Post by: Perd Hapley on November 09, 2006, 05:44:10 AM
Should I sick some old Jewish ladies on 'em? Got a lot of those around here.
Post by: ilbob on November 09, 2006, 05:49:41 AM
Post by: Mannlicher on November 09, 2006, 05:53:58 AM
Post by: Fly320s on November 09, 2006, 06:48:29 AM
Post by: Sindawe on November 09, 2006, 07:05:56 AM
If the topic of politics does not come up and they cause no trouble with your follow employees, whats the issue? It it any worse than having the floor done by people with "Viva La Raza" bumper stickers on their van?
Post by: CAnnoneer on November 09, 2006, 07:11:02 AM
Post by: Perd Hapley on November 09, 2006, 07:15:44 AM
Fly320s, I didn't notice the bumper stickers until after I let them into the vacant apartment they were to work in. When one of them came down later, I noticed that his hair was extremely short, just short of being shaved. They are young, skinny white dudes, and I think they are both blond, like myself. For what it's worth, I am a blue-haired, blond-eyed,
short-haired, light-skinned fellow myself, but my hair is not THAT short.Mannlicher, I could ask them, but I think it will be best not to stir up anything.
ilbob, I'm letting them work, and I expect they will just do their jobs and leave. They are working in an empty apartment where they shouldn't have much contact with residents. However, this is a Jewish part of town (and I suspect they know that), and more than half of my residents are Jewish or Black. It's bad enough they have these bumper stickers that make me suspicious.
Thanks, Sindawe. La Raza would be less of a problem, just because they don't have such a bad public image. And because I have so many Jews living here. I have plenty of Hispanic workers doing jobs out here, but haven't seen any La Raza stickers yet.
Post by: wingnutx on November 09, 2006, 07:18:02 AM
Traditional skinheads don't go in for that crap.
Post by: wingnutx on November 09, 2006, 07:24:30 AM
Post by: meinbruder on November 09, 2006, 07:32:39 AM
Two guys just showed up to do a flooring job at my place of employment. On their van, one bumper sticker reads, "No war for Israel." The other bumper sticker says, "Ich Kampfe," I believe. I'm wondering if they might be white supremacists. Can anyone translate?
Should I sick some old Jewish ladies on 'em? Got a lot of those around here.
Should I sick some old Jewish ladies on 'em? Got a lot of those around here.
Kampfe translates as fights, battles or struggles; Ich is I. It looks like the statement I struggle, but the vowel is plural so the exact meaning is open to interpretation as a slogan. Hitlers book, Mein Kampf, is generally translated as My Struggle; it looks to me like you have something more than just a skinhead on the premises. If you send in a little old Jewish lady, make sure shes from Mossad.
Mike
Post by: The Rabbi on November 09, 2006, 07:42:11 AM
I wouldn't antagonize the boneheads. I wouldn't hire them for a job either. Or at least unless I could stick a Black foreman over them
Post by: Perd Hapley on November 09, 2006, 07:53:41 AM
Post by: wingnutx on November 09, 2006, 08:13:33 AM
Post by: wingnutx on November 09, 2006, 09:10:01 AM
Kind of like 'republican' or 'gun owner'
Post by: SomeKid on November 09, 2006, 12:08:19 PM
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I will probably ask that they not be sent out for the next job.
What if they do a good job? Set the politics aside, a good worker is a good worker, even if an idiot.
Post by: Perd Hapley on November 09, 2006, 12:13:50 PM
Post by: Chuck Dye on November 09, 2006, 12:27:46 PM
ooops, edit to add: throw in bumper sticker, as well.
Post by: Vodka7 on November 09, 2006, 12:33:14 PM
Also, as an aside, one time a few friends and I were heading out of a bar pretty late one night and saw four skins walking through the parking lot. And when I say skins, it couldn't have been more obvious who they were or at least who they were trying to look like--for all I know they decided to buy the Little Nazi halloween costume and wear it around in September. They had the shaved heads, the weird black jacket every skinhead you've ever seen on TV wears, and the tight black jeans and boots to match.
This being Southern Connecticut and all, I had to take a minute and pretend to smoke a cigarette so I could watch and see what kind of car they got into. I've never met any skinheads, so I had to find out what they drive--would it be an import? An american? Would there be a confederate flag involved somewhere? Maybe a support your troops ribbon?
Well, just take a second and think about what the most stereotypical car they could possibly get in would be. Remember--these guys are wearing the complete uniform and obviously very concerned that they look like skins.
Give up?
A WHITE VOLKSWAGEN.
No bumper stickers, though.
Post by: wingnutx on November 09, 2006, 12:41:37 PM
the weird black jacket every skinhead you've ever seen on TV
MA-1 flight jacket?
I hope it was a VW Thing
Post by: Werewolf on November 09, 2006, 12:43:44 PM
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These are guys working for our flooring company, or, more likely, working for a company that works for our flooring company. I will probably ask that they not be sent out for the next job.
It seems bigotry comes in many forms and flavors.
You are making judgements based on bumper stickers - maybe valid maybe not but still only judgements.
If you want to hate them do so for good reason - find out from them if the bumper stickers and your interpretation of same are in fact what you imagine. Then your hate will be based on fact not presumption.
Besides - what ever their politics is is really none of your business as long as they do a good job. Recommending that they not be hired because of their politics is no better than if you didn't like them because they were jews, gay, black or OH MY GOD the HORROR of it ALL - GUN OWNERS - no different at all.
Post by: wingnutx on November 09, 2006, 12:45:52 PM
Post by: The Rabbi on November 09, 2006, 12:51:31 PM
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These are guys working for our flooring company, or, more likely, working for a company that works for our flooring company. I will probably ask that they not be sent out for the next job.
It seems bigotry comes in many forms and flavors.
You are making judgements based on bumper stickers - maybe valid maybe not but still only judgements.
If you want to hate them do so for good reason - find out from them if the bumper stickers and your interpretation of same are in fact what you imagine. Then your hate will be based on fact not presumption.
Besides - what ever their politics is is really none of your business as long as they do a good job. Recommending that they not be hired because of their politics is no better than if you didn't like them because they were jews, gay, black or OH MY GOD the HORROR of it ALL - GUN OWNERS - no different at all.
Post by: Guest on November 09, 2006, 12:54:31 PM
It seems bigotry comes in many forms and flavors.
Recognizing a person's self-identification is not bigotry. If someone walks up to you and says "hey, I am a skinhead" you arent a bigot by thinking that they are a skinhead. CLEARLY these gentlemen do not mind the association, as they are deliberatly promoting it.
Post by: wingnutx on November 09, 2006, 12:56:33 PM
Recommending that they not be hired because of their politics is no better than if you didn't like them because they were jews, gay, black or OH MY GOD the HORROR of it ALL - GUN OWNERS - no different at all.
Nazi boneheads made a concious choice to be malicious, dangerous imbeciles. Not wanting to hire someone who is obviously hostile, immature, and has poor judgement & impulse control is not remotely like discriminating against someone because of their race, religion, or even gun ownership.
Post by: Guest on November 09, 2006, 01:00:41 PM
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Recommending that they not be hired because of their politics is no better than if you didn't like them because they were jews, gay, black or OH MY GOD the HORROR of it ALL - GUN OWNERS - no different at all
The skinheads themselves would happily support legislation that allowed this sort of preferencial hiring. Frankly, so would I as I dont see why anyone should be forced to employ people they dont want to for whatever reason they see fit.
Post by: Declaration Day on November 09, 2006, 01:19:18 PM
I agree that politics should be irrelevant as long as you do a good job, but some people DO consider such things.
I'm a certified gun nut, a Libertarian, and a member of the Southeast Michigan Volunteer Militia. You'll see no indications of any of that on my company's work trucks.
It is foolish to jeopardize your livelihood for the sake of publicizing your beliefs.
Besides, while there's nothing wrong with advancing your principles, using bumper stickers to do so is not very productive.
Post by: Perd Hapley on November 09, 2006, 01:38:21 PM
But it might be that I'm too quick to judge. I mean, any one of us might go to a work site in a vehicle with neo-Nazi bumper stickers, right?
Seriously, Werewolf, if they hadn't advertised their point of view, it never would have made any difference. But as it is, I can't have my employer paying them to be offensive to all of our customers, and threatening to over half of them.
Post by: Lee on November 09, 2006, 03:35:51 PM
Post by: Perd Hapley on November 09, 2006, 04:02:43 PM
Post by: Lee on November 09, 2006, 04:46:46 PM
Post by: Werewolf on November 09, 2006, 05:19:51 PM
Because you don't like Skinhead politics, attitudes etc you think it is OK to discriminate against them.
I say again!
As long as they do a good job and don't proselytize, harass or otherwise bother the apartment's tenants, employees or management then discriminating against them is exactly the same as any other type of employment discrimination and it truly saddens me to see that here.
Open your eyes guys for none are so blind as those who won't see - except you Rabbi - there's no hope for you at all.
Post by: Guest on November 09, 2006, 05:29:13 PM
Because you don't like Skinhead politics, attitudes etc you think it is OK to discriminate against them.
Yeah I do. I reserve the right to employ whoever I want. I also think its OK to discriminate against any other psychopath that happens to walk into my place of business. Put a NAMBLA sticker on your truck and you will get the same treatment.
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As long as they do a good job and don't proselytize, harass or otherwise bother the apartment's tenants, employees or management then discriminating against them is exactly the same as any other type of employment discrimination and it truly saddens me to see that here.
How is it the same? I can't discriminate against people because of their race because they were born that way. This morons DECIDED to become skinheads, that choice has consequences, and it isnt my fault that they made it.
Post by: Werewolf on November 09, 2006, 05:52:29 PM
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How is it the same? I can't discriminate against people because of their race because they were born that way. This morons DECIDED to become skinheads, that choice has consequences, and it isnt my fault that they made it.
Practicing any religion is a choice. You're born into a religion not with it coded into your genes - is it OK to discriminate against Jews, muslims, catholics? Being an RKBA activist is a choice - is it right that we're discriminated against and even excoriated by some?These guys at fistful's workplace may very well be skin heads but he doesn't know that and that is the key issue - he doesn't know. The German phrase Ich Kampfe can be interpreted in a number of ways. Maybe the struggle the guy's bumper sticker is referring to is an RKBA struggle - maybe (and I know lots of gunnies with crewcuts and two that are out and out bald - one spent his early chidhood in wartime Hamburg and still has a strong german accent even after living in the USA since 1948 - gee - bald, has a strong German accent and likes guns - must be a skinhead). Without asking them or observing overt anti-social, violent or any other disreputable behavior (which would be grounds for not hiring them in the future) all fistful has are guesses not facts.
If a person has the right kind of nose and name one might guess they're a practicing Jew - lets discriminate against her. Would you discriminate against black man whose appearance might suggest that he's a follower of Louis Farrahkan? How about a man dressed in overalls, no shirt, with a strong southern accent - he might be a member of the KKK. You gonna discriminate against him because of a might be. Fistful is basing his prejudice on a number of might be's - not facts and that is what makes his discrimination wrong - he does not know those guys are skinheads - he only thinks it.
Discrimination in any form is wrong. This is still America and discrimination is something that many have fought to ban from our culture for years. Seems they've still got a ways to go.
Post by: ...has left the building. on November 09, 2006, 06:00:53 PM
Post by: Werewolf on November 09, 2006, 06:07:38 PM
Umm..."Ich Kämpfe" was the title of the Nazi party's testament book; you received a copy upon joining the Nazi party IIRC.
You do know this is the United States of America don't you? When did being a NAZI (as repugnant as that is) become illegal? Didn't the supreme court settle that question back in the 50's?
Post by: wingnutx on November 09, 2006, 06:08:28 PM
I wouldn't want crips or bloods going into my tenants houses, either.
If you think boneheads are any less a bunch of criminal thugs than any other street gang, then you probably have not had the pleasure of dealing with them.
Post by: wingnutx on November 09, 2006, 06:11:35 PM
You do know this is the United States of America don't you? When did being a NAZI (as repugnant as that is) become illegal? Didn't the supreme court settle that question back in the 50's?
It's not illegal to be a nazi, latin king, or nambla member, but freedom of association means that I don't have to keep those people near me.
I wouldn't hire a nambla member to watch children, and I wouldn't let a member of a violent gang into my customer's property. It's not even close ot being a civil rights issue.
Post by: Guest on November 09, 2006, 06:24:56 PM
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Practicing any religion is a choice. You're born into a religion not with it coded into your genes - is it OK to discriminate against Jews, muslims, catholics? Being an RKBA activist is a choice - is it right that we're discriminated against and even excoriated by some?
Yes, and as I said before, the skinheads would agree.
Post by: wingnutx on November 09, 2006, 06:34:01 PM
I am funny that way.
Try to get me to hire you after I see a Hamas sticker on your car.
Post by: Perd Hapley on November 09, 2006, 07:01:26 PM
Their politics really isn't at issue. The idea that Ich Kampfe has some other meaning is really not worth considering, but even if it were, the problem is the image being projected to the residents. This is a "controlled-access" apartment building, with most of the residents being retired people, over half of whom are Jewish or Black. I'd prefer not to let anyone into their home that they would have good reason to feel offended or threatened by. And I don't think they'd tolerate it for very long. They have quite enough complaints, as it is.
If you've read my posts, you know that I have strong opinions on a lot of things. Much as I despise racism, I hate abortion even more. But I don't discriminate on those other issues. The issue at hand is my residents' perception of what is acceptable. They might not like my Bush/Cheney sticker, but if I put some Klan sticker on my truck, I couldn't very well expect them to bear that, could I? I think some of those old white ladies don't like having Black or Hispanic contractors in their apartments. Well, I'm going to stick up for those off-color contractors, and I don't care what those old biddies think. But overt racists who can't even keep their opinions to themselves on the job? No, I'm not going to help them. Anyone careless enough to drive somebody else's van with racist stickers they don't believe in? They'll just have to deal with the consequences.
Post by: Antibubba on November 09, 2006, 09:07:56 PM
If you just HAVE to know, walk in whistling "Hava Negilah". Just be careful, because carpet tools are really sharp!
Post by: Harold Tuttle on November 10, 2006, 02:05:02 AM
Quote
Book Ich Kampfe, I Fight from the SS Library (Item SS 27-8; NSD 12-4)
DESCRIPTION: Ich Kampfe was the watchword and struggle motif of the Bewegung (the Nazi movement) and this little book was considered the most important publication that would support patriotism and pride in the people who followed it. Each and every inspiring picture is summoned up to illustrate the inner and outer spirit of the time. The nobility of race and purpose from the epic early struggle to the heroes and the rallies, the buildings, the SS, the SA, the army, the leaders, martyrs, the beginnings, and the triumphs before the tragedy. It was published by the inner party office itself. Perfect early Agfa color is seen here; far beyond any other countrys progress with clean natural hues. At least 10 of these books were among those found and sold at the special auction of the Library of the SS-Totenkopf Standarte Oberbayern . You can see its bookplate in the print page of the volume. This particular book was produced in 1938, but subsequent printings followed each year. This one was issued in 1944. It measures 8 1/2 x 9 1/2 inches with a beautiful Reichs eagle highly embossed on the cover. There are 100 pages full of wonderful pictures and inspiring text in German. Here is the ultimate history book of the NS Movement.
PRICE: $350.00; rare and SS
DESCRIPTION: Ich Kampfe was the watchword and struggle motif of the Bewegung (the Nazi movement) and this little book was considered the most important publication that would support patriotism and pride in the people who followed it. Each and every inspiring picture is summoned up to illustrate the inner and outer spirit of the time. The nobility of race and purpose from the epic early struggle to the heroes and the rallies, the buildings, the SS, the SA, the army, the leaders, martyrs, the beginnings, and the triumphs before the tragedy. It was published by the inner party office itself. Perfect early Agfa color is seen here; far beyond any other countrys progress with clean natural hues. At least 10 of these books were among those found and sold at the special auction of the Library of the SS-Totenkopf Standarte Oberbayern . You can see its bookplate in the print page of the volume. This particular book was produced in 1938, but subsequent printings followed each year. This one was issued in 1944. It measures 8 1/2 x 9 1/2 inches with a beautiful Reichs eagle highly embossed on the cover. There are 100 pages full of wonderful pictures and inspiring text in German. Here is the ultimate history book of the NS Movement.
PRICE: $350.00; rare and SS
http://www.germaniainternational.com/ss27.html
Quote
Editorial Reviews
Product Description
A perfect reproduction of the actual handbook distributed by the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiter Partei (NSDAP or National Socialist German Worker Party) to each new enrollee in the Nazi Party during the early 1940s. This 144 page book contains an English translation.
Product Description
A perfect reproduction of the actual handbook distributed by the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiter Partei (NSDAP or National Socialist German Worker Party) to each new enrollee in the Nazi Party during the early 1940s. This 144 page book contains an English translation.
http://www.amazon.com/Ich-Kampfe-Fight-Ray-Cowdery/dp/0910667012/sr=8-1/qid=1163160159/ref=sr_1_1/002-2303086-9797653?ie=UTF8&s=books
Post by: ...has left the building. on November 10, 2006, 02:25:52 AM
Umm..."Ich Kämpfe" was the title of the Nazi party's testament book; you received a copy upon joining the Nazi party IIRC.
You do know this is the United States of America don't you? When did being a NAZI (as repugnant as that is) become illegal? Didn't the supreme court settle that question back in the 50's?Since when did it become illegal to exercise your rights of capitalism and not hire somebody?
Post by: Perd Hapley on November 10, 2006, 03:01:09 AM
Since when did it become illegal to exercise your rights of capitalism and not hire somebody?
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The Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, or EEOC, is a United States federal agency tasked with ending employment discrimination in the United States. Signed into law by President John F. Kennedy by Executive Order 10925, it can bring suit on behalf of alleged victims of discrimination against private employers. It also serves as an adjudicatory for claims of discrimination brought against federal agencies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Employment_Opportunity_CommissionIf some neo-NAZI's start their own flooring company, I fully support their right to hire whomever they wish, and refuse service to anyone they wish, and sport offensive bumper stickers. I will exercise my right to discriminate against them.
Post by: The Rabbi on November 10, 2006, 03:41:08 AM
Open your eyes guys for none are so blind as those who won't see - except you Rabbi - there's no hope for you at all.
Given your theory and your arguments, that's the nicest thing anyone's said to me on this board yet.
Post by: cordex on November 10, 2006, 05:10:04 AM
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You do know this is the United States of America don't you? When did being a NAZI (as repugnant as that is) become illegal? Didn't the supreme court settle that question back in the 50's?
Who said anything about "legal", Werewolf?Fistful isn't calling the cops on these bozos, he's declining to employ them in the future strictly because of the perceptions of his clients and the fear of losing business through offending them. And frankly I think he's making an excellent decision on that count.
You're trying ever so hard to use the Left's watchwords and turn these guys into victims and martyrs.
They aren't.
1. These little Nazi wannabes have gone out of their way to advertise their viewpoints. All your attempting to weasel them out of them won't change that.
2. "Ich Kampfe" has a very clear and established meaning. The producers and sellers of these bumper stickers are very clear on that.
3. Fistful has the freedom to choose who he does business with. As Mr. Flory pointed out, it isn't illegal to choose who he wants to hire to fix his floors.
4. Fistful has an obligation to his clients (at least, if he wants to keep them as clients). This obligation is not served by hiring people who advertise their connection to a murderous foreign regime and a domestic group known to victimize people simply for being of the race or religion of Fistful's clients.
5. No one is talking about oppressing, arresting or victimizing these goons and you aren't going to be able to twist it around to claim that they are. Or rather, if you claim that in not hiring them in the future they are being victimized, it would also be true that any other groups that Fistful didn't hire would similarly be victims.
You are quite simply off-base on this. If you want to talk freedom, talk about Fistful's right to spend money where he chooses.
Post by: Perd Hapley on November 10, 2006, 06:47:09 AM
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If you want to talk freedom, talk about Fistful's right to spend money where he chooses.
Well, there you go. Outstanding. Except it isn't my money. My company is hiring them, I'm just a go-between.
Post by: cordex on November 10, 2006, 12:23:58 PM
Allow me to submit another possible version:
"If you want to talk freedom, talk about Fistful's right to maximize shareholder value through judiciously executing his responsibilities by specifying minimum standards in both performance and customer service in the laborers who will be hired by a third party to fulfill the contractual obligations of said third party."
Better?
Post by: Perd Hapley on November 10, 2006, 12:31:34 PM
Post by: wingnutx on November 10, 2006, 12:36:35 PM
Post by: Perd Hapley on November 10, 2006, 01:40:45 PM
Post by: wingnutx on November 10, 2006, 02:23:04 PM
Post by: m1911owner on November 10, 2006, 03:11:18 PM
I just get tired of people acting like Israel is the 51st US state.
WHAT???!! Did Israel secede??!
Post by: Lee on November 10, 2006, 05:33:00 PM
You mean you haven't heard of the ongoing civil war...or... is that the war on terror...or insurgents...yeah that's what it is...wait...that's Iraq or Iran or one of those I-Rab countries....oh never mind. Whatever it is, it's making us safer from Bin Laden...carry on.
Post by: erik the bold on November 11, 2006, 08:09:10 AM
Post by: Perd Hapley on November 11, 2006, 08:12:39 AM
Post by: ...has left the building. on November 11, 2006, 12:21:30 PM
After all the moaning about skinheads, did it ever occur to anyone that they just might be mis-guided metalheads? "Ich Kampfe" (I Fight) is an album (CD) from a death-metal band named STURMFUHRER, on Elegy Records. While the band reeks of Naziism, maybe the kids just like the (cough) music....
Straight from the horse's...I mean jackass' mouth:
http://www.mourningtheancient.com/sturm.htm
Post by: Perd Hapley on November 11, 2006, 10:13:11 PM
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Tell us about your previous work in music. I understand you were involved with Incantation?
Yes as Vocalist/guitarist from '90 to '94, then I did some session vocals in '98!
Yes as Vocalist/guitarist from '90 to '94, then I did some session vocals in '98!
People like that put things in perspective. It has always annoyed me that insignificant twerps like John Lennon and Kurt Cobain are idolized even after death. But if a thug like Hitler still has fans, I guess it's not so bad.
Post by: ...has left the building. on November 12, 2006, 03:49:42 AM
Did you notice all his answers end with exclamation points!!
People like that put things in perspective. It has always annoyed me that insignificant twerps like John Lennon and Kurt Cobain are idolized even after death. But if a thug like Hitler still has fans, I guess it's not so bad.
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Tell us about your previous work in music. I understand you were involved with Incantation?
Yes as Vocalist/guitarist from '90 to '94, then I did some session vocals in '98!
Yes as Vocalist/guitarist from '90 to '94, then I did some session vocals in '98!
People like that put things in perspective. It has always annoyed me that insignificant twerps like John Lennon and Kurt Cobain are idolized even after death. But if a thug like Hitler still has fans, I guess it's not so bad.
haha! So true but still...so sad.