Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Hawkmoon on March 15, 2020, 01:44:34 AM
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I'm prepping an old desktop computer to sell. Hard drive has been scrubbed of all files with anything relating to me (used a DoD-compliant wipe program), Windows has been updated to release 1909. I don't want to use any of my Microsoft Office licenses, so I installed a freeware office suite called (cleverly) FreeOffice. It's actually a very nice suite and it gets good reviews. Where it falls flat on its Teutonic face (it's from Germany) is that it doesn't include a database. Not even a flat file database. (They claim that functionality is built into the word processor, but at best that's not much more than a rudimentary address book.)
There are usually any number of good to excellent freeware options to paid, commercial software. Database seems to be an exception. I could use Libre Office, which includes Base, but Libre Office still uses a traditional menu structure (that's a plus for me, but probably not for younger people who learned with the Microsoft ribbon menu. FreeOffice allows the user to have whichever he/she/it prefers.)
Is there anything out there that anyone is aware of?
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You are overthinking this. Let the buyer pick their own software.
The people who will use a database will probably appreciate less bloat because what you pick likely isn’t going to be what they want to use. The people who want all the software preinstalled probably won’t ever use it.
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You are overthinking this. Let the buyer pick their own software.
The people who will use a database will probably appreciate less bloat because what you pick likely isn’t going to be what they want to use. The people who want all the software preinstalled probably won’t ever use it.
Yup, what he said. Unless you're including progs that the new owner would otherwise have had to pay hundreds of dollars for, just sell it with the OS and let them pick their own freeware or buy the progs they want.
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"Me too me to!"
I agree with cordex. Don't worry about a database. Most people don't need and couldn't use one. Those that do can install their own.
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Lotus Symphony is free, but I agree that just a clean install of the OS is a better idea.
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Around this neck of the woods, people who are buying old computers seem to want something that's ready to go. They don't want to buy or find software, they want it pre-installed. I don't think a bare operating system would be a selling point, it would be a liability.
I didn't know that Symphony even existed any more. That's one to look into. Last night, after much searching, I stumbled on one that looks promising: https://runabase.com/
[Edit to add]Looks like Symphony doesn't include a database.
https://ibm-lotus-symphony.en.softonic.com/
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LibreOffice
https://www.libreoffice.org/
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LibreOffice
https://www.libreoffice.org/
If I read the Wikipedia article right, you may as well be getting Libre.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Lotus_Symphony (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Lotus_Symphony)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fb/StarOffice_major_derivatives.svg/1100px-StarOffice_major_derivatives.svg.png)
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LibreOffice
https://www.libreoffice.org/
Already considered ...
I could use Libre Office, which includes Base, but Libre Office still uses a traditional menu structure (that's a plus for me, but probably not for younger people who learned with the Microsoft ribbon menu. FreeOffice allows the user to have whichever he/she/it prefers.)
Yes, I could use Libre Office. I would prefer to use SoftMaker FreeOffice, with something added as a database. I tried to install just Base out of Libre Office but, unlike Microsoft Office, they don't allow you to install only selected modules. The corker is that SoftMaker used to offer a database, but they dropped it a few years ago.
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Anyone that actually gives a crap about a database is going to have their own preferences.
MySQL or MariaDB or PostgreSQL are decent free relational DB engines, and you can use Toad as a management UI and SQL interpreter or load app. You can also install Microsoft's SQLExpress engine (or SQL Server Developer Edition for that matter) and SQL Management Studio for free, and most Office suites can make calls to that. Anyone that actually needs a database (as opposed to a multi-sheet spreadsheet document) will be looking that direction anyways.
Desktop "databases" are utter trash though. Leave it at an XML-compatible spreadsheet application and call it good.
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I thought Symphony had a database, but they must have removed it -- probably the same time they removed importing Lotus Word Pro documents. I think I would still install Symphony, Chrome, Firefox, VLC media player, and Adobe Acrobat Reader, and call it good. Anyone actually using a database will want their own, like maybe MySQL.
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You can also install Microsoft's SQLExpress engine (or SQL Server Developer Edition for that matter) and SQL Management Studio for free, a
There you go, Hawkmoon. Express is free, and Joe User is unlikely to hit the limits of Express.
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There you go, Hawkmoon. Express is free, and Joe User is unlikely to hit the limits of Express.
But Microsoft SQL Server Management Studio doesn't have the ribbon menu ...
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The kind of people who are going to buy a 15+ year old computer are not people who want or need MySQL -- or who even know what it is. This was a business-grade computer when I bought it, but that was a very long time ago. The likely market is either elderly folks (ouch, how it hurts to type that), or a family on a very tight budget who can't afford something new. I expect their database needs would be on the order of an address book, a Christmas card list, maybe some sort of home inventory. Nothing business-related or "enterprise-grade."
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That sounds like you want Microsoft Works.
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The kind of people who are going to buy a 15+ year old computer are not people who want or need MySQL -- or who even know what it is. This was a business-grade computer when I bought it, but that was a very long time ago. The likely market is either elderly folks (ouch, how it hurts to type that), or a family on a very tight budget who can't afford something new. I expect their database needs would be on the order of an address book, a Christmas card list, maybe some sort of home inventory. Nothing business-related or "enterprise-grade."
Elderly? They must be 1000 years old if they plan on using a database prg as an address book. :lol:
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"I expect their database needs would be on the order of an address book, a Christmas card list, maybe some sort of home inventory. Nothing business-related or "enterprise-grade."
Yeah... that's where an Excel-type spreadsheet would shine.
None of the learning curve of an actual database type program and more than flexible enough for any of those applications.
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"I expect their database needs would be on the order of an address book, a Christmas card list, maybe some sort of home inventory. Nothing business-related or "enterprise-grade."
Yeah... that's where an Excel-type spreadsheet would shine.
None of the learning curve of an actual database type program and more than flexible enough for any of those applications.
Yes. My non-snarky response is all those things can be done in Excel, Word, or the LibreOffice equivalents, including mailing label or envelope printing, and much more easily and intuitively than in a full blown database. Or there are a bajillion freeware prgs that will do that stuff for you. Not to mention the Gazoogles and smart phones.
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That sounds like you want Microsoft Works.
Which is long gone. *
"Office 2010 Starter Edition" replaced it in bundled software category, and that didn't last very long either.
---edit to add---
*and didn't have the "ribbon interface", which, I gather, is something MS patented. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ribbon_(computing)#Patent_controversy)
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Which is long gone.
"Office 2010 Starter Edition" replaced it in bundled software category, and that didn't last very long either.
I think Works is still available for free download at places like CNET.
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I think Works is still available for free download at places like CNET.
Euuu! No.
Just die, MS Works. Proprietary default format, no real reason for its continued existence, with better free alternatives available.
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I don't get the positive reviews the Ribbon interface has for some people.
It takes up more room, reduces the number of options you have on screen, and hides lots of options from conventional access. It's every bit as awful as the smart/adaptive start menu that was introduced in Win98 and the evolution to a double-tier start menu in XP. Bigger fonts and pictures that bias functionality or applications.
I use MS Office on my work computer because our company's product integrates with it, but on my personal computers I favor LibreOffice.
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View -> User Interface -> Tabbed
In LibreOffice to switch to a ribbon type menu
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I don't get the positive reviews the Ribbon interface has for some people.
I agree completely. I keep Office 2003 on my computers, along with Office 2010, 2013, or 2016 (some of each -- I have too many notebook computers to buy multiple licenses for, so I keep using the old family packs of Office 2010 Home & Student). I hate the ribbon interface. I can't find anything.
I also didn't know that Libre Office offers it as an option. The reason I want the ribbon available on the machine I'm gearing up to sell is that some people may want it. I've read numerous reviews of various programs in which the reviewers complain when a program has an "antiguated" (conventional) menu system.
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View -> User Interface -> Tabbed
In LibreOffice to switch to a ribbon type menu
Not an option in release 6.1.6.3, which I believe is the most recent stable version. Are you in the power user channel?
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Euuu! No.
Just die, MS Works. Proprietary default format, no real reason for its continued existence, with better free alternatives available.
Mrs. Z had a laptop with MS Works. The proprietary formats was the one thing I hated about it. If I could change the defaults to something like Office 97 or RTF or HTML (etc), which I think it supported under the Save As button, it would have been fine. She always saved using the defaults, of course.
I use Office 97 on my personal PC's (redundancy alert!) My work PC's have Office 2016 and/or 365 and I don't like the ribbon interface. Wife has an Office 2010 license but she lost the keys a long time ago, so she has 97 now and I doubt she can tell the difference anyway. It works just fine with Windows 10. IIRC there is one piece you shouldn't install, I think it's the HTML editor, and I don't remember why.
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You are overthinking this. Let the buyer pick their own software.
The people who will use a database will probably appreciate less bloat because what you pick likely isn’t going to be what they want to use. The people who want all the software preinstalled probably won’t ever use it.
Cordex (and everyone else) nailed it. Average users buying a cheap used rig want a word processor and maybe a spreadsheet. Advanced IT folks will do their own thing, and probably start with blowing away the whole OS.
And the very fringe usecase of "grandma who took computer classes in the 80's and wants to mail merge?" Yea, she's going to be frustrated that there's no slot for the disks with her databases files from her amiga.
Personal opinion: Have you received a request for this from a potential buyer? If not, don't spend anymore time or energy trying to solve for a problem that hasn't materialized, and is very unlikely to.
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Not an option in release 6.1.6.3, which I believe is the most recent stable version. Are you in the power user channel?
Nope
Latest stable ver on their website is 6.3.5 https://www.libreoffice.org/download/download/
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Mrs. Z had a laptop with MS Works. The proprietary formats was the one thing I hated about it. If I could change the defaults to something like Office 97 or RTF or HTML (etc), which I think it supported under the Save As button, it would have been fine. She always saved using the defaults, of course.
I just checked, LibreOffice will open Works docs
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Personal opinion: Have you received a request for this from a potential buyer? If not, don't spend anymore time or energy trying to solve for a problem that hasn't materialized, and is very unlikely to.
No requests with respect to this computer. I'm extrapolating from what I encountered a year or so ago when I sold a couple of laptops.
If Libre Office now offers an option for a ribbon menu (ugh!), that solves the problem. Base is a half decent database, and it's easy to use (easier, IMHO, than Access, although it's not as easy to design clean forms in Base).
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Nope
Latest stable ver on their website is 6.3.5 https://www.libreoffice.org/download/download/
I just updated to 6.3.5.2 on my desktop computer. I still don't see an option for tabbed, ribbon-style menus.
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No requests with respect to this computer. I'm extrapolating from what I encountered a year or so ago when I sold a couple of laptops.
If Libre Office now offers an option for a ribbon menu (ugh!), that solves the problem. Base is a half decent database, and it's easy to use (easier, IMHO, than Access, although it's not as easy to design clean forms in Base).
Wow, I wouldn't have through that would be something folks would ask for.
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The time you've spent loading OS and freeware is worth more than the value you're getting from the used hardware. OS + Firefox + LibreOffice and that's plenty for anyone to put a used PC to work to do whatever they want.
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I just updated to 6.3.5.2 on my desktop computer. I still don't see an option for tabbed, ribbon-style menus.
Odd. Very odd.
Were you in the base menu or actually in one of the apps? You need to be in one of the apps like writer then View --> User Interface --> Tabbed
Works in mine.
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Works on my laptop too
ver 6.2.8
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No requests with respect to this computer. I'm extrapolating from what I encountered a year or so ago when I sold a couple of laptops.
I'm curious. What did you see when you sold laptops previously? Particularly that would indicate database software is a selling point.
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I'm curious. What did you see when you sold laptops previously? Particularly that would indicate database software is a selling point.
What I saw was people calling about the computers, and not even being interested in looking at them if they didn't have a "complete" office suite installed. I concede that most of them didn't even know what a database program is ... but someone told them that they needed something with a "complete" office suite, so that's what they were looking for. Oh, and isn't $100 a bit too much for an old computer? Would you take $50?
Back to Libre Office and the ribbon. Here's a screen shot from Writer 6.3.5.2
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.armedpolitesociety.com%2Findex.php%3Faction%3Ddlattach%3Btopic%3D62007.0%3Battach%3D3545%3Bimage&hash=146ca7dff0fdad3b35585703b6b905673d8191c6)
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I said
VIEW --> User Interface --> Tabbed
You're doing
Tools --> Options --> View
Different menu
Click on the word view on the toolbar, it's on the upper left of your screenshot
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What I saw was people calling about the computers, and not even being interested in looking at them if they didn't have a "complete" office suite installed. I concede that most of them didn't even know what a database program is ... but someone told them that they needed something with a "complete" office suite, so that's what they were looking for.
The same folks that think MS Office comes free with computers. If they want the real MS Office ribbon interface, and a database, they want Office Pro. Which costs.
Oh, and isn't $100 a bit too much for an old computer? Would you take $50?
Judgment call, and why we don't put too much time and effort into prepping older pcs. Honestly, the hardware very well might not be worth $100 when they could go to wally world and get a sucky low end laptop for $250(ish).
Minimal effort way to prep a computer to "re-home": Wipe, reinstall Windows. Update to current (here's where Win 10 is much better than prior versions). Go to ninite.com (https://ninite.com/), tag off Chrome & Firefox, VLC, and Libre Office, and download that installer. Run it. Maybe put one of the free antivirus programs on. Done. Put no more effort into it. They don't like libre, tough. Unless they are paying me to do it, tough. they can install what they want themselves.
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I said
VIEW --> User Interface --> Tabbed
You're doing
Tools --> Options --> View
Different menu
Click on the word view on the toolbar, it's on the upper left of your screenshot
Yes, I know. And there was nothing on there about "User Interface," which is why I went into Tools --> Options. Here's the screen shot from the menu you're talking about:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.armedpolitesociety.com%2Findex.php%3Faction%3Ddlattach%3Btopic%3D62007.0%3Battach%3D3547%3Bimage&hash=6bbb9131d4112ef5f71dfb615c751992899e94cd)
I don't see "User Interface."
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Odd, shows up on all my computers.
Anyone else seeing it or not?
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Minimal effort way to prep a computer to "re-home": Wipe, reinstall Windows. Update to current (here's where Win 10 is much better than prior versions). Go to ninite.com (https://ninite.com/), tag off Chrome & Firefox, VLC, and Libre Office, and download that installer. Run it. Maybe put one of the free antivirus programs on. Done. Put no more effort into it. They don't like libre, tough. Unless they are paying me to do it, tough. they can install what they want themselves.
I'd never heard of ninite before but it looks awesome. Thanks. I'll have to try it if/when I get home (I have 2 spare computers set up just for configuration and install testing, doing World Community Grid workloads in the meantime)
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Mine
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https://libreofficehelp.com/change-libreoffice-default-look-and-feel/
Open LibreOffice.
Go to menu Tools > Options. Under Advanced, select Enable Experimental Features.
Go to menu View > User Interface.
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https://libreofficehelp.com/change-libreoffice-default-look-and-feel/
Open LibreOffice.
Go to menu Tools > Options. Under Advanced, select Enable Experimental Features.
Go to menu View > User Interface.
Never did that in any of mine and yet it comes up.
Welcome to computers folks, they don't have to make sense.
Edit: Just checked, experimental features is turned off on mine.
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I just turned on Experimental Features, restarted Libre Office, and I still don't see a menu choice for User Interface. I'm now on version 6.3.5.2. What version are you on? Are you running it in Windows, iOS, or Linux?
And I have now turned Experimental Features off again. If I wanted to run a potentially unstable version, I would download the latest, greatest power user version.
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I just turned on Experimental Features, restarted Libre Office, and I still don't see a menu choice for User Interface. I'm now on version 6.3.5.2. What version are you on? Are you running it in Windows, iOS, or Linux?
And I have now turned Experimental Features off again. If I wanted to run a potentially unstable version, I would download the latest, greatest power user version.
Same version
Windows 64bit
Did you download the windows 64 bit version or maybe the 32bit? Don't know if that would have anything to do with it but I thought I would ask.
Edit: Just checked a laptop running Linux Mint and LO is missing the tabbed menu option just like your screen shots
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I'm using the 64-bit version.
I checked with a friend who uses Libre Office as his default office suite. (No Microsoft Office for him.) He has the option to switch to the ribbon interface. He didn't know he had it until I asked him about it so, of course, he had to try it. Now he wants to kill me. He sent me a screen shot. If the Microsoft ribbon is bad, Libre Office's rendition is a thousand times worse. He sent me a screen shot. It's ugly, and not just from an aesthetics perspective.
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The version current in my Debian* Linux install is 6.1.5.2, and does not have the option.
Boot the Windows side, it's 6.4.2.2, and does have the ribbon interface option.
----edit to add---
* Debian Stable, not not necessarily tracking the absolute latest version.
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The version current in my Debian Linux install is 6.1.5.2, and does not have the option.
Boot the Windows side, it's 6.4.2.2, and does have the ribbon interface option.
According to the Libre Office web site, the current version 6.4.2 "If you're a technology enthusiast, early adopter or power user, this version is for you!"
Below that is version 6.3.5: "This version is slightly older and does not have the latest features, but it has been tested for longer."
I'm certainly not a power user, and I'm also not a computer whiz so I always opt for stability over bells and whistles. So I have version 6.3.5. But that's what my friend has, and he's also on Windows 10 -- and he has the User Interface option, and I don't. Does it make a difference that he's in Europe?
Here's what the Libre Office ribbon menu looks like (courtesy of my friend):
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I'm bringing this discussion back just for a postmortem of sorts on the original question, which was about free, entry-level database programs. I didn't find any when I was looking for one, and I ultimately gave the two old notebooks to the assistant pastor at my church to pass along to some family that needed a computer and couldn't afford one. The newer one had Libre Office on it. I was concerned that the older one, although I updated it from XO to Windows 10, would struggle with Libre Office, so I put SoftMaker FreeOffice suite on that one.
Naturally, now that I don't need one, I found one -- actually, more than one. A couple of them seem to be half decent and would have been just what I was looking for -- if only I had found them in time.
http://www.alexnolan.net/software/dbf.htm
https://en.freedownloadmanager.org/Windows-PC/Symphytum-FREE.html
https://www.dcmembers.com/skwire/download/snap-db/
https://www.ssuiteoffice.com/categories/database.htm
Oh, well. "Timing is everything."
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Didja look into any of the free SQL(ish) ones a lot of web builders use?
https://www.guru99.com/free-database-software.html
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Didja look into any of the free SQL(ish) ones a lot of web builders use?
https://www.guru99.com/free-database-software.html
Yes, and no. That would require knowing something about SQL, which I don't. I looked at a couple of them, briefly ... my eyes glazed over and my brain froze. And I highly doubt the people who get my okd computers would know anything about it, or care to learn. I was looking for simple databases with intuitive front ends.
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Yes, and no. That would require knowing something about SQL, which I don't. I looked at a couple of them, briefly ... my eyes glazed over and my brain froze. And I highly doubt the people who get my okd computers would know anything about it, or care to learn. I was looking for simple databases with intuitive front ends.
If they are sophisticated enough users to need a spreadsheet or database, they can probably find their own. (did I mention Lotus Symphony last time around? It's free for download from IBM)
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If they are sophisticated enough users to need a spreadsheet or database, they can probably find their own. (did I mention Lotus Symphony last time around? It's free for download from IBM)
I looked for Symphony, because I really REALLY wanted to try Approach. Something didn't work -- either I wasn't able to find a copy to download, or it wouldn't install.
{Edit} Found it. I did download it -- the copy I found doesn't include Approach.
{Edit_2} Downloaded another copy, which does include Approach. It won't install. At the start of the process, it warns that the software has a known compatiblity issue with this version of Windows (I'm on Win 10, release 20H2). I tried to install anyway.
"Error 2709. Offline join completion information was not found."