Post by: CAnnoneer on October 27, 2006, 08:33:46 AM
John Cutter (Gangs of New York): "Have I had you yet? No? Then don't call me by my Christian name!"
Post by: charby on October 27, 2006, 09:49:38 AM
-C
Post by: The Rabbi on October 27, 2006, 10:18:33 AM
"Can I have your name?"
"Bill The Rabbi"
"Hello, Bill. How can I help you today?"
I want to say "that's Mister the rabbi to you, sonny."
My grandmother moved to LA when she was about 85. The movers asked her "now Gertrude, where would you like us to put this couch?"
Post by: Old Fud on October 27, 2006, 10:29:14 AM
She was a school-teacher. Their PARENTS never dared call her by her first name when they were going through her classes.
This is simply not proper respect.
What's worse is that they've got it wrong.
Her formal name is Mildred. My father called her "Mona" --- as did all their friends. "Millie" is that really fat lady from next door.
Fortunately, Mom is stone deaf.
As long as they smile when they say that, and continue to treat her as if they truly like her, she's a happy woman.
Hmmmm. Which of us has his head screwed on right -- she or I?
Fud
Post by: Guest on October 27, 2006, 11:38:34 AM
Post by: Perd Hapley on October 27, 2006, 11:43:45 AM
Culture changes. I doubt most people do it out of disrespect, it's just how they are used to doing things.
It may reflect a lack of respect in the overall culture, I suppose. I'm an old-fashioned guy, but I'm only thirty. I used to address older people as Mr. and Mrs., but I got too many wierd looks, so I quit doing that. They usually said, "Call me Bill," or what-have-you. I still do it at work, though. My "clients" are usually older folk.
Probably happened when business causal attire became everyday for jobs that used to require suits.
What is the point of the business suit? Especially in the summertime. Isn't the suit derived from European clothing and hence suited (pun intended) to European climates? I'm an American, and I sweat enough wearing a t-shirt, thank you very much. I know I'm a little wierd, but I just don't like wearing slacks. Jeans and BDU trousers are the only thing I'm satisfied with. Slacks fit too loosely, are too thin and the front pockets are useless. As soon as I sit down, everything falls out. Don't your four-inch fixed-blade knives, ink pens, change and cellphone all fall out as soon as you sit down? Mine do. Then the back pockets are so long, I can barely fish my wallet out. Permanently jeaned, here,
fistful
Post by: zahc on October 27, 2006, 11:44:11 AM
Quote
Probably happened when business causal attire became everyday for jobs that used to require suits.
Which was a great day.
Institutionalized politeness is pointless. All it does is raise the threshold of what is considered rude.
Post by: crt360 on October 27, 2006, 12:24:12 PM
I deal with a lot of older people in my work and I always call them Mr. or Mrs., or Dr. or "whatever their title is" so-and-so. If they want me to call them Bubba or Thelma, I will.
The business casual thing is great. Ten years ago, I wore a suit or slacks, coat & tie to work every day. Now on the occasional days I have no scheduled appointments and don't have to go anywhere important, I can get by with some khakis and a dress shirt. Aside from making you look good and covering a shoulder holster, a suit is worthless, especially here in Texas where shorts and a t-shirt are often more than you need to be comfortable.
Post by: Perd Hapley on October 27, 2006, 01:14:09 PM
Wait, Howard Dean has one, doesn't he? Never mind.
Post by: CAnnoneer on October 27, 2006, 02:11:14 PM
Quote from: fistful
Mr. CAnnoneer, sir, why are you trying to get us to believe you have a doctorate? We all know you must demonstrate some modicum of intelligence to get one of those.
Quote
Wait, Howard Dean has one, doesn't he? Never mind.
In what, I am curious. Hallaballistics? Demagogy? "Soft" "science"?
Post by: Lee on October 27, 2006, 02:38:10 PM
I can't spit at work without hitting a PhD (there are dozens of them) ...but I don't know any of them who prefer to be called Doctor. When I first started with the company, I used to call all of the PhDs, Doctor....and I think they thought it was pretty odd and funny. It never even crosses my mind now. The exceptions have been those who have just recently earned their degree. After a few weeks, they realize that they know a lot about a few things and very little about a lot of things and they tend to become a little more humble.
Post by: Perd Hapley on October 27, 2006, 02:48:40 PM
CAnnoneer, come on. Let's share. We're all friends here, aren't we? Give us the credentials. What do you for a living?
Post by: Mannlicher on October 27, 2006, 03:06:50 PM
( a tip of the hat to Comedian Bill Saluga)
I dont care what you call me, as long as its not late for dinner.
Post by: Nathaniel Firethorn on October 27, 2006, 03:08:26 PM
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Hallaballistics?
Even The Mighty Google turns up zero on that one. Spelling?- Dr. Doctor Whatsthisstrangegrowth
Post by: Mannlicher on October 27, 2006, 03:11:49 PM
Howard Dean is a medical doctor, I believe, although there's no evidence he was self-medicating on that wild night back in the primaries. Other than the obvious, of course.
CAnnoneer, come on. Let's share. We're all friends here, aren't we? Give us the credentials. What do you for a living?
CAnnoneer, come on. Let's share. We're all friends here, aren't we? Give us the credentials. What do you for a living?
I met Howard Dean during the last election cycle, when Dr. Howard Dean was running for office. It was at the Pharmacuetical company I was working for in Miami. He had an appointment with the CEO to ask for a contribution. I ran into him on his way to the men's room, amd gave him directions. I swear to God, on his way out, he was lost, and one of the secretaries had to direct him the 20 feet or so down the hall to the CEO's office.
The moron was walking up to any and all, sticking out his hand, and saying "hi there, I'm Howard Dean", and then stopping............... There was many a pregnant pause. One secretary had the gall to say "and I am not. For which I am greatful". It was a fun day.
Post by: CAnnoneer on October 27, 2006, 03:19:01 PM
Bachelor's in Physics
Master's in Applied Physics
PhD in Applied Physics
I am a scientist at a major private local university and expect to be appointed a tenure-track professor in the very near future. Which also makes you understand how ridiculous I find many generalizations about "liberal academia" etc., especially since my observations have been the complete opposite in hard science /engineering departments.
I agree with Lee. When most of the people you work with hold advanced degrees or are on their way to such, "Doctor" becomes silly and nobody insists on it. However, this is true only "within the club". Total strangers without a doctorate or workers clearly outside the club, e.g. secretaries, maintenance personnel, undergraduate students, for that matter any non-doctoral student, are expected to maintain formality. Exceptions are only those whom I do consider personal friends and who have allowed me to treat them with reciprocal familiarity.
Post by: CAnnoneer on October 27, 2006, 04:59:48 PM
Quote from: Nathaniel Firethorn
Hallaballistics? Even The Mighty Google turns up zero on that one. Spelling?
Hmmm, that's my own term for a non-discipline/ non-science. You can spell it "hallah-bhallah-listics". Sounds better than "blah-blah-listics" or "habrah-kadabrah-listics".
I have another one for you that is known at least in my circle of scientists/engineers: "muggah-wuggah". Guess what that one means.
Post by: Guest on October 27, 2006, 06:10:31 PM
Demanding false shows of respect are the quickest way to earn your way out of recieving any genuine respect.
Post by: Sindawe on October 27, 2006, 06:51:15 PM
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Aside... covering a shoulder holster...
The ONLY reason I'd wear a suit. Heck, I don't even own one of the infernal things. Well, I own ONE that was given to me by my Uncle 30+ years ago to wear to church once. BDUs and blue jeans for daily wear, fresh black jeans for dress occasions, with a nice bright polo or button down shirt.
First name basis? Eh, bothers me not when people use my common name. Earned titles, like those for a PhD or for a Physician are another matter. Though I do wish we'd use the honorific "Healer" rather than "Doctor" for Physicians and the like.
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Bachelor's in Physics
Master's in Applied Physics
PhD in Applied Physics
Master's in Applied Physics
PhD in Applied Physics
Ahhh...so you're one of those who could never get his experiments to work. : neener :
The Sciences Explained:
If it explodes or smells bad, its chemistry.
If its cold and heavy, its geology.
If its green or wriggles, its biology.
If it does not work, its physics.
Post by: Declaration Day on October 27, 2006, 07:55:16 PM
I, however, am very old-fashioned, so I usually address people accordingly.
The only thing that bothers me is when someone who has a PhD expects me to call them "Doctor" instead of "Mr." or "Mrs." when my business with them is unrelated to their profession.
Post by: CAnnoneer on October 27, 2006, 10:41:39 PM
Quote from: c_yeager
Clearly Cannoneer is far too important and well educated to be forced to interact with the general public. I think that Montana has a vacant shack set up somewhere that you might find appealing. You wont have to worry about the serfs getting your titles wrong out there.
You have to explain to us what happened there.Quote
Demanding false shows of respect are the quickest way to earn your way out of recieving any genuine respect.
Please explain to us how formality in professional life is a false show of respect. Do you think everyone who calls you Mr So-and-so necessarily means to show respect to you personally? Do you salute your superior officers in the army only when you happen to like them? Are you courteous only to clients and superiors you respect/like? Do you work within an organization?
Post by: Art Eatman on October 28, 2006, 03:17:56 AM
I'm 72 years old. I've always been pretty much informal. It bothers me not at all for those who know me to holler, "Hey, Art!', be they teeny-boppers, young adults or whomever.
But a cold call from a telemarketer, beginning with, "Arthur..." jerks my chain. I don't know him; he doesn't know me. The important part of the deal is that they don't know me. Same for sales clerks, cops, or any other newly-met people.
Formality is an introductory phase, with conventions. It's part of the courtesy and politeness deal, to begin any sort of acquaintanceship--business or social--in a condition of neutrality and mutual respect. In the workplace, you go from "Mr." or "Dr." to some lesser degree of formality as time passes. Same as social: You go from "Miss Jones" upon the first meeting to, "Sure, Darlin...'" at some later time.
Art
Post by: Perd Hapley on October 28, 2006, 05:11:21 AM
Quote from: c_yeager
Clearly Cannoneer is far too important and well educated to be forced to interact with the general public. I think that Montana has a vacant shack set up somewhere that you might find appealing. You wont have to worry about the serfs getting your titles wrong out there.
You have to explain to us what happened there. A lot of typing. A little bomb-making. I started to read his manifesto on the internet once - that sucker is long.
fistful, I don't see how this is particularly relevant to the main point of the thread (formality at the workplace), but since you asked, I do hold a doctorate. You asked for "credetials":
Tain't relevant at all. Who cares? It's relevant to you. We talk a lot and occasionally we argue over science. So, naturally, I've been wandering what your experience and qualifications are in that area. Just so we're even, I'll give mine: none. Unless you count those two years of high school physics and a few semesters of now-forgotten calculus. In my younger years I leaned toward math-and-science, but then moved on to the far more interesting world of history, politics, religion, philosophy. Hallabalistics, I believe you'd call it.
Post by: CAnnoneer on October 28, 2006, 07:30:29 AM
Quote from: fistful
history, politics, religion, philosophy. Hallabalistics, I believe you'd call it.
Maybe that came out a bit too disparaging on my part. It is not a binary system, but a spectrum. History, psychology, philosophy for example are far more serious than "women's studies" or "Obscure-Ethnic-Minority-Literature" or some other PC-inflated non-issues.
Post by: CAnnoneer on October 28, 2006, 07:34:27 AM
Quote from: fistful
A lot of typing. A little bomb-making. I started to read his manifesto on the internet once - that sucker is long.
Are we talking about the Unabomber who was a math professor before his logcabin-arsenal phase? I don't know that much about the case, so you'll have to explain to me why expecting formality at the workplace makes c_yeager equate me with a nutcase that killed total strangers by postal bombs.
Post by: CAnnoneer on October 28, 2006, 07:39:20 AM
Quote from: Sindawe
Ahhh...so you're one of those who could never get his experiments to work. : neener :
Believe it or not, that's true for virtually all hard science / engineering. When you go where nobody has gone before, 95% of the work tends to be "unsuccessful", until you find the correct parameters, at which time 95% of the experiments work.
The fundamental secret of science and technology is that we live in a world of resonances. If you are detuned you see nothing. The trick is to tune your system properly to get the desired effect. This is a statement of very broad applicability, although the details in a particular situation may vary widely.
Post by: CAnnoneer on October 28, 2006, 07:50:31 AM
Quote from: fistful
We talk a lot and occasionally we argue over science. I'll give mine: none.
You don't have to have degrees to make a good informed argument. I don't think I've ever used mine as an intimidation tool either here or at THR and don't intend to. Not because I am modest, but because degrees by themselves do not make a good argument and that's what I seek.
Post by: Perd Hapley on October 28, 2006, 08:24:47 AM
However, I give a lot of weight to understanding gained from everyday experience within a specific field. I also hold people to a higher standard when their education means they ought to know better.
RE: the UNABomber, I don't know what he means, either.
Post by: Twycross on October 28, 2006, 10:07:00 AM
Post by: Gewehr98 on October 28, 2006, 12:31:53 PM
I cringed for the last 20 years when I was addressed by my rank or "Sir", just because I had gone to school. I understand the need for formality and respect of rank in a military organization - it's a discipline thing, tied in with customs and courtesies.
However, another thing makes me cringe:
Quote
I agree with Lee. When most of the people you work with hold advanced degrees or are on their way to such, "Doctor" becomes silly and nobody insists on it. However, this is true only "within the club". Total strangers without a doctorate or workers clearly outside the club, e.g. secretaries, maintenance personnel, undergraduate students, for that matter any non-doctoral student, are expected to maintain formality. Exceptions are only those whom I do consider personal friends and who have allowed me to treat them with reciprocal familiarity.
I just finished watching the re-release of Monty Python's Holy Grail. Cannoneer's demand that he be addressed with his formal title by undermensch outside the scholastic environment reminds me of the scene where King Arthur of the Britons was trying to exert authority on the mud collectors in the field. They laughed at him.
I've got a brother-in-law who has a doctorate in Pharmacy. He delights in taunting others who don't have that level of schooling. The guy's never been outside the UW school and hospital system. Myself, I've been everywhere, and seen and done things I wouldn't wish on my worst enemies. Ever dig up a mass grave that was created as a result of ethnic cleansing, just to emplace sensors alerting us when more bodies were dumped?
And the poor guy can't even change the air filter or spark plug in his lawnmower. I taught his 6 year old son to do it, and then the youngster taught his dad how to do a tune-up on the lawnmower. He cornered me later and reminded me that "he was not an imbecile". Of course not. Idiot savant is more like it.
These are the same folks who put their titles in their signature lines when the correspondence has absolutely nothing to do with their given profession. It's like they're trying to impress somebody. I *might* do it if I submit a rebuttal to an article in Air Force Magazine, otherwise I'm an everyday guy who prefers the first name thing. I've seen the "Mr. So-and-so" addressing actually cause problems in the VA hospital, two fellows with the same last name heading for the nurse who called it out.
Post by: CAnnoneer on October 28, 2006, 01:27:47 PM
You have to explain to us why the existence of a few extreme cases makes you question the institution itself. Also, if you bin me and my colleagues with your brother-in-law and King Arthur kicking a peasant, please let me know. Finally, ask yourself to what extent calling one's subordinates "untermensch" has anything to do with what I said or practice.
It is obvious that some of you guys have some egalitarian buttons pressed. As I said/implied previously, consider how many organizations require hierarchic structure for its function ,and benefit from it more than they lose of it.
Post by: The Rabbi on October 28, 2006, 03:13:26 PM
I played host to a German actor a couple of years ago, here as part of our sister cities exchance. He was in his early 70s and didnt speak English at all.
Now in Germany it is all very formal. Everyone is Herr This and Frau That until you get to be good friends or relatives. Even on Lufthansa the attendants are Frau Mueller and Fraulein Braun.
But this guy told me the first evening that since he was in America we ought to do things the American way and I should call him Wolfgang and he'd call me Bill. I had no problem with the second part but there was no way I was going to call this man old enough to be my father Wolfgang. It just seemed so wrong.
Post by: Perd Hapley on October 28, 2006, 08:47:22 PM
Post by: The Rabbi on October 29, 2006, 04:00:56 AM
Are you kidding? I'd love to talk to a Wolfgang, just for the chance to say Wolfgang. Volf-gong. Delicious. (I'm sure the Rabbi will correct my pronunciation somehow.) I didn't know they still had Wolfgangs. Excellent name. What does it mean, anyway?
Wolf is wolf, obviously.Gang is from gehen, to go. So wolf-goer, or one who goes like a wolf.
I considered it briefly as a name for my new son but we settled on Gustav instead.
Post by: Hawkmoon on October 29, 2006, 05:03:03 AM