Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: roo_ster on August 24, 2015, 07:13:36 AM
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Due to a Lack of Mass Immigration, Japan Is Plagued by a Rising Standard of Living
http://www.unz.com/isteve/due-to-a-lack-of-mass-immigration-japan-is-plagued-by-a-rising-standard-of-living/
When reading articles in the American press about problems in America, such as high prices for homes, inequality, low wages, low test scores, and so forth, it’s always fun to hit CTRL-F (or Command-F on a Mac) to see if the text string “migra” is included anywhere in the article. Normally, in articles about troubles in America, there’s no mention of the role of “immigration,” “immigrants,” “migration,” or whatever.
When reading American articles about conditions in Japan, such as increasing housing space per Japanese person, it’s interesting to try the same thing. You’ll often see that “immigration” is mentioned in the article, although not as a problem, of course. Instead, it is always The Solution for whatever is said to ail Japan.
For example, here’s a new New York Times article about how the Japanese aren’t quite as squeezed into tiny living spaces as they used to be. Of course, the cure for whatever ails Japan is immigration, even when, at the very end of the article, the reporter reveals that it isn’t actually a problem.
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Due to a Lack of Mass Immigration, Japan Is Plagued by a Rising Standard of Living
http://www.unz.com/isteve/due-to-a-lack-of-mass-immigration-japan-is-plagued-by-a-rising-standard-of-living/
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fvignette3.wikia.nocookie.net%2Fgodzilla%2Fimages%2F0%2F00%2FGodzilla_Destroys_a_Geisha%26%23039%3Bs_House_0001.jpg%2Frevision%2Flatest%3Fcb%3D20110518003816&hash=eec0ac58847af170c447d417337033106bf09ec3)
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Post deleted for over-snarkiness.
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Post deleted for over-snarkiness.
Is that even possible?
Would it be something akin to "The Snarkularity?"
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IIRC back in 1945 Japan was bracing for a wave of mass immigration.
stay safe.
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IIRC back in 1945 Japan was bracing for a wave of mass immigration.
stay safe.
That would have led to a serious downfall... =D.. :facepalm:
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Except their population is aging and shrinking. Makes sense, they're an advanced society with a good economy. Barring other factors, less people mean the existing stuff is distributed to a smaller pool. They're either going to somehow kickstart their reproduction rates, or import bodies, in a couple decades, though. Japan is going to need a lot of bodies for caretaking, medical industry and fixing infrastructure.
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Except their population is aging and shrinking. Makes sense, they're an advanced society with a good economy. Barring other factors, less people mean the existing stuff is distributed to a smaller pool. They're either going to somehow kickstart their reproduction rates, or import bodies, in a couple decades, though. Japan is going to need a lot of bodies for caretaking, medical industry and fixing infrastructure.
Good luck with that in a xenophobic culture. But I'm sure they could sweet-talk Koreans and Chinese and Burmese (to name a few) to come back to work for them - or at least send their grandchildren.
Seriously, they are going to have to change their ways beyond accepting western clothing styles.
stay safe.
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They are going to fade from the world stage. Xenophobia + birth rate < replacement rate = extinction.
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We could easily spare a few million Mexicans and assorted other Latinos ...
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They are going to fade from the world stage. Xenophobia + birth rate < replacement rate = extinction.
No more tentacle porn or incomprehensible game shows?
Sad Panda is sad. =(
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They are going to fade from the world stage. Xenophobia + birth rate < replacement rate = extinction.
No no no. According to rooster, their lack of immigration has made them a paradise.
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They are going to fade from the world stage. Xenophobia + birth rate < replacement rate = extinction.
Your equation is lacking.
birth rate < replacement rate = extinction
1. Only if such continues until population is zero.
2. Xenophobia has nothing to do with it. Even if those numbers were replaced with Oaxacan immigrants, the Japanese would still be extinct, because Japan would no longer be Japan, but "Oaxaca East."
3. Immigration retards the birth rate of the locals. Increasing immigration significantly would likely retard Japan's birth rate even more, just as mass immigration retards American birth rates.
Assuming current birth & death rates in Japan and zero immigration, in 2100 Japan will have the same population they had when they defeated Russia on the mainland of Asia in 1905.
No no no. According to rooster, their lack of immigration has made them a paradise.
[bob_dole]Yeah, stop lying about my record.[/bob_dole]
Paradise? Not so sure. But it sure has maintained their standard of living.
The USA would likely greatly benefit from zero immigration going forward and expulsion of the 40million currently in the USA. My wife and I are not the only family that limited the number of children we had due to the deleterious effects of mass immigration on the cost of raising a family.
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I actually agree with you, on the US and immigration.
For japan, however, they have a dwindling native population. The rising quality of living will deteriorate as the workforce ages further and cannot keep up with infrastructure, medical care etc.
I think you're comparing apples to oranges here.
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be happy to send our Japanese friends a couple million mexicans. ;/
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be happy to send our Japanese friends a couple million mexicans. ;/
To do the jobs that the Japanese won't do :angel:
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Your equation is lacking.
birth rate < replacement rate = extinction
1. Only if such continues until population is zero.
2. Xenophobia has nothing to do with it. Even if those numbers were replaced with Oaxacan immigrants, the Japanese would still be extinct, because Japan would no longer be Japan, but "Oaxaca East."
3. Immigration retards the birth rate of the locals. Increasing immigration significantly would likely retard Japan's birth rate even more, just as mass immigration retards American birth rates.
Assuming current birth & death rates in Japan and zero immigration, in 2100 Japan will have the same population they had when they defeated Russia on the mainland of Asia in 1905.
[bob_dole]Yeah, stop lying about my record.[/bob_dole]
Paradise? Not so sure. But it sure has maintained their standard of living.
The USA would likely greatly benefit from zero immigration going forward and expulsion of the 40million currently in the USA. My wife and I are not the only family that limited the number of children we had due to the deleterious effects of mass immigration on the cost of raising a family.
I beg to differ. If émigrés assume, embrace, and adopt the Japanese culture, Japan lives on. The Japanese don't allow any meaningful number to even try. On the second point in bold, they may have the same number of people, but the demos will skewed to the Geritol set, big time.
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I beg to differ. If émigrés assume, embrace, and adopt the Japanese culture, Japan lives on. The Japanese don't allow any meaningful number to even try. On the second point in bold, they may have the same number of people, but the demos will skewed to the Geritol set, big time.
Beg all you want, Japan lives or dies with the Japanese. Demography is destiny.
1. You are living in fantasy unicornland if you expect migrants who come in a large mass are going to adopt the indigenous culture. History is not kind to your thesis.
2. Still more unicornland if you think Oaxacan immigrants could maintain Japanese civilization, even if they were willing. They just do not have the human capital that the Japanese do.
Skewed, yes, but Japan will be able to dig deeper for more capable people than in 1905, when a large proportion of the population still was prevented from achieving more than peasant. So, less cannon fodder, but more capable and trainable warriors. Plus, robots.
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I'm with roo_ster. If immigrants won't assimilate here, into one of the most materially prosperous, indulgent, egalitarian, small-l liberal civilizations in history, they're not going to hop on board to man the oars of a hierarchical society steeped in xenophobia and sacrifice for the collective. Besides which, I'm thinking the "we like fish heads and baby octopus" thing might be a turn-off to many.
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I'm with roo_ster. If immigrants won't assimilate here, into one of the most materially prosperous, indulgent, egalitarian, small-l liberal civilizations in history, they're not going to hop on board to man the oars of a hierarchical society steeped in xenophobia and sacrifice for the collective. Besides which, I'm thinking the "we like fish heads and baby octopus" thing might be a turn-off to many.
Actually all kinds of immigrants, from many countries, assimilate here and are probably more patriotic than many native born Americans. The non-assimilators are pretty much from only a couple of general regions of the globe, one of them, unfortunately, being connected to us by a porous border.
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Actually all kinds of immigrants, from many countries, assimilate here and are probably more patriotic than many native born Americans. The non-assimilators are pretty much from only a couple of general regions of the globe, one of them, unfortunately, being connected to us by a porous border.
Fair enough, but I stand by the assertion that the melting pot doesn't reach the temperatures it used to, and that those who do assimilate here would still be less inclined to do so in a closed society such as Japan.
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Beg all you want, Japan lives or dies with the Japanese. Demography is destiny.
1. You are living in fantasy unicornland if you expect migrants who come in a large mass are going to adopt the indigenous culture. History is not kind to your thesis.
2. Still more unicornland if you think Oaxacan immigrants could maintain Japanese civilization, even if they were willing. They just do not have the human capital that the Japanese do.
Skewed, yes, but Japan will be able to dig deeper for more capable people than in 1905, when a large proportion of the population still was prevented from achieving more than peasant. So, less cannon fodder, but more capable and trainable warriors. Plus, robots.
So let me get this right, you're okay with them self immolating their culture if it means not embracing some sort of immigration?
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Fair enough, but I stand by the assertion that the melting pot doesn't reach the temperatures it used to, and that those who do assimilate here would still be less inclined to do so in a closed society such as Japan.
Agreed. When you have multi-generational residents still only speaking their native language, and infrastructure that enables them (how often do you call a business where you have to choose between Spanish and English, and you have to hit an extra button to default to English? Answer - too often) you end up with the melting temp turned down.
I also agree that the Japanese don't put up with that crap, but via their xenophobia, make it harder to assimilate even for those that really want to and that would be benefiial to their society.
A good immigration policy would be something between the US free for all and Xenophobic Japan. I like policies similar to Australia and New Zealand, where you have to show that you're going to, if not be a productive member of society, be wealthy enough to support yourself. Of course as island nations, their border enforcement is a bit easier to implement than is ours.
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So let me get this right, you're okay with them self immolating their culture if it means not embracing some sort of immigration?
Doesn't matter if I am OK with it. The opinions of the Japanese are of paramount importance, I would think. Even then, reality respects nobody's opinion(1). FTR, acquiescing to being drowned by a foreign culture is also another means of self-immolation.
I would prefer they ran their country as they saw fit and remained Japanese. Still waiting for the Emperor's call to get it on the record with the Japanese, though.
I also agree that the Japanese don't put up with that crap, but via their xenophobia
Hmm, why does it have to be "xenophobia?" Maybe the Japanese just like the Japanese? And prefer to associate with other Japanese. Japan for the Japanese, Europe for the Europeans, Africa for the Africans and America for the Americans.
Note (1):
"Istanbul (Not Constantinople)"
Istanbul was Constantinople
Now it's Istanbul, not Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Constantinople
Now it's Turkish delight on a moonlit night
Every gal in Constantinople
Lives in Istanbul, not Constantinople
So if you've a date in Constantinople
She'll be waiting in Istanbul
Even old New York was once New Amsterdam
Why they changed it I can't say
People just liked it better that way
So take me back to Constantinople
No, you can't go back to Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Constantinople
Why did Constantinople get the works?
That's nobody's business but the Turks
Istanbul (Istanbul)
Istanbul (Istanbul)
Even old New York was once New Amsterdam
Why they changed it I can't say
People just liked it better that way
Istanbul was Constantinople
Now it's Istanbul, not Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Constantinople
Why did Constantinople get the works?
That's nobody's business but the Turks
So take me back to Constantinople
No, you can't go back to Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Constantinople
Why did Constantinople get the works?
That's nobody's business but the Turks
Istanbul
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Ben used the term xenophobia because I did. Is there anything wrong with it? Yes, if you're prepared to let your civilization atrophy and wither rather than risk some hybrid vigor. If that's what they want, so be it. Perhaps India will introduce a new flavor of anime.
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Hmm, why does it have to be "xenophobia?" Maybe the Japanese just like the Japanese? And prefer to associate with other Japanese. Japan for the Japanese, Europe for the Europeans, Africa for the Africans and America for the Americans.
Note (1):
It doesn't have to be xenophobia if you're speaking in generalities, but it doesn't take much researching to discover Japan's xenophobic history.
As for America for Americans, not sure Monroe Doctrine can be applied in the modern world, unless you want to pay $100 for a pair of socks.
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Doesn't matter if I am OK with it. The opinions of the Japanese are of paramount importance, I would think. Even then, reality respects nobody's opinion(1). FTR, acquiescing to being drowned by a foreign culture is also another means of self-immolation.
Note (1):
Gotcha.
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And in describing Japanese Xenophobia, there's a cart-n-horse issue of determining "situational Xenophobia", vs. what I'd term "willful Xenophobia".
To a degree, it's easy to see that their island status, combined with more widely shared Asian cultural values, the Xenophobia is kind of natural to a point. Not saying it's "good", but it's understandable. You live out generations on an island nation with such a high degree of ethnic homogeneity, and are saddled with a nominal culture that has a high degree of social conformity and propriety, you see how it can happen. And without a ton of "let's be mean and exclusive in the KKK/Nazi sense of things" either.
However, exposed to the wider modern world, you can see where the willful part comes into play. But then the whole thing loops back in on itself, trying to determine what part of it is just being mean and stubborn, vs. what their whole island has lived with.
But I'm biased, and I tend to think about these things in a somewhat amoral utilitarian manner, believing that (classical) liberal Western Civ is what's best. (shrug)
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However, exposed to the wider modern world, you can see where the willful part comes into play. But then the whole thing loops back in on itself, trying to determine what part of it is just being mean and stubborn, vs. what their whole island has lived with.
But I'm biased, and I tend to think about these things in a somewhat amoral utilitarian manner, believing that (classical) liberal Western Civ is what's best. (shrug)
What if your exposure to the wider, modern world shows you that the majority in that world are stinking savages incapable of assimilating or maintaining your civilization? Literally, they stink more than your reference group. And they act in ways that are not only foreign, but objectively more primitive (relative to your reference group)?
All these accusations of xenophobia and chewing over the causes of it forget a few things and seems an attempt to circumvent any thought on the issue:
1. There are good, objective reasons why a local population would not want to admit immigrants.
2. It is their (i)land and their culture, so piss off.
3. Some people do not believe in the magic of transformational dirt in that moving a benighted peasant who still pisses in the same stream from which they get their drinking water from one spot on Earth to another spot on Earth transforms that peasant into a solid citizen of a representative republic founded on 18th century liberalism.
Liberal Western Civ is my favored civilization, too. But, it is pretty obvious that:
1. Some groups have the capacity to neither begin nor maintain western civ.
2. Some groups may have what it takes, but do not want to partake. The lie that "scratch a foreigner_of_some_sort" and you'll find an American underneath has been proved wrong many, many times.
3. Introduce too many non-Anglo, non-NW Europeans into a liberal Western civilization and soon you no longer have liberal Western civ.
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3. Some people do not believe in the magic of transformational dirt in that moving a benighted peasant who still pisses in the same stream from which they get their drinking water from one spot on Earth to another spot on Earth transforms that peasant into a solid citizen of a representative republic founded on 18th century liberalism.
I'm still pissed off at Oppenheimer, Von Braun, Bethe, and Einstein for pissing in my stream. Damn savages. Not to mention Sandra Bullock.
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I'm still pissed off at Oppenheimer, Von Braun, Bethe, and Einstein for pissing in my stream. Damn savages. Not to mention Sandra Bullock.
I don't think you are making the point you hoped to make.
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I don't think you are making the point you hoped to make.
Actually I am. Exactly.
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Shall we compare and contrast this thread (Japan and it's lack of immigrants) to Europe, and the recent flood of folks trying to get in?
We have had numerous threads regarding the Islamic Republic of Great Britain and how well that's working out for them.
In Germany*, you have 7% of the population causing over 90% of the problems (I worked with the Polizei, they hated the Turks and other "Musselmen" with a passion because they were always causing problems). See the other thread: http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=49390.0
And to quote Tam
...but the recent immigrant welfare sponge class is playing with fire here. Euros have a proven zero-to-jackboots time lower than just about anybody on the planet. Get Gunter or Pierre all backed into a corner and feeling existentially threatened and you'll be wishing you hadn't, faster than you can say "Arbeit Macht Frei".
- http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2013/05/stockholm-is-burning.html
Even out very own Viking has described on these pages what is going in the Liberal/Progressive Paradise/role model of Sweden...
http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=39681.0
http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=47268.0
http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=49302.0
While Japan's population may be decreasing/aging NOW, that doesn't mean it will decrease/age ALWAYS. Population growth is not a straight line, but it fluctuates over time. You cannot take a short term trend and project out to forever.
*- It's an entire country that's really farking beyond OCD when it comes to following the rules.
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Shall we compare and contrast this thread (Japan and it's lack of immigrants) to Europe, and the recent flood of folks trying to get in?
While Japan's population may be decreasing/aging NOW, that doesn't mean it will decrease/age ALWAYS. Population growth is not a straight line, but it fluctuates over time. You cannot take a short term trend and project out to forever.
*- It's an entire country that's really farking beyond OCD when it comes to following the rules.
Which is why you want a policy somewhere between the current free for all in the US and "anyone approaching our wall will be shot on site".