Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: MillCreek on December 18, 2017, 12:50:58 PM
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https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/12/18/571654675/amtrak-train-derails-on-overpass-in-washington-causing-multiple-fatalities?utm_medium=RSS&utm_campaign=news
http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/article190312794.html
Washington state just cut the ribbon on a new stretch of train tracks designed to alleviate rail congestion in the Tacoma area. On the very first trip from Tacoma to Portland, the train derailed on a bridge over I-5 near JBLM with at least two cars falling onto the freeway and has completely blocked southbound I-5. Multiple fatalities (number unknown) reported on the train so far.
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I wonder how fast it was going? Isn't it supposed to be a "high speed"* rail line?
Bob
*knowing US high speed is nothing like high speed in other countries.
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First off, condolences to the families of the dead.
If high speed rail, I'll be interested to see what the investigation finds and if there were, it being new, any construction defects. I'll assume WA built for similar reasons to why CA is building theirs. I just saw CA is already coming in at way over the original estimates for being way over budget. I can't help but think that might end up causing some construction shortcuts that lead to something similar on that train's first runs.
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On-scene private social media feeds seem to indicate the train struck a vehicle. One report says a truck, but not what kind.
Brad
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The photos on NPR show that the bridge is old construction. I wonder how old the tracks are?
If this was the inaugural run, did they not do any proving runs?
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Can you imagine the mess if that had been a freight train with a bunch of tank cars carrying hazardous chemicals and fuels?
Not to discount the fatalities, but the folks in that area may have dodged a large caliber bullet with that one. That corridor is pretty heavily populated now, unlike thirty years ago.
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. . . On the very first trip from Tacoma to Portland, the train derailed . . .
Disaster on the very first trip?
Don't tell me the train was built in a Harland and Wolff facility . . .
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On-scene private social media feeds seem to indicate the train struck a vehicle. One report says a truck, but not what kind.
Brad
There were definitely vehicles hit by the train after it jumped the tracks, including IIRC at least 1 semi-truck. Heard some rumors the train an "obstruction" on the tracks, but nothing specifying what that obstruction was.
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Disaster on the very first trip?
Don't tell me the train was built in a Harland and Wolff facility . . .
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2017/12/hiding-something-antifa-website-deletes-article-sabotaging-train-tracks-concrete-washington-state-derailment/
There's rumors that Antifa might have done it, placing an obstruction. Why, I don't know. Newsweek is saying its false.
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It's starting to sound to me like the conductor took a curve a bit too fast. From what the news has been saying, the track goes from an ~80 mph straightway into a 30mph turn just before the bridge, and there's no active Positive Train Control system on that track.
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Unlikely an object on the track. The locomotive and the first two or three cars stayed on the track -- it was the tail end of the train that got derailed.
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That was the back engine and car or two still more or less on the track. Front engine was off the track if not on the road.
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In the local media, some of the rail transportation experts are saying that preliminary indications are the train took the curve too fast. That curve is marked at 30 MPH, and the train was going almost 80 MPH before arriving at that curve.
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In the local media, some of the rail transportation experts are saying that preliminary indications are the train took the curve too fast. That curve is marked at 30 MPH, and the train was going almost 80 MPH before arriving at that curve.
NTSB spokesman said the same thing.
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Is this the NRA's fault or does Trump get the blame?
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Is this the NRA's fault or does Trump get the blame?
Why not both?
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It may not be NRA's fault, but it's a perfect example of why we need assault weapon control.
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"There's rumors that Antifa might have done it, placing an obstruction. Why, I don't know."
Why?
Because fighting fascism, of course!
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It's starting to sound to me like the conductor took a curve a bit too fast. From what the news has been saying, the track goes from an ~80 mph straightway into a 30mph turn just before the bridge, and there's no active Positive Train Control system on that track.
It turns out there IS Positive Train Control on that route -- it was installed as part of the upgrades to the route. But ... it wasn't in use, they were still "testing" it. Given all the recent train crashes and the federal mandate for PTC, wouldn't you think they would have done the testing before they opened the route and put it into regular service? I think a couple of people need to lose their jobs over this.
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/curve-where-amtrak-train-derailed-in-washington-has-speed-limit-of-30-mph/
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It turns out there IS Positive Train Control on that route -- it was installed as part of the upgrades to the route. But ... it wasn't in use, they were still "testing" it. Given all the recent train crashes and the federal mandate for PTC, wouldn't you think they would have done the testing before they opened the route and put it into regular service? I think a couple of people need to lose their jobs over this.
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/curve-where-amtrak-train-derailed-in-washington-has-speed-limit-of-30-mph/
You never heard of beta testers? [tinfoil]
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It turns out there IS Positive Train Control on that route -- it was installed as part of the upgrades to the route. But ... it wasn't in use, they were still "testing" it. Given all the recent train crashes and the federal mandate for PTC, wouldn't you think they would have done the testing before they opened the route and put it into regular service? I think a couple of people need to lose their jobs over this.
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/curve-where-amtrak-train-derailed-in-washington-has-speed-limit-of-30-mph/
Indeed. This is a bit like releasing a car today with the airbags disconnected.
And really, you have like 2 controls on a train. How hard is it to remember to slow down for these curves?
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The latest local scuttlebutt is that the NTSB is investigating if the train engineers were 'distracted', which is apparently a code word for someone texting or looking at a smartphone while operating the vehicle.
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The latest local scuttlebutt is that the NTSB is investigating if the train engineers were 'distracted', which is apparently a code word for someone texting or looking at a smartphone while operating the vehicle.
Probably were. That has to be a boring job.
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Okay, given GPS technology and some version of Google Maps for train tracks, why doesn't excessive in the wrong area not only alert the engineer, but the central monitoring people who might be in contact with the train engineer? Hell, make the engineers put an app on their phones that will interrupt anything they are doing.
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Probably were. That has to be a boring job.
Talking from experience? :police: :laugh:
ETA: I also caught the first part of the press conference with Amtrac's president. He said that they were "on track" to get the PTC system deployed in that area before the federal deadline.
Probably wasn't the best turn of phrase he could have used...
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I know the freight engineers have to hit an alarm button every minute I think to prove they are awake. Boring, until your train flys that is. Seems to be a prime candidate for automation.
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Talking from experience? :police: :laugh:
ETA: I also caught the first part of the press conference with Amtrac's president. He said that they were "on track" to get the PTC system deployed in that area before the federal deadline.
Probably wasn't the best turn of phrase he could have used...
The original deadline was 2015. It was extended to the end of 2018 ... and is likely to be extended again.
The question is -- this was a BRAND NEW line. Why the [bleep] would they build a NEW line -- for gazillions of dollars -- and not have the Positive Train Control working when the line went live? The trains have it -- it gets used on other parts of the route. They jst didn't connect all the dots on the new route. This was sheer idiocy.
I read an article that cited a statement by someone, I think with the NTSB, after a train crash in 2016 predicting that if they didn't get PTC implemented, "we'll be having this discussion again after the next fatality" (or something like that). as Bugs Bunny use to say, "Truer woids was nevah spoken."
The same article mentioned that this train had two engineers on board, where normally there would ony be one. I wonder if they put a brick on the deadman's switch and were playing cards -- or looking at porn.
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I read that same statement about having the discussion after the next fatality.
I wonder if the trainmen thought the system was live anyhow and trusted it.
I remember I used to love standing by the front windows of the elevated trains (the "el") to and from school. Just to watch the world go by.
There was one sudden turn somewhere in Brooklyn where I started to get pretty anxious as we approached that lefthand curve at a pretty high speed. When we hit it, the damned car rocked so hard I figured the left wheels went off the tracks.
I could hear the cars behind "my" first car squealing after the car hit the straightaway again. It happened again during my four years of HS, so there must have been one hotshot driver bent on suicide who drove that particular schedule. Took the subway all the time instead of the "el" after that second one. Got some homework done with nothing to see just roaring through those dark tunnels.
Jes' some personal color for what it's worth, probably nuthin'.
I guess the death toll in Washington went down to three. All appropriate sympathy to all those affected.
Terry
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As I've been reading more and seeing more photos, I realize that my understanding of the accident was backwards. I saw a photo with a locomotive on the tracks and I assumed (silly me) that the locomotive had made the turn and the trailing cars hadn't. Turns out this train had a locomotive at each end. That's what threw me -- Amtrak runs through my area, and they never have dual locomotives. In the case of the train in Tacoma, apparently the locomotive that stayed on the tracks was the "caboose" -- the locomotive at the front went off the tracks.
Looking at some aerial views of that curve, it's pretty obvious that a train couldn't take that at 80 MPH.
Google Maps has added a callout for the location of the derailment. It's just west of Joint Base Lewis-McChord, at 47.0675259,-122.6860813
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Talking from experience? :police: :laugh:
Yes. Flying is boring. Once we get above 10,000 feet, there isn’t much to do.
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Yes. Flying is boring. Once we get above 10,000 feet, there isn’t much to do.
One would think that, the air being thinner up there, you'd have to flap harder.... >:D [tinfoil] [popcorn] :angel:
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The question is -- this was a BRAND NEW line. Why the [bleep] would they build a NEW line --
I think it was a new route, not actual new tracks.