Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: zahc on March 22, 2018, 09:23:31 PM
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http://www.stevenrhine.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/YCL1236G-Brochure.pdf
I scored one of these lathes for free, but I have to get it in my garage somehow. It's 1250 pounds. I live in a subdivision with an attached garage. My resources are a minivan with a hitch. Since the machine is free I don't mind going out and buying stuff to move it, but I'm not sure what to get. I can get a 2-ton engine hoist but I don't know if an engine hoist is the right tool.
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I think I would be into a couple of heavy four wheeled furniture dollies for that. Or, similar profile and weight to a good upright piano, pay the piano moving man. I have been part of the crew moving 10k lb. lathes when I was eight years old, still have my fingers amazingly since I was the steel roller bar shuffler. Later in life(after moving that effing piano several times) best money l ever spent was paying the safe guy to deliver and move in my gun safe.
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Engine hoist and rented trailer.
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I'm definitely down with paying somebody to move it if they know how to move that type of thing. By the time I rent a U-haul trailer and buy an engine hoist or whatever, I'll be in it for $300-$400 anyway. I will start googling movers.
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I'm definitely down with paying somebody to move it if they know how to move that type of thing. By the time I rent a U-haul trailer and buy an engine hoist or whatever, I'll be in it for $300-$400 anyway. I will start googling movers.
Good call. But don't Google "movers" -- Google "riggers."
I am envious beyond belief. I could do a lot with one of those -- including brake drums and rotors for my Jeeps.
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Google "riggers."
Dude, they only get to call each other that. The rest of them are supposed to call them people of binding.
As for how to move a lathe, well, here's a mill table being moved:
(https://www.bikeforums.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=596403&d=1516576524)
(With that rear rack, I'm not sure why he made a separate trip for the head. Pretty sure that's 1.5" structural steel tubing it's made of.)
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Cool picture bro.
1250 lbs not really rigger territory, more like 12 pack of beer and three college kids.
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Very nice! I've gotten some good deals on used machinery, but never a free lathe. May I ask how that came about?
I've also moved a lot of machine tools.
I would recommend against an engine hoist. They are designed in such a way that the feet need to go under what you are moving. It is difficult to pick up a free standing machine with one.
Is there any help loading it, or do you have to move it from where it sits to your garage?
You can roll really quite heavy things across a clean concrete floor using roller. Steel water pipe works well, but believe it or not, even 3/4 inch pvc pipe rollers can handle a lot of weight.
As far as picking things up and setting them down between a floor and a trailer or truck go, I've done it a few different ways.
Best and easiest is with the proper tools. A skid steer and a chain put my shaper in a trailer.
In lue of that, a chainfall on any suitably sturdy point works. I happen to have a steel I beam running across my garage, supporting the second floor. I welded a D-ring to it. I backed my trailer into the garage, under the D-ring, and hooked it up with a heavy strap (6400lb), and picked it right up with a 2 ton chainfall. Drive trailer out from under it, set the machine down.
Once I found myself in a real bind. I had a great deal on a mill, and was able to use a pallet jack to load it off a loading dock into the bed of my F250. Now the hard part, getting it out of the bed of my truck. Lacking a suitable high place to lift it from, I spent $110 in wood and knocked together a gantry. Problem solved. I sold the gantry a week later for $100 on craigslist to a guy who needed to get a salt spreader out of his truck bed.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi65.tinypic.com%2F6zrjww.jpg&hash=a09f514068bfd7bf7e9b480c199eddbe63c192c1)
Other random thoughts:
Machine tools are top heavy. It's better to hoist them up then to lift from underneath.
This isn't actually that hard to do, but you really have to thing about your moves before you do anything. Don't be in a hurry.
Don't place yourself under anything suspended.
Let the tools do the work
Watch the weight ratings of any lifting equipment.
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Cool picture bro.
1250 lbs not really rigger territory, more like 12 pack of beer and three college kids.
Unless you want it to arrive in one piece, and still functional.
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Detcord ???
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(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi65.tinypic.com%2F6zrjww.jpg&hash=a09f514068bfd7bf7e9b480c199eddbe63c192c1)
I have this mental image of one of your neighbors standing at the kitchen sink, cup of coffee in hand early one Saturday morning looking out their window.... "Honey? Why is Nick building a gallows?"
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Google "machinery movers". They have the tools and experience to put it right where you want it.
And Nick, those clamps holding your gantry/gallows together don't give me warm fuzzies when lifting something that heavy...
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Google "machinery movers". They have the tools and experience to put it right where you want it.
And Nick, those clamps holding your gantry/gallows together don't give me warm fuzzies when lifting something that heavy...
I was wondering if anyone would pick up on that. It probably isn't clear in the picture, but the clamps aren't actually clamping anything that is taking weight. For that matter, neither are any of the the fasteners.
You know, something that annoys me is whenever threads like this happen, people are always quick to point out that it's safe and easy to hire it out. Well, duh. Zahc could well do that. But that's not what he asked - he asked about the tools and techniques to accomplish this himself. Maybe he's actually interested in learning something and developing a new skill.
As I have done this myself many times and many ways, and spent some time reading up how to do it, I'm offering my insight on it.
But, should you read these bits of experience as a little too KD5NRH-ish: Zahc, if you don't feel that you are able to use your head and the information available to you to use simple machines to shift a load which is too heavy to directly move with your body, please consider using a professional service.
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I used a rented forklift with some rigging straps around the bed.
I don't know if you have experience- but be careful- a lathe is a nice soothing tool-not shrieky scary like a high speed table saw or shaper -but capable of devastating and fatal injury- read up on safe operation.
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But, should you read these bits of experience as a little too KD5NRH-ish:
Hey! The most unorthodox bit about the solution I offered is having to offer Rosie O'Donnell a ride on your handlebars to balance things out.
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I don't know if you have experience- but be careful- a lathe is a nice soothing tool-not shrieky scary like a high speed table saw or shaper
As long as everything is nice and tight. And the lathe is suitably heavy. Mounting it securely to a heavier object is recommended. While a decommissioned destroyer is ideal ballast for smaller lathes, anything with a swing over 6" is worth calling around to see if you can get a tanker and enough concrete to fill it.
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Mine is about that size, with pretty much that same cabinet, I moved it into place with my engine hoist, but it was a pain. As was mentioned the wheels needed to be under it.
Basically I did this: build the two stands and place them, leave the center kick panel out. Put drip pan on mounting studs to confirm spacing of stands.then remove the studs except for the one on the far right as you look at the machine. I lifted the lathe with a strap around the bed webbing about 8" from the breadstick (makes it a little tailstock heavy) then ran a ratchet strap from the hook to the tail end to adjust tilt. You need to get the hook down to within about a foot of the bed to have enough height to clear the stands. Then maneuver into place.
You end up coming into the stands at about a 45 degree angle from the headstock stand and placing that end first. The wheels of the engine hoist have to go on either side of the stand. (That's why you left the center kick piece out.) Once the head stock is in place on the stud you left in place you can set the lathe down and maneuver it over the mounting holes by muscle. I also used a tapered alignment bar from inside the stands to help line up the stand, drip pan and lathe. Bolt it down and start leveling.
I bought heavy duty leveling feet to put my stands on which helped a lot with the tuning, although it means my machine isn't bolted down. Pluses and minuses to that, but it's heavy enough it doesn't really walk. Don't try to take huge passes in stainless or anything,
That's a really handy size machine.
I will also add this: I already had an engine crane. If I was buying something new, and had the room, I would look at one of those mobile gantrys Harbor Freight sells. You need the 2 ton engine crane if you go that route.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F4b8htRL.jpg&hash=79d1f30c7467adee0aed9775c1cae27acb410357)
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The lathe is free but it remains to be seen if it's worthless or not. It's been sitting in the corner for 10 years unused. The price reflects the fact that it needs clean up and I don't know if it runs. I have a "nice" mini-lathe now; my biggest gripe with it is having to change the gears all the time.
Hiring someone is actually my preferred option, but I don't know if I will be able to find someone. I have a feeling professional riggers prefer bigger jobs, movers are used to moving boxes, tow truck drivers prefer to move cars, etc. but I will call around.
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My only concern with rollers would be the stand has limited area, could be done, lots of roller moves. And yes, pvc is nice. We use steel torsion bars, hollow 30" stick of one inch high carbon steel, limitless supply with race cars. We're it at our place, front end loader or backhoe, nylon sling, done. Two handtrucks once on flat concrete.
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Don't use rollers under the stand. They are pretty thin metal and not designed for side loading. Hit a little pebble or something and it could fold. Plus, as was mentioned, lathes are pretty top heavy. You really want to lift these.
there are bigger machines that have integrated cast iron bases you can put on wheels or rollers, but this isn't one of them. That's basically a large "benchtop" lathe with an accessory cabinet under it.
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The lathe is free but it remains to be seen if it's worthless or not. It's been sitting in the corner for 10 years unused. The price reflects the fact that it needs clean up and I don't know if it runs. I have a "nice" mini-lathe now; my biggest gripe with it is having to change the gears all the time.
That's your basic Chinese import lathe. Pretty ubiquitous and lots of parts around. Even if it doesn't run I wouldn't call it worthless. From Grizzly, new, it's like 5 grand to your door. Honestly, if it's complete and the ways aren't buggered up it's worth a couple grand.
Do be aware that the Chinese lathes are notorious for needing a complete tear down and cleaning, and some tuning to make run true.
I have a lathe, and if that was offered to me free I'd grab it on general principles.
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I had the lathe delivered via lift gate truck and pallet-jack into my garage. So now it's sitting in my garage on a 7x5 wood skid. I tried to pick up the tailstock end with all I have...not even a budge. Somehow I will figure out how to get it off the skid and into position. Probably with some type of temporary 4x4 gantry and rollers.
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Do be aware that the Chinese lathes are notorious for needing a complete tear down and cleaning, and some tuning to make run true.
Which has its benefits; before you really get going, you get to figure out all the quirks of alignment it has, and where each type of crud tends to build up.
I have a lathe, and if that was offered to me free I'd grab it on general principles.
Hell, I wouldn't even have anywhere to put it, but I bet I could find somebody local for a "you're welcome to use it for as long as I'm storing it in your shop" deal.
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I made roller skates for it out of 1/4 thick angle and some metal machine wheels from Northern Tool. It took 3 evenings of harrowing pallet-surgery to transfer it to the skates, but now I can scoot it around my garage. I also put machinery feet so when I get it where I want I will just put the feet down.
2 problems so far: one, it's totally covered in graphite dust, which makes sense from where I got it. It was either used to machine graphite or just accumulated it from the environment. Very annoying to try to clean up. It just smears around. I'm debating wheeling it back out in the driveway and hosing it off.
Second, the gear and shaft for the appron power feeds is gone. Clearly somebody deliberately removed it, because I found the roll-pin that held it in rattling around in the apron. Everything else looks fine, so I dunno. I found out that despite the different brand this looks identical to the Grizzly brand 12x36 "gunsmithing lathe". Grizzly sells new gears for $13 so I ordered one. We will see if it's compatible. I also bought new half nuts for $40 although the ones on it weren't all that bad.
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I used a rented forklift with some rigging straps around the bed.
I don't know if you have experience- but be careful- a lathe is a nice soothing tool-not shrieky scary like a high speed table saw or shaper -but capable of devastating and fatal injury- read up on safe operation.
Won't post the pix - too graphic for APS - but here's a link to what was alluded to above. Be careful! http://www.riverdavesplace.com/forums/threads/machinist-gets-sucked-through-lathe-dont-click-if-you-dont-want-to-see.3124/ (http://www.riverdavesplace.com/forums/threads/machinist-gets-sucked-through-lathe-dont-click-if-you-dont-want-to-see.3124/)
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Been over thirty years but I still remember my friend getting a sleeve caught and a big wack to the head when he hit the chuck.
I was a machinist for many years never got more then some bumps and bruises and a bad back from it. Take that back I do still have some metal in my side that gets interesting question any time I get an X-ray.
Jim
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Graphite, kind of interesting. I have ended up with similar results when machining lots of cast iron.
Have an pictures, zahc?
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Not necessarily a bad thing to have to clean it- you will notice all the little problems etc.
I would not recommend hosing it off, unless you intend to completely dismantle it to further clean, dry and lube.
The water will get everywhere, inside it. I did that with my mill, it had sat in a barn since WW2 and had sawdust, rat *expletive deleted*it and grease and chips on it an inch thick- I used a trowel to initially clean it, then a hose , then took it apart. Found a dead rat in the coolant reservoir.
Try a shop vac, a brush, and a few rolls of paper towels with some simple green.
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I have some pictures but I don't know how to attach them. I always get a message that the file size exceeds 3 bytes or whatever the limit is. I don't have any photo cloudy accounts.
I had a major diversion after I checked out the circuits and I kept measuring various resistance between the live legs and ground, when it should be almost infinite resistance between them. It turns out the cord was coiled up in the chip tray, and the plug prongs were contacting the tool every now and then. Derp.
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So far the worst I did was catch a file on a surface I wasn't aiming for. Acetal part, so three hours in the bin, but no other problem, my files have handles. I have no issue running large parts, but I am also never not scared of the lathe.
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Lathe is a tool you respect. Always. Period.
Well, I guess a treadle or pole lathe is only likely to eat a relatively small piece of you, but I digress.
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I have some pictures but I don't know how to attach them. I always get a message that the file size exceeds 3 bytes or whatever the limit is. I don't have any photo cloudy accounts.
I had a major diversion after I checked out the circuits and I kept measuring various resistance between the live legs and ground, when it should be almost infinite resistance between them. It turns out the cord was coiled up in the chip tray, and the plug prongs were contacting the tool every now and then. Derp.
I use to use photobucket, but now use imgur. No account needed, go upload some pictures, and "get share links" for each uploaded pic. Even gives you the BB code.
Good on you for starting with some electrical sanity checks. Few would.
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My mill has a 1942 electrical box about 18" square and a foot deep. It looks like a laboratory prop from "Bride of Frankenstein" inside there. =) Still works fine though.
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I did that with my mill, it had sat in a barn since WW2 and had sawdust, rat *expletive deleted*it and grease and chips on it an inch thick- I used a trowel to initially clean it, then a hose , then took it apart. Found a dead rat in the coolant reservoir.
Flatbed truck, touch-free car wash. Especially when you have sunny, 110+F Texas summer weather to help dry it on the way home. We used to do this with various kinds of equipment the boss got "found in a barn" deals on.
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Anyone know electrical codes?
I need a 240V receptacle. I already have a dedicated run of EMT with receptacles down the garage wall, on its own 20A/120V breaker. The very easy way to add a 240V receptacle at the end, would be to replace current single-pole breaker with a 2-pole, and run 1 additional wire to the end of the EMT run, and terminate with a 230V receptacle. This would then constitute a multi-wire branch circuit. However, I have never seen a 240V receptacle in any sort of shared circuit. I have always seen 240V receptacles on their own dedicated circuits. Is that just because 240V receptacles are relatively specialized in North America, and because 240V circuits are usually more than 20A, or is it actual code problem with mixing 240V and 120V receptacles in a circuit?
I can create a new circuit too, but I need to buy a 2-pole breaker and run 2 wires, and I'm running out of slots in my panel, and space in my 1/2" EMT. Seems overkill for a measly 8A load.
Edit: nevermind. Because the 120V receptacles are GFCI as required by code. It turns out the lathe cord is long enough to reach my homebrew system 30A/240V receptacle. So I'm just going to put a matching plug on the lathe and I won't be able to use the lathe while brewing.
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Would it be feasible for you to replace your breaker panel with a larger one? Is that something you feel comfortable taking on yourself?
If so, it would be a good project to "future proof" your place electrically speaking. (Not that you don't have enough stuff on your project list already. =D)
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A sub-panel is another, easier way to go. Remove one or two circuits from the existing panel, use that space to install a 30 or larger two pole to feed another small panel. Put the removed circuits & whatever new into the sub.
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Sub panel is not justified right now.
I read up more, and just for future reference, there is no code problem with mixing 240 and 120 receptacles on a circuit. It's just rare, because 240v 20A receptacles, especially ones whichare not for a dedicated appliance, are rare. Usually 240v appliances are on the list of things that require dedicated circuits.There is an enumerated list of appliances that require dedicated circuits, and lathe is not one of them, nor air compressor etc.
Furthermore 240V receptacles are exempt outright from any GFCI requirements, but 120V receptacles in garages are required to be GFCI.
If I made a MWBC with one leg GFCI/120V and the other one for 240V, it would trip the GFCI whenever the 240V was used due to how GFCI works. The 240V current would "look" like fault current to the GFCI.
I will use up 2 precious slots to make a dedicated 240V circuit for the garage. Oughta have one anyway. Then I will have 2 slots left in the panel, both of which will go the the mini-split AC unit I am installing. Some of the mini-split units are actually 120v, so I might only need 1 slot for the AC.