Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Hawkmoon on December 17, 2018, 02:09:07 AM
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Just went to Ford's web site to take a look at the new Ranger compared to the F150.
After wasting a good half hour, I could not find anything to tell me which models/trim lines of either truck are available as 2-door or extended cab versions. WTF, Ford? What's the point of even having a web site if you can't be bothered to provide the most basic of product information?
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The Ranger doesn't come in 2 door, only Super Cab and Crew Cab. All trims are available as either.
The F150 is only available as a 2 door in XL and XLT trims. Super Cab gets you XL, XLT, Lariat, and Raptor trims. You have to get a Crew Cab to get a King Ranch.
Just click "build and price" on each vehicle and pick a body. It'll fill in which trims are available.
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Super Cab is a 2-door, isn't it? With some space behind the front seats?
When I tried to use click and build for the Ranger, it listed a bunch of model designations by number, with nothing to indicate if they were standard, extended, or crew cab. And the product photos show a standard cab ...
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Super Cab = Cab and a half (half-doors and compact seats in the rear section)
Super Crew = Double cab (full-size doors and seats both front and back)
https://shop.ford.com/build/ranger/#/select/
Brad
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Super Cab Ranger has 2 Suicide Doors in the back. Front doors have to be open to open them.
The Standard cab F150's used to be like this, but now are true two door trucks. Super Cab F150's have the suicide doors.
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My Saturn Ion Quad Coupe was that way and we LOVED IT! SO handy and you wouldn't believe what will fit in there!
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It would cost me $31,510 to get a Ranger optioned as close as possible to what I want. Unfortunately, what I really want is a manual transmission and a manual limited slip rear axle ... and they don't offer either of those. I guess Ford doesn't want to sell me a new ranger. For $31,510, I can get an entirely new drive train dropped into my Jeep Comanche, and get it painted, and still have money left over.
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It would cost me $31,510 to get a Ranger optioned as close as possible to what I want. Unfortunately, what I really want is a manual transmission and a manual limited slip rear axle ... and they don't offer either of those. I guess Ford doesn't want to sell me a new ranger. For $31,510, I can get an entirely new drive train dropped into my Jeep Comanche, and get it painted, and still have money left over.
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that's the case with any new vehicle
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It would cost me $31,510 to get a Ranger optioned as close as possible to what I want. Unfortunately, what I really want is a manual transmission and a manual limited slip rear axle ... and they don't offer either of those. I guess Ford doesn't want to sell me a new ranger. For $31,510, I can get an entirely new drive train dropped into my Jeep Comanche, and get it painted, and still have money left over.
This is my shocked face. You want the obsolete tech.
If it's that important you can still get a stick in a Taco. You just need to get one of the TRD versions. I think the TRD Sport starts around $32k.
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Jeep is bringing back their pickup. Every time I see a Toyota with TRD on the box I wonder why anyone would want a TURD for a pickup.
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This is my shocked face. You want the obsolete tech.
If it's that important you can still get a stick in a Taco. You just need to get one of the TRD versions. I think the TRD Sport starts around $32k.
:laugh:
Didn't they also still have a stick available in that Tacoma "work truck" - the plain jane extended cab without back seats? Or maybe they're not making it anymore. I briefly looked at it when I was trading down from the F250, but they only came with the 4 banger.
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Jeep is bringing back their pickup. Every time I see a Toyota with TRD on the box I wonder why anyone would want a TURD for a pickup.
The new Jeep "Gladiator" isn't really a pickup. It has a barely vestigial bed (5 feet, I think) and a soft top. It's essentially a rerun of the old CJ Scrambler, but they're calling it a pickup. We've been laughing at it over on the Comanche Club forum. The consensus is that Jeep will sell a bunch of them ... to people who don't know what a Jeep used to be. The real Jeep people don't want anything to do with it.
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I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that's the case with any new vehicle
Pickin's are pretty slim for stick-stirrers.
https://www.tfltruck.com/2017/09/comprehensive-2018-pickup-trucks-manual-transmission/
Interesting to note that getting the Ram HD with a manual deletes the Cummins HO engine option (385hp/900lb-ft). Tick the manual tranny option box and the only diesel available is the entry-level 350hp/660lb-ft version (still a helluva lot compared to even a few short years ago).
It's a testament to the behind-the-scenes electronic gimmickry necessary for driveline components to live under that much twist. Components tend to snap on a regular basis when you're applying that much force and there aren't any slushy bits between engine and road to cushion things.
Brad
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^ A good way to put it. Very amusing.
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I had trouble trying to buy Toyota accessories. I wanted the all-weather non-carpet floor mats. The web site section selling accessories seemed to use different terminology for cab size and such than the section talking about the trucks.
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It's a testament to the behind-the-scenes electronic gimmickry necessary for driveline components to live under that much twist. Components tend to snap on a regular basis when you're applying that much force and there aren't any slushy bits between engine and road to cushion things.
Which is testimony to the fact that most younger people can't properly drive a manual transmission. Not even the ones who can use one to make a car go down the road.
I'm 74 years old. I was taught to drive a standard by my grandfather. He taught well, IMHO. On my old '88 Jeep Cherokee, the clutch slave cylinder went out at 204,000 miles. It's internal, so replacing the combination slave cylinder/release bearing meant dropping the transmission and transfer case. At that point it would have been silly not to replace the clutch -- or so I thought. Once it was opened up, there was virtually no difference between the new clutch disk and the old one with 204,000 miles on it. I installed the new one, but I saved the old clutch and I wouldn't hesitate to throw it into a beater that needs a clutch.
On the other hand, I had a classmate in college who went through three clutches in 15,000 miles. :facepalm:
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Which is testimony to the fact that most younger people can't properly drive a manual transmission. Not even the ones who can use one to make a car go down the road.
At 16 I learned that if you revved the engine in a 66 Mustang and side-stepped the clutch, it didn't do the burnout I was expecting but it DID toss my driveshaft across the high school parking lot...
[popcorn] :facepalm: :old:
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Which is testimony to the fact that most younger people can't properly drive a manual transmission. Not even the ones who can use one to make a car go down the road.
To a degree, yes. In this case, though, it's more an issue of huge rotating masses locked firmly together and under extreme stress.
900 lb-ft of torque is, well, a lot. Latched on to a trailer loaded with ten or fifteen tons of stuff there is an extreme amount of pressure on the truck's spinnamathingies. The drive line will likely take the strain if loads remain constant and transient shock loads are limited, something relatively easy to accomplish with an auto tranny and electronic controls. Manual transmission? Not so much. It's hard-locked from piston to tire. With that kind of torque on tap you're just one unanticipated driveline shock away from "boom".
Brad
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Which is testimony to the fact that most younger people can't properly drive a manual transmission. Not even the ones who can use one to make a car go down the road.
I'm 74 years old. I was taught to drive a standard by my grandfather. He taught well, IMHO. On my old '88 Jeep Cherokee, the clutch slave cylinder went out at 204,000 miles. It's internal, so replacing the combination slave cylinder/release bearing meant dropping the transmission and transfer case. At that point it would have been silly not to replace the clutch -- or so I thought. Once it was opened up, there was virtually no difference between the new clutch disk and the old one with 204,000 miles on it. I installed the new one, but I saved the old clutch and I wouldn't hesitate to throw it into a beater that needs a clutch.
On the other hand, I had a classmate in college who went through three clutches in 15,000 miles. :facepalm:
While there certainly are young folks that can't drive let's keep things in perspective. An 88 XJ had a whopping 177hp and 224 ft.lbs of torque. It's not amazing engineering to put a clutch behind that and have it last 150,000-200,000. That's a low stress environment unless you intentionally slip it for traction.
I had the same 10.5" Spec Stage 2 clutch last 75000 miles behind a 500hp/525ft-lp blown V8. That was a little tougher. But to bring it back to Brad's post, the non semi truck clutch and manual that can last 150,000 behind 900ft-lbs of torque doesn't exist. Doesn't matter how gentle you are with the pedal.
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Which is testimony to the fact that most younger people can't properly drive a manual transmission. Not even the ones who can use one to make a car go down the road.
I'm 74 years old. I was taught to drive a standard by my grandfather. He taught well, IMHO. On my old '88 Jeep Cherokee, the clutch slave cylinder went out at 204,000 miles. It's internal, so replacing the combination slave cylinder/release bearing meant dropping the transmission and transfer case. At that point it would have been silly not to replace the clutch -- or so I thought. Once it was opened up, there was virtually no difference between the new clutch disk and the old one with 204,000 miles on it. I installed the new one, but I saved the old clutch and I wouldn't hesitate to throw it into a beater that needs a clutch.
On the other hand, I had a classmate in college who went through three clutches in 15,000 miles. :facepalm:
Damn kids get off my clutch pedal!
It couldn't possibly be that they aren't offering a manual because there's no market for it and they could accomplish much better results with an automatic.
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When I bought my truck in 2010, there was no one at the dealer that could drive a manual transmission.
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There are things they can do with automated or automatic transmissions that even the best drivers can't with a manual. Especially with the big rigs.
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There are things they can do with automated or automatic transmissions that even the best drivers can't with a manual. Especially with the big rigs.
Most people are still stuck in the mindset of the old 2 or 3 speed automatic transmissions of the 50s-80s.
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Most people are still stuck in the mindset of the old 2 or 3 speed automatic transmissions of the 50s-80s.
Starting with about the 2012 models, I noticed that they got automatic transmissions to the point that you have higher expected mileage with them than with manual transmissions. Greater fuel mileage was one of the reasons for manuals to begin with.
In addition, automatics aren't the slushboxes of the past, but these days are more likely to be an "automatic manual", where it is actually a manual gearbox that isn't user shifted, but shifted by relay. This allows them to make the transmissions even smaller, stuff more gears in, and have sophisticated computer programs doing the work.
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In addition, automatics aren't the slushboxes of the past, but these days are more likely to be an "automatic manual", where it is actually a manual gearbox that isn't user shifted, but shifted by relay.
A fair number of performance vehicles and now some big rigs have gone to "automatic manual" transmissions (essentially an old-school manual with an electronically controlled clutch and electric or electro-hydraulic actuators handling the gear levers). Still, most passenger vehicles, including light/medium-duty trucks, continue to rely on a traditionally-configured automatic transmission (torque converter, internal clutch baskets, etc) because they are easier to make work smoothly and seamlessly in a wider range of driving styles. I understand some of the latest-gen autoboxes are hybridized even further with the direct-mesh gearsets of a traditional manual and the torque converter of an automatic, essentially a melding of automatic and manual transmissions. Actually kinda cool when you think about it.
Some European brands like Volkswagen and BMW are integrating more of the DCT-style auto/manual units into their passenger car models. There are definitely some advantages to the configuration but I'm waiting to see what kind of longevity they get in real-world situations before I am too accepting of the change.
Brad
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Starting with about the 2012 models, I noticed that they got automatic transmissions to the point that you have higher expected mileage with them than with manual transmissions. Greater fuel mileage was one of the reasons for manuals to begin with.
Another major reason to get a manual is simplicity. Less complex means fewer things that can go wrong, and cost to repair the transmission is going to be lower.
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Another major reason to get a manual is simplicity. Less complex means fewer things that can go wrong, and cost to repair the transmission is going to be lower.
Then you might as well avoid anything built in the last 20 years. Modern vehicles are anything but simple.
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Another major reason to get a manual is simplicity. Less complex means fewer things that can go wrong, and cost to repair the transmission is going to be lower.
Not sure about the cost, if your car is made with very few manual transmissions, you may not have many options when your manual craps the bed.
By the time you wear out a newer automatic transmission, probably easier to find a wreck and do a swap.
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Another major reason to get a manual is simplicity. Less complex means fewer things that can go wrong, and cost to repair the transmission is going to be lower.
Sometimes, but not all the time. For a worn trans needing simple, basic reconditioning (rub blocks, synchros, bearings/bushings, etc.), yes. Unfortunately when manual transmissions fail under load they tend to do so catastrophically. The resulting broken supporting members, cracked housings, etc., usually render the unit un-rebuildable. This which are rebuildable tend to require a significant investment in parts and labor, negating the overall simplicity aspect.
Then you might as well avoid anything built in the last 20 years. Modern vehicles are anything but simple.
Newer vehicles are more complex for sure, but not necessarily more complicated. Electronic and mechanical things still work the same way, there are just more of them and they are more integrated. I learned heaps more about that after discovering the South Main Auto channel on YoobToob. Eric O. is a fantastic diagnostician, especially on late model electrical systems. He does an excellent job of walking viewers through the process. Sure, he uses some high-dollar diagnostic equipment but it's amazing how much you can do with a simple scope-on-a-rope (test light) and a wiring diagram.
Watching SMA it's also a reminder of how lucky we are out here in the southwest. It's staggering how quickly cars in the Rust Belt degrade due to road salt. I knew it was pretty bad but... damn! :O Around here a decently maintained 10-12 year old vehicle with 150k on the clocks isn't just viable, it's considered a decent buy with lots of life left. There? Rusty crusher fodder. Eric's ability to tease rusty fasteners from their oxidized grave is nothing short of amazing (I think he lives to use Big Nasty, his air hammer).
Brad
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I wouldn't be surprised if whatever current manual transmissions that are still out there are nearly the same cost to repair/replace as current autos.
I have to say the current autos seem pretty damn strong. Also, I learned to drive on a stick and drove a Jeep Comanche with a stick for 14 years. I know how to work a manual transmission, and I don't think I could shift better than my 2016 F-150 does in Sport Mode (or regular mode for that matter). That one is just a six speed. The current crop of F150 transmissions are ten speed.
An analog is, for example, SAR helos. I've seen videos of helos doing SAR in crazy locations where even an AJ Squared Away pilot would likely crash. The autopilot computer though, manages to hold the helo steady where the human couldn't.
Not that manuals can't be fun to drive, but the days of the manual outperforming the auto are pretty much done, IMO - at least for production vehicles.
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Not that manuals can't be fun to drive, but the days of the manual outperforming the auto are pretty much done, IMO - at least for production vehicles.
"John Henry said to his captain,
'Now a man ain't nothing but a man
but before I let that steam drill beat me down
I'm gonna die with my hammer in my hand, Lord, Lord,
I'm gonna die with my hammer in my hand!' "
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64GHrP3bCWk
Sometimes a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do.
Like shift his own gears.
Disclaimer: My second wife often said I was a control freak. My second wife couldn't drive a manual transmission.
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Doesn't John Henry die at the end of that story?
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Doesn't John Henry die at the end of that story?
I believe so.
I would prefer to die as the owner of a Jeep with a manual transmission rather than an automatic.
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I believe so.
I would prefer to die as the owner of a Jeep with a manual transmission rather than an automatic.
I could never own a CJ or Wrangler that was an automatic. Just feels wrong.
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I was recently going through this with cars. Subaru still offers manuals, but only in base trim. Because manual doesn't work with the auto-breaking features. It's a confusopoly.
https://blog.dilbert.com/2016/08/04/the-bait-and-switch-confusopoly-economy/
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(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4841/31169611107_55b3a95811_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Pumps4)
=D
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[img]https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4841/31169611107_55b3a95811_c.jpg
=D
(https://flic.kr/p/Pumps4)
Jackass!
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=D =D =D
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"John Henry said to his captain,
'Now a man ain't nothing but a man
but before I let that steam drill beat me down
I'm gonna die with my hammer in my hand, Lord, Lord,
I'm gonna die with my hammer in my hand!' "
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64GHrP3bCWk
Sometimes a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do.
I like the Smothers Brothers' version better, and it kinda fits: (from memory)
"John Henry said to the captain, (to the captain)
By God, I ain't no fool. (ain't no fool)
Before I die with a hammer in my hand
I'm gonna get me a steam drill too,
Lord, Lord.
Get me a steam drill too!"
ETA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FuC5-vmgRs
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Big rigs have pretty much only used automated manuals when not a full blown manual. They tried automatic transmissions but the torque converters can't handle the torque, at least not for 1mil miles.
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I have to laugh at all the “a manual transmission is the best transmission” talk. I wonder if you people who think that also prefer revolvers over semi-autos, iron sights over telescopic or red-dots, rotary phones over cell phones, and mud huts over modern houses.
I get it. There is some satisfaction in “rowing your own gears,” but modern automatics are better in most categories.
Just wait until all cars are electric and there are no transmissions. Your heads will explode. :O
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I have to laugh at all the “a manual transmission is the best transmission” talk. I wonder if you people who think that also prefer revolvers over semi-autos, iron sights over telescopic or red-dots, rotary phones over cell phones, and mud huts over modern houses.
I get it. There is some satisfaction in “rowing your own gears,” but modern automatics are better in most categories.
Just wait until all cars are electric and there are no transmissions. Your heads will explode. :O
I'll probably still be driving my 1988 Jeep Cherokee 5-speed.
I'll bet you're one o' them modurn pilots who even uses that autopilot thingie, right?
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I have to laugh at all the “a manual transmission is the best transmission” talk. I wonder if you people who think that also prefer revolvers over semi-autos, iron sights over telescopic or red-dots, rotary phones over cell phones, and mud huts over modern houses.
I get it. There is some satisfaction in “rowing your own gears,” but modern automatics are better in most categories.
Just wait until all cars are electric and there are no transmissions. Your heads will explode. :O
If you have a manual you are driving. If you have an automatic, you are just steering. Having said that, this past summer when Charby and I went to Utah for Operation Godfather, we rented a Mustang that had a 10 speed automatic. It had the flappy paddle shifters, which gives one some choice and control, however, it pissed me off on occasion, simply because it thought it knew better then me what gear I wanted to be in.
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If you have a manual you are driving. If you have an automatic, you are just steering.
That's adorable. Come down and ride right seat the next time I do a track day in my 335 and see if you still think that.
Look, I get it, some folks like manuals. Hell I like manuals. If I ever talk the budget committee into letting me get the TR-3 or MG I want, it'll have a stick. Were I to get a classic 'Stang, I'd look for a 4-speed, because, like my SMLE or Garand, sometimes the old stuff is fun, and it's part of the experience. It's just that, also like my SMLE and Garand, the modern stuff, with the benefits of design evolution is better in pretty much any quantifiable way.* Honestly, as someone that's rebuilt a bunch of both kinds of transmissions, the manuals may have a lower parts count, but they are more of a pain to rebuild.
Hawk should absolutely buy the transmission he wants. $40k is a lot of money to spend on something you are "meh" on. I just think it's funny that he is looking for the obsolete, worse tech. FWIW he's not alone. I just had to cancel my Dad's Christmas present because I noticed at the last minute what I wanted to get hi has a free app to control it, and he still refuses to get a smart phone. So load your Garand, drive your CJ, and tell the kids to get off your lawn. We'll just post some good natured ribbing from our smartphones as our car shifts itself, has more horsepower, and is smoother and faster.
FWIW, Were I in the market for a new truck (I'm not, my F150 has 10 years left in it) I would go for the Ranger over the Taco or Frontier because I'd rather have the more powerful and efficient engine than the manual. A truck is not likely to Rally or be in a drift competition where locking it into a gear would be handy, but it is likely to pull things or need the extra torque the Eco-Boost provides.
*It should be noted here that there are transmissions and then there are transmissions. In much the way that the manual in an 82 Escort is not the same to drive as an 82 911, the automatic in a Fusion is not the same as the automatic in an M5. One of the reasons I bought a 3 series over it's competitors in the sport sedan market is the engine and the ZF 8-speed are awesomely engineered and pretty perfectly programmed. I could have gotten a car that was cheaper, or one that was more reliable, or even a bit faster, but this very issue (driver engagement with the powertrain) pushed me to the one I got. Don't buy the Escort.
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Like I said, I liked, for the most part, the 10 speed auto in the Mustang. We got great gas mileage and it was smooth ride. I also understand that in modern more powerful trucks, a manual is not practical and the auto doing a much better job of transferring torque and power to the wheels.
However, I drive a Subaru Outback. I like the 6 speed manual, except for the 5th gear. In it, I'm driving, especially here in Chicago traffic. I've driven manuals since 1983 (except for 4 years I had a Saab 900 with an Auto trans...bleh.)
Which is another thing I miss....that turbocharger....sigh...
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I'm driving, especially here in Chicago traffic.
There's the main reason I gave up on manuals. I got sick of driving in stop and go traffic with them. Had I been living in a more rural area at the time, I likely would have held out longer. Autos in the '90s weren't great like they are now, but they were convenient.