Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: makattak on December 20, 2019, 09:04:28 AM
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https://www.foxnews.com/us/iowa-lgbtq-flag-fire-church-prison
If it's an LGBTQRSTUVWXYZ Flag.
Gee, I thought flag burning was an act of free speech....
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Unless there's a lot more to this story, that's a ridiculous sentence, especially having observed the degradation the US flag has been dragged through.
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This is why "hate crimes" are bullshit. It's not worse because he holds unpopular views.
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Let's compare the results of this trial ↑, done against no specific person to the results of this arrest ↓:
https://kjzz.com/news/local/exclusive-wwii-veterans-flag-barbecued-by-angry-ex-boyfriend-wyoming-family-says
Man stole his ex-wife (ex-girlfriend's?) flag from her father's coffin and burned it. Videoing it in order to taunt them.
I'm going to be he gets a LOT less than 15 years.
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The guy stole something of minor value, possibly made threats, and set the flag on fire outside an occupied business. Definitely worthy of criminal penalties, but 16 years seems excessive.
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People have gotten way less for murder
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People have gotten way less for murder
Oh yes!
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I've got a far bigger problem with the theft of the property to be burned, than the burning of that object as a statement.
Buy your own rainbow flag if you want to burn it.
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I've got a far bigger problem with the theft
And again, given the info provided, theft/property destruction should have been the punishment. What's the usual punishment (for what appears to be a first offense) for stealing a $20 item?
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And again, given the info provided, theft/property destruction should have been the punishment. What's the usual punishment (for what appears to be a first offense) for stealing a $20 item?
From the Des Moines Register (which I sadly clicked because I no longer wish to give them even that much revenue from a single click), the perpetrator here had a record (two previous felonies), so the number of years in prison were apparently tripled. A first time offender would have only gotten 6 years. Which also seems rather much.
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From the Des Moines Register (which I sadly clicked because I no longer wish to give them even that much revenue from a single click), the perpetrator here had a record (two previous felonies), so the number of years in prison were apparently tripled. A first time offender would have only gotten 6 years. Which also seems rather much.
Okay, in that case pokey time is possibly appropriate* because he's a knucklehead. But even then, 15 years is pretty outrageous.
* Wearing my IANAL hat, I would think a first offense would be restitution and probation or picking up trash for a few weekends or something. So I wonder, as a "hate crime" what the punishment would have been for someone with no previous criminal record? I agree with Dogmush that "hate crimes" are bullshit. My thought has always been, what about the 'non-protected" person who was hurt/assaulted/murdered? "Hate crime" penalties have always seemed to me to be an "FU" to them.
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This is why "hate crimes" are bullshit. It's not worse because he holds unpopular views.
Because Hate Murder is far worst than Like Murder
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Is arson even an appropriate charge in a case like this? I thought that normally applied to structures.
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The burning of an LGBTQEIEIO flag should have ONLY been charged as petty theft (it wasn't his flag) and (perhaps) something related to careless setting of a fire. Even with a prior record, 15 years seems unconstitutionally excessive.
As a juror, I would NEVER convict someone of a "hate crime" - it's just too Orwellian for me. And it's not necessary. Consider the 1998 case of James Byrd, a black man murdered in Texas by being dragged behind a pickup. Texas caught the 3 people involved, charged them, tried them, and convicted them of murder.
One of the perps is in protective custody spending 23 hours a day in an 8' x 6' prison cell and won't get a parole hearing until 2038. (Unlikely a parole board will release him.) The other two have been executed. This was done WITHOUT any "hate crime" charges.
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I can see grounds for considering it arson, and/or assault, if the flag was set fire to in a way that it could cause another structure to also burn (while being wary of prosecutorial manufacturing of mountains from molehills). Also, if it was burned in effigy, perhaps draped as a cloak over a likeness of a particular person or stereotype of a type of people.
If text accompanied that said "all gays deserve burning" or similar while being done in front of a gay support group or deliberately gay function, I could see it being interpreted as assault even without arson.
Burning the flag alone, on a driveway or similar noncombustible surface, and without theft, it's just an act of speech. To me at least. It reads more as a strike against special interest politics, than an act of aggression.
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I never thought I'd see the day where its a serious crime to burn a meme flag.
Theft, yes. Arson, maybe...
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So those who display the rainbow flag are going all-out civil disobedience in defense of this non-conformist, right?
I'll just sit back and wait to hear about those Stonewall-style riots.
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I can see grounds for considering it arson, and/or assault, if the flag was set fire to in a way that it could cause another structure to also burn (while being wary of prosecutorial manufacturing of mountains from molehills). Also, if it was burned in effigy, perhaps draped as a cloak over a likeness of a particular person or stereotype of a type of people.
If text accompanied that said "all gays deserve burning" or similar while being done in front of a gay support group or deliberately gay function, I could see it being interpreted as assault even without arson.
Burning the flag alone, on a driveway or similar noncombustible surface, and without theft, it's just an act of speech. To me at least. It reads more as a strike against special interest politics, than an act of aggression.
Free speech grounds should be part of his appeal.