Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: Hawkmoon on October 14, 2018, 02:31:57 PM
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Saudi Arabia is as much as admitting that they killed the journalist (IMHO):
https://ca.news.yahoo.com/saudi-arabia-says-respond-economic-sanctions-spa-112824051.html
In other words, "Unless you ignore what we all know we did, we'll raise the price for our oil."
(Or we could just nationalize Venezuela.)
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A different take on the situation:
https://pjmedia.com/spengler/german-press-reveals-saudi-spook-saga-behind-khashoggi-disappearance/
Not sure on the source. Whose side are they on?
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And now the Saudis are going to claim it was a "rogue" operation, or an "interrogation that went wrong," but they are apparently going to drop the untenable position that Kashoggi left the consulate alive.
https://www.mediaite.com/tv/breaking-cnn-reports-saudis-preparing-to-admit-missing-journalist-was-killed-in-interrogation-gone-wrong/
Let's see -- a 15-man team, that arrived in Turkey the day of the incident and all left the next day. But the Saudi government didn't know anything about it. Got it.
I wonder if King Salman is re-thinking his crown price designee at the moment. If he's not, he should be.
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We the people rarely ever get to know what is really going on in the halls of power.
If they told us they would have to kill us.
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I don’t know that Trump has any real good choices here. We probably should not really be such close allies with Saudi Arabia, but that relationship goes all the way back to FDR. They are also a buffer against Iran and there were old Cold War implications of maintaining some influence in the area vs. the Soviets and even China. We are kind of stuck now.
If we had spent more effort becoming independent of Middle East oil in previous administrations going back past even Carter we would not be in this position as badly. Hopefully if we can get more US oil production and get Nuclear back off the ground we could start disengaging with a lot of ME countries. If I recall correctly we don’t get that much oil from the ME anymore, but other allies do, we need to be able to supply them instead of them needing to engage with these backwards countries.
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We don't get that much oil from the Middle East. We get most of our oil imports from Canada and Mexico. I think it would have less direct impact on us than other Western nations, but it would still disrupt the crude oil market and increase gas prices. However, would that impact Saudi Arabia more than us in the long run? And how long would that process take?
If we would open up off shore drilling outside the Gulf of Mexico, I think we would be sitting pretty good.
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The plot sickens. The saudi version seems to be "evolving" ...
"He left the consulate alive" ==>
"We don't know what happened to him" ==>
"It's possible someone tried to kidnap him" ==>
"Some rogue agents might have tried to interrogate him and made a mistake" ...
Now it appears the Turks do have an actual recording of the guy being dismembered while still [sort of] alive.
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/exclusive-khashoggi-829291552
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More ...
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/suspects-in-khashoggi-case-had-ties-to-saudi-crown-prince/ar-BBOtPRm
I don't much care for the current government of Turkey, but I dislike the Saudi ruling family as much as (or more than) I dislike Erdogan. It disgusts me that our government is even making a pretext of excusing the Saudis for what was apparently a premeditated and particularly brutal assassination.
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15,000 dead Polish army officers in a forest in Poland, falsely blamed on the Nazis because we didn't want to offend our wonderful Soviet allies.
Forgive me if I don't come down on a side until the Turks actually provide some proof.
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This story confuses me. Or rather the fact that it's a story confuses me.
So you're saying that the Saudi Government will kill it's citizens of it wants to?
Yeah, and? Or rather No *expletive deleted*it. Saudi spook *expletive deleted*s up and gets offed by the Saudi's. In other news Sun is bright. I would say that they did it in another country is valley, but Turkey isn't so much a bastion of order and civil rights.
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Technically *if* the Saudis did it in their embassy, then it's *in* their country.
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To me the unfortunate message to crappy countries is do whatever you like if you have nuclear weapons. The Soviets knock over a few countries, poison some people in London and the world doesn't say much. Because what can you say? Or else...? Or else what comrade, maybe we poison you too.
Saudis don't have that level of go to hell backup and if the world stops buying their one export, then what?
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I think it is because he was friendly with some Western journalists. Rush was pointing out yesterday that the guy was basically a news censor working for the Saudi royals. He was also a radical Islam guy who was friendly with the Muslim Brotherhood and was an opponent of the Western reforms the Saudi's were doing lately. I won't say anyone in this are good guys, but at least I can say the Saudi's aren't the only bad guy in this story.
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I guess I'm wondering why this is any of our concern. Seems like this is between the Turks and Saudis. So in that case, I rooting for the meteor...
Yes, I know, the media has their panties in a wad because this guy "worked" for the Washingate Pest. But again, I will point out. Saudi citizen, in Turkey. Doesn't sound like a problem we should be involved in.
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My (rough) understanding from my intel buddies (Open Source Stuff):
Dead dude was on the "make the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia (KSA) more fundamentalist" side of the Royal Family. Current KSA Crown Prince is on the "Make KSA more western (ish)" side of the Royal Family. Dead dude was critical of KSA government recently and Crown Prince in particular. Dead Dude had done spook work for the KSA gov before he got critical and had worked with Muslim Brotherhood to thwart KSA secularization.
Dead dude dying this way is bad for the Crown Prince because he either 1. ordered a hit that was carried out unprofessionally, or 2. Isn't in control of his people.
*Turkey or Muslim Brotherhood could have killed him, to undermine the KSA Crown Prince's power at home.
*KSA Royal's that are rival's to and/or don't like the Crown Prince's plans could have killed him to make Crown Prince look bad/weak.
*Crown Prince could have killed him because he was writing things in western media counter to KSA gov's wishes.
*It might not be political at all and have something to do with his Arms Dealer uncle or Muslim Brotherhood terrorist pals.
*It might BE KSA political because of something we don't know about (and he was talking too much).
*There's a chance it had to do with dead dude's upcoming marriage. (Her family isn't happy with the "marry some dude in exile" decision)
*Or something else entirely.
This is why it's better to not mess about in the Mideast if you don't have to. *expletive deleted*it get's complicated fast. Whatever they cause, it seems (to my more professional intel geek friends) that someone is likely using the story to whip up western sentiment against KSA's Crown prince. There are apparently about 15 groups and/or nation states that might want to do that. We don't like any of them.
In any case, I am assured there are no good guys here.
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^^^^^ I stand by my post #13. It really sounds like an S.E.P.*
* - S.E.P. = Somebody Else's Problem.
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In any case, I am assured there are no good guys here.
Considering the list of players, I thought that was a given.
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To me the unfortunate message to crappy countries is do whatever you like if you have nuclear weapons. The Soviets knock over a few countries, poison some people in London and the world doesn't say much. Because what can you say? Or else...? Or else what comrade, maybe we poison you too.
Saudis don't have that level of go to hell backup and if the world stops buying their one export, then what?
The Saudis have an undeclared nuclear capability already. They funded much of Pakistan's program with the tacit understanding that if stuff goes seriously sideways in the Middle East the Pakistanis will launch on the Saudi's behalf, or provide them with a deployable device rikki-tick.
The Saudi second hand nuclear capability is part of Iran's motivation to go nuclear, aside from the obvious primary one that they want to be a player in regional MAD, so they can engage in low level proxy war and terrorism indefinitely, without fear of a regime-change invasion. Mainly as a way of maintaining a constant state of external crisis so the hardline revolutionary government can keep control internally.
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Thank you dogmush. And AJ
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Why is no one talking about the obvious, fail-safe response we should be fielding at this very moment? Send in James Taylor, already!
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This story confuses me. Or rather the fact that it's a story confuses me.
So you're saying that the Saudi Government will kill it's citizens of it wants to?
Yeah, and? Or rather No *expletive deleted*it.
True, the Saudis kill people every day but there's good reason this one gets coverage here.
If people want to argue that Jamal Khashoggi’s death is being treated differently because he was a member of the news media, wrote for the Washington Post, and had a lot of friends in the U.S. foreign-policy media establishment, well . . . welcome to the real world. If you kill somebody who wrote for the Post, then the Post is going to write about that murder a lot. This is personal to them. You would react more strongly if a friend or co-worker was killed than if it happened to some guy who lived on the other side of town.
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The Saudis have an undeclared nuclear capability already. They funded much of Pakistan's program with the tacit understanding that if stuff goes seriously sideways in the Middle East the Pakistanis will launch on the Saudi's behalf, or provide them with a deployable device rikki-tick.
The Saudi second hand nuclear capability is part of Iran's motivation to go nuclear, aside from the obvious primary one that they want to be a player in regional MAD, so they can engage in low level proxy war and terrorism indefinitely, without fear of a regime-change invasion. Mainly as a way of maintaining a constant state of external crisis so the hardline revolutionary government can keep control internally.
Yeah I know about the A.Q. Khan secondhand nukes, but to pull them in would set off a bigger shitstorm. Everyone wants to be like the mossad or ruskies, but few have the balls to basically tell the world "yeah so?"
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ANd the media keeps ramping up the pressure for Trump to do something. But again, Turkey has not provided any evidence (Not the alleged Audio, not anything other then "We say he entered the embassy and never left.")
And as pointed out above, there are too many possible people/groups with competing and contradictory motivations to off the guy.
All that being said, it's still not our problem nor should we do anything to "punish" the Saudis, Turks or anyone else.
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Agreed on it not being our problem. Just another issue the media is trying to stir up.
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It wouldn't even be a story if the guy wasn't a WaPo propagandist.