Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: MillCreek on June 17, 2016, 02:22:24 PM
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http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/19/business/dealbook/an-expensive-law-degree-and-no-place-to-use-it.html
How are you going to pay off tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars in college debt without a high-paying job as a lawyer?
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What? We've achieved Peak Shylock? I didn't think that was possible.
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(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F89pDr2F.jpg&hash=626bf195bda61e6b5144db4563c28233e7bd0c2c)
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I'm not seeing a problem here.
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But can't you use that knowledge in other ways independently from a private practice?
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http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/19/business/dealbook/an-expensive-law-degree-and-no-place-to-use-it.html
How are you going to pay off tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars in college debt without a high-paying job as a lawyer?
sex work?
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http://i.imgur.com/89pDr2F.jpg
Be careful what you wish for... If they can't find work with established firms, out of desperation they will:
- Apply the "Legal Mindset" into whatever other fields or careers they eventually find themselves in.
- Start "Debt Collection Agencies". Probably by buying out the worst/oldest/unverified "paper" out there and staffing a call center full of bums and ex-convicts.
- Become professional lawsuit chasers with themselves as the plaintiff. Slipping on sidewalks etc.
- Run for political office.
:P
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Unemployed lawyers means a rise in crime rate
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Be careful what you wish for... If they can't find work with established firms, out of desperation they will:
- Apply the "Legal Mindset" into whatever other fields or careers they eventually find themselves in.
- Start "Debt Collection Agencies". Probably by buying out the worst/oldest/unverified "paper" out there and staffing a call center full of bums and ex-convicts.
- Become professional lawsuit chasers with themselves as the plaintiff. Slipping on sidewalks etc.
- Run for political office.
:P
- Find a drug with an unusual side effect which affected more than a dozen people and start a class action suit against the Mfrs. Advertise on inexpensive nighttime TV for more potential victims. Line up compliant Drs. who will swear to the most horrible effects. Make sure the side effect blurbs have a misplaced or missing comma so that claimants can say they were improperly advised as to those side effects.
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Problem is that too many people go into law school thinking they get to come out of the other side and walk into a six figure income. So a lot max out the loans, live a kife of luxury, buying cars, and making choices thinking that money won't be an issue. Reality is that rarely happened back in the 90s when I graduated, and it happens even less now. A lot of grunt work the big firms used to pay associates to do has been eliminated by technology. Book research that took hours or days can be done by computer in hours. Basic document drafting...wills, power of attorney, etc., is now a Word document that the printer spits ouf in 15 minutes. The bread and butter of small local firms used to on be wills, estates, real estate transactions, and thanks to online resources, most people can do simple law work on their own.
Yes, you can still make a good living as a lawyer. May not get rich, but you can do alright.
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http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2016/06/17/get_ready_for_more_stories_about_jobless_law_school_graduates.html?google_editors_picks=true
A followup article in Slate.
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The information here and elsewhere about how college graduates come out of college with some sort of degree, big debt and expecting six figured employment while resting with their feet up on the desk is getting rather endemic. That's why whenever I talk to young people who are contemplating college I tell 'em to go to trade school and learn how to do some dirty work that will always be around like turd hurding, tin knocking, electrical, etc etc. I told my kids and grandkids to learn a trade and thumb their noses at college. They are all doing quite well as printers, odd jobbers/pickin'/internet sales, journeyman insulator/tin knocker/welder and the 2nd youngest just got to work learning plumbing. The best part is they earned money while they learned rather than got in debt and loafing at a school for 4 or 6 years.
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. . . A lot of grunt work the big firms used to pay associates to do has been eliminated by technology . . .
You mean an internet connection to an office staffed with Indian law students working for 100 rupees an hour in Bombay?
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You mean an internet connection to an office staffed with Indian law students working for 100 rupees an hour in Bombay?
This just gave me a terrible thought. What if our barely functional legal code is actually outsourced to be written by the same companies who write so much barely functional source code?
Then I realized that the special interests who buy our laws would never offshore such an important job. Too risky, and it would be false economy to spend so much money lobbying for sub-par exceptions and special treatment.
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:Ned holds out his hat and smiles at his cardboard sign:
Legal Evaluations and Professional Insight; $450 an hour.
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A lot of grunt work the big firms used to pay associates to do has been eliminated by technology.
Woohoo! I remember how one of my first lawfirm tasks was to do manual deposition indexing (with a highlighter and typing indexes into an Excel spreadsheet) and preparing exhibits out of boxes and boxes of paper discovery documents. This was as the local defense firm for the Dalkon Shield litigation.
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We used to have comments about Union workers whose job could be replaced by robots. What comments do we have for lawyers whose job is done by a computer?
The answer is obvious. Make it illegal for computers to do legal work.
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On Isle Royale, our least visited National Park, forest fire suppression has caused so much overgrowth that the tick population has exploded.
The moose on Isle Royale are often not very healthy due to the hundreds of thousands of the parasites feeding off each moose.
A healthy moose can survive the onslaught of typical tick populations but with the overabundance of ticks even healthy moose will die off in the winter due to being so weakened all spring, summer and fall by the relentlessness of the parasites.
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We used to have comments about Union workers whose job could be replaced by robots. What comments do we have for lawyers whose job is done by a computer?
The answer is obvious. Make it illegal for computers to do legal work.
I guess I should have said that technology has made grunt work so easy that (a) firms don't waste money paying associates to do it (like research and memo writing on issues of law) and (b) a lot of basic law work is now available as a form so people can do it pro see instead of paying an attorney to do it.
Computers don't do the work...yet.
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On Isle Royale, our least visited National Park, forest fire suppression has caused so much overgrowth that the tick population has exploded.
The moose on Isle Royale are often not very healthy due to the hundreds of thousands of the parasites feeding off each moose.
A healthy moose can survive the onslaught of typical tick populations but with the overabundance of ticks even healthy moose will die off in the winter due to being so weakened all spring, summer and fall by the relentlessness of the parasites.
So we should allow periodic natural lawyer fires to happen, to weed out the weak.
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So we should allow periodic natural lawyer fires to happen, to week out the weak.
Managed hunts to cull the weak and/or scrofulous. Selling tag draws could probably seriously reduce the national debt.
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Lawyers are like cops, we bitch and moan about them until we really need one :P
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Lawyers are like cops, we bitch and moan about them until we really need one :P
Then we bitch and moan afterward.
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Lawyers are like cops, we bitch and moan about them until we really need one :P
The need for lawyers exist primarily because of all the damn lawyers.
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The need for lawyers exist primarily because of all the damn lawyers.
Then we bitch and moan afterward.
I can assure you no one has a better appreciation for how terrible lawyers can be than those that have to interact with them daily... other lawyers. :P
But hey, isn't this particular forum all about those 4% exceptional in general?
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But hey, isn't this particular forum all about those 4% exceptional in general?
Exceptional in which direction?
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Managed hunts to cull the weak and/or scrofulous. Selling tag draws could probably seriously reduce the national debt.
Managed hunts for ticks? Those must be some ticks.
With ticks like that, I'd hate to see the lawyers.
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Talked to a friend from law school last night. He's a lawyer out in Arizona. He said that he attended a meeting with the local bar on the issue, as well as some other issues. The problems go beyond poor graduates with enormous debt. The number of applicants to law schools around the nation have fallen. Some schools have adjusted and reduced class size. Others just reduced admission standards so that they can keep the dollars flowing in. This has resulted in lower quality graduates. This led to falling Bar passing rates, which means grads with all of the debt but none of the license to practice law.
Now, add this. A lot of the same firms who aren't hiring as many associates are also not hiring interns. A lot of internships have dried up as money went other places. I swear to you I learned more about being a lawyer during my internship than I did in three years of law school. Without that experience, a lot of grads have plenty of academic knowledge and no real world knowledge.
The results...poorer quality graduates without any practical experience, with thousands of dollars in debt suddenly coming due, who are flooding into the market. Where do they end up? Criminal law, trying to get trial experience they can sell to a firm and as many billable hours as possible to make money. So they end up as prosecutors and defense attorneys, mucking up the criminal justice system which is already heading to Hades in a hand basket. You get prosecutors who charge the hell out of cases and push for plea bargains so they can get a high conviction rate, and defense lawyers who don't know what they're doing taking on a ton of cases so they can bill more, and pushing to plead out more cases.
Take away for us? Better find a good criminal defense lawyer now before you need one. As an armed citizen in the world these days, the prospects for needing one seem to be getting far more likely.
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Better find a good criminal defense lawyer now before you need one. As an armed citizen in the world these days, the prospects for needing one seem to be getting far more likely.
That strikes me as very good advice, Chris. Do you have any suggestions on how to best select one?
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That strikes me as very good advice, Chris. Do you have any suggestions on how to best select one?
If you have a state gun right's organization, I would call them and see if they have any attorneys that they recommend. I would get more than one name.
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If you have a state gun right's organization, I would call them and see if they have any attorneys that they recommend. I would get more than one name.
This is good advice. Also, you can check with most bar associations to see who is listed for criminal law in your area. Get the names and let your Google-fu go to work. Read about the cases he/she has handled. Has the attorney ever been sanctioned by the state bar for misconduct? Check court records for the attorney's name as a defendant...sometimes attorneys get sued for malpractice. A loss would be telling. What law school did the attorney attend? Did the attorney pass the bar the first try? If you use a lawyer for business work, or estate work, or divorce, ask who they would use for criminal defense. Attorneys know who the good lawyers are.
Ask for a meeting. Trust your instincts. As about firearms cases. When I was a prosecutor, I loved doing gun cases with defense lawyers who knew nothing about firearms. Especially the ones who would walk around with the gun in hand and point it at the jury. A lot of criminal defense lawyers lean towards the liberal side. An interview will let you know if your gun interests will be a problem. Biggest thing...if you meet a lawyer, and that lawyer doesn't understand why you're there and discussing the possibility of future need, forget it. That kind of lawyer is one who would push for a plea bargain.
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Thanks Chris and adively.
I do some work for a small-town lawyer who seems pretty competent and who isn't afraid to take things to trial, but I'll have to see what other options are out there.
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Rather like a doctor, mechanic, or any other professional whose opinion and expertise you are paying for; trust is a major issue. Your own best interest may run counter to their own economic/professional incentives. I do say be wary of anyone who is unable or unwilling to explain your choices and their appreciation/expectation of likely outcomes. While the cost may be less, your interests are generally best served by someone who is building a relationship for the long term rather than expecting a singular interaction. I think of it as the difference between an attorney and counselor at law. I've had a number of folks come in interested in a purchasing attorney for a real estate deal or a divorce; paperwork and income would be easy, but I've lost more than a fair amount of business from doing the client's best interest informational discussion on expense and time of immediate necessary repair and 'Ok, so where are you going to live and do you know these are the numbers for child support/spousal maintenance... has counseling been tried?'
A fair amount of established/competent legal work these days is dealing with the aftermath of 'the cheaper guy.' I'm sure that is a truism across many professions. Almost always more cost effective to have things done right the first time.