Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: MechAg94 on September 24, 2014, 11:18:07 AM
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http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/sep/23/obama-salutes-marines-with-coffee-cup/
I saw this article posted on DrudgeReport.com. It brought a quesiton to mind. Maybe the question is for veterans only, I don't know.
When President Bush II returned salutes from the military, it made sense to me since he served in the military before even if not active duty. With a President with no prior miliatary service, should he salute at all? I guess I don't remember noticing this stuff earlier so I don't remember what other past Presidents did. It seems to me that a President with no prior military service was never in the habit of saluting. He would be almost guaranteed to screw it up at some point. Would military members prefer a salute even if not correct or rather they just didn't bother?
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I remember during the Reagan years, some in the press had a problem with RR returning a salute because he " . . . wasn't in uniform . . ." at the time. At the time, the response was that as Commander-in-Chief, he could salute any time he wanted to.
I've never seen a President salute with military precision every time, but I can only imagine what the press response would have been had Reagan (or either Bush) returned a salute while holding a coffee cup in his right hand. :facepalm:
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Was FDR ever in the military? (other than being Sec of Navy)
I remember a story about him returning a salute from some soldiers/sailors during WW2.
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Be sure to compare and contrast the President Bush dog salute with the President Obama coffeecup salute.
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From a current member of the military perspective we aren't saluting/respecting the person rather than the office. If rendered a salute it is common courtesy to return it if possible.
Now in the respect to Obama saluting with a cup of coffee in his right hand that is all kinds of dicked up. How many times has he disembarked Marine One and knows damn well that there are two Marines waiting for him and they salute.
There are a bunch of liberal asshats posting pics of Bush saluting while holding a dog, which he shouldn't have done. It would appear he got caught off guard with the salute and he could've acknowledge with a nod of the head and gone about his way with no harm done.
Once again you aren't saluting the person but the office.
Had an officer's spouse try to chew me out one day when working the gate at Ft Campbell because I failed to salute her. I told her that I was sorry I failed to salute the decal on her window that showed her husband was an officer. >:D :facepalm:
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^^^ Well, I think President Bush made an honest effort to return the salute properly, but the dog was in the way.
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Was FDR ever in the military? (other than being Sec of Navy)
I remember a story about him returning a salute from some soldiers/sailors during WW2.
You mean other than being CinC? :P
The dude, no matter who it is in office, is the commander in chief of the armed forces. So yes he can salute. No headgear needed because we are not yet issuing our presidents awesome 3rd world tinpot faux military uniforms with lots of epaulets and fretting.
Now should he return a salute? well, he can do as he pleases, I just know what I have always thought of any officer who couldn't be bothered to render a proper salute in return.
I'd be more interested in how the first lady treats the Marines. It is well known that hillary treated them like sub-human filth, but we have better press censors this time around.
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All I care a if your going to salute a Soldier, Sailor, Marine or Airman-----do it right for *expletive deleted*s sake.
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All I care a if your going to salute a Soldier, Sailor, Marine or Airman-----do it right for *expletive deleted*s sake.
Eeeeyup.
Obama messed up. Pointing out that past presidents might have messed up doesn't absolve Obama. Maybe Bush ought to have put Barney down. Whatever; that was then and bad on Bush then.
Bad on Obama NOW.
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You mean other than being CinC?
This, and as CinC, his uniform is pretty much whatever he says it is. Taking that to extremes, however, like adding a disposable coffee cup, is disrespectful.
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Be sure to compare and contrast the President Bush dog salute with the President Obama coffeecup salute.
Unless Barney served some sort of double duty as a fuzzy kettlebell or self-heating Atlas stone, there was probably a good reason Bush was holding him in the first place, which would preclude putting him down to return the salute. Plus there's a big difference between holding something in both hands and trying to return the salute as best one can, and holding a small object that could easily be transferred to the left hand.
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The difference I saw between the Bush and Obama salutes was that Bush looked genuinely disconcerted, like "Oh crap, I need to salute!" and was trying to fix/mitigate his screwup. Obama looked like, "Not this crap again! Talk to the hand".
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According to Army regs, you arent' supposed to salute a superior when both hands of the superior are occupied. So, the bush photo with the dog, he shouldn't have been saluted to begin with.
A cup of coffee does not encumbered make
That said, this stupid salute garbage is about the lamest criticism of Obama I've seen yet. Why must we fire up the outrage machine for *expletive deleted*it that doesn't matter?
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According to Army regs, you arent' supposed to salute a superior when both hands of the superior are occupied. So, the bush photo with the dog, he shouldn't have been saluted to begin with.
A cup of coffee does not encumbered make
That said, this stupid salute garbage is about the lamest criticism of Obama I've seen yet. Why must we fire up the outrage machine for *expletive deleted* it that doesn't matter?
This ^^^.
I would not be surprised if BHO holds his USMC guards in contempt, though.
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That said, this stupid salute garbage is about the lamest criticism of Obama I've seen yet. Why must we fire up the outrage machine for *expletive deleted* it that doesn't matter?
Because this act was public and petty.
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There are a couple of misconceptions going on here, probably from those without a military background. The president doesn't "get to" salute anyone. The salute is rendered from the inferior to the superior, who is then obliged by custom to return the salute. Not because the big cheese used to be in the military, but because he is serving currently, as Commander-in-Chief. It's not a privilege. It's something he is expected to do.
That said, this stupid salute garbage is about the lamest criticism of Obama I've seen yet. Why must we fire up the outrage machine for *expletive deleted* it that doesn't matter?
No, this is a valid criticism. Maybe not the most substantive criticism, but valid. On the one hand, yeah, I've noticed that officers sometimes find constant salute-returning to be a chore. So I can understand why the Obama would get lackadaisical about it. Still, it is an affront to the Marines who serve him directly, and military personnel generally. It is also telling of his attitude toward the little people who have agreed to give life and limb, if necessary, for their country and for him personally.
So is it on the level of Benghazi? Not even close. Is it as absurd as this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAvq12Sa3VE No. After all, even Commies aren't vile enough to put dijon mustard on, well, anything. Or ketchup.
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Because this act was public and petty.
So, his weak rendition of something he's not actually required to do is the most pressing thing we can criticize him for? Got it.
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There are a couple of misconceptions going on here, probably from those without a military background. The president doesn't "get to" salute anyone. The salute is rendered from the inferior to the superior, who is then obliged by custom to return the salute. Not because the big cheese used to be in the military, but because he is serving currently, as Commander-in-Chief. It's not a privilege. It's something he is expected to do.
The president is not required to return a salute. At all.
Do some more googling
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Another perspective on it:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/01/opinion/01winfrey.html?_r=0
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With the whole latte salute by the President the people are up in arms with half mad and half saying it's not his fault because he's a civilian and there is no law that requires a salute. Regardless if that is true the issue is simple. The military salute is our custom of respect and friendship with roots all the way back to knights raising empty hands to show they were friendly and mean no harm. To salute is the utmost sign of respect by our professional armed services which can be rendered to any rank as a show of respect. Once the Marines rendered their salute to our Commander and Chief and he chose to return the salute he should do so in the proper manner as a show of respect to those Marines. He should do so because it is the right and honorable thing to do. If he needs a law to do that he should examine why he sought office.
A person I have had the privilege of serving with posted this on his FB page earlier. Says it quite well I believe.
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The president is not required to return a salute. At all.
Do some more googling
IIrc, the President returning the salute began with Reagan. It was a sign from him to show he respected them and what they do.
Reagan, with all his failings, was an honorable man,
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The president is not required to return a salute. At all.
Yeah....that's part of the whole "civilian control of the military" thing.
That said, I do find it rather telling, though like you I don't see much reason to do anything other than to maybe say "what an ahole" and move on. There's a lot of other, bigger issues this distracts from.
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Yeah....that's part of the whole "civilian control of the military" thing.
That said, I do find it rather telling, though like you I don't see much reason to do anything other than to maybe say "what an *expletive deleted*hole" and move on. There's a lot of other, bigger issues this distracts from.
GOP make big deals out of things they can't be expected to fix. If there's an issue that they could actually take ACTION on , they ignore it because they're terrible, too.
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I don't know that anyone (at least here) is talking about this as a political issue. More of a character issue. The "what an a-hole" as mentioned earlier. It seems like the liberal news outlets and blogs are spending at least as much, if not more time on it with the "Bush did it too!" stuff. I agree that all of it should not be taking away from policy issues the way it has been. Though I'm sure it will die out in a day or two when the next distraction pops up.
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So, his weak rendition of something he's not actually required to do is the most pressing thing we can criticize him for? Got it.
The painfully stupid, obvious straw man comeback that never dies.
The president is not required to return a salute. At all.
Do some more googling
Google yourself. I never said he should be prosecuted for the crime of failure to salute. I said that returning a salute is a matter of custom, not a matter of something the president "gets to do." If he doesn't want to, then he should just not do it. But he should not do the stupid, cup-in-hand-while-other-hand-is-empty salute.
Also, I'm pretty sure we're allowed to laugh at this:
http://twitchy.com/2014/09/24/that-awkward-moment-when-obama-went-to-the-un-and-these-hilarious-photos-happened/
Yes, Fitz, that means that I think the Prez sitting in a big chair and looking funny is the worst thing happening ever. :P
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Google yourself. I never said he should be prosecuted for the crime of failure to salute. I said that returning a salute is a matter of custom, not a matter of something the president "gets to do." If he doesn't want to, then he should just not do it. But he should not do the stupid, cup-in-hand-while-other-hand-is-empty salute.
How is a civilian to know that an object in the hand while saluting is verboten?
Funny thing about things that people aren't required to do.... they generally don't know anything about the ins and outs of doing it.
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How is a civilian to know that an object in the hand while saluting is verboten?
Funny thing about things that people aren't required to do.... they generally don't know anything about the ins and outs of doing it.
Are you asking about the President not knowing about this then I would want a few minutes with his military advisors. They failed him and us if they failed to drill into him that if he is going to choose to salute the correct way to do so.
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Mebbe he should'a bowed.
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Are you asking about the President not knowing about this then I would want a few minutes with his military advisors. They failed him and us if they failed to drill into him that if he is going to choose to salute the correct way to do so.
This president has already proven he isn't interested in advice from his military advisors.
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Are you asking about the President not knowing about this then I would want a few minutes with his military advisors. They failed him and us if they failed to drill into him that if he is going to choose to salute the correct way to do so.
This; as CinC, he can also ask any other member of the military to help him get it right. Just like every little cultural gaffe that "he just couldn't have known;" he has the State Department to deal with that, and as I recall, they have a rather large group of people dedicated to educating the President, his family and their staffers on how to behave with whoever they're likely to encounter next. (In fact, I'd bet with all the other countries that use similar or identical salutes, they could teach him on that as well as the military advisers.) Just like everything else he screws up more than once; the first time, his advisers are a bit lax in keeping him up on everything and explaining to him why it's important before it becomes an issue. The second time, either they're incompetent or he just doesn't give a damn.
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I would assume that the same people who should have taught him how to salute also taught him to not address the Queen of England as "Queenie".
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I remember reading a story about when Clinton was elected, that they spent a little/some/a great many hours on getting him to understand military ranks, basic protocol to include saluting and getting it right as there were always cameras whenever AF1 and Marine1 landed and took off.
While he may not have had the crispest parade ground salute, I had to give him an 80-85% most of the time for proper execution.
And while it is low, low, low on Obama Outrage meter, it's simply another example of how he looks down on "the little people" and his disrespect/disregard for the military.
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President Obama's protocol people have been incompetent from the beginning.
That said, I do agree that if he is going to salute, he ought to do it right.
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GOP make big deals out of things they can't be expected to fix. If there's an issue that they could actually take ACTION on , they ignore it because they're terrible, too.
I don't remember Bush himself trying to pump himself up because he tried to salute. Others talked about it. It doesn't mean he is smart or good, just shows a different attitude about the people around them who are not politically important. I disagree with a lot of what he did, but there are a few things I respect about the guy. I'd say the same about Bush I and Reagan.
Bush I at least had the sense to put his Presidential library at Texas A&M.
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How is a civilian to know that an object in the hand while saluting is verboten?
Funny thing about things that people aren't required to do.... they generally don't know anything about the ins and outs of doing it.
As a civilian myself, common sense strikes me as somewhat high on the list of reasons saluting with a cup of coffee might be frowned upon.
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I recalled a quote from President Reagan about saluting, so I looked it up:
"And so, I know all the rules about not saluting in civilian clothes and so forth, and when you should or shouldn't. But then when I got this job -- (laughter) -- and I would be approaching Air Force One or Marine One and those Marines would come to a salute and I -- knowing that I am in civilian clothes -- I would nod and say ‘Hello’ and think they could drop their hand, and they wouldn't. They just stood there. So, one night over at the commandant's quarters, Marine Commandant's quarters in Washington, and I was getting a couple of highballs, and I didn't -- (laughter) -- know what to do with them. So, I said to the commandant -- I said, ‘Look, I know all the rules about saluting in civilian clothes and all, but if I am the Commander in Chief, there ought to be a regulation that would permit me to return a salute.’ And I heard some words of wisdom. He said, ‘I think if you did, no one would say anything.’
"So, if you see me on television and I'm saluting, you know that I've got authority for it now -- (laughter) -- and I do it happily."
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How is a civilian to know that an object in the hand while saluting is verboten?
Funny thing about things that people aren't required to do.... they generally don't know anything about the ins and outs of doing it.
Ignorant civilians being expected to know military protocol is the most terrifying crisis we've faced as a nation. Got it.
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Ignorant civilians being expected to know military protocol is the most terrifying crisis we've faced as a nation. Got it.
Ignorant, uncaring civilians with a medium sized army of highly (taxpayer) paid staffers whose main purpose is educating the ignorant, you mean.
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Ignorant civilians being expected to know military protocol is the most terrifying crisis we've faced as a nation. Got it.
You have an uncanny knack for calling out the disaster-mongers.
Now if we can only find out why some people are deathly allergic to peanuts, because I sure don't recall anyone being allergic to peanuts in the 1960s when I was a kid ...... [tinfoil].
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There are a bunch of liberal asshats posting pics of Bush saluting while holding a dog, which he shouldn't have done. It would appear he got caught off guard with the salute and he could've acknowledge with a nod of the head and gone about his way with no harm done.
Yes, in fact he should have returned the salute. Standard protocol if carrying a one-handed burden is to shift the burden to the left hand and salute with the right. That's what Bush did -- and it shows that he went out of his way to return the salute rather than blow it off with a nod.
Obama, on the other hand, was only carrying a coffee cup, and he couldn't be bothered to move it to his other hand and render a (more or less) proper salute. IMHO there is no comparison between the two incidents.
http://www.breitbart.com/InstaBlog/2014/09/24/Obama-s-latte-salute-vs-Bush-s-dog-salute
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Yes, in fact he should have returned the salute. Standard protocol if carrying a one-handed burden is to shift the burden to the left hand and salute with the right. That's what Bush did -- and it shows that he went out of his way to return the salute rather than blow it off with a nod.
Obama, on the other hand, was only carrying a coffee cup, and he couldn't be bothered to move it to his other hand and render a (more or less) proper salute. IMHO there is no comparison between the two incidents.
http://www.breitbart.com/InstaBlog/2014/09/24/Obama-s-latte-salute-vs-Bush-s-dog-salute
Thing is I see the dog as a two-handed burden.
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Yes, in fact he should have returned the salute. Standard protocol if carrying a one-handed burden is to shift the burden to the left hand and salute with the right. That's what Bush did -- and it shows that he went out of his way to return the salute rather than blow it off with a nod.
Obama, on the other hand, was only carrying a coffee cup, and he couldn't be bothered to move it to his other hand and render a (more or less) proper salute. IMHO there is no comparison between the two incidents.
http://www.breitbart.com/InstaBlog/2014/09/24/Obama-s-latte-salute-vs-Bush-s-dog-salute
I agree with you on the second point... it's not comparable. In the rules of salute etiquette, Obama's gaffe was more egregious.
I just don't think it's all that worth getting worked up for.
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I just don't think it's all that worth getting worked up for.
People are worked up about it?
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People are worked up about it?
The whining on facebook is annoying...
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People are worked up about it?
LOL....
Yes. They are. Not really anyone here. But in general, people are going pants-on-head over it.
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Well anyways, it's not like it's the first time he's had "hand issues" in public.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.politico.com%2Fglobal%2Fblogs%2F110920_obama_leaders_click_465.jpg&hash=522def6984334278bb4a1798050ba67af4d750ad)
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He could have at least spilled the coffee all over himself. :laugh:
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LOL....
Yes. They are. Not really anyone here. But in general, people are going pants-on-head over it.
Pants on head. Now that sounds hilarious, so I googloogled it. British, I presume. Thanks for sharing.