Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Snowdog on September 09, 2018, 03:29:53 AM
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So I'm just curious.
I just watched a video on YouTube by Project Farm (one of the very few channels I've subscribed to) that demonstrated that a small engine can run on straight white gas. It went a step further and showed a generator, under load, running off nothing but white gas.
Though it was far from ideal, it did show that it could be done should an "emergency mowing" be needed when there's no gasoline to be had.
Later, I read that some have actually run their vehicles on it, during an emergency (typically running out of fuel and needing something to limp to the gas station).
The only real complaint is knocking and concerns about damaging the valves. This is said to be caused by the low octane of white gas.
So here's the question. If you had a gallon of white gas as well as a few sealed bottles of various octane boosters and a, say... a 2016 Kia Soul. Could a person travel 30 miles on this combination (when the vehicle typically gives 36-38 MPG on 87 octane)? If so, would damage to the engine or other serious complications occur even after refueling with the proper fuel?
This is just something I'm curious about. I don't intend to do it, but "knowledge is power" and all that.
Thanks in advance!
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You could definitely run an older car off it, say a Ford Model A...
I would imagine the amount of octane booster to get the octane up to the high 80s would be prohitively expensive.
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Short answer... For a serious emergency, maybe. For any other reason, no. You risk serious engine damage. It's easier and cheaper to keep a gallon of gas on hand, or to pay a buddy or AAA to bring you some.
Longer answer...
First thing is to clear up what white gas is, or rather, isn't. "White gas" is one of those non-terms which gets tossed around a lot but doesn't really describe anything beyond a very broad general classification. It is commonly invoked when the combustible liquid involved isn't pump gas, diesel, kerosene, or some other recognizable or name-specified petroleum product. In current usage the product it's most commonly used to describe, Coleman Fuel, is plain old naptha, albeit a good grade and properly filtered (AKA lighter fluid and camp fuel). To be perfectly honest even naphtha is a bit broad as a category, covering a relatively wide range of light petroleum distillates.
The froms of naphtha most commonly available have stoichiometrics close enough to pump gas that they will run in most gasoline engines, at least on a mechanical level. Carbureted engine are usually no problem. Electronically controlled engines will struggle with fuel trims. The killer is octane. Naphtha hovers around 70 so the engine is going to ping like crazy even under very light loads, maybe even at idle. The engine is going to run like crap and quickly begin self-destructing from the inside, probably starting with the piston rings or ring lands. It's doubly bad given the compression ratios used these days in search of ever-higher fuel efficiency. That's if the computer doesn't throw up it's little electronic hands and quit entirely in confused frustration.
Brad
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For an emergency I would much rather have cans of premix chainsaw gas around and let the car deal with the oil in it, it will be fine. Sealed metal can, should keep a long time. Sunoco also sells it's racing gas in five gallon cans. Expensive as hell, leaded, no ethanol, high octane. Again, sealed metal can, I think it is worth the $70 just to set one aside.
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On a related note, gasoline works in Coleman stoves.
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I used to run my 47 Chevy on Casinghead/Drip Gas. Would NOT try this in a modern car or bike engine. An older Briggs engine should be fine. Not easy to come across the stuff unless ya know someone that has an oil well so...
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For an emergency I would much rather have cans of premix chainsaw gas around and let the car deal with the oil in it, it will be fine. Sealed metal can, should keep a long time. Sunoco also sells it's racing gas in five gallon cans. Expensive as hell, leaded, no ethanol, high octane. Again, sealed metal can, I think it is worth the $70 just to set one aside.
Easier and almost the same price per gallon (presuming you're paying shipping for the Sunoco) to get a couple gallons of TruFuel 4 Cycle fuel or VP Small Engine Fuel at HomeDepot, Lowes, Tractor Supply, and most automotive supply stores. That's the ethanol-free stuff they sell for lawn equipment. Steel container and designed for long storage intervals.
If you can find a verifiable source of ethanol-free fuel locally then a couple of gasoline-certified containers and a big bottle of StaBil will get you about the same result for far less money. If you use a fair bit of gas in lawn equipment then keep two five gallon containers and just rotate through them, conscientiously filling the empty container before rotating to the next full one. That way you never have less than five gallons on hand at any time.
Brad
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Well... Local Sunoco stocks the race gas, I picked up some for my dad since that is his small engine gas. Clerk goes in the back, comes out carrying a can. Yeah, they stock cans of gas inside the store. Shocked face.
I get ethanol free at home, station down the street. I want to switch to all metal cans, I think the gas goes off through the plastic over time.
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On a related note, gasoline works in Coleman stoves.
That's what I'm thinking. If you're worried about emergency vehicle fuel, and possibly using your stove's fuel, rather than buying octane booster, buy gasoline and burn it in your stove if it becomes necessary.
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Well... Local Sunoco stocks the race gas, I picked up some for my dad since that is his small engine gas. Clerk goes in the back, comes out carrying a can. Yeah, they stock cans of gas inside the store. Shocked face.
I get ethanol free at home, station down the street. I want to switch to all metal cans, I think the gas goes off through the plastic over time.
As far as I know, there is no ethanol-free gas in my state other than the small (quart?) cans of pre-mix 2-stroke fuel sold at Tractor Supply. If I want ethanol-free for my older mowers, I have to buy pump gas and remove the ethanol myself.
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Well... Local Sunoco stocks the race gas, I picked up some for my dad since that is his small engine gas. Clerk goes in the back, comes out carrying a can. Yeah, they stock cans of gas inside the store. Shocked face.
And Sunoco claims a minimum 3 year shelf life for a factory sealed 5 gallon steel pail of their race gas. When I was using steel pails and refilling them with regular pump gas, I just cycled one out each month; pour it in the tank, go to the gas station to top off the tank and refill the can. Never had a problem with ~6 month old gas stored that way. I'd still do it, but I don't have anywhere reasonable to put it other than out at mom's storage shed, (inconveniently placed about 200 yards from the house for just that sort of thing) and a 10 mile drive to get it defeats the "oops, I'm on empty and it's not payday yet" part of the purpose entirely. (Plus the inconvenience of rotating it if it's out there, though having ~1,800 miles worth of gas on hand is quite comforting, so I may do it again anyway at some point.)
As for pouring, a fuel-safe squeeze-bulb-start siphon rig is under $15 wherever kerosene stoves are sold. Just make sure there's plenty of hose to set the can on the trunk lid or roof of your vehicle over the fuel filler hole, and plenty to go 8-12" inside the filler hole. Beats the hell out of holding a 5 gallon can, and no special nozzle needed.
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"I have to buy pump gas and remove the ethanol myself."
How the hell do you remove ethanol from gasoline?
I know you can still buy straight gasoline at the pump in Iowa, as I saw it numerous places when I was out there in May, but I don't know of any place in Virginia or Pennsylvania where you can buy straight gas at the pump.
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"I have to buy pump gas and remove the ethanol myself."
How the hell do you remove ethanol from gasoline?
I know you can still buy straight gasoline at the pump in Iowa, as I saw it numerous places when I was out there in May, but I don't know of any place in Virginia or Pennsylvania where you can buy straight gas at the pump.
Clicky. (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=How+the+hell+do+you+remove+ethanol+from+gasoline%3F)
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Clicky. (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=How+the+hell+do+you+remove+ethanol+from+gasoline%3F)
HOLY CRAP!!! You mean that there's actually something that can help you find *expletive deleted*it that you're interested in? And that it's just sitting out there, hidden in plain site?
Well what the hell use is this place, then?
Eat a pump of dicks, dude. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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What you need to do is buy a surplus M35A2 (https://www.easternsurplus.net/VehicleDetails/35/Bobbed-M35A2-with-Winch) with the multi-fuel engine, and keep it maintained. Then you can run just about anything that burns as fuel. (MPG might be a tic less than a Kia Soul)
Joking aside OP asked:
So here's the question. If you had a gallon of white gas as well as a few sealed bottles of various octane boosters and a, say... a 2016 Kia Soul. Could a person travel 30 miles on this combination (when the vehicle typically gives 36-38 MPG on 87 octane)? If so, would damage to the engine or other serious complications occur even after refueling with the proper fuel?
Maybe, Maybe not. That engine is computerized enough that it might not. The question is why would you try? If you're at home, keep a 5 gal can of gas, stabilized, and swap it out once a year. Then you'll have plenty of kia fuel. If you're looking for something to keep in the car, there exists commercial, safer solutions (https://www.homedepot.com/p/Magic-Tank-64-fl-oz-1-2-Gal-Non-Flammable-Emergency-Fuel-MT1/206005064)already. (that stuff has it's limits, but probably less than Naptha.)
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OK, that's really interesting on how to remove ethanol from gasoline. I had no idea that it would be as simple as that.
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"I have to buy pump gas and remove the ethanol myself."
How the hell do you remove ethanol from gasoline?
Alcohol is more attracted to water than it is to gasoline. You pour a gallon of gas into a container, dump in a little water, shake it up, and then wait for the water/alcohol mix to settle out. Pour off the gasoline, separate out the water/alcohol, and repeat. It doesn't take much water, either. I'd have to look it up again, but I think it takes about a cup of water to de-ethanolize a gallon of gasoline.
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OK, that's really interesting on how to remove ethanol from gasoline. I had no idea that it would be as simple as that.
Alcohol is more attracted to water than it is to gasoline. You pour a gallon of gas into a container, dump in a little water, shake it up, and then wait for the water/alcohol mix to settle out. Pour off the gasoline, separate out the water/alcohol, and repeat. It doesn't take much water, either. I'd have to look it up again, but I think it takes about a cup of water to de-ethanolize a gallon of gasoline.
eh sorta. You will not get all the ethanol out that way, and you will not be left with gasoline that meets the octane rating that it was supposed to when it was pumped. You will get a lot of the ethanol however. Your gas will also have some dissolved water in it. It should also be noted that you then have ethanol contaminated water, which you shouldn't pour down a drain.
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Yeah, its as simple as extracting it out with water...
That 10% ethanol is adding to the octane rating, however...
After you extract the ethanol out, you'll be left with gasoline with an octane rating in the low 80s...
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eh sorta. You will not get all the ethanol out that way, and you will not be left with gasoline that meets the octane rating that it was supposed to when it was pumped. You will get a lot of the ethanol however. Your gas will also have some dissolved water in it. It should also be noted that you then have ethanol contaminated water, which you shouldn't pour down a drain.
Put a handful of magnesium sulfate or Sodium sulfate in the extracted gasoline- it will absorb mush of the water from the organics.
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eh sorta. You will not get all the ethanol out that way, and you will not be left with gasoline that meets the octane rating that it was supposed to when it was pumped. You will get a lot of the ethanol however. Your gas will also have some dissolved water in it. It should also be noted that you then have ethanol contaminated water, which you shouldn't pour down a drain.
Ethanol is fine down a drain. It is the leftover gasoline I'd be worried about.
And I'd be worried about the gasoline slipping into the 70s for octane.
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Ethanol is fine down a drain. It is the leftover gasoline I'd be worried about.
And I'd be worried about the gasoline slipping into the 70s for octane.
Yep, If you plan on this, start with at least 92. Fortunately, premium gas around here has no ethanol.
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It's probably actually fine, but I'd bet money there is no where in this country you can poor a separated gasoline additive down a drain (legally). The odds of getting caught are small, but I thought I'd mention it all the same. The EPA is, after all, known for their sense of proportion and understanding.
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It's probably actually fine, but I'd bet money there is no where in this country you can poor a separated gasoline additive down a drain (legally). The odds of getting caught are small, but I thought I'd mention it all the same. The EPA is, after all, known for their sense of proportion and understanding.
*puts chemist hat back on*
I haven't read any of the websites about extracting ethanol from gasoline.... but if you were to use say a 15-20% (around 36% is saturated) salt solution, the difference in densities should give you a nice clean layer cut with little gasoline going into the water/ethanol layer. Doing 3 of such extractions should scavenge the majority of the ethanol out, leave the last bit of aqueous layer for the last cut, drain that seperately- its going to contain the rat hair, fingernails, smegma, and various 'gunk', and cut that little bit seperately... then burn it in your next leaf fire.
all hypothetical...
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"I have to buy pump gas and remove the ethanol myself."
How the hell do you remove ethanol from gasoline?
I know you can still buy straight gasoline at the pump in Iowa, as I saw it numerous places when I was out there in May, but I don't know of any place in Virginia or Pennsylvania where you can buy straight gas at the pump.
Virginia
397 Pure Gas Stations in Virginia https://www.pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=VA
Pennsylvania
188 Pure Gas Stations in Pennsylvania https://www.pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=PA
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1 station about 25 miles away. Nothing closer.
Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
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In Iowa they blend 85 octane gasoline with 10% ethanol to get 87 octane fuel. 85 + 15% ethanol gets you 88 octane fuel.
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Thirty miles to closet big store here.
Oh no 25 miles.
You big city people are spoiled.
I can't remember if it was acetone or naphtha that you could dissolve mothballs in and get a hot octane boost.
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Go to the airport and buy 10 gallons of 100 LowLead. 100 octane, with additives to keep it stable for a long time. You’re going to pay $4.50-5.00 per gallon but it’s better than the quart cans at the farm store. Smells better, too.
JB
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For 'liability reasons', the local FBOs at the local airports will no longer sell avgas unless it is being pumped directly into an aircraft fuel tank. No more five gallon cans or using it in your auto.
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My garage is 80* - 95*- 24/7 - 300 days / yr … how would that affect the longevity of the canned gas or ethanol free w/ Stabil in a steel jerry can ?
:cool:
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Surprise! I found a web site www.pure-gas.org that lists places selling ethanol-free gasoline, byt state. I thought it was completely unavailable in my state, but there are a few smal engine and lawn equipment shops that sell it -- by the can, not from a pump. I called the shop nearest me and asked if they still have it. They do.
Price? A mere $27 per gallon.
So I'm back to removing the ethanol for mowers and small engines. But ethanol is an octane booster, so then I had to research how much the octane drops after the ethanol has been removed. So far, it appears the answer is 3 to 4 points, which means if I want to purify my own gas I should be buying at least mid-grade, or maybe premium. Hey, it's still cheaper than $27/gallon.
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Surprise! I found a web site www.pure-gas.org that lists places selling ethanol-free gasoline, byt state.
From what I can tell they use a Wiki-esque system of public submission so take everything there with a grain of salt and do some independent confirmation.
Brad
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Surprise! I found a web site www.pure-gas.org that lists places selling ethanol-free gasoline, byt state. I thought it was completely unavailable in my state, but there are a few smal engine and lawn equipment shops that sell it -- by the can, not from a pump. I called the shop nearest me and asked if they still have it. They do.
Price? A mere $27 per gallon.
So I'm back to removing the ethanol for mowers and small engines. But ethanol is an octane booster, so then I had to research how much the octane drops after the ethanol has been removed. So far, it appears the answer is 3 to 4 points, which means if I want to purify my own gas I should be buying at least mid-grade, or maybe premium. Hey, it's still cheaper than $27/gallon.
Check boat marinas too
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VP Racing Fuel master table. Pay close attention to the Unleaded listings with "No" in the O2 column (non-oxygenated = no alcohol).
https://vpracingfuels.com/master-fuel-table/
C9 and Vintage Unleaded are $68 for five gallons, right at the $70/5 gallons that French mentioned for Sunoco. No idea on shipping cost. If you don't have a Sunoco dealer you might be able to find a VP dealer somewhere nearby, so... options.
Vintage Leaded is only eight bucks more but make sure you never, never, ever pour any of it in your car's tank unless you like replacing catalytic converters and oxygen sensors.
Brad