Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Ben on October 25, 2014, 04:35:21 PM
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I know that some of you have had or still have C&R FFLs. Mine just came up for renewal, and I am trying to decide if I even want to bother. I'm not seeing any of the kind of deals that were prevalent 20 years ago, when I was buying five rifles at a time from various dealers, and I'm not even seeing a lot of the discounts we used to get for having a C&R license. Midway, for example, has completely eliminated that discount.
Plus, CA is making it more difficult to have a C&R, with state paperwork now required every time you renew the Federal license. So I'm up in the air on if it's worth renewing, or maybe just letting it lapse, and if C&R deals ever pick up again, and/or when I move out of state, simply reapplying.
Just curious what the other APS C&R holders think.
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I think your reasoning is sound. I've tossed the idea around but keep coming back to not bothering, and every year I consider it I talk myself out of it easier as I see less benefits to having it.
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I've had one for a few years. I don't bother with cheap surplus C&R guns like MNs and whatnot. I'm more interested in old S&Ws, Colts, the "dealer" discounts you can get, etc. The discounts are becoming less lucrative (Midway dumped theirs, only Brownells offers a decent discount now), but the S&Ws I'd want are becoming more prevalent as the qualifying guns are now in the early 60s.
That said, I'm considering not renewing mine as well. I buy maybe one C&R gun every 1.5 years, so it's not a huge benefit to my collection (though that may change as the 50yr point creeps up into the late 60s and early 70s). I don't buy enough stuff from Brownells to cover my license fee as in years past either.
Chris
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I let mine lapse about 6 years ago and only recall wishing I'd still had it maybe twice.
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I've only ever used mine twice.
That said, I renewed it when it came due, if only to show support for the program.
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Back when there were a lot of varied C&R guns coming into the surplus market, I'd say that was the time it was worth it.
Nowadays lots less of that. The last of those days were back when I was just getting into shooting heavily...but not old enough for a C&R at the time. By the time I had turned 21, the good stuff was drying up...
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Back when there were a lot of varied C&R guns coming into the surplus market, I'd say that was the time it was worth it.
Nowadays lots less of that. The last of those days were back when I was just getting into shooting heavily...but not old enough for a C&R at the time. By the time I had turned 21, the good stuff was drying up...
"New" C&R guns come onto the market daily.
I'm not sure why garbage guns like Mosin Nagants are equated with C&R and why the lack of a market flooded with tomato stakes means the market has dried up. A gun need only be older than 50 years to qualify. That puts us solidly into the 60s. Many of the guns we enjoy today are nearly identical to their counterparts from the 50s and 60s. You have S&W and Colt revolvers, 1911s, Winchester rifles (pre-64 model 70s), etc. Even early AR-15s are on the cusp of C&R status.
The last C&R I bought was an early 60s S&W K32. It is mechanically and stylistically identical to an K-frame S&W from today (minus ILS and MIM).
Even though I seldom use mine and the discounts are drying up, it only costs $30 for 3 years. Renewing is easier than getting the license in the first place. In the 6 years (or has it been 9?) I've had mine, I've not been contacted once by ATF.
Chris
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The Mosins are what showed up at the end of the milsurp "golden years". Prior to that, you could find very nice Mausers, Ariskas, K31s, Springfield '03s, etc. at really cheap prices. A lot of people (myself included) bought them as investments. Most of mine sit in the safe and I only shoot a few of them. As can be seen in the K31 thread here, they can be a pretty nice investment vehicle. Nevermind the markings or any "collector value" characteristics of any of my German Mausers - I could sell the forged actions on most of them today for double what I paid for the rifles.
I also enjoyed buying some of the Mausers that weren't really for investment, like the Turks, and breaking them down and rebuilding them and refinishing the wood on them. It was a fun hobby and learning experience for me, and if I screwed up a $50 rifle while learning, no big deal.
I didn't get my C&R just for milsurps. I fully wanted to take advantage of it for 50+ year American guns, like older lever actions, Savage 311s, etc. to buy and shoot. What I found though, was that I never ran across any "C&R FFL pricing" on them. I could just as easily have bought them at the same price sans C&R FFL. Certainly part of that may have been my living in CA, as a lot of the online brokers selling those types of guns would only ship them to a Class 1 FFL, which would have incurred additional charges to me. Pretty much all the milsurp brokers shipped to your front door.
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Like Ben said, I bought a pile of mauser 98s, 96s, swiss rifles, etc on an 03.
Never really interested in m-ns, which are on the very low end of quality and value.
Older winchester model 70 rifles don't interest me as they tend to be over valued for what they are, I could pick up a brand new better rifle made by FN today if I wanted one for the same price or less. Older lever rifles? Forgeddabout it! The cowboy action fetisists have pushed those prices through the stratosphere.
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If I lived in CA, I would probably have a different view as well. Living in VA, I'm able to have C&R items shipped to me. They're not always cheaper than the LGS, but avoiding the background check is nice as that always takes me 45-60min (similar name as a felon in TX).
I haven't used mine for long guns, but it has been useful for picking up old revolvers, especially ones that aren't in high demand (old i-frame hand ejectors, oddball k-frames, etc). If I were a hardcore collector, it would be useful for getting some of the older N-frames that I never see at the LGS, but those are priced outside my comfort zone already. I never had any illusions about C&R FFL Pricing. I was looking for the convenience of cash and carry regardless of where I was or having them shipped directly to my home rather than the LGS. I haven't yet run into a dealer who wouldn't take my C&R.
It's also nice to keep a couple copies in each vehicle in case I find something nice while traveling. Old revolver at a gun shop three states away from home? No problem with my C&R, but a big hassle without.
It was a no-brainer when the dealer discounts at Midway or Brownells paid for the license, but that is less likely these days.
Chris
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I'm not sure why garbage guns like Mosin Nagants are equated with C&R and why the lack of a market flooded with tomato stakes means the market has dried up
HOW DARE YOU. GLORIOUS MOSIN IS GREATEST RIFLE EVER BUILT. IS RIFLE THAT EXPELLED FASCIST DOGS FROM BELOVED STALINGRAD. MOSIN ONLY GARBAGE IF SISSYMAN CANNOT HANDLE ITS POWER
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HOW DARE YOU. GLORIOUS MOSIN IS GREATEST RIFLE EVER BUILT. IS RIFLE THAT EXPELLED FASCIST DOGS FROM BELOVED STALINGRAD. MOSIN ONLY GARBAGE IF SISSYMAN CANNOT HANDLE ITS POWER
I was about to say he's goring the sacred cow of gun forums :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
At another forum we had a guy show up and proclaim his MN nagant was the greatest rifle ever made because he claimed could hit an oxygen bottle with it at 1000 yards. He was summarily run off for being a dumbass...
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I was about to say he's goring the sacred cow of gun forums :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
At another forum we had a guy show up and proclaim his MN nagant was the greatest rifle ever made because he claimed could hit an oxygen bottle with it at 1000 yards. He was summarily run off for being a dumbass...
Some of the Finnish and American made rifles are quite nice. The ukranian rifles of the last 10 years or so, not so much.
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Gave up on my C&R. Bunch of reasons.
1. My favorite milsurps, like my FR-8, and my Ishapore 7.62 NATO MkIII Enfield weren't even C&R. Weren't old enough.
2. As noted in the thread, even with sales-tax etc. I've found better deals direct-buy of C&R stuff like my $89 K-31, and $90 CZ-52, and my $79 Nagant revolver.
3. I've had a very difficult time finding ANYONE who'd honor my 03 FFL, other than the big C&R houses, AIM, Classic, SOG, Numrich etc. I've had nothing but flack from 01's, never had any of them forgo the 4473 and NICS call.
4. I've further had difficulty getting anyone to honor an 01 FFL for anything other than the guns they "think of as being C&R". Guns that are over 50 years old, and 100% legal for C&R transfer, but seem to be "too modern", everyone has refused me.
Late 80's and 90's, the $30 was totally worth it. Now the money I'd save is hardly worth the effort of keeping the bound book. Looks to me like the C&R market is going to be Mosin Nagants and whatever little increasingly dwindling stashes get uncovered around the world where you'd have to prowl constantly for them, and be ready to buy before it sells out in a day.
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At another forum we had a guy show up and proclaim his MN nagant was the greatest rifle ever made because he claimed could hit an oxygen bottle with it at 1000 yards. He was summarily run off for being a dumbass...
If he could throw it hard enough to go 1000 yards, I have no doubt the bayonet would punch through.
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Gave up mine this year.
Sawdust
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I haven't used mine in about 2 years. I'll probably renew it tho' when it comes up again... unless the fee goes way up.
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Looks to me like the C&R market is going to be Mosin Nagants and whatever little increasingly dwindling stashes get uncovered around the world where you'd have to prowl constantly for them, and be ready to buy before it sells out in a day.
We're entering the era where most of the military issue rifles that are becoming eligible are full auto and can't be brought in except in pieces.
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I wish i had bought a PU sniper before the price went thru the roof
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I wish i had bought a PU sniper before the price went thru the roof
There are still plenty of them out there.
http://www.classicfirearms.com/m91-30-w-scope-and-mount
http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=F3MOSIN9130pu
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Okay, I'll veer my own thread again. What's the difference between the 91/30 and 91/30 sniper, other than the scope?
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Okay, I'll veer my own thread again. What's the difference between the 91/30 and 91/30 sniper, other than the scope?
The scope mount had to be hand fitted (I've heard of faked snipers that simply wouldn't zero because the scope alignment was terrible), I believe the rifles were chosen for accuracy, some might have shims under the barrel and around the trigger to improve accuracy (I can't remember if the trigger shims were more of a Finnish enhancement though). The snipers have a bent bolt.
I've been on the fence for years about getting one. I already have a Swedish M41b (sniper based on the M96 rifle), while they are neat pieces of history and will only go up in value in the future, you could easily buy a better modern rifle off the shelf for the same amount of money.
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We're entering the era where most of the military issue rifles that are becoming eligible are full auto and can't be brought in except in pieces.
And most of those that have been retired have already been surplussed out as parts kits (if the country's government in question did not destroy them in spite)
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What benefits do you get with a C&R? I know it has to be at least 50 years old to qualify, and even then isn't there still other criteria? I believe you can have them shipped directly to you instead of having to go pick it up from a dealer. Are there other benefits?
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What benefits do you get with a C&R? I know it has to be at least 50 years old to qualify, and even then isn't there still other criteria? I believe you can have them shipped directly to you instead of having to go pick it up from a dealer. Are there other benefits?
You can receive C&R machine guns, SBR's, SBS's, AOW's, directly without a Class III FFL, but you still have to do the NFA forms and pay the $200 transfer tax. Unsure if there's any C&R suppressors...
However, C&R MG's command an even higher premium because of this, over their already pre-'86 price inflation, because a few states only allow C&R MG ownership.
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You can receive C&R machine guns, SBR's, SBS's, AOW's, directly without a Class III FFL, but you still have to do the NFA forms and pay the $200 transfer tax. Unsure if there's any C&R suppressors...
However, C&R MG's command an even higher premium because of this, over their already pre-'86 price inflation, because a few states only allow C&R MG ownership.
I remember a shipment of a few types of 'antique' rifles that were on the market awhile back- manufactured before 1898, iirc, that commanded a premium price because a C&R is not even needed for transfer or shipment.
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Besides being able to have guns older than 50yrs old sent directly to you (or purchased in any shop regardless of your residency state), you can also get discounts at some retailers. Midway used to, but now it's only Brownells and a couple others. Discounts range from "are you kidding?" to pretty significant. When I first got my C&R, it only took 1-2 orders from Midway or Brownells to recoup my $30 fee.
There are also certain younger guns that qualify for C&R. They tend to be special commemorative guns, replicas of primitive firearms, etc. Those are specifically listed by the ATF, so don't assume they're C&R unless on that list.
Chris