Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: AJ Dual on December 31, 2014, 09:13:15 PM
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Synopsis: I fell out of the loop on building hot-rod DIY PC's about 10 years ago. Aside from the basics, I now know squat about the current nomenclature of parts, motherboards, cases, video cards etc. Mrs. Dual needs a new Photoshop rig, and the power vs. price ratio with a desktop and the new 4k monitors is just too high for her to go with a luggable uber-large 17-18" class "desktop replacement laptop" anymore.
The few times she really needs to use a laptop, she can get by on what we have. I've been plugging in checkbox filter choices on places like Amazon and Newegg, but I'm not getting far. I have no problem assembling it etc. but knowing what to get in the details means 10 years of learning curve. :P
Parameters:
Budget: I'd like to keep it around $1000, not including mouse, monitor, KB...)
- Intel Core i7 4th gen, or equivalent AMD.
- Whatever
- 16gb of RAM, or more if possible, maybe whatever RAM is faster better. (Corsair is a term I've heard?)
- Boot/OS/Application SSD, or SSD's RAID'ed for speed.
- Secondary 7200rpm 2TB HDD(s) possibly mirrored for photo storage.
- Quiet(ish) in terms of PSU/fans as it'll be in our bedroom.
- Whatever whiz-bang nVidia based card is the hotness within the budget above, or good for Photoshop. (Better luck with PS and nVidia driver specs)
Perfectly open to revisions and changes. Being honest, "I don't know what I don't know" etc. Maybe it's not do-able within my budget.
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Time the megaflocett for maximum flops per quadrangle, and you should be fine. And use plenty of thermal paste.
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Definitely do the SSD. They've come down a lot in price. I think you can get a 480gb for around $250 now. I would just make the HD external if it's mostly for photo storage - transfers are pretty fast with USB3.
Unless you're running a bunch of virtual machines, you don't need more than 16GB. Be careful when picking fans if quiet is important. I don't know what the current quiet ones are, but I'm sure Tom's Hardware or one of the other sites has info. Look at getting the case insulated if quiet is really important. If you're gonna build a beast, you're gonna have to weigh quiet and cooling, because it'll also be a heater.
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Just buy one of the newer mini it x units they sell for home theaters and car computers. They have some pretty good graphics on board, no fans, run off a laptop power brick. Put it in a clever case like an ammo can.
Ok I'm sure you think they aren't powerful enough because the amount of computer power needed to make pictures doubles every two years for some reason. Then I'm not up to date either, but buy a lot of ram and SSD. I would look into NAS rather than an internal hard drive....I like very quiet systems.
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Does the picture editing she'd doing need the hyper threading capability of an i7? If not, I'd recommend looking at a powerful i5. Just built my new rig on one, and had to have my BIL compile the parts list and explain why I didn't need the i7.
I'm using this setup, and it runs any game I want on max performance settings. The video card is probably overkill for what you're after though.
http://www.amazon.com/Intel-Core-i5-4690K-Processor-BX80646I54690K/dp/B00KPRWB9G/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1416773785&sr=8-2&keywords=i5+4670
http://www.amazon.com/ASUS-MAXIMUS-VII-HERO-Motherboards/dp/B00K2MASE4/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1416774158&sr=8-2&keywords=asus+maximus+vi+hero
http://www.amazon.com/GTX770-DC2OC-2GD5-GeForce-256-bit-PCI-Express-OC-selected/dp/B00D3F7CFK/ref=sr_1_2?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1416773407&sr=1-2&keywords=GTX+770
Downshift a bit on the video card, and it should be pretty close to within budget after you get a case, ram, SSD and PS.
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Everything you want on that list is going to run about $1300-1500. To make that $1K, you're going to have to cut a few corners.
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If hyper threading is needith not, doith as Andiron hath said, and get thee an i5. Seriously though, if you don't need the hyper threading capability of the i7 there is absolutely no reason to step up from the i5, i5 speeds are just as fast they are just a step or two down on how well they handle that many more processes at once. I'm not a photo shop guru, but I don't believe there is much of anything an i7 will give you an i5 wont as most of what you'll be seeing/doing will be gpu driven. IOW, save the cash difference and put it into a better video card. Also if you have no desire whatsoever to ever even consider overclocking, save a little cash and don't bother with one that has the capability(K designation for intel).
On RAM, 16gb never hurt no one. But on the flip side, 8gb may well be enough it just depends on what she is editing and how resource hogging it'll be. My advice would be get a mobo that will accommodate plenty of ram and then put as much in there as the budget will afford with 8gb as the basement. If you have to start with 8 and upgrade to 16(or more) later, nothing else in the build is going to be as cheap and simple to upgrade later as the RAM. So if my budget said 16gb of ram and cheaping out on the cpu/gpu/mobo or going with 8gb and being able to get the better cpu/gpu/mobo I'd go with the 8 and revisit it later. Often over looked speed on the memory is important, not just the overall size.
SSD, there's little reason not to other than price. The price isn't to bad these days and it does indeed make for faster loading. So get one big enough for your OS and it wouldn't hurt either for it to have the room for your frequently used programs. But, on the flip side, it's also going to save you nothing but a bit of time. So again, if it meant having to cheap out on the cpu/gpu/mobo, I'd ditch it and wait the extra couple seconds for windows to load or a program to open so that I could have better performance when using the application.
On the card, I like EVGA cards. With what you are wanting do not cheap out here or it's going to be your surest bottleneck. Look at the 9 series, something like an EVGA 970 superclocked offering should do well for you and (double check the specific card) can be SLI'd with a second card later if needed.
As to the fans, you want quiet? You want good? Noctua fans. Also ditch the supplied CPU fan, keep it on the shelf as a spare, and drop the 30ish bucks for a Coolor MAster CPU cooler (that can keep the fan it comes with).
I'd take a good look at what she's doing and see just what her base requirements are. 1000 might be a little low, might be way low, or it might be perfectly realistic. Just off the top of my head I'd say 1000 might be doable but you'd be much better set by adding a 2-300 on to that. Better to suck up another 2-300 than "waste" 1000 because it wont do what you need it to. All depends on just how intensive the photo editing she is doing is. Also keep in mind the real beauty of this, upgrades. Set yourself up will now with a good mobo, good processor, a 2 way capable gpu, and an overkill PSU? Six months from now after having the chance to put another few hundred bucks together and examine if it has any deficiencies and you can very easily toss in another serving of ram and a second video card to run in SLI.
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Check Dell's outlet store. I stopped building my own boxes when I found I could get an outlet unit with an OS and warranty for about what I'd have in home-built-unit parts alone. Inventory changes by the minute, but you can score a screaming deal if you're willing to exercise a little patience.
Brad
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Check Dell's outlet store. I stopped building my own boxes when I found I could get an outlet unit with an OS and warranty for about what I'd have in home-built-unit parts alone. Inventory changes by the minute, but you can score a screaming deak if you're willing to exercise a little patience.
Brad
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=deak
3
Deak
A woman who likes kinky sex.
Check her out. Yeah, she looks like a real freaky deak!
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Deak. Deal. Whatever it takez.
(Damn non-tactile smart phone keyboard....)
Brad
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Well, given a choice, I think I would go with a deak over a deal on a computer. Computers are lying around everywhere but a deak.......................
bob
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Deak. Deal. Whatever it takez.
(Damn non-tactile smart phone keyboard....)
Brad
Android's autocorrect is, uh, "whimsical".
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As to the fans, you want quiet? You want good? Noctua fans. Also ditch the supplied CPU fan, keep it on the shelf as a spare, and drop the 30ish bucks for a Coolor MAster CPU cooler (that can keep the fan it comes with).
As to the i7 and the hyperthreading. This isn't a "wifey "does Photoshop" with the kids pictures type of thing. Mrs. Dual deals in 16 Megapixel RAW's, dozens, sometimes hundreds if it's a high-school dance etc. or just a well-heeled client who can't make up their mind and wants to pay for all their family photos adjusted and cleaned up. And as a preliminary step she runs macros and actions to all of them with dozens of actions in Photoshop and Lightroom. We've seen a clear difference between i7 and i5 machines.
Cooler Master, I've heard of them. We've bought their units at work when the CPU fan and heatsink failed on some machine failed or was rattling etc. Hopefully the PSU is quiet too. Although shutting it off at night isn't too big a deal, it would just be nice to let it run if she's got a large batch job going and go to bed. For $30 to make it significantly quieter, that would be worth it.
I'm at about $1100-ish, not counting the monitor and keyboard/mouse, which was close to my budget.
Here's what I've pieced together at Newegg, just for starters.. i7, 16gb RAM, 128 SSD for Boot/OS/Programs, 2tb drive for storage. ASUS nVidia GeForce 650gtx with 2Gb VRAM. 4k Asus 28" monitor, cheapo wireless mouse and KB. (The important thing is Mrs. Dual's graphics tablet, not on this budget.) Anyone see anything wrong, or have a "this is better" idea?
Just FYI, The "cell phone booster" antenna is actually a 1/4" reverse-SMA jack external antenna for the WiFi card for network access. I've used PCI internal Wi-Fi cards before and have found the signal gets blocked when the antenna is just down behind the tower case chassis. The ext. antenna can be placed high in an unobstructed place.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi156.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ft33%2FAJ_Dual%2Fneweggcart_zps10ca7644.png&hash=e4e39483bae058e1361d1d2efae3cf9d64a7c404) (http://s156.photobucket.com/user/AJ_Dual/media/neweggcart_zps10ca7644.png.html)
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Tech Support Forum is a great source for authentic smart people in the world of computers, etc. Every year they put our a recommended builds list. They are big on building quality as opposed to capability.
http://www.techsupportforum.com/forums/f255/tsf-hardware-teams-recommended-builds-2015-a-668661.html
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I would say that the power supply is questionable, as is the $150 for an extra 8gb stick of ram. That's about the going rate for a 16gb kit. The other change I'd make is to upgrade to a 670 or 770 graphics card. Do you by any chance have a Microcenter near you?
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Tech Support Forum is a great source for authentic smart people in the world of computers, etc. Every year they put our a recommended builds list. They are big on building quality as opposed to capability.
http://www.techsupportforum.com/forums/f255/tsf-hardware-teams-recommended-builds-2015-a-668661.html
NICE! This is exactly the kind of info I was looking for. Thank you. =)
I would say that the power supply is questionable, as is the $150 for an extra 8gb stick of ram. That's about the going rate for a 16gb kit. The other change I'd make is to upgrade to a 670 or 770 graphics card. Do you by any chance have a Microcenter near you?
Yeah, I was figuring that out, from the lists on waitone's techsupportforum lists. I thought the ram was deeply discounted in the Newegg package, and wanted to be sure to match it with what was already in that DIY kit.
And now knowing what to get a-la carte in terms of mobo and CPU from the techsupport forums lists, I can afford the better nVidia card.
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TSF has pretty good advice on matching ram if you have to do it. Lots of geek tips therein.
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TSF has pretty good advice on matching ram if you have to do it. Lots of geek tips therein.
Barring some minor substitutions if I run across them, or some new advice, I'm going to build the TSF $1300 build, but with mirrored RAID0 2TB Western Digitals for storage, and a 128Gb SSD for Boot/OS and Photoshop.
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Question on why you're doing RAID mirrors? I used to build like that all the time (though usually RAID1 vs 0 because I was more concerned with redundancy than speed), but with modern HDs and Win7 having really great backup software (vs crappy tape), I stopped doing RAID for simplicity's sake. With the SSD you're getting your need for speed, and if the HDs are more for storage and you don't need instant failure backup or redundancy, you could simplify by foregoing the RAID.
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Question on why you're doing RAID mirrors? I used to build like that all the time (though usually RAID1 vs 0 because I was more concerned with redundancy than speed), but with modern HDs and Win7 having really great backup software (vs crappy tape), I stopped doing RAID for simplicity's sake. With the SSD you're getting your need for speed, and if the HDs are more for storage and you don't need instant failure backup or redundancy, you could simplify by foregoing the RAID.
Erghhh. I meant RAID 1. And it would mainly be a stopgap measure. These are being used for client photos, so losing them isn't an option. Plus our own family photos have all been scanned and saved as well. And there's occasionally time-crunches where downtime for a backup or a restore isn't convenient.
Main problem is that I'd build a home NAS with one of the smaller Synology boxes or something else that's RAID 6. And will someday. I've been through enough drive failures professionally, and at home to be paranoid, I've even been through some RAID 5 failures where the magic bullet of two drives dying at once has happened. And that kind of stuff runs like ass over WiFI, and I'm too lazy to run wires until next year when we move to the downstairs room, when our younger 9 y.o. twins each get their own room and one of them moves over to ours. =D
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Gotchya. I think RAID1 is still the fastest recovery/redundancy option out there. At least the fastest affordable option. :)
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A couple suggestions. Skip the Evo cpu cooler, they're heavy and put a lot of stress on the motherboard. Look at one of these instead.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835181036
Quieter, better cooling, and you won't have a pound of aluminum hanging off of the board. Secondly, Go with at least a 240/256gb boot drive. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820148694&leaderboard=1
Aside from having the extra space, you'll increase the lifespan of the drive. Wear leveling can push it out to 15 years with moderate use. Which Western Digitals are you thinking about? I'd stick with the Blacks or the Reds, I've seen a lot of Blues going belly up at around the one year mark lately. I'd also look at this http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157507
Asrock has been making some great boards the last few years. I've used them in my last 3 builds for myself. I'd also bump up the power supply another notch. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817151107
Its good to have a little over head. Let's you add more components down the road without having to upgrade the power supply. Any Corsair case is well made and nice to work with. They're all I use for custom builds now. My current build is in a C70, but I have a 600T on deck for my next build.
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Glad to hear it.
I actually did go up a SeaSonic model, and once Mrs. Dual got invested in the parts picking, the specs expanded.. a bit. =D
Mobo is now an ASUS Sabertooth z97
250gb Samsung SSD for OS/Apps/Boot, and we're now at 32gb of 1866MHz DDR3 RAM.
Video card is a EVGA GeForce GTX 970 4GB of GDDR5 RAM.
The HDD's are now a pair of HGST Deskstar 3TB drives. (WD bought out Hitachi or something?) After a bit of research, they've got the lowest aggregate failure rate, even after two years, in some informal datacenter/NAS/SAN tests, and the failure rates are actually trending downward as the years go by. Depending on the model, they're a tad more expensive, but only if you're buying thousands of them. The extra $5 or so each isn't a problem here. http://www.amazon.com/HGST-Deskstar-3-5-Inch-Internal-0S03660/dp/B00HHAJU7K/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1420268853&sr=8-1&keywords=hgst+3tb
I think I'll stick with the Cooler Master EVO though, I agree that the heatsink and fan hanging off seems like a strain, but in my research, while I've seen people voicing the same concerns, I've not come across anyone having a problem. The case Mrs. Dual decided she liked was this:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007RESFHM/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
And as far as I can tell, this doesn't have 140mm fan mounts, maybe it does... But I don't feel like upsetting the whole apple cart to start over.
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I've never heard of anyone having an issue with the EVO putting strain on the mobo. It has a bracket that comes with it, not like it just screws into the mobo. I've run them without a problem, and it's one of the most popular aftermarket air cooled CPU coolers out there. The only thing to keep in mind is the EVO being rather tall wont work in some of the more slender cases. If worried about space they make one that lays flat, but I've heard some folks mention it interfering with some of their ram slots.
On the card, I assume its the superclocked model? I'm running one of it's little brothers, you wont be disappointed. Samsung is also my preference on the SSDs.
Corsair makes very good cases that are pretty good to work in. That case only has 120mm mounts, which is fine. Without overclocking or getting crazy there will be more than enough air moving through the case. Their stock fans aren't bad noise wise, Noctuas would just be a tad quieter and have a tad better performance. If you don't want to drop the cash for Noctua I'd stick with the stock fans that come with the case. Also ready for water cooling if you want to go that route instead of the EVO. I'd go with the Corsair H100i if you go this route, IMO the single fan/small radiator ones aren't worth it unless space is the big concern. And in that case, it wont be.
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I've found that over the last few years I have actually become brand loyal as far as PC parts go. Seasonic made power supplies under whichever rebrand has the right pricing that week. Crucial for SSD's, Hitachi for storage, EVGA for video cards. Corsair is my go to for cases, ram, and cooling products. That C70 your wife picked is what my rig's running in now. Great to work with, and designed with water cooling in mind. There are mounts on the top panel for a 120mm or a 240mm radiator, plus they make accessories that let you customize the case any way you want. The 120mm Corsair rads will give at a minimum slightly better cooling then the Evo, on up to a very noticeable difference once you get up to the H80 level. You'd see a small difference at stock speeds, once you start overclocking that's where the big difference comes in. A friend of mine was running an Evo on a 3770k with a 1ghz overclock. swapping from that to a refurb H60 got him a 20 degree C drop under identical conditions. As for the 140 fans, I believe that there are a good number of them that use 120 mounting points.
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I build my own PC recently, mostly with Black Friday Specials. SSD was a bog standard Intel 530 SSD, and my extra storage is my NAS. Haven't bought a graphics card yet. So far, no need. I'm not really gaming and the i5's onboard graphics are good enough for any media I've thrown at it thus far. Total price was $400 ish, but I got the i5 chip from Intel as a gift. I've since tossed another $100 at creature comfort stuff like cables, wireless keyboard, burners, antenna, etc. Main savers were I didn't need a monitor and didn't need a graphics card. For $500-$700, I'm damn impressed and it smokes my two year old i7 with 32 GB work machine.
Corsair 200R case - Good for the money, bit larger than I'd prefer but alright. Fans are very quiet for stock. Very low key, which is good for a media machine.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811139018
Corsair RAM - I have 4x 4GB modules I'm likely going to replace with 2x 8GB modules if you're interested.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820233184
Corsair H60 - Optional, but I like so far. Near silent with my i5 and I've hit it with editing Blu Ray stuff. No weight issue I noticed.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835181030&cm_re=corsair_h60-_-35-181-030-_-Product
Corsair CX600M power supply - Good for me, and I suspect most people. Go to 700 if you think you'll eventually get multiple graphics card.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139048&cm_re=corsair_power_supply-_-17-139-048-_-Product
Gigabyte Z97 board
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128723&cm_re=Gigabyte_z97-_-13-128-723-_-Product
LG BluRay burner
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827136268
TP-LINK TL-WN881ND Wireless N300 PCI Express Adapter
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0079XWMEI/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Antenna
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0034CQSKW/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I went heavy on "bestest for cheapest" however. Concur with i7 if you're doing photo and video editing. Do concur that Hitachi make excellent drives. Though I'm very partial to WD Red drives for my NAS devices. ASUS Sabertooth z97 is an excellent board, I use them at work where cost isn't as much a concern. NewEgg has email specials that are friggin awesome, if somewhat annoying. I basically bounced between Amazon and NewEgg to see what was on sale. I know I sound like a lunatic, but I really do like my Synology NAS.
Refurbished units:
http://store.synologyamerica.com/Category.aspx?CategoryId=10
http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&page=1&rh=n%3A13436301%2Cp_4%3ASynology%2Cp_n_condition-type%3A2224372011
I have a DS212j at home that I got for slightly over a hundred. At work I mostly buy DS181x+ and WD Red 6TB drives which get very economical at $250 a pop.