Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: onions! on June 26, 2014, 02:27:31 PM
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This morning I read that Iraq was going to take delivery of some used fighters from both Belarus and Russia.
Then,I read this:
http://www.iraqinews.com/iraq-war/iran-transfers-88-russian-sukhoi-fighter-planes-iraq/
Soooo,my question still is,who's pilots are going to fly these?The Iraqi PM said that they'd be in the air and making a difference within a week.From what I read there haven't been Sukhois in the arsenal in decades.It'll take time to (re-)train pilots to fly them.
Or did I miss something?
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28042302
Iraq's Prime Minister Nouri Maliki has told the BBC that he hopes jets from Russia and Belarus will turn the tide against rebels in the coming days.
"God willing within one week this force will be effective and will destroy the terrorists' dens," he said.
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Iranian pilots most likely.
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"God willing " he said.
insha'Allah = it's all in G-d's hands. So if it happens G-d willed it. If it didn't, then G-d didn't want it to. Which means that there's no real plan to do it, just hope.
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Pilots to fly them? I doubt Iran has been doing PM on them for 20 years. I doubt a single plane could manage to get down the runway.
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Pilots to fly them? I doubt Iran has been doing PM on them for 20 years. I doubt a single plane could manage to get down the runway.
Good point.
There seems to be um... "It's the thought that counts" type of stuff in their culture to go with the "Insha'Allah" attitude. =D
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Pilots to fly them? I doubt Iran has been doing PM on them for 20 years. I doubt a single plane could manage to get down the runway.
"He(Maliki-from the BBC linky above) said Iraq was acquiring second-hand jet fighters from Russia and Belarus "that should arrive in Iraq in two or three days"
I suppose it IS a bit vague.I've read fighters re-patriated to Iraq from Iran and others coming from the Putin group.I don't think it's a stretch to believe that the Russian planes would be flyable.
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Pilots to fly them? I doubt Iran has been doing PM on them for 20 years. I doubt a single plane could manage to get down the runway.
Maybe they're hoping some of our transport planes can tow them up to 30,000 or so.
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"He(Maliki-from the BBC linky above) said Iraq was acquiring second-hand jet fighters from Russia and Belarus "that should arrive in Iraq in two or three days"
I suppose it IS a bit vague.I've read fighters re-patriated to Iraq from Iran and others coming from the Putin group.I don't think it's a stretch to believe that the Russian planes would be flyable.
If those, then they might not be wrecks.
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If those, then they might not be wrecks.
Yet. Give them a chance.
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. . . Soooo,my question still is,who's pilots are going to fly these?The Iraqi PM said that they'd be in the air and making a difference within a week . . .
Same kind of folks who helped Iran with their nuke program - unemployed FSU - Former Soviet Union - personnel. ("Volunteers" perhaps, like the ones who flew Mig 15s for the Norks during the Korean War?)
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I think Hank has nailed it. I have no special insight, but I believe you can buy anything from the right Russian, including Russian pilots.
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I think Hank has nailed it. I have no special insight, but I believe you can buy anything from the right Russian, including Russian pilots.
Probably not enough vodka in Iraq to get the Russians to fly those museum pieces.
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Seems to me I recall that there's something different about Russian aircraft instrumentation that could make things VERY interesting for any pilot trained to fly American or western European planes. IIRC it's the artificial horizon -- something about it operating reverse from the way ours do, which can be disorienting to pilots not fully accustomed to it.
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Seems to me I recall that there's something different about Russian aircraft instrumentation that could make things VERY interesting for any pilot trained to fly American or western European planes. IIRC it's the artificial horizon -- something about it operating reverse from the way ours do, which can be disorienting to pilots not fully accustomed to it.
I recall that the USAF had gotten their hands on a mig15 or mig17 and they brought Chuck Yeager out to evaluate it and find its limits. I recall two bits about that:
1. I think Chuck liked it.
2. Years later when speaking with Russian pilot about the mig model in question, the Russian pilot thought Yeager was nuts for pushing it the way he had.
So maybe you're right, not enough vodka and crazy Russian pilots.
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Yeager got to be buds with Viktor Belenko, who absconded to Japan with a Mig Foxbat. As the US studied more, the less capable the Mig-25 seemed to be. Mighty damned fast, tho'. It was originally designed to be able to intercept the B-70. D'oh!
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Yeager got to be buds with Viktor Belenko, who absconded to Japan with a Mig Foxbat. As the US studied more, the less capable the Mig-25 seemed to be. Mighty damned fast, tho'. It was originally designed to be able to intercept the B-70. D'oh!
The MiG 25 Foxbat was fairly capable -- but only within a narrow parameter ascribed primarily to an interceptor.
American fighter tech advanced well but the tech was so expensive the plane was normally designed to do more than one particular task well; that is to be as adaptable as possible. The F-15 Eagle has proven to be such a vehicle. The Russians, being not quite as developed, didn't play that game. They tended to design their planes for one specific task, and be as good as possible at it.
The Foxbat was clocked flying over a mideast country and landing in Egypt once at Mach 3+ speeds. This was well above what similar American Fighters could do (the SR 71 was not considered a "fighter" at the time). This scared the **** out of American Inteligence. The fact it's engines had fried themselves into crispy critters and were replaced didn't raise eyebrows since we didn't "get" the idea that a pilot would deliberatly do that to a plane as it might prove suicidal (!! ya THINK!!!). With Viktor Belenko's defection came the knowledge this was a common occurance at Mach 3+ speeds and pilots were therefor forbidden to push the Foxbat that fast for no good reason.
It's mid 1970s radar suite was full of vacuum tube electronics, which shocked us regarding its primitiveness, until it was pointed out the radar was so powerful it literally burned through many electronic countermeasures we had. In fact, operating the radar while running along on the ground taxiing , landing, or taking off would would often cook any small animals that the radar beam intercepted. Belenko said one Russian high officer who was reported to be rather an animal lover issued standing orders not to turn the radar on until after take off and to turn it off before landing, due to this.
It had an fuselage made with aluminum which made American experts wonder how it could be a Mach 3 jet as the friction would melt it. Belenko respponded that at high altitude, the air was thinner, the friction therefor was less and the machine could withstand the forces there, so they simply didn't fly it fast at lower altitudes.
Insofar as dogfighting abilities, it had none. It couldn't take on an F-15 Eagle --- in fact, it could not out dogfight an older F-4 Phantom.
It's role was as an interceptor ONLY and it had been designed solely to counter the B-70 Valkyrie. America cancelled that worthy craft but beurocratic inertia in the Russian system kept the Foxbat production going ... after all, it WAS a triumph of Russian high tech -- after all, it scared the **** out us. >:D
Belenko made some other revelations about the Foxbat that revealed that even in its primary role to kill the Valkyrie, it would not, in fact, have been able to do very well at that. But, hey, it SCARED American Air Force Jocks!
After we tore Belenko's MiG-25 apart at the Japanese airport, we boxed up the parts, and shipped them back to the Soviets, embarrassing them, and displeasing Viktor Belenko, who had considered the plane a gift to America, a country he had hopes of moving to and obtaining citizenship.
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The MiG 25 Foxbat was fairly capable -- but only within a narrow parameter ascribed primarily to an interceptor.
American fighter tech advanced well but the tech was so expensive the plane was normally designed to do more than one particular task well; that is to be as adaptable as possible. The F-15 Eagle has proven to be such a vehicle. The Russians, being not quite as developed, didn't play that game. They tended to design their planes for one specific task, and be as good as possible at it.
The Foxbat was clocked flying over a mideast country and landing in Egypt once at Mach 3+ speeds. This was well above what similar American Fighters could do (the SR 71 was not considered a "fighter" at the time). This scared the **** out of American Inteligence. The fact it's engines had fried themselves into crispy critters and were replaced didn't raise eyebrows since we didn't "get" the idea that a pilot would deliberatly do that to a plane as it might prove suicidal (!! ya THINK!!!). With Viktor Belenko's defection came the knowledge this was a common occurance at Mach 3+ speeds and pilots were therefor forbidden to push the Foxbat that fast for no good reason.
It's mid 1970s radar suite was full of vacuum tube electronics, which shocked us regarding its primitiveness, until it was pointed out the radar was so powerful it literally burned through many electronic countermeasures we had. In fact, operating the radar while running along on the ground taxiing , landing, or taking off would would often cook any small animals that the radar beam intercepted. Belenko said one Russian high officer who was reported to be rather an animal lover issued standing orders not to turn the radar on until after take off and to turn it off before landing, due to this.
It had an fuselage made with aluminum which made American experts wonder how it could be a Mach 3 jet as the friction would melt it. Belenko respponded that at high altitude, the air was thinner, the friction therefor was less and the machine could withstand the forces there, so they simply didn't fly it fast at lower altitudes.
Insofar as dogfighting abilities, it had none. It couldn't take on an F-15 Eagle --- in fact, it could not out dogfight an older F-4 Phantom.
It's role was as an interceptor ONLY and it had been designed solely to counter the B-70 Valkyrie. America cancelled that worthy craft but beurocratic inertia in the Russian system kept the Foxbat production going ... after all, it WAS a triumph of Russian high tech -- after all, it scared the **** out us. >:D
Belenko made some other revelations about the Foxbat that revealed that even in its primary role to kill the Valkyrie, it would not, in fact, have been able to do very well at that. But, hey, it SCARED American Air Force Jocks!
After we tore Belenko's MiG-25 apart at the Japanese airport, we boxed up the parts, and shipped them back to the Soviets, embarrassing them, and displeasing Viktor Belenko, who had considered the plane a gift to America, a country he had hopes of moving to and obtaining citizenship.
Wow! Great post dude!
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Wow! Great post dude!
Seconded.
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The MiG 25 Foxbat was fairly capable -- but only within a narrow parameter ascribed primarily to an interceptor.
American fighter tech advanced well but the tech was so expensive the plane was normally designed to do more than one particular task well; that is to be as adaptable as possible. The F-15 Eagle has proven to be such a vehicle. The Russians, being not quite as developed, didn't play that game. They tended to design their planes for one specific task, and be as good as possible at it.
The Foxbat was clocked flying over a mideast country and landing in Egypt once at Mach 3+ speeds. This was well above what similar American Fighters could do (the SR 71 was not considered a "fighter" at the time). This scared the **** out of American Inteligence. The fact it's engines had fried themselves into crispy critters and were replaced didn't raise eyebrows since we didn't "get" the idea that a pilot would deliberatly do that to a plane as it might prove suicidal (!! ya THINK!!!). With Viktor Belenko's defection came the knowledge this was a common occurance at Mach 3+ speeds and pilots were therefor forbidden to push the Foxbat that fast for no good reason.
It's mid 1970s radar suite was full of vacuum tube electronics, which shocked us regarding its primitiveness, until it was pointed out the radar was so powerful it literally burned through many electronic countermeasures we had. In fact, operating the radar while running along on the ground taxiing , landing, or taking off would would often cook any small animals that the radar beam intercepted. Belenko said one Russian high officer who was reported to be rather an animal lover issued standing orders not to turn the radar on until after take off and to turn it off before landing, due to this.
It had an fuselage made with aluminum which made American experts wonder how it could be a Mach 3 jet as the friction would melt it. Belenko respponded that at high altitude, the air was thinner, the friction therefor was less and the machine could withstand the forces there, so they simply didn't fly it fast at lower altitudes.
Insofar as dogfighting abilities, it had none. It couldn't take on an F-15 Eagle --- in fact, it could not out dogfight an older F-4 Phantom.
It's role was as an interceptor ONLY and it had been designed solely to counter the B-70 Valkyrie. America cancelled that worthy craft but beurocratic inertia in the Russian system kept the Foxbat production going ... after all, it WAS a triumph of Russian high tech -- after all, it scared the **** out us. >:D
Belenko made some other revelations about the Foxbat that revealed that even in its primary role to kill the Valkyrie, it would not, in fact, have been able to do very well at that. But, hey, it SCARED American Air Force Jocks!
After we tore Belenko's MiG-25 apart at the Japanese airport, we boxed up the parts, and shipped them back to the Soviets, embarrassing them, and displeasing Viktor Belenko, who had considered the plane a gift to America, a country he had hopes of moving to and obtaining citizenship.
From what I understand the Mig 25 was mostly stainless steel with a limited amount of aluminum and titanium. The Russians would have preferred to use Titanium but the expense and technical difficulties precluded it.
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From what I understand the Mig 25 was mostly stainless steel with a limited amount of aluminum and titanium. The Russians would have preferred to use Titanium but the expense and technical difficulties precluded it.
??? Maybe .... the thing I recall most was that it would not have withstood friction at high mach speeds at low altitude so the Russians simply limited the high speeds for upper atmospheric performance where the air is thinner. The book I read made it seems the Americans were somehow surprised at this yet it seemed to me it's basic physics.
The Russians did not have the high-tech ingenuity we Americans had. That doesn't mean they were dumb and they were often both very practical and imaginative in how they designed their jets. For example the MiG-15, while not as good in some ways as the roughly equivelant F-86 Sabre we had, had a suite of cannons and machineguns mounted on a pallet under the nose. The whole thing could be switched out en masse with a preloaded one to "reload" the weapons during wartime conditions, a design element Americans apparently never learned and certainly did not have in the Sabre Fighterjet.
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Apparently only seven Sukhois went to Iran.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28125687
"Contrary to Iraqi wishes, these aircraft were retained and later brought into Iranian service."
"Of course it is much harder to determine who is actually flying the aircraft."
"Imagery analysis," he says, "makes this the most logical conclusion. The markings, serial numbers and camouflage all fit with what we know of the Iranian fleet."
"Ironically, the majority of these aircraft used to be part of the Iraqi Air Force - seven Su-25s sought refuge in Iran during the First Gulf War."
Interesting.I wonder if the American drones will be targeted by the Iranians?
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Su 25s ....
Saw pictures of them on cable TV news. IIRC they are Cold War era relics that were ground attack aircraft roughly like our A-10 Warthog just not as ugly or able. But probably effective enough for their intended use.
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Su 25s ....
Saw pictures of them on cable TV news. IIRC they are Cold War era relics that were ground attack aircraft roughly like our A-10 Warthog just not as ugly or able. But probably effective enough for their intended use.
We, OTOH, are getting ready to send them 30+ F-16s. Air superiority fighters. Because, you know, ISIS has such an impressive air force.
They'll have pilots trained up in a couple years, so they can use them against us or our allies.
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I know we aren't
cold realistic enough to do this, but I harbor fanatsies that one day we'll find out that all the advanced military hardware we sell everyone has a shutdown code hardwired in to it.
Like the Cylons, we'll precede our attack with a shutdown signal and everything will just .......stop.
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I know we aren't cold realistic enough to do this, but I harbor fanatsies that one day we'll find out that all the advanced military hardware we sell everyone has a shutdown code hardwired in to it.
Like the Cylons, we'll precede our attack with a shutdown signal and everything will just .......stop.
That would make way too much sense. Too bad we didn't infest all the left-behind uniforms and such that ISIS already has with something quick and painful.
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I know we aren't cold realistic enough to do this, but I harbor fanatsies that one day we'll find out that all the advanced military hardware we sell everyone has a shutdown code hardwired in to it.
Like the Cylons, we'll precede our attack with a shutdown signal and everything will just .......stop.
Almost every bit of high tech kit has that. All that is required is that us.gov suspend maintenence and repair agreements and refuse to sell spare parts. Soon enough the hardware will be useless.
The amount of upkeep required to keep jets and armored vehicles ready to go is prodigeous.
If most of them were not flush with oil money or foreign aid money they would be hard pressed to keep a leg infantry division in bullets and beans and combat effective.
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The amount of upkeep required to keep jets and armored vehicles ready to go is prodigeous.
Jets, sure, but the hard part of an armored truck is the armor. Even if they blow the engine, I'm betting they can rig a whole new powertrain from whatever heavy-duty trucks they can get their hands on. Plus the maintenance parts for all the small arms left behind for them to pick up are easily mail ordered and/or fabricated by any decent machinist.
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Jets, sure, but the hard part of an armored truck is the armor. Even if they blow the engine, I'm betting they can rig a whole new powertrain from whatever heavy-duty trucks they can get their hands on. Plus the maintenance parts for all the small arms left behind for them to pick up are easily mail ordered and/or fabricated by any decent machinist.
Light armor is of no matter. Any munition 12.7mm or larger diam will turn it into scrap. And there are no or few higher tech systems attached to exportable light armor.
And do not assume all these skeevy countries have the human skills in abundance to go all dukes of hazzard with their entire complement of vehicles.
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And do not assume all these skeevy countries have the human skills in abundance to go all dukes of hazzard with their entire complement of vehicles.
Have you looked at their current complement of vehicles? The A Team had less cobbled together crap.
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And do not assume all these skeevy countries have the human skills in abundance to go all dukes of hazzard with their entire complement of vehicles.
I dunno about that. I've seen some crazy examples of redneck engineering in the Mid East. I would not be surprised that much to find that someone had bolted 6 HiLux engines together and installed them in a M1A1. They get some crazy shot working.
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A few years ago I took a taxi in Peru. It sounded a lot like a diesel, so I asked. It WAS a diesel. The car was a Ford Crown Victoria, but someone had swapped in a small-ish Nissan diesel engine mated to a five-speed on the column manual transmission.