Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Sergeant Bob on October 25, 2015, 10:03:11 PM
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I'm looking to buy myself an AR platform from which to build an EBR for about $700 as a base price. I'm thinking $700 as a base price (from Gander Mountain, as they are local) as a starting point. I'd like a flat top, since my eyesight isn't all that good and I'd like to mount some optics. any recommendations? I'm thinking Bushmaster or Rock River or something similar.
Any suggestions or guidance?
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Palmetto State Armory is a good "budget" maker or spend a little more and get a Bravo Company Mfg gun. My recommendation is to go the second route, you get that little bit extra attention to detail that is nice.
There are tons of other makers of course but honestly those two are pretty good starting choices. Smith and Wesson also makes a nice rifle.
Wouldn't waste my time with a Bushmaster.
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Palmetto is a good project foundation.
Are you building because you want something odd/off the wall, or because you're trying to save a couple bucks? In all honesty I've found the current AR glut has made it so most common build goals can be met by factory-optioned offerings. You mentioned Rock River. They make a metric buttload of models in prices that give project builds a solid run for their money. As a bonus you get a warranted, fire-tested firearm. Other mfgs have similar fodder.
Brad
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And for Optics you need to contact LensandLasers.com. They've outsourced their customer service, but Bandara Paira really knows his stuff. Make sure to ask for him when you call. 1(877) 327.2519
=D =D
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I'm with Boomhauer- for a few hundred more you could have a BCM. I wouldn't touch a Bushmaster- they made pretty good rifles a decade ago, but have turned to crap since being bought out by cerebus/freedom group.
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Avoid Bushmaster, as has been advised. S&W, Palmetto State, Aero Precision, and some of Rock River would be my go to basic guns. BCM makes high quality guns as well, just at a higher price point.
You said you want an EBR. Other than optics, what do you want on it? Better stock, quad rail or key mod rail, upgraded trigger, sling, muzzle brake/flash hider, iron sights? Barrel length? The M4 is 14.5 inches long and a SBR which requires a NFA tax stamp. 16 inch is the minimum non-NFA length. Other common barrel lengths are 18 and 20 inches.
Optics will be your biggest add-on cost. Decide how you want to use your EBR to decide what family of optics to use. Short range, home defense will be well served with a red dot-type sight. Shooting/hunting at 100 to 400 yards is easy with low power fixed or variable scopes. Beyond 400 you will want more magnification, say 8x-10x. Unless you plan to do precision shooting, you probably won't need more than a 10x scope, which should get you to 800 yards.
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Has Bushmaster gone downhill? I have a standard Bushmaster rifle, and though it initially had a minor problem that required warranty service which Bushmaster cheerfully provided - paying postage both ways - it's been accurate and reliable for several thousand rounds now. (Everyone can make a mistake - the GOOD companies will stand behind their product and FIX their mistake. in my experience, I've found S&W, DSA, Kahr, and Bushmaster will do so; on the other hand, Colt did not.)
Other than Bushmaster, from what I've seen, the S&W guns work well and are a "name brand" that's reasonably priced - regular price at Cabela's for the M&P Sport is around $740, and Cabela's is normally among the higher priced retailers.
I'd tend to stay away from piston driven guns - long term durability is a question mark for most of them, and they all tend to have unique, proprietary components. Standard, "direct impingement" ARs have FAR better parts availability and interchangeability.
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If you like "old Bushmaster", you want https://www.windhamweaponry.com/ they're the "old Bushmaster" after Bushmaster name/company got sold to the Freedom Group/Cerberus venture capital or whatever.
And yes, there's zero need for a piston driven AR. They're all marketing hype, and the only one that is 100% durable is the HK 416 upper or whatever they're called, and I think it's a $2500+ unicorn to find one. The simple truth is that all the other "good ones", 99% of us never get to the round counts that would tell you it's going to have some abnormal wear somewhere in the carrier etc.
The S&W M&P is a good choice for a quality but budget AR. S&W doesn't make much of the rifle, more so as they assemble them, but those who've tracked down the parts subcontractors, they're all mid to upper level companies in respectability. Sportsman's and CDNN has been blowing them out at under $600 occasionally.
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Palmetto State Armory has complete rifle kits for $399 with Magpul furniture. They say all their uppers are fire tested. The reputation is that they are solid budget guns.
If you want a complete store bought rifle, I would try S&W or Windham. Rock River is excellent if you can find one at your price point. Rock River generally has good resale value down the road also.
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For optics, I do like AIMpoint. The long battery life is just hard to beat. I took my designated home defense rifle to the range last weekend to check zero. I had left it on and it was still doing fine.
And I would second using www.lensandlasers.com for optics.
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For optics, I do like AIMpoint. The long battery life is just hard to beat. I took my designated home defense rifle to the range last weekend to check zero. I had left it on and it was still doing fine.
And I would second using www.lensandlasers.com for optics.
Mine have been on a few years now. I need to remember to change the battery.... eventually.
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What about starting from an 80% lower? Sounds very interesting and simple enough, then again I always liked DIY projects. Having an entire collection of "made in my home by me" rifles stimulates my imagination :lol:
Is there any issues with collecting these?
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What about starting from an 80% lower? Sounds very interesting and simple enough, then again I always liked DIY projects. Having an entire collection of "made in my home by me" rifles stimulates my imagination :lol:
Is there any issues with collecting these?
With a jig and a Harbor Freight drill press? =D
Good luck, you can still butcher them very easily. If you have/operate a mill, and have machinist skills, it's not hard.
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Avoid Bushmaster, as has been advised. S&W, Palmetto State, Aero Precision, and some of Rock River would be my go to basic guns. BCM makes high quality guns as well, just at a higher price point.
You said you want an EBR. Other than optics, what do you want on it? Better stock, quad rail or key mod rail, upgraded trigger, sling, muzzle brake/flash hider, iron sights? Barrel length? The M4 is 14.5 inches long and a SBR which requires a NFA tax stamp. 16 inch is the minimum non-NFA length. Other common barrel lengths are 18 and 20 inches.
Optics will be your biggest add-on cost. Decide how you want to use your EBR to decide what family of optics to use. Short range, home defense will be well served with a red dot-type sight. Shooting/hunting at 100 to 400 yards is easy with low power fixed or variable scopes. Beyond 400 you will want more magnification, say 8x-10x. Unless you plan to do precision shooting, you probably won't need more than a 10x scope, which should get you to 800 yards.
Basically, I want something I can shoot right out of the box, save for optics. I wouldn't mind something with the standard AR front sight, as long as it doesn't interfere with an add on red dot or scope. I really would prefer something with stock sights to which I could add some optics, just in case the optics become non functional. I put a red dot on my Mini-14 and is is once again a hoot to shoot. As far as building a rifle, I just mean adding aftermarket parts, such as hand guards, picatinny rails, lights, lasers and such.
Does anyone know about the Ruger AR556? From what I've read, it will accept AR 15/M16 mags? It's right there at the $699 range (MSRP) that I'm looking for.
It's going to be a Christmas gift from my wife (don't tell her!!!!)
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Any front sight is going to be in the way of any optic that is 2x or lower. some don't mind the co-witness, but IMO, if you plan on using a red dot, then get a folding front sight or skip the front sight.
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From what I hear, Ruger is making good guns right now. I wouldn't have any problem with that rifle.
I friend bought a Bushmaster (pre-change) that had the flip up front sight on the gas block (not a rail). I think my Sabre Defense upper is like that. Some new rifles come with the sights one way or the other. If they don't, good metal flip up sights can be pricey. I prefer having iron sights if I can afford them.
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Any front sight is going to be in the way of any optic that is 2x or lower. some don't mind the co-witness, but IMO, if you plan on using a red dot, then get a folding front sight or skip the front sight.
Good info. I would like to have the option but will forego the front sight if necessary. Whatever I do, I would like to be able to use a red dot.
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I would add that good rails aren't cheap. If your sure you want a rail, you might want to just buy a rifle with one on it, rather than a base rifle and add one later.
I'd go with BCM for a good mid range value.
I'm also one that doesn't have an issue with a cool witnessed FSB. When using the dot I'm focused far enough out that the front sight all but disappears.
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How about DPMS as a start? They make what seems to be a decent "everyday" rifle at a very attractive $600 price. No experience with long-term durability if they're pressed hard.
Brad
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DPMS is a good rifle usually.
Unless you already have all the machines, tools, and talent, don't do an 80% receiver. Just go buy a complete rifle for your first one.
You can easily find a 16" carbine with rails, sights, and decent parts for $800 or less.
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How about DPMS as a start? They make what seems to be a decent "everyday" rifle at a very attractive $600 price. No experience with long-term durability if they're pressed hard.
Brad
IMO, if it is a problem, just look for a rifle with the permanently mounted folding front sight on the gas block. Then it isn't in the way.
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I'm also one that doesn't have an issue with a cool witnessed FSB. When using the dot I'm focused far enough out that the front sight all but disappears.
This, all my AR's have a FSB and when using my aimpoint micros or various scopes it is invisible to me.
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DPMS is a good rifle usually.
Unless you already have all the machines, tools, and talent, don't do an 80% receiver. Just go buy a complete rifle for your first one.
You can easily find a 16" carbine with rails, sights, and decent parts for $800 or less.
Yeah, I mispoke when I said "build". I just want a base rifle from which to hang a lot of aftermarket goodies. Thanks for the info!
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This, all my AR's have a FSB and when using my aimpoint micros or various scopes it is invisible to me.
Thanks magsnub! Good to know info!
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I bought a Rock River Arms about 8 years ago. It will outlast my greatgreatgrandchildren.
And there is a massive glut of AR's on the market right now. So you should be able to find a quality one for a good price.
I do need to get another upper for mine, simply because mine is very heavy (Aluminium handguards with rails, great for dissipating barrel heat, makes gun heavy.)
For pure put a big ol' smile on your face fun, Robert's S&W M&P 15-22 is a hoot. Magpul MBUS Gen II sights, and weighs all of 5 lbs. Steel targets are great fun.
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Here's a pretty good endorsement of BCM uppers.
https://youtu.be/eQYV96hHoGU
Have you thought about buying a bare lower, saving a bit on taxes since bare lowers can be found cheaply, and assembling your lower with a parts kit. I used a parts kit from PSA and it took less than 30 minutes. That included logging on to the computer, assembling the lower, unpacking and mounting my PSA upper, running a function check and then cleaning up. I'm pretty sure PSA has a "how to" video that I used. The parts kit also comes in little color coded baggies.
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I bought a Rock River Arms about 8 years ago. It will outlast my greatgreatgrandchildren.
And there is a massive glut of AR's on the market right now. So you should be able to find a quality one for a good price.
I do need to get another upper for mine, simply because mine is very heavy (Aluminium handguards with rails, great for dissipating barrel heat, makes gun heavy.)
For pure put a big ol' smile on your face fun, Robert's S&W M&P 15-22 is a hoot. Magpul MBUS Gen II sights, and weighs all of 5 lbs. Steel targets are great fun.
This combination will produce an extremely light upper:
http://www.ar15performance.com/inc/sdetail/11562/20639 (http://www.ar15performance.com/inc/sdetail/11562/20639)
http://www.ar15performance.com/inc/sdetail/2121/29944 (http://www.ar15performance.com/inc/sdetail/2121/29944)
http://www.smokecomposites.com/#!hand-guards/cgeo (http://www.smokecomposites.com/#!hand-guards/cgeo)
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I find assembling lowers to be kind of fun, but I don't get in a hurry with it. Lots of youtube how-to videos. You can do it pretty cheap these days as well. However, I would warn you that it tends to cause your AR's to multiply. I think they sell pregnant stripped lowers so they can supply your more accessories.
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I find to assembling lowers to be kind of fun, but I don't get in a hurry with it. Lots of youtube how-to videos. You can do it pretty cheap these days as well. However, I would warn you that it tends to cause your AR's to multiply. I think they sell pregnant stripped lowers so they can supply your more accessories.
You have to keep each lower isolated. Only let them mingle when they are complete.
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You have to keep each lower isolated. Only let them mingle when they are complete.
Doesn't really help. My complete rifles seem to spit out stripped lowers of left in a safe alone more than a couple months.
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How ARs multiply:
First you buy a complete AR, then you put in a better trigger, then find a new stock and grip you like better, then realize most factory built rifles are overgassed so you buy a new spring, H2 buffer, and M16 carrier. Then you want a new upper for longer range, then you realize if you just get another lower and few small parts you can assemble another whole rifle, but of course, this one has the grip, stock, and trigger you didn't like before, so you replace those too ...
It doesn't stop.
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Does anyone have any favorite sites for the procurement of aftermarket goodies (ie, lights, forends, lasers etc?) for your AR? That's the "building an AR" I erroneously referred to in my original post.
Thanks all for your input so far!
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Does anyone have any favorite sites for the procurement of aftermarket goodies (ie, lights, forends, lasers etc?) for your AR? That's the "building an AR" I erroneously referred to in my original post.
Thanks all for your input so far!
Bravo Company for most stuff for me. Brownell's, Midway USA, and Primary Arms are also on my go to list.
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Does anyone have any favorite sites for the procurement of aftermarket goodies (ie, lights, forends, lasers etc?) for your AR? That's the "building an AR" I erroneously referred to in my original post.
Thanks all for your input so far!
Primary Arms is probably my goto website. They are about 40 miles away in Pearland, TX so it is easy for me to get there and save shipping or avoid transfer fees for the cheap stripped lowers. They are actually selling BCM complete lowers right now.
I agree that you really can't go wrong with the BCM. I have one and it is a solid rifle. I acquired a Daniel Defense upper a year or so ago that I think is good and light weight.
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Does anyone have any favorite sites for the procurement of aftermarket goodies (ie, lights, forends, lasers etc?) for your AR? That's the "building an AR" I erroneously referred to in my original post.
Thanks all for your input so far!
Primary Arms is my goto. Followed by BCM, Midway, and PSA if something is on sale.
Optics is LensandLasers, or Primary Arms. Those two cover just about every brand I like. SWFA if I want a super sniper.
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Thanks guys! Anyone know about Amazon's offerings? Yes, they do carry some AR accesories!
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I've bought plenty of AR and AK stuff through Amazon. The last order was a front sight adjustment tool for AK's along with Magpul BUIS for an AR and some lube.
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I've bought plenty of AR and AK stuff through Amazon. The last order was a front sight adjustment tool for AK's along with Magpul BUIS for an AR and some lube.
http://www.amazon.com/Gun-Oil-H2O-8-Ounces-Bottle/dp/B002UXRNWI/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1446421898&sr=8-2&keywords=Gun+oil
>:D
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Well, it's decided. Tomorrow, I'm going to Cabela's to pick up a DPMS Oracle AR 15 Flat Top AR. $599!. Will send an after action report in a couple days. Have 12 MagPul mags on the way in anticipation of my AR purchase! I don't F*ck around when I F*ck around!
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Well, it's decided. Tomorrow, I'm going to Cabela's to pick up a DPMS Oracle AR 15 Flat Top AR. $599!. Will send an after action report in a couple days. Have 12 MagPul mags on the way in anticipation of my AR purchase! I don't F*ck around when I F*ck around!
Congratulations. It's amazing how cheap they've gotten. I built my first AR in 2000 for right around $700, which I thought was outstanding. Adjusted for inflation I spent $967 building it with 2015 dollars. That was with a stripped lower and a bunch of mail order parts and a used A2 HBAR upper (long since replaced) I picked up from the classifieds on arfcom. Being solidly middle of the ban, I spent $50 on two thoroughly used 30 round mags that had seen better days.
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Well, went to Cabelas today and my NICS came back (not denied), but "on hold". I don't know wtf the problem is but, am hoping it will come back "approved" in a couple days or so. My record is spotless so I have no idea where TF this is coming from. Anyway, if NICS doesn't come back with a reason by the 10th (accounting for the weekend) the rifle is mine. Gawd I hate the govt and all their intrusive BS!!!! My record is spotless and I can see no reason for this BS!!!!!
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these holds, and a lot of denials, are the result of other folks with the same name as yours, that have been naughty in the past.
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these holds, and a lot of denials, are the result of other folks with the same name as yours, that have been naughty in the past.
Thanks, that's what I'm hoping. I have heard of a few with the same name as me around the country. One was a taxi driver in Minneapolis who put a million miles on his cab. In any case, if I hear nothing before Tuesday the rifle is mine.
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Update! I got the OK from NICS to purchase my AR. Done! It's a DPMS Oracle flat top which I purchased for $574 (after $25 off for signing up for a Cabela's credit card). I'll get off a few rounds out the back door but won't be able to really range test it till spring. I don't use my range during deer season. I can sight it in at short distance only.
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Update! I got the OK from NICS to purchase my AR. Done! It's a DPMS Oracle flat top which I purchased for $574 (after $25 off for signing up for a Cabela's credit card). I'll get off a few rounds out the back door but won't be able to really range test it till spring. I don't use my range during deer season. I can sight it in at short distance only.
[ar15]
If you were close enough, I would loan you my bump fire stock. =D
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Well that is good news. Glad to see you have your new toy. Everyone should have one.
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Well that is good news. Glad to see you have your new toy. Everyone should have one.
[ar15]
If you were close enough, I would loan you my bump fire stock. =D
Thanks fellas! I think I'd pass on the bump fire stock (thanks though). I go through ammo fast enough already!
As an aside, I figured since I now have an AR, I should sign up at ArfCom just for the abundance of knowledge there. Can't sign up with a gmail account! I think half the world is on gmail! F! them!
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Thanks fellas! I think I'd pass on the bump fire stock (thanks though). I go through ammo fast enough already!
As an aside, I figured since I now have an AR, I should sign up at ArfCom just for the abundance of knowledge there. Can't sign up with a gmail account! I think half the world is on gmail! F! them!
You're not missing anything. Lots of noise over there.
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You're not missing anything. Lots of noise over there.
Thanks Fly320's! good info!
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http://www.m4carbine.net/
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http://www.m4carbine.net/
That is the winner.
AR15.com has become way too big, busy, and money-oriented to be useful for most people. The search function is restricted unless you are a member.
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Palmetto State Armory has complete rifle kits for $399 with Magpul furniture. They say all their uppers are fire tested. The reputation is that they are solid budget guns.
If you want a complete store bought rifle, I would try S&W or Windham. Rock River is excellent if you can find one at your price point. Rock River generally has good resale value down the road also.
My EBR lower/LPK with Magpul furniture came from Palmetto State, late 2012. Aside from a mistake I made with a couple of springs, necessitating removal and replacement of both, it went together fine.
Complete Yankee Hill Manufacturing upper (16" diamond-fluted barrel, which is quite aesthetically pleasing, flat-top currently mounted with pop-up sights - I plan to put a red-dot on there... hey, I can afford to now!) purchased from Midway literally immediately after the shooting at Newtown. I'm pretty sure my order was filled with the very last of that particular style YHM upper at the time, and just before prices went up. It was still pretty pricy, honestly - I think I've actually got a thousand into the whole rifle as-is, without any optics. That does include the mags I bought when we had that APS run, around that time.
Need to get out and shoot it one of these days. I've still never actually fired it.
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I think it was right around one of Obama's elections, I got a YHM lower. Later, I got a YHM complete upper to go with it. I have shot it, but not much. The quad rail they use is nice, but I need to get some of the slim rubber rail covers.
YHM makes good all metal iron flip up sights.
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That is the winner.
AR15.com has become way too big, busy, and money-oriented to be useful for most people. The search function is restricted unless you are a member.
Any big site has crap searching... Just use Google with the syntax: ar15 triggers site:ar15.com
Or just go to: https://www.google.com/advanced_search
The problem is that discussion boards, like this one are just big databases of posts and information, and every page load is a query that gets rendered as a .html website page... and a search that's too broad has to crawl every record in the database one by one and it kills server performance, just a few searches have the impact of a few hundred, or even a few thousand users worth of load for just normal posting and reading when it's indexed.
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Thanks Fly320's! good info!
That is the winner.
AR15.com has become way too big, busy, and money-oriented to be useful for most people. The search function is restricted unless you are a member.
I"m set on M4.net! thanks!