform charging plug or cable for all electric vehicles. There should be something similar to the standard for a gas pump nozzle: the physical object fits into all cars. The electric vehicle may have different on-board electronics/tranformers, but you should be able to use the same plug or cable at all charging stations. I would think this is a barrier to widespread use.
Do let me know if I am wrong, and there is indeed a common standard for this.
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I confess.I don't care about the technology behind the batteries.
I'm really looking forward to hopping on a quiet bike and enjoying a nice long summers evening ride.A quiet one.
One thing I haven't seen mentioned anywhere has to do with tires.Tires make a heck of a noise.I live about a mile from US131 and there is a constant whoooosh from the donuts.I have a neighbor with a Prius.Quiet car-except for the tires.I hope that tire material formulas change to offer a quieter ride.
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I'm really looking forward to hopping on a quiet bike and enjoying a nice long summers evening ride.A quiet one.
I tend to think most people would be served just fine by a 100mi range; a couple hours of pleasure riding, or an easy commute without having to charge at work would take care of the vast majority of the transit needs. The problem is then having another vehicle (with insurance, registration etc.) for the trips that go farther. Offer a sensible solution (insure the driver instead of the vehicle, since one driver can only drive one at any given time anyway, and move the registration tax to the DL as well) and keep the prices reasonable and I think you'd see stuff like this take off a lot more.
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From what I read, the range really goes down once you hit freeway speeds. The 100 mile range may be for driving around town at surface-street speeds, but I wonder what it would drop to on the freeway. For me, my office is a 16 mile round trip from my home on surface streets, so the electric bike would be perfect for that. But if I have to go visit one of my outlying clinics, that is a 60 mile round trip from the office and longer from home, most of it on the freeway. Could I make it there and back, or would I have to cool my heels for several hours charging from a 110 volt wall socket?
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From what I read, the range really goes down once you hit freeway speeds. The 100 mile range may be for driving around town at surface-street speeds, but I wonder what it would drop to on the freeway. For me, my office is a 16 mile round trip from my home on surface streets, so the electric bike would be perfect for that. But if I have to go visit one of my outlying clinics, that is a 60 mile round trip from the office and longer from home, most of it on the freeway. Could I make it there and back, or would I have to cool my heels for several hours charging from a 110 volt wall socket?
My first thought,the smart aleck one, was to tow a little trailer with a (plugged in)gas generator. :laugh:
A better one though might be to tow a small trailer that contains a battery(ies) and the required cables for extended range.Depending on how big they are I could also see saddlebags utilized as battery carriers.A few options that aren't that inconvenient that could extend the range when required and could help the tech get over the hump?
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Could I make it there and back, or would I have to cool my heels for several hours charging from a 110 volt wall socket?
There are some pretty fast charge stations, like the one below from AeroVironment (think drones) being developed and deployed. Ten minute charge time.
http://evsolutions.avinc.com/products/public_charging/public_charging_b
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^^^ So can you plug that into a Volt, a Prius, a Leaf and a C-Max? Or do charging stations like that only fit one or two types of vehicles, I wonder.
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"Honey,we need to do laundry,the powers out,and it's hot in here.Whatever shall we do?"
"Hmmm."..."I know,let's plug the washing machine into the motorcycle!And the A/C into the car!"
Yeah!Problem solved!
Until you need to go somewhere.
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^^^ So can you plug that into a Volt, a Prius, a Leaf and a C-Max? Or do charging stations like that only fit one or two types of vehicles, I wonder.
I wonder at the toll such rapid charging would take on the batteries?
FTR, when I charge the lipos for my RC aircraft, I place the lipo inside a fireproof bag and that bag inside an ammo can with the lid popped. Leads come out and go to charger. Preferably, all done in the garage on the concrete floor. If not in the garage, on a big slab of stoneware in the kitchen. I have seriously considered buying a small smoke detector to place on top the whole mess.
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I wonder at the toll such rapid charging would take on the batteries?
At the moment, I believe it does shorten the battery life.
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If you only have to do 37.73 miles, you can go fast and have fun.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GceET7MAwww
A little expensive though.
bob
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I wonder at the toll such rapid charging would take on the batteries?
FTR, when I charge the lipos for my RC aircraft, I place the lipo inside a fireproof bag and that bag inside an ammo can with the lid popped. Leads come out and go to charger. Preferably, all done in the garage on the concrete floor. If not in the garage, on a big slab of stoneware in the kitchen. I have seriously considered buying a small smoke detector to place on top the whole mess.
Do you think I should be doing something similar for the LiPo batteries for my new Ryobi 18 volt cordless tool set? I have just been charging them on the workbench out in the garage.
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The news of Harley coming out with an electric motorcycle has gotten a fair amount of media attention. Are there major improvements in battery technology out there on the horizon such that we might see a basic electric motorcycle with a 250 mile range for under $ 10,000 within the next several years? I have been reading up on the Zero DS, and it currently has a 120 mile range.
That cost/range target is tough, but everything else?
How about now? A Mission R gets 105-140 miles on a charge, charges in 30 min direct DC, is 160hp, does 140-150mph, and costs 33-43k.
A 250 mile range bike is -hard-. Motor cycles have comparatively high drag/mass than a car, so packaging sufficient battery is hard.
A typical sportbike needs about 10-15kW to do 60mph (compared to about 20kW for a low drag car) meanings go 250 miles, you would need a 40-60kWh battery. Considering that size battery would weight about 500-800lbs minimum, you start getting diminishing returns.
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I am somewhat amazed that nobody else has yet addressed the absense-of-noise issue.
A major and growing complaint about electric cars, especially the in-town runabouts, is that folks do not hear them coming. Yes, they should stop before entering the crosswalk and look both way, but we all know most folks depend more on hearing an oncoming vehicle than they do on actually seeing it.
Add to that the frequently-posited argument of motorcyclists that they need to have loud exhaust systems so that cagers with the windows up and the ridio at full blast will still be able to become aware the bike is there.
And HD will be bringing another stealth-quiet bike onto the streets/highways. I wonder if they will be supplying cards that will rub against the spokes, or will they sell them only as accessories? (Oh, did I forget that spokes on motorcycle wheels is pretty much a thing of my childhood? :facepalm: )
stay safe.
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Do you think I should be doing something similar for the LiPo batteries for my new Ryobi 18 volt cordless tool set? I have just been charging them on the workbench out in the garage.
The charge controller should ideally be pretty lawyer proof. And the cell phones in everyone's pockets right next to their sensitive junk are almost all LiPo's these days too. And the battery in a quality commercial product should have a thermistor in the circuit somewhere as an additional line of defense. So in actual practice they don't go bad to the point of swelling or fire all that often. A quality charge controller will monitor resistance, impedance, temperature, and voltage and shut off if any of them are wonky.
However rare, accidents do happen, and putting LiPo's somewhere completely safe away from anything flammable won't hurt. [tinfoil]
The RC stuff is often much more basic, and don't have as many protections because the drain is so high they don't last as long as integrated consumer devices which are run much more conservatively, the LiPo's are getting hot anyway because they're run so hard for high RPM DC motors in propellers, quadcopters etc.
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Add to that the frequently-posited argument of motorcyclists that they need to have loud exhaust systems so that cagers with the windows up and the ridio at full blast will still be able to become aware the bike is there.
One of these days, I'd like to see some stats on actual "didn't see him" wrecks specifying whether the bike in question had a normal exhaust or straight pipes. Put a decent horn on the damn thing and let the rest of your neighborhood sleep.
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I see a lot of charging stations popping up in the Seattle area, and I continue to be amazed by one thing: (as far as I know) there is not a single uniform charging plug or cable for all electric vehicles.
There's also not a single standard plug for high power appliances either. Your dryer takes a different plug than your range, and there's a couple choices for each, water heaters are typically hard wired, etc...
There are actually only 3 major connectors
Tesla - Propitiatory/Open sourced - While it was developed by Tesla only, they recently released all the specifications and requirements; anybody can built a tesla type charging station now. Capable of 120kW, with plans to increase to 160kW, they're currently the 'king' in fast charging. Also has the 'nicest' connector at the moment.
SAE J1772 - US & European manufacturers. 19kW at the moment, a 90kW standard is 'coming soon'.
CHAdeMO - Japanese standard; 62.5kW max
Tesla also gives it's owners a J1772 adapter cable along with a pile of other cables ranging from standard outlet 15A110V all the way to 50A240V RV connections. So if a Tesla owner visits you overnight and can reach your dryer outlet, they can use it. A maximum of 12 hours later and they have a full charge. They charge a hefty fee for a CHAdeMO cord though, so I wonder what's up with that.
There should be something similar to the standard for a gas pump nozzle: the physical object fits into all cars. The electric vehicle may have different on-board electronics/tranformers, but you should be able to use the same plug or cable at all charging stations. I would think this is a barrier to widespread use.
Pretty much all of them have the capability to use 110V outlets, but things get interesting because over a certain amperage it's better to have the transformer outside of the car, so that's where the special connectors come in because you're doing something like feeding 400V@80A DC over the wires.
that is a 60 mile round trip from the office and longer from home, most of it on the freeway. Could I make it there and back, or would I have to cool my heels for several hours charging from a 110 volt wall socket?
From what I understand you'd be best off spending at least a couple hours there with it plugged in. One benefit of an electric motorcycle is that the battery is so much smaller that charging from a 110V socket is practical. I don't think any of them are even capable of using standard EV chargers.
^^^ So can you plug that into a Volt, a Prius, a Leaf and a C-Max? Or do charging stations like that only fit one or two types of vehicles, I wonder.
It's a CHAdeMO charger, thus:
Volt No(J1772)
Prius plug-in J1772? (http://toyota.leviton.com/solutions/prius-plugin)
Leaf Yes(but modern ones also have J1772)
C-Max plug-in hybrid : J1772
On the other hand, you're covered if you installed a J1772 charger instead. Still, 3 of the 4 are hybrids and not EVs, so shouldn't even really NEED a fast-charger. Or be capable of benefiting all that much, most of these have a battery around 6 kWh, so from empty to full is only 5 hours on a bottom barrel socket.
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They need to standardize the battery types - so when one runs low you stop in at the "fuel" station and merely pop out the old one and pop in the charged pack.
Anybody that thinks average Americans are going to sit around twiddling for an hour or more to charge up their car is nuts. People get pissed off when their dang computer is 2 seconds slow to load a page.......
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Quote from: vaskidmark on Today at 01:10:37 PM
Add to that the frequently-posited argument of motorcyclists that they need to have loud exhaust systems so that cagers with the windows up and the ridio at full blast will still be able to become aware the bike is there.
One of these days, I'd like to see some stats on actual "didn't see him" wrecks specifying whether the bike in question had a normal exhaust or straight pipes. Put a decent horn on the damn thing and let the rest of your neighborhood sleep.
I have never understood the I need the noise so they see me thinking. I have been riding on the street since I was 12 years old, and I am nearly old enough to draw social security at this point.
First of all, the noise is essentially being directed behind you, how does that help in the most common of MC vs 4 wheel accidents, the left turn in front of bike because "I didn't see him"?
Secondly, noise is dependent on engine output, if someone pulls out in front of you, I really don't think you will give it gas to increase noise, will you? I hope you are braking and avoiding as best you can.
My strategy is wear bright colors, run with bright beams on all the time and pay attention to every one who is trying to kill me. I also installed a Stebel Nautilus horn, nearly 130dB of noise. This winter will be the installation of a strip of forward facing LEDs on each fork, if I can figure it out, they will be set up to strobe fairly fast. I an also going to add a strip of red LEDs to the back of my panniers.
I really want to make it to Social Security, after all, I want to be a triple dipper!!!! =D
OK, now back to the inefficiency of electric vehicles for the masses due to poor battery technology. ;)
bob
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Do you think I should be doing something similar for the LiPo batteries for my new Ryobi 18 volt cordless tool set? I have just been charging them on the workbench out in the garage.
Mostly what AJD wrote. If you packaged the hobby lipos in thick plastic and produced 100,000 of them you'd probably get quality control similar to what we see in tool batts.
OTOH, plenty of handy RC hobbyists have replaced their tool batteries with hobby lipos and reported zip <snaps fingers> for management circuitry in the batts (which is where the heat will accumulate). I suspect a tiny but pretty sensitive fuse/thermistor that fails pretty easy so that instead of discharging all the stored energy PDQ, the thermistor fails and you got yourself a dead tool batt. But since smarter guys than I dissected the old tool batts and found zip, I am not so sanguine.
Here is a deliberate closed circuit lipo fire. Looks like 4 cells or ~14V.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdfBd92nEcQ
That was from a whipped/worn out lipo.
Utah Flyers put out some good skinny on lipos:
http://utahflyers.org/video-mainmenu-28/16-lipo-safety/21-lipo-fires-1
Haven't seen these and learned more just reading and watching, despite having read and watching other videos years back. UFO was more deliberate and sought to find ways to ameliorate a lipo fire. Matter of fact, I am changing my charging regimen to a cinderblock bunker with a ziplock bag full of sand as a lid (simple, elegant). In the garage.
As for the tool batts:
1. Charge on non-flammable surface and use a cover that won't pop off. You still might get noxious smoke in the house, but less likely you'll lose the house.
2. Charge when you are nearby to keep an eye on them.
3. Take them off the charger when done.
4. Store in ammo can with vent hole.
I might be getting chicken as I get older, but things like gas cans and high-capacity batteries give me more worry than in years past. My gas cans are now in the shed, not the garage.
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They need to standardize the battery types - so when one runs low you stop in at the "fuel" station and merely pop out the old one and pop in the charged pack.
Anybody that thinks average Americans are going to sit around twiddling for an hour or more to charge up their car is nuts. People get pissed off when their dang computer is 2 seconds slow to load a page.......
A Tesla supercharger can give you 80% charge in 20 minutes.
As for a standardized battery pack, again Tesla seems to be doing this in that the X uses the same fittings as the S. They even have fast swap capability, but at over a thousand pounds for the battery pack you're looking at a system that's built like what they use to load bombs onto planes.
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I am somewhat amazed that nobody else has yet addressed the absense-of-noise issue.
A major and growing complaint about electric cars, especially the in-town runabouts, is that folks do not hear them coming. Yes, they should stop before entering the crosswalk and look both way, but we all know most folks depend more on hearing an oncoming vehicle than they do on actually seeing it.
Add to that the frequently-posited argument of motorcyclists that they need to have loud exhaust systems so that cagers with the windows up and the ridio at full blast will still be able to become aware the bike is there.
And HD will be bringing another stealth-quiet bike onto the streets/highways. I wonder if they will be supplying cards that will rub against the spokes, or will they sell them only as accessories? (Oh, did I forget that spokes on motorcycle wheels is pretty much a thing of my childhood? :facepalm: )
stay safe.
Check the vid. It aint silent. Its not loud like a twin, but they did something to make it noisy.
I like the idea of electric bikes. Once they're economicaly viable, an electric dual sport is in my future
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Its not loud like a twin, but they did something to make it noisy.
Playing cards in the spokes??? =D
bob
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P54sjBdYhwQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdaEX5jh5Lk
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im dying laughing at the dubbed in stuff on the second vid. I cant find the original. lol
EDIT: found it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7u9DTfE14M
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All-electric vehicles will become something other than early adopter and hobbyist toys when the convenience matches the IC engine. This means charging times in minutes rather than hours.
I look at it this way:
Should I forget to get gas in my FJ, I can make a 5-minute stop on the way to work and still be on time.
Should I forget to plug in a Zero, I'm looking at taking a half-day off so that I can charge the thing.
Also, when I ran out of gas on the road, I walked to a station, got a bottle of gas, walked back, and was going again in a minute. An electric vehicle in this situation is at least a tow, at most an expensive battery replacement.
We need to radically improve either how we store energy, or how we convert it. Science ought to get it's stuff together and have a major breakthrough. Weren't we supposed to have a Mr. Fusion by now?
As far as the cost, electricity to charge them is only cheaper than gas until there is a large enough number of EVs for the gasoline tax revenue to start dropping.
WRT to noise and motorcycles, from where I sit, "loud pipes save lives" is 100% BS. From the rider perspective, I've been damn near run off the road multiple times on a bike that had shorty mufflers burnt out so as to be essentially straight pipes. From the driver perspective, sure, I can hear your oversized fart machine, but the sound is not directional, it reflects and seems to be coming from freaking everywhere, and if you insist on riding in the blind spot of my truck, I still have no idea where you are. Not being a dumbass and paying attention goes a far longer way towards not being run over than making noise.
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WRT to noise and motorcycles, from where I sit, "loud pipes save lives" is 100% BS. From the rider perspective, I've been damn near run off the road multiple times on a bike that had shorty mufflers burnt out so as to be essentially straight pipes. From the driver perspective, sure, I can hear your oversized fart machine, but the sound is not directional, it reflects and seems to be coming from freaking everywhere, and if you insist on riding in the blind spot of my truck, I still have no idea where you are. Not being a dumbass and paying attention goes a far longer way towards not being run over than making noise.
I'm a rider, and I hate Hate HATE unmuffled v-twin racket with the fire of a thousand blue-white suns. I just do. It's way beyond logical.
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I'm a rider, and I hate Hate HATE unmuffled v-twin racket with the fire of a thousand blue-white suns. I just do. It's way beyond logical.
So you don't like the sound of a Ducati? There is a difference between a low-rev 45deg twin and a high rev 90deg twin.
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So you don't like the sound of a Ducati? There is a difference between a low-rev 45deg twin and a high rev 90deg twin.
oddly, just about every Ducati rider I've ever met has been a *expletive deleted*bag... I have no idea why those bikes attract those people...
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We need to radically improve either how we store energy, or how we convert it. Science ought to get it's stuff together and have a major breakthrough. Weren't we supposed to have a Mr. Fusion by now?
Switching to electric is a massive increase in conversion efficiency, from something like 20% to around 90%. But the current battery systems are limited, despite massive research.
As for range, one option is to go with an aluminum-air battery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium%E2%80%93air_battery), but it's a non-rechargable primary cell. But at 1300 Wh/kg(and a lot higher theoretically), compared to LiIon's 100-265 Wh/kg, it can provide range enough for anyone.
As far as the cost, electricity to charge them is only cheaper than gas until there is a large enough number of EVs for the gasoline tax revenue to start dropping.
road tax isn't that high. It'll kill a good chunk of the difference though.
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Switching to electric is a massive increase in conversion efficiency, from something like 20% to around 90%. But the current battery systems are limited, despite massive research.
As far as the cost, electricity to charge them is only cheaper than gas until there is a large enough number of EVs for the gasoline tax revenue to start dropping.
One option is to go with an aluminum-air battery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium%E2%80%93air_battery), but it's a non-rechargable primary cell. But at 1300 Wh/kg(and a lot higher theoretically), compared to LiIon's 100-265 Wh/kg, it can provide range enough for anyone.
Actually conversion efficiency is closer to 70%
Round trip efficiency on a battery is 80-90% (depending, high performance lithium batterie far cars are actually closer to the 80% number due to internal resistance losses on peak discharge, also the faster you discharge or charge the lower the efficiency)
A motor is 90-95% or so
Also, that electricity came from somewhere, so let's say its the highest thermal efficiency type of power plant, a ICCGT (integrated combined cycle gas turbine), at about 45-50%
Total cycle is then about 30-35%
High performance gasoline engine is about 25%
So an electric is at most about 1.2-1.4x as efficient whole cycle as a gas engine, and about the same as a diesel.
The issue with aluminum/air is discharge rate, as surface effects with air cells tend to cause limitations in power performance
Also, on the cost issue, its not necessarily cheaper, its actually either a cost shift (increased vehicle cost vs identical specs at lower recurring cost) or due to apples and oranges--EVs tend to be more efficient in their utilization of energy (better aero, regenerative braking, lower parasitic loads), and a comparison of a hybrid vehicle (especially a diesel hybrid) with identical output specs and payload specs actually shows the hybrid being roughly the same in terms of total cycle efficiency as a pure EV, and with a lower carbon footprint, as diesel or gasoline is lower carbon per unit energy than the average electrical power source (50% coal, 30% NG, 20% nuclear and renewables)
A quote I used before:
If all I wanted was a 400+hp sedan, and all I cared about was carbon footprint, I wouldn't get a Tesla, I'd get a CTS-V, M5, or Merecedes.
oddly, just about every Ducati rider I've ever met has been a *expletive deleted*... I have no idea why those bikes attract those people...
Gee...didn't know you felt that way about me! (I've owned 3) :)
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Gee...didn't know you felt that way about me! (I've owned 3) :)
Well, I haven't met you in person... ;)
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So you don't like the sound of a Ducati? There is a difference between a low-rev 45deg twin and a high rev 90deg twin.
Technically, my V-Strom is a v-twin. It has no comparable audible signature. As you probably know, it's the unmuffled Harley's and Wannabees that cause me such distress.
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(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FGzZFN.jpg&hash=a1dd2156ea749897e2aa39cebf43998b42ce9c53)
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My Harley-riding friends like to say that my V-Strom sounds like 'an angry sewing machine'.
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It opens up some with an aftermarket pipe :-d
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My Harley-riding friends like to say that my V-Strom sounds like 'an angry sewing machine'.
Heh. Having seen sewing machines, I certainly wouldn't want to be around an angry one. It could stab me how many times per second?
Actually conversion efficiency is closer to 70%
By the time you add up all the extraction, shipping, refining, and more shipping costs there's actually lower average carbon footprint for a Tesla being powered by pure coal. Less ancillary pollution as well.
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My Harley-riding friends like to say that my V-Strom sounds like 'an angry sewing machine'.
Does that mean the early VWs were content sewing machines? ;)
bob
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I'd like to see a hybrid with shore power out connection; I live alone, so when I'm there, the car is there. Basically, assuming it can automatically fire up its gas engine when the battery is low, it would become a small, relatively quiet generator and battery backup system. Except for summer, my electric usage is at most five CFLs, a ceiling fan, a couple of small chargers, (shaver and phone) some small powered speakers, a laptop and the refrigerator. The fridge will easily hold safe temps 12-24 hours when the doors are kept shut, and nothing else needs to be on unless I'm there. I can't imagine the fuel cost of that being more than the electric bill with its extra charges for <1000kWh/mo, with the advantage that it would all be completely off when I'm gone.
Depending on the final numbers, the brief periods of AC needed in summer might still not sour the idea completely. The advantage of being able to rig up a tent, cabin or small camper with the same type of setup makes it even more attractive for weekends at the lake or hunting camps.
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I'd like to see a hybrid with shore power out connection;
I think the hybrid F-150 had that feature, don't know if it reached production.
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Are there major improvements in battery technology out there on the horizon such that we might see a basic electric motorcycle with a 250 mile range for under $ 10,000 within the next several years?
No. Batteries do not follow Moore's Law. They are constrained by the limits of chemistry.
Back in the days of Edison batteries had charge densities of around 25W-hrs/kg. Today the best commercially available batteries are around 150W-hrs/kg. Some might be starting to push 200. Even if you take the battery pimp's claim of 400W-hrs/kg you're only talking about a 16x improvement in over 125 years of, at times, massive R&D efforts (and realistically more like 7-8x). Computers, following Moore's law saw that level of improvement (16x) every 6 years.
There are incremental improvements being made, but the sea change that is necessary is simply not on the horizon.
If we want electric vehicles to take over from ICE vehicles it will require something other than batteries to do so. Maybe fuel cells. Maybe super-capacitors. Maybe some new generation of batteries. But as they stand batteries are simply not cut out for the tasks that most people want from their cars. As a niche they might be quite successful, but not as a widespread means of personal transportation.
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I can see fuel cells making the difference, but that's about it, and then only methanol ones, or integrated reformer ones. Hydrogen is simply not dense enough as a transport fuel.
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But as they stand batteries are simply not cut out for the tasks that most people want from their cars. As a niche they might be quite successful, but not as a widespread means of personal transportation.
Proper, roadworthy EVs will do pretty much everything that most people want from their daily commuter as it is: 50-75 mile range, (the average commute is 32mi round trip - no raw data handy to see if that includes train and other park-and-ride commutes) ability to quickly achieve 70mph for any freeway segments, (my old commute was 9 miles, with 7 of that on US75 - avoiding 75 would have added 4-5 miles and about 20 minutes, which eats power with constant loads like lights and AC) and normal car features like air conditioning.
The two main drawbacks to having an EV are pretty much the drawbacks of having multiple vehicles; parking and the extra cost to register and insure two cars when you're still only using the roads as much as you would be with one. Unless you literally never go anywhere beyond your commute, (and never have long power outages in the evening that would keep you from getting a full charge) you're going to need a second car to handle longer trips, so you're stuck with the multiple car expenses which eliminate the advantage of having the EV.
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Interesting and relevant:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwFgDGEOmGo
Simplistic manufacturing process and initial power densities approaching current lithium.
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My Harley-riding friends like to say that my V-Strom sounds like 'an angry sewing machine'.
If they ride unmuffled Harleys, they should appreciate the fact that they can still hear a sewing machine. That won't last long...
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I think the hybrid F-150 had that feature, don't know if it reached production.
GM had that with their hybrid trucks and utilities.Sadly,they were dropped when they axed so many other things in 2009.