Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Phyphor on June 14, 2015, 06:11:40 PM
-
http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-sheriff-guns-20150614-story.html#page=1
One sheriff's deputy shot himself in the leg while pulling out his gun to confront a suspect.
Another accidentally fired a bullet in a restroom stall. A third deputy stumbled over a stroller in a closet as he was searching for a suspect, squeezing off a round that went through a wall and lodged in a piece of furniture in the next room.
Accidental gunshots by Los Angeles County sheriff's deputies have more than doubled in two years, endangering bystanders and occasionally injuring deputies. The jump coincides with the department's move to a new handgun that lacks a safety lever and requires less pressure to pull the trigger.
Sheriff's officials say that the increase in accidental discharges — from 12 in 2012 to 30 last year — occurred because deputies were adjusting to the new gun. They expect the numbers to fall in the years ahead. So far this year, the department has recorded seven accidental discharges, five of which involved the new weapon.
But the problems may not be over, as more deputies switch to the Smith & Wesson M&P9. In response, department officials have imposed extra training requirements.
The M&P has obvious benefits. It is easier to shoot accurately, can be fired more reliably under stress and is a better fit for people with small hands. The switch was prompted in part by the threat of a lawsuit by women who had failed the Sheriff's Academy. More recruits — including more women — are now passing the firearms test, and veteran deputies are also logging better scores at the firing range.
But the sharp increase in accidental discharges has prompted an investigation by the Sheriff's Department's new inspector general. Critics say this type of semiautomatic, which is widespread in law enforcement and includes the Glock used by many agencies, is too easy to misfire.
lRelated
County supervisors vote to reconsider size of new Men's Central Jail
L.A. Now
County supervisors vote to reconsider size of new Men's Central Jail
See all related
8
At the New York Police Department, a rookie officer is facing criminal charges, including negligent homicide, in a fatal shooting in a housing project stairwell. An attorney for the officer says he accidentally fired his department-issued Glock.
A former Los Angeles Police Department officer who was paralyzed when his 3-year-old son shot him with a Glock has sued the gun manufacturer and others, alleging that the light trigger pull and lack of a safety mechanism contributed to the accident.
Bob Owens, editor of BearingArms.com, says the design of the Glock and the M&P makes such tragedies more likely. "I don't think, with the amount of training most agencies have, that a gun that has so few tolerances for mistakes is the best choice," he said.
More at the link.
Gee, let's blame the firearm and not the people who theoretically carry it in a professional manner. Brilliant.
Can we say, "pass the buck?"
How about keeping your booger hook off the bang switch? Would that be a fun game?
-
So they're using Smith M&P's now? Nothing wrong with them.
What did they have before?
-
So they're using Smith M&P's now? Nothing wrong with them.
What did they have before?
Berreta 92fs
They also note that LAPD did not have the same issue with a switch to the M&PS, surprise surprise, they were carrying Glocks.
I really wish the general public had a better understanding of just how incopentant these idiots really are.
-
I've spoken to police training officers and they're dismayed at the low quality of recruits, and their lack of interest in actually learning how to shoot. Sure, there are a few - VERY few - cops who are scary good shots. But the majority of rank-and-file officers probably wouldn't do better than "Novice" class at (for example) an IDPA match.
And of course, it wouldn't surprise me if training time and dollars formerly spent on firearms proficiency is now spent on gender, ethnic, and illegal alien sensitivity training.
So it doesn't surprise me that there are more negligent discharges.
-
Police officer is not the best paying job in a lot of places, certainly until you get more experience. However, I don't know how it compares to other skilled or semi-skilled jobs involving manual labor.
-
I've spoken to police training officers and they're dismayed at the low quality of recruits, and their lack of interest in actually learning how to shoot. Sure, there are a few - VERY few - cops who are scary good shots. But the majority of rank-and-file officers probably wouldn't do better than "Novice" class at (for example) an IDPA match.
And of course, it wouldn't surprise me if training time and dollars formerly spent on firearms proficiency is now spent on gender, ethnic, and illegal alien sensitivity training.
So it doesn't surprise me that there are more negligent discharges.
In all honesty, I don't even think they should have to be more than proficient (and by that, based on what they need for the job) at handling firearms. I recognize that they have a lot of other stuff to train on and be proficient at.
What gets me is a lot of them THINK they are super experts firearm masters because they passed their yearly proffeciency test on whatever handgun they carry and then talk down to someone like me (excuse you, officer? That's not actually how ballistics works, but thanks for trying)
It's the cocky *expletive deleted*it I don't like and it's the cocky *expletive deleted*it that probably leads to a lot of these NDs.
-
I can imagine the shock and horror of Jane Q. Idiot, reading this article, discovering there are firearms without a "safety lever." :rofl:
-
Police officer is not the best paying job in a lot of places, certainly until you get more experience. However, I don't know how it compares to other skilled or semi-skilled jobs involving manual labor.
I grossed 60 last year with 4 years on my skilled non-cop job. Last time a local city PD was hiring I could hope to start around 30. Overtime and side work is your only hope.
-
But they're the only ones professional enough to carry a
Glock .40 Smith & Wesson M&P.
I can imagine the shock and horror of Jane Q. Idiot, reading this article, discovering there are firearms without a "safety lever." :rofl:
Speaking of safety levers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTalnzcO0xk
-
Back in the late 1980s the Washington, DC, metro police dropped revolvers went to Glocks.
At the same time they were under a court order to increase hiring (you don't want to know how many of those were either criminals going in, or would become criminals once they got a badge), were suffering through severe budget shortages, and crime levels were going through the roof, fueled mainly by crack.
Training standards were reduced significantly, and the result was a huge spike in the number of accidental/negligent officer involved shootings, more than a few of them involving serious injury or death.
The Washington Post did a pretty good series of articles on the problem in 1998. This is the first of the five articles: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/local/longterm/dcpolice/deadlyforce/police1page1.htm
It's a 5 day series, and all of them are available in that link above.
The Post, for once, didn't blame the gun, it laid the blame with the city, with the police department, with the training requirements, etc.
-
Darn! I was hoping for something dealing with cops shooting themselves while disassembling striker-fired pistols.
Safety lever, schmaftey lever. Whatever became of "Don't put your booger hook on the bang switch until you are ready to shoot" and "Is that your reflection in a mirror or a BG? Are you sure?"
There is only so much a firearms instructor can do in the allotted time when they are not allowed to use batons (and especially head strikes). Cracking Officer Snuffy up side the head would be for the children. "Do it for the chilluns!"
stay safe.
-
So they're using Smith M&P's now? Nothing wrong with them.
IMO, they just went with the wrong generation of M&Ps. The old ones were a lot more appropriate for the skill level of the average cop.
-
The old ones were a lot more appropriate for the skill level of the average cop.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fecx.images-amazon.com%2Fimages%2FI%2F71%252BSXgjdqhL._SL1350_.jpg&hash=e183d461c3eee55b39245719e28431aff1b7e07a)
-
This is why Barney kept his ammo in his pocket.
-
This is why Barney kept his ammo in his pocket.
Barney kept his ammo in his pocket because Andy made him.
http://www.mayberry.info/history/index.php?title=Barney_Fife
County records document that Sheriff Taylor issued Barney his gun in August, 1953 when he gave Barney his oath of office as his deputy.
One major concern of the Sheriff is Barney's lack of ability to handle a firearm safely. After numerous misfires of his police issue Colt .38 Special revolver, Andy restricted Barney to carrying only one bullet in his shirt pocket with the gun unloaded. Barney was told the bullet was only to be used "in case of an emergency."
The bullet, however, seems to find its way back into the gun fairly regularly resulting in Barney accidentally firing a shot into the floor or the ceiling.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLsg0EvZozI
Friend of mine lives in Mt. Airy, NC. There's a guy who goes around reenacting Barney. He can be counted on to whip that cartridge out of his left breast pocket, stick it almost right under your nose, and tell you all sorts of stories about him and "Baby".
stay safe.
-
Um, yeah, I've seen the show. =| Thanks, I guess.
-
So slight thread necro:
I stumbled across (linked from another forum) the following PDF where the LA Sheriff conducts a study on these ND's:
https://oig.lacounty.gov/Portals/OIG/Reports/Unintended%20Discharge%20Report.pdf
Among the gems where they blame equipment for their training failures is this description of an ND from page 20 "Contributing Factor: Weapons Light Activation Related Errors":
A deputy was inexplicably directing traffic with the weapon-mounted light rather than with a flashlight as trained by the LASD. The deputy discharged one round while doing so.
I think I've found the problem......
-
Wow. No one called 911 about him waving his gun around?
-
A deputy was inexplicably directing traffic with the weapon-mounted light rather than with a flashlight as trained by the LASD. The deputy discharged one round while doing so.
Holy hell.
-
Holy hell.
There are not enough facepalms on the internet.
-
Wow! I missed this latest gem!
I love it!
Just about as much as I love the story about the rabidly anti-gun sheriff (can't remember where) blasting a hole in himself because he had an "accidental" discharge.
-
http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-sheriff-guns-20150614-story.html#page=1
More at the link.
Gee, let's blame the firearm and not the people who theoretically carry it in a professional manner. Brilliant.
Can we say, "pass the buck?"
How about keeping your booger hook off the bang switch? Would that be a fun game?
Not the first time this has come up in recent months. I wonder if this is the latest attempt to "hack the narrative".
-
I watched a DHS guy shoot a match with an almost perfect Nd proof cop gun, an Hateyouandyousuck&K DAO .45. Or it could be argued that his every shot was an Nd for the targets got off pretty unscathed.
-
:facepalm:
http://www.inforum.com/content/sheriff-laney-says-deputys-eight-day-suspension-fitting-accidently-discharging-gun-cass
God save us from our "betters" [tinfoil]
-
:facepalm:
http://www.inforum.com/content/sheriff-laney-says-deputys-eight-day-suspension-fitting-accidently-discharging-gun-cass
God save us from our "betters" [tinfoil]
Laney said it hasn't been determined when the unpaid suspension will take place.
Does that mean it will never happen, or does that mean they waited until he had some extra cash saved up, and had a family vacation planned?
-
Holy *expletive deleted*ing hell.
FIFY
-
As I've stated before, http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=48083.msg979441#msg97944
Most cops view their sidearm as merely another piece of kit that they have to carry. Very few are "Gun people". In fact, when I was in the Army most of my soldiers were much better shots with their M16's/203's then with their 1911's. I guess because we expect to use those more then our sidearms should the balloon go up.
Probably the worst was the BATFEIEIO. Their "trainer" was the one guy in the office that hunted. (which I was told was the reason he was picked to be the "trainer".) They came out and did the "40 rounds down-range" thing. Then he broke out his collection of hunting rifles and let his fellow ATFer's shoot them, while he grill venison steaks and burgers on the grill they brought out for the picnic they had when they were done "qualifying", which consisted of him signing off on the forms without even going down range and pulling/checking targets. (We had to take them down and clean up the mess they left. =| ;/ )
The Kane County SWAT team's "practice" consisted of mostly playing grabass, blasting off rounds as quickly as possible, driving around shooting from their up-armored Humvee, high-fiving each other when they actually hit a target, then shooting the *expletive deleted*it while eating the pizzas they had delivered out to the range from the local bar.
All the other shops I saw shoot did the "40 rounds and we're out here, make sure you put in for 8 hours of OT for today." Qualification standards.
The only agency that I saw actually do some real training was Northern Illinois University's police force*. They actually hired real trainers from several different companies (including Blackwater/Xe when they were in Northwest Illinois), and spent the entire day doing shoot and move with IDPA-like scenarios#, most of which they were not shown/walked through prior to engaging. Every scenario was a surprise to them. They did AAR's with each officer/pair after each run, and out of earshot of those who had not shot the scenario. They really did it the right way. And they came out at least every two months for 2 days in row, so that every officer did it at least once.
*- For those that don't now, there was a mass shooting there on 14 Feb 2008. It also happened to be the day I took representatives of Chicago 2016 Olympic committee and USA Shooting on a tour of my club to be the Shooting Sports Venue, if Chicago had gotten the 2016 Olympics. That was an omen.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Illinois_University_shooting (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Illinois_University_shooting)
#- ASC has 13 different Rifle and Pistol ranges, so they would book 11 ranges for the (week)day, except for the one 50 yard range and the 100 yard range so that members could shoot rifle and pistol.
-
Back when I got my May Issue LA CHP in 94, I shot the same qualifying course the local Sheriff's officers had to shoot under the department's range officer/whatever ya call the head cheese for that, and did it with a $99 Norinco Tokarev scoring 95/100 never having had training for that sort of thing! I had to do strong/weak hand, barricade, one and two handed, close quarters combat, hip/point shooting, all timed and from at distances from 25 to 3 or 4 yards (CQCB). The guy was kinda ticked that a "civilian" out shot most of his officers with no experience on that type of course and with a cheap Chinese pistol. >:D
-
I have a friend who is an officer with Cincinnati Police Department and he echos the same thing that scout says, most officers are not gun guys and view the gun as just a tool.
-
Well, a tool is something you learn how to use properly so I am not sure that is the right word choice.
The comments from the board at the range I belong to is that police tend to make a mess and don't clean up after themselves. There are some LEO's that are members (even few that are life members), but they don't let any of the local departments train there.
-
I'm going to throw this in the mix. Budget constraints come into play here. Money and time. Our security guys had to shoot quals three times a year when I got hired on. 80-100 rounds. Also required two days per year hand-to-hand and weapon retention back then. Now, it's once a year of each, and the course of fire is no more than 50 rounds. Why the change? Cut costs. Less ammo cost. Less time away from work, so less paying for a sub at work while the employee is off at training. Less overtime costs if training is on a day off or after work hours. We have 10 guys, so the savings wasn't that great. Around a thosand rounds of ammo and 30 work days. It would be significant for a large agency.