Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: RevDisk on October 06, 2017, 04:25:14 PM
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http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/05/politics/nra-bump-stock/index.html
Probably smartest move they could make. Throw bump stocks to the wolves to get 'assault rifles' and whatnot ignored.
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As I see it, with the current House, Senate, and POTUS, hell even SCOTUS... the NRA shouldn't have to "give up" anything. :mad:
My hope is that they are trying to get something in exchange. Something more important than bumpfire stocks.
My best guess is that they want to tie it to National CCW Reciprocity, especially since they mentioned that specifically at the end of the "official statement" from Dana Loesch. The NRA has had that as a high priority for some time now, as it's a way to get all the holdout no-issue, and stingy may-issue states on their knees in one fell swoop. Instead of having to fight battles in courts, or state by state in their various legislatures, or force CCW on the states who'll never approve it otherwise because they have perpetual liberal Democrat control.
I'm a bit "meh" on that myself, simply because I think that we're going to get there, or at least get to grudging shall-issue in all 50 states through the courts as it is. And if Nat. CCW Recip. passes, it'll still take years of lawsuits in Federal court against those states to force it's implementation, making the difference between the two approaches negligible.
It'll never happen, but what I'd like to see, is an effort to pass a bill making bumpfire stocks and reflex triggers as being the same as NFA machine guns. This would allow the supporting votes to paint any resistance from the Democrats or RINOs as ludicrous, since they'd be against:
- A special extra ATF application form.
- An additional $200 tax.
- A special background check "performed by the ATF".
- You have to send a letter notifying your local CLEO.
- A multi-month ATF waiting period.
And further, you could point out that doing it this way would ensure any other new devices that are invented after bumpfire stocks are properly checked and registered too. If the bumpfire stock is simply "banned", then you'd have the problem of a potentially infinite number of new devices that skirt the law being banned individually year after year...
Of course, to facilitate that, the law would also have to remove the Hughes Amendment '86 machine gun freeze.
It'll never happen of course, but that's probably because people with actual good ideas like this make poor politicians, and poor NRA lobbyists etc. :P
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Does anyone really think The Stupid Party(R) is going to try to get something in exchange? The eGOP specializes in spelunking.
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It'll never happen, but what I'd like to see, is an effort to pass a bill making bumpfire stocks and reflex triggers as being the same as NFA machine guns. This would allow the supporting votes to paint any resistance from the Democrats or RINOs as ludicrous, since they'd be against:
- A special extra ATF application form.
- An additional $200 tax.
- A special background check "performed by the ATF".
- You have to send a letter notifying your local CLEO.
- A multi-month ATF waiting period.
But conservatives don't get to "paint" anything. The painting will be done by the establishment press, and they'll make it all about Republicans/Trump/NRA trying to protect bump stocks, refusing to protect our communities, TRUMP HATES GAYZ, WHITE SUPREMAZY, HANDMAIDZ TALE!!!
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Does anyone really think The Stupid Party(R) is going to try to get something in exchange? The eGOP specializes in spelunking.
THIS
I'm over "compromise ". They only give up and never get. The NRA can FOAD
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If a semi-auto with a bump fire stock is equivalent to a machine gun, then any semi auto that can be fired WITHOUT a bump fire device (pretty much all of them) is also equivalent to a machine gun. Guess we'll have to be happy with Fudd guns.
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Screw banning anything.
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Interesting Take from TTAG http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2017/10/johannes-paulsen/nras-position-bump-fire-stocks-genius/ (http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2017/10/johannes-paulsen/nras-position-bump-fire-stocks-genius/)
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Interesting Take from TTAG http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2017/10/johannes-paulsen/nras-position-bump-fire-stocks-genius/ (http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2017/10/johannes-paulsen/nras-position-bump-fire-stocks-genius/)
Interesting, indeed ... an elegantly simple yet brutally effective political move. It deflects the issue from Senate/Congress back to the BATFE, effectively stopping the hysteria-driven political witch hunt and turning it into a technical exercise. While some of the BATFE's past "determinations" are head-scratchers the determination in this case has been made on multiple times with the paper trail to support it.
The shift in venue significantly undermines the anti-gun political agenda and turns it into a technical exercise. It also gives the NRA political brownie points with the left because the "NRA did something". I think it's a brilliant strategy.
Brad
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Interesting, indeed ... an elegantly simple yet brutally effective political move. It deflects the issue from Senate/Congress back to the BATFE, effectively stopping the hysteria-driven political witch hunt and turning it into a technical exercise. While some of the BATFE's past "determinations" are head-scratchers the determination in this case has been made on multiple times with the paper trail to support it.
The shift in venue significantly undermines the anti-gun political agenda and turns it into a technical exercise. It also gives the NRA political brownie points with the left because the "NRA did something". I think it's a brilliant strategy.
Brad
Bah. The NRA still is against semi-auto and high capacity magazine bans (well, maybe for now anyway), registration, universal background checks, blah, blah, blah. The left will still portray them as Satan, no brownie points will be given. It will cost the NRA a whole bunch of members though, I guess that will give the left something to chuckle at.
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Interesting, indeed ... an elegantly simple yet brutally effective political move. It deflects the issue from Senate/Congress back to the BATFE, effectively stopping the hysteria-driven political witch hunt and turning it into a technical exercise. While some of the BATFE's past "determinations" are head-scratchers the determination in this case has been made on multiple times with the paper trail to support it.
The shift in venue significantly undermines the anti-gun political agenda and turns it into a technical exercise. It also gives the NRA political brownie points with the left because the "NRA did something". I think it's a brilliant strategy.
Brad
I'd love to think the NRA had that much Machiavellian sense to them. If they did, we'd be debating getting Destructive Devices off the NFA rather than bitching the HPA got shelved. Or if they were that devious on our behalf, they'd be doing what I was harping on above, working with the GOP to draft a bill making bumpstocks NFA, and using that as a Trojan Horse to undo the Hughes Amendment. [ar15]
I think a few people (with the keys to the mass com accounts) at the NRA saw bumpstocks were becoming a major talking point and were at issue in the mass shooting. They knew that any serious shooter, even those dedicated to un-PC tactical stuff consider them a gimmicky toy only really useful for doing mag dumps out on BLM land etc. And that they could get out ahead of the "NRA does nothing!" narrative. (Which is what I pay them to do when there's a mass shooting. Do as little as friggin possible, then push to roll back more gun control when the furor dies down...)
They figured 1% of the membership would be pissed at them, and it would blow over.
No major conspiracy, Hanlon's Razor is in full effect here. Just incompetence.
Bah. The NRA still is against semi-auto and high capacity magazine bans (well, maybe for now anyway), registration, universal background checks, blah, blah, blah. The left will still portray them as Satan, no brownie points will be given. It will cost the NRA a whole bunch of members though, I guess that will give the left something to chuckle at.
Exactly. It was stupid for that simple reason. The Left never turns around and says: "Thanks to the Right for being nice." Same for antis. There's no point in doing it. It gains you nothing.
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Exactly. It was stupid for that simple reason. The Left never turns around and says: "Thanks to the Right for being nice." Same for antis. There's no point in doing it. It gains you nothing.
Word. To me, another rason why we got Trump. Not that anything has changed, but everyone not far left is sick of compromising and getting dissed and stepped on for it. Refer to the gun rights pie.
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TTAG:
Of course, my argument falls apart if you believe that bump fire stocks can and should be defended substantively, and that this position can either prevail on its own, or lead to a future win. I don’t see that, but you can try to convince me in the comments — have at it.
OK, here ya go. This all goes back to the NFA, which came thiiisss close to being declared unconstitutional by extension from the "sawed-off-shotguns" issue simply because of the death of the remaining plaintiff, namely Miller.
The original drafters of the NFA knew darned well they were on shaky constitutional grounds with a direct effort against the Second Amendment, so clearly and succinctly written, so they wrote it in terms of a tax measure, hence the $200 tax stamp, call it about $2300 in today's dollars. This, ultimately, resulted in what we call the BATF today... and note the "F" part for Firearms should not be in there anyway.
The NRA's "deferral" to the BATF merely confirms the legitimacy of that "F" in that "Bureau," or whatever it is today.
I am in agreement with others that despite the supposed cleverness demonstrated by the NRA, it simply shows that the NRA is not willing to stand up for fundamental constitutional principles, but merely wants to deflect attention from the real issue of erosion of a fundamental civil right by bureacratic nonsense. Think of a shoelace as a machinegun and the waffling over stocks on a particular model of pistol. And that a device over 50 caliber is a destructive device except for 12 gauge shotguns and the .50 BMG rifles.... whose bullets are actually .510-.512 inches in diameter.
Then think about classification of your belt loop or your jeans pocket as a machinegun.
No. While perhaps politically expedient, the NRA's position on bump firing "stocks" (or jeans pockets) is fundamentally flawed in terms of that particular civil right.
Terry, 230RN
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I agree with 230RN.
Sure, it might seem to be the immediate “smart” thing to do, and maybe we can trade something stupid for something good, but I personally am through with compromising on the gun issue - even for the fringe.
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This all goes back to the NFA, which came thiiisss close to being declared unconstitutional by extension from the "sawed-off-shotguns" issue simply because of the death of the remaining plaintiff, namely Miller.
Unfortunately, that isn't the case. Miller didn't almost win. The judge handling his case was an FDR loving gun hater, Ragon, who wanted to destroy the Second Amendment by getting it gutted by the Supreme Court. Miller originally tried to plead guilty, but the judge refused to accept the guilty plea. The crafty judge declared the NFA was a violation of the second and got the case thrown up the Supremes, who voted 9-0 that the NFA was constitutional. Just like the Ragon knew they would. It is a good thing Miller didn't show up, or the dicta would have probably been a lot more damning to the Second Amendment than it already was.
This article has a summary of this wretched case:
http://www.law.nyu.edu/sites/default/files/ECM_PRO_060964.pdf
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I don't see it as a "compromise". I see it as heading off any nasty legislation at the pass. I saw WLP on Face the Nation (or was it Meet the Press) where he said repeatedly "Have the ATF look at bumpstocks". Which the ATF can only (if they are honest) as a legal device. Or you can use a rubber band or your belt loop.
If Feinstein, et al. try to move legislation, the NRA can say "Hey, how about letting the ATF do their job first." If nothing else it buys time, and time defuses the "DO SOMETHING NOW !!!" impulses. Again, 6 months or a year from now, hopefully we be reading "No action on gun control since Las Vegas" stories...