Post by: Brad Johnson on March 03, 2007, 01:00:07 PM
One thing I've noticed with their last three offerings is the ever-more-complex layering of visual references and story levels. I suppose it is a natural progression given their evolving cinematic sophistication. I think it actually began with Jesse's Song sung by Sarah McLachlan in Toy Story 2. I remember the emotional impact being both immediate and intense, so much so that it took me a while to go a see it again for fear of breaking down in the theater. No guy wants to admit that a mere song will reduce him to tears. Still does, by the way, every time I watch it.
I really began noticing the growing complexity with Nemo which, in all honesty, I found entertaining but not overtly "Great!" on my first viewing. However, many viewings later I find myself thoroughly immersed in the world it creates. Even though I've probably seen it, oh, forty or fifty times, I still pull the DVD out on occasion, usually picking up yet another little aspect I didn't see before. The same went for Incredibles, which I've watched so often I could probably recite it from memory.
Cars, however, brings that layering and complexity to a whole new level, at least for me. The premise appeals in a very personal way having watched my small home town slowly wither away over the last 40 years, and having each and every character remind me of people I still call close friends. Heck, some I even call family.
I find a special connection in the Brad Paisley song "Find Yourself", the lyrics being poignantly familiar - "When you find yourself, in some far off place, and it causes you, to rethink some things...". Seven years of a rotten marriage ending in a nasty divorce took it's toll on me both physically and emotionally. The best description I have for my condition at the time was 'soulless shell'. I was about as bottomed-out as you can get. Not suicide-bottom, mind you, just turned inward to the point that I didn't give a crap. I have pictures of myself from those years and it's like staring into the lifeless eyes of a mannequin. I went through the motions of life without really paying attention. I was on autopilot. Then one day something happened that caused me to stop and blink. And I mean 'blink' in the literal sense - like a zoned-out druggy who been thumped squarely between the eyes, flinch and all. It was akin to a veil being pulled aside, revealing the world behind it. It did a lot of rethinking that day, and in the many years since. The words of the song mean a lot to me because, well... because I've been there.
I find myself watching the movie constantly, usually when I'm up late at night and the only thing on TV is Discovery Channel reruns. That time when all is quiet and I don't have to worry about the phone ringing or a neighbor stopping by to chat. Just me and the cats curled up in the easy chair. I kick on the movie and let my mind wander, drinking in all the subtle essence woven into the background of the visuals and, more important to me, the story.
Strangely enough I didn't watch the behind-the-scenes until I'd see the movie at least a dozen times. I say "strangely enough" because that's normally the first thing I watch. For some odd reason I didn't with Cars. Flat didn't think about it until late one night when I couldn't sleep. The little "Inspiration for Cars" short isn't much, about fifteen minutes if memory serves, but watching it gave the movie an entirely new and even more personal meaning. I found myself openly weeping after watching it, thinking about my own family and my old friends, all struggling to maintain a sense of community in a town the rest of the world has simply written off and forgotten. Subtleties within the movie that had been noticed but not noted suddenly gained visceral impact, and I found levels within levels I didn't even realize existed. Every time I watch it I discover more.
Why am I posting this? Dunno. It's quiet here today and gave me some time to be introspective. A bit of soul-baring is good for the disposition, I suppose. Helps clear the windshield and fill the tank, metaphorically speaking.
Brad
Post by: Perd Hapley on March 03, 2007, 04:09:17 PM
They might cry over the death of Spock in Episode II, like I did. That's different.
Post by: Manedwolf on March 03, 2007, 04:51:29 PM
Brad, let me see if I can put this diplomatically. Know how you want to be a Great Man? Great men don't blubber over cartoon movies about cute talking cars.
They might cry over the death of Spock in Episode II, like I did. That's different.
They might cry over the death of Spock in Episode II, like I did. That's different.
I think animated NASCAR is still more manly than Star Trek.
And Cars did have a really nice "fading Americana" subtext to it.
Post by: zahc on March 03, 2007, 06:18:42 PM
Post by: crt360 on March 03, 2007, 08:22:28 PM
They might cry over the death of Spock in Episode II, like I did. That's different.
Spock died?
Post by: AJ Dual on March 03, 2007, 08:29:48 PM
Although the movie really does work in a strange way. For Americans, when out in public, we sort of are our cars. They're the public face we show the world as we go about our business on the roads.
Post by: grislyatoms on March 04, 2007, 06:39:43 AM
My favorite is probably "The Incredibles".
"I'm just happy they were willing to be so un-PC as to paint the "ricers" as a bunch of juvenile delinquents." That was great, wasn't it?
"I'm still waiting for the masses to tire of anthropomorphism" You'll be waiting a long time.
Post by: RocketMan on March 04, 2007, 07:22:56 AM
I wonder if a studio could make new Looney Tunes cartoons in CGA in todays PC environment? Could they get away with it? Would that be cool, or what!
Post by: Sergeant Bob on March 04, 2007, 08:06:01 AM
They might cry over the death of Spock in Episode II, like I did. That's different.
Spock died?
Post by: Manedwolf on March 04, 2007, 08:33:20 AM
The "Ice Age" movies were fun, along with "Antz" and "Monsters, Inc." There are a bunch of good CGA cartoons these days.
I wonder if a studio could make new Looney Tunes cartoons in CGA in todays PC environment? Could they get away with it? Would that be cool, or what!
I wonder if a studio could make new Looney Tunes cartoons in CGA in todays PC environment? Could they get away with it? Would that be cool, or what!
Two words.
Space Jam.
Warner is the definition of cheap whoring of their properties.
Post by: Perd Hapley on March 04, 2007, 09:35:11 AM
I'm still waiting for the masses to tire of anthropomorphism, and american companies to put out serious animated movies. Perhaps I'm a fan of The Incredibles because it features human characters. I'm forced to look to japan for my modern animation.
I'm not sure why, but I really hate the anime phenomenon. I'm sure there's some out there I would like, but overall, I don't see much good animated stuff coming out of Japan.
Post by: zahc on March 04, 2007, 09:46:10 AM
Post by: Matthew Carberry on March 04, 2007, 09:47:21 AM
I'm still waiting for the masses to tire of anthropomorphism, and american companies to put out serious animated movies. Perhaps I'm a fan of The Incredibles because it features human characters. I'm forced to look to japan for my modern animation.
I'm not sure why, but I really hate the anime phenomenon. I'm sure there's some out there I would like, but overall, I don't see much good animated stuff coming out of Japan.
The problem is, you just don't "get it". The tentacles, the androgeny, the rape...
Post by: Manedwolf on March 04, 2007, 09:53:50 AM
I'm still waiting for the masses to tire of anthropomorphism, and american companies to put out serious animated movies. Perhaps I'm a fan of The Incredibles because it features human characters. I'm forced to look to japan for my modern animation.
I'm not sure why, but I really hate the anime phenomenon. I'm sure there's some out there I would like, but overall, I don't see much good animated stuff coming out of Japan.
The problem is, you just don't "get it". The tentacles, the androgeny, the rape...
I have not seen any of that sort of thing in the works of Haiyo Miyazaki.
Spirited Away, Howl's Moving Castle, Kiki's Delivery Service, Castle in the Sky, and Princess Mononoke? Films that are FILMS, and actually slow the hell down to let you admire the artistry? He's also done an adaptation of the EarthSea books that'll be out soon.
Or, let's see, the Ghost in the Shell Stand Alone Complex series, a superb ensemble police drama set in a futuristic dystopia? The last part of the second season had some of the best suspense, political games and international nuclear brinkmanship I've ever seen, with UN weapons inspectors being used as pawns in a plot to deal with a refugee area, and a truly scary first-hand view of what a Tomahawk missile attack on an urban area would look like, if you were in the urban area watching the things go by to hit their targets. Plus an incredible scene of "This is how wars start", with a standoff on a bridge, and one overeager protestor firing the first shot from a now "old" HK rifle at the position-holding troops.
There's a lot of good stuff, if you look.
Post by: zahc on March 04, 2007, 09:56:20 AM
Post by: Matthew Carberry on March 04, 2007, 10:09:41 AM
But, remember, the stuff we see coming out of Japan is, in many cases, the cream of the crop in terms of quality and accessibility. Sturgeon's Law is equally valid in kanji.
It is no more just nor correct to point to that 10% and use it to bolster a claim that Japanimation is "better" than American than to do the reverse in terms of, say, pop music.
Post by: MechAg94 on March 04, 2007, 10:24:34 AM
Personally, I think animation works better when it has a bit of unreality to it like the SciFi or talking animals. When it gets too real life, it is just creepy.
Post by: Manedwolf on March 04, 2007, 10:45:25 AM
I liked the old Robotech stuff, but that was more liking the SciFi rather than the cartoon itself. I read the books also. Personally, I think animation works better when it has a bit of unreality to it like the SciFi or talking animals. When it gets too real life, it is just creepy.
Personally, I think animation works better when it has a bit of unreality to it like the SciFi or talking animals. When it gets too real life, it is just creepy. Now, I considered that series to be badly drawn and horrible, but what you're talking about as a real phenomenon. It's call the Uncanny Valley by animators.
It refers to a point between simulated realism and indistinguishable reality that causes revulsion. A good example would be those creepy investment commercials with the illustrated, animated people, or the movie "Polar Express" with its mannequin Tom Hanks.
Simulated reality of humans and animals inspires "That's neat!" up to that one point. Then there's a gulf at which it's too real but not real enough, when the unreal faces and mannequin bodies scare people instead, and then you arrive at that which is unable to be distinguished from reality.
Since we can't quite do the latter, yet, they're hanging back just before the valley until they can make perfect reality.
Post by: zahc on March 04, 2007, 10:51:35 AM
Quote
Since we can't quite do the latter, yet, they're hanging back just before the valley until they can make perfect reality.
Have you seen FFVII: Advent Children? The movie is horrible, truly so, but the animation must be seen. I still remember being about halfway through the credits, where cloud is riding the motorcycle around, and coming to the realization that that, too, was CGI. I had thought it was live action.
The biggest problem I still see with CGI is dubbing. They always look overdubbed (which of course, they are).
Post by: Manedwolf on March 04, 2007, 10:59:59 AM
Quote
Since we can't quite do the latter, yet, they're hanging back just before the valley until they can make perfect reality.
Have you seen FFVII: Advent Children? The movie is horrible, truly so, but the animation must be seen. I still remember being about halfway through the credits, where cloud is riding the motorcycle around, and coming to the realization that that, too, was CGI. I had thought it was live action.
The biggest problem I still see with CGI is dubbing. They always look overdubbed (which of course, they are).
No, I was scared off by its horrible predecessor with a deus ex machina plot out of some healing-crystal-wearing leftist's fantasy, not to mention the fact that they forgot to include a breathe cycle for the characters.
Post by: zahc on March 04, 2007, 11:58:46 AM
Post by: RocketMan on March 04, 2007, 12:10:41 PM
Two words.
Space Jam.
Warner is the definition of cheap whoring of their properties.
You're right, Maned, that was pretty bad. That's probably why I did not remember it.
I was thinking more along the lines of Chuck Jones inspired Saturday morning shorts, though. I should have been more specific in my post.
Some of that stuff was really fun. I wonder if they would get away with it in today's oppressive PC climate.
Post by: Perd Hapley on March 04, 2007, 12:19:04 PM
Post by: Manedwolf on March 04, 2007, 12:25:42 PM
Two words.
Space Jam.
Warner is the definition of cheap whoring of their properties.
You're right, Maned, that was pretty bad. That's probably why I did not remember it.
I was thinking more along the lines of Chuck Jones inspired Saturday morning shorts, though. I should have been more specific in my post.
Some of that stuff was really fun. I wonder if they would get away with it in today's oppressive PC climate.
There used to be a show on Cartoon Network at night called Toonheads that showed all the now-banned Disney and Warner shorts, including the WWII ones with Hitler and slanty-eyed Japanese caricatures, and the ones with blackface and other stereotype bits. They also discussed them as the valuable window into period society they are.
I can't stand when people ban media from the past because it makes them uncomfortable now. It's how people WERE. It's what the prevailing societal view was. And if it makes people uncomfortable to look at the "mammy" stereotypes now, in what was once popular family entertainment, that's GOOD, since it shows how far we've come as a society, and reminds everyone that such views weren't that long in the past.
As to the war stuff, reducing your enemy to a caricature strengthens you and weakens them. The Japanese were the enemy at the time, and that's simply a fact. Now, at least some people have rediscovered that by making caricatures of Islamist terrorists to laugh at, thus changing fear to resolve, while others, not having realized how and why it worked back then, call it "insensitive".
Banning and censoring things that "make people uncomfortable now" doesn't make them go away, it just removes them from the societal conciousness, and erases the lessons that could have been taught if they'd been kept around.
Post by: Moondoggie on March 04, 2007, 12:27:10 PM
Other than that, yawn.
Crying like a baby when Agustus McCrae died in "Lonesome Dove" is one thing, crying over a cartoon...don't get it. Actually, I'm just kidding about that...anything exceptionally sad in a film can get to me.
Post by: wmenorr67 on March 05, 2007, 03:50:17 AM
Post by: Felonious Monk/Fignozzle on March 05, 2007, 07:23:24 AM
I hate anime. Japanese animation (and SciFi, for that matter) since the days of Speed Racer, Kimba, Ultraman, and some other foolishness has always just turned my stomach; not sure if it's the quick scene changes, stupid looking humans, or motion scenes that are the same 6 or 8 frames looped over and over and over and... until it makes you want to kick the dog.
And I agree about those CREEPY investment commercials, but not so much re: Polar Express.
Post by: Brad Johnson on March 05, 2007, 07:35:56 AM
Quote
I wish someone would bring back and show all the old "Loony Tunes" but they are not PC enough for todays society. However, most if not all are available on DVD.
Wish granted - Looney Tunes Golden Collections, volumes One through Four. Compilations of shorts spanning the entire Looney Tunes era, digitally restored and in un-edited original theatrical presentation.
Brad
Post by: Laurent du Var on March 05, 2007, 07:49:51 AM
Brad, I really enjoyed your post. Very much.
My son, who is five years old, keeps watching : Toystory 1&2, Nemo and Cars endlessly, all the time as long as I let him, which for him is not enough and for me is way too much.
Sometimes he asks me to watch with him and if I do he just sits there silently starring at the screen, no comments or explainations for me, he just wants me to sit there without moving and within minutes I'm distracted : cellphones, fax, E-mail, bills, the wive my daughter who is three and doesn't care much about films. It is like I never get to enjoy the magic and I've only seen those films ripped into a million scenes
Now if I waited until midnight to watch Cars from the beginning to the end
without disturbance I would just have a bad concsience because I had no time to see it with my son....
Post by: Manedwolf on March 05, 2007, 08:45:28 AM
While I don't quite have the deep, abiding love for the movie that you do, Brad, I DO think it's extremely well done and heartwarming.
I hate anime. Japanese animation (and SciFi, for that matter) since the days of Speed Racer, Kimba, Ultraman, and some other foolishness has always just turned my stomach; not sure if it's the quick scene changes, stupid looking humans, or motion scenes that are the same 6 or 8 frames looped over and over and over and... until it makes you want to kick the dog.
And I agree about those CREEPY investment commercials, but not so much re: Polar Express.
I hate anime. Japanese animation (and SciFi, for that matter) since the days of Speed Racer, Kimba, Ultraman, and some other foolishness has always just turned my stomach; not sure if it's the quick scene changes, stupid looking humans, or motion scenes that are the same 6 or 8 frames looped over and over and over and... until it makes you want to kick the dog.
And I agree about those CREEPY investment commercials, but not so much re: Polar Express.
Uh. Heh. Japanese animation has advanced as much since those days as Hollywood has since 1960's detective shows, keep in mind. Watch one of the real-world-weapons shootouts in "ghost in the shell" and see what you think. You're talking about a style that existed forty years ago. You might as well be comparing "Cars" to "Herculoids" or some of the worst cheap hanna-barbera drivel from way back then.
Like this trailer, for the next Ghost in the Shell movie... Watch this, see if you think differently
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3i3jT95NExE
Post by: BrokenPaw on March 05, 2007, 10:05:15 AM
That trailer looks interesting, but one thing I noticed about it was the combination of what appeared to be rendered elements (like the cars) and the obviously hand-drawn bits (like the people). The rendered stuff looks too much like it's an animated trace of a real object, and the people look too obviously like they're cartoons, to be combined together into one movie.
I have liked hand-animated movies, and I've liked fully-rendered CG movies, but I've always found that movies that mixed hand-animated characters with real or realistically-rendered backgrounds are...jarring, and distract from the storyline.
YMMV.
-BP
Post by: zahc on March 05, 2007, 08:03:29 PM
Post by: brimic on March 05, 2007, 09:51:28 PM
I'm glad my son loves Cars, if I had to watch Open Season or one of the LIon King movies more than occasionally, I'd have to eat the business end of a shotgun.
Post by: LadySmith on March 05, 2007, 11:57:10 PM
Quote
The problem is, you just don't "get it". The tentacles, the androgeny, the rape...
Carebear, steer clear of hentai. That crap will rot your brain.Quote
They might cry over the death of Spock in Episode II, like I did. That's different.
I dunno...I took it a lot harder when they blew up the Enterprise.
Post by: Manedwolf on March 06, 2007, 02:46:16 AM
Quote
I dunno...I took it a lot harder when they blew up the Enterprise.
Interestingly, there's been bits mentioned about that as being symptomatic of Hollywood culture. The producers quite literally said, at the time, "Who cares? They can get another one that's newer."
This from people who never served in say, the Navy and grew to love a ship, and never owned a car for more than two years...they lease the latest and shiniest, then trade it in for next year's newer and shiner model. They had no concept of how a mass of machinery you ride or live in can have a soul and personality of its own. They had no appreciation for what was the ONLY redeeming feature of the series up to that point... that the Enterprise was a modern storytelling version of the Greek Argo, which was just as much a character as the Jason and the rest of the crew who sailed on her. This has continued in the series, when they wrecked the Next Generation Enterprise as well, because they thought it'd be "cool". For all you can fault George Lucas, he did, at least, keep the Millenium Falcon around all through the films, even in a cameo in the first ones, and has issued strict orders that no matter what happens in the books, it will never be destroyed.
I suppose those sorts of shallow people also wonder why they bother to maintain the USS Constitution in Boston harbor instead of just scrapping it and putting a new shiny party boat there.
Post by: tyme on March 06, 2007, 07:27:21 AM
I've never watched Ghost in the Shell anything, unfortunately. I'm going to give the first movie and 2 SAC seasons a try.
I can't stand Pixar. All this talk of anime and cartoons has got me about to buy one of my favorite childhood cartoons, though... Dungeons and Dragons.
Post by: zahc on March 06, 2007, 08:01:18 AM
Post by: Manedwolf on March 06, 2007, 08:36:09 AM
A word of warning, both GitS movies suffer from (or benefit from, depending on opinion) Oshii's rather distinctive direction.
Ghost in the Shell Solid State Society is the third movie, and has nothing to do with the first two, especially the odd second one. It's based on the Stand Alone Complex TV series, same detective-story plot, and picks up after Season 2 ends.
I'd personally recommend watching the first movie, which has scenes, like the chasing of a terrorist through a crowded Asian marketplace, that just have to be seen to be believed. SKIP the second movie, Innocence, which wasn't very good. And watch the SAC series, which is just incredible. The series has none of the quasi-psycho-mystical bits of the end of the first movie, either, it's just a cop drama in 2034. Plus they have a near-fanatical devotion to depicting the actual operation of real-world firearms. Even the characters have some neat ones. The detective named Togusa carries a Mateba autorevolver, and the main character is sometimes seen with either an IMI Jericho or original-design bullpups that look like they'd actually work very well. (A lot of people have half-jokingly suggested that FN copied the P 2000 from the series designs!)
Oh, yeah, and watch the subtitled versions. The dubbing sucks, especially in the first movie.
Post by: Nightfall on March 06, 2007, 10:37:34 AM
Quote from: LadySmith
Carebear, steer clear of hentai. That crap will rot your brain.
I'll second that. I watched some hentai, thinking "Hey, I like anime. I like sex. Awesome!" Yeah, not so much. Let's just say the Japanese and I aren't on the same page when it comes to sexuality... Messed. Up.
Post by: Matthew Carberry on March 06, 2007, 07:06:57 PM
Post by: zahc on March 06, 2007, 07:27:10 PM
Quote
Let's just say the Japanese and I aren't on the same page when it comes to sexuality..
I would be more careful about typecasting an entire nation of people like that.
I certainly hope nobody in japan thinks I like Oprah because I'm american.
Post by: Manedwolf on March 07, 2007, 02:31:28 AM
Quote
Let's just say the Japanese and I aren't on the same page when it comes to sexuality..
I would be more careful about typecasting an entire nation of people like that.
I certainly hope nobody in japan thinks I like Oprah because I'm american.
Yes. For the record, the Japanese stereotype of American men in depicted media tends to be either horribly hirstute excessive-testosterone gorillas, grotesquely obese waddlers with thinning hair and multiple chins, or flaming prancers.
Stereotypes of an entire nation's populace are seldom helpful, and it goes both ways.
Post by: brimic on March 09, 2007, 05:26:10 PM
Quote
Yes. For the record, the Japanese stereotype of American men in depicted media tends to be either horribly hirstute excessive-testosterone gorillas, grotesquely obese waddlers with thinning hair and multiple chins, or flaming prancers.
Thankfully I fit into the first category at first glance.
Post by: Phyphor on March 11, 2007, 06:21:12 PM
They might cry over the death of Spock in Episode II, like I did. That's different.
Spock died?
4 words:
"Vulcan in a microwave."
Post by: Phyphor on March 11, 2007, 07:01:01 PM
Quote from: LadySmith
Carebear, steer clear of hentai. That crap will rot your brain.
The lady doth spoketh the truth.
Quote
They might cry over the death of Spock in Episode II, like I did. That's different.
I dunno...I took it a lot harder when they blew up the Enterprise.
[/quote]
That was seriously kinda sad, especially after all Kirk went through to get her back...and then to give her up again just to try to save his best friend.
Those were the GOOD Trek movies...after 6, they largely just sucked.
YMMV
Post by: zahc on March 11, 2007, 09:22:19 PM
Post by: Matthew Carberry on March 11, 2007, 10:27:15 PM
Spoiler warnings please
For a movie from 1982 that was referenced in the next two films in the series and been talked about endlessly in pop culture since then?
It's 25 years old.
Empire Strikes Back? Vader is Luke's father.
Old Yeller? Dog gets rabies, kid has to lock the dog in a corn crib and shoot it.
Citizen Kane? It's a sled, "Rosebud" is a sled.
Post by: Cromlech on March 11, 2007, 10:52:48 PM
While spoiler warnings are nice, carebear has a point. The only person who might need spoiler warnings for movies that old, is Fistful. I mean, who the hell hasn't seen 'The Great Escape'?
Post by: Perd Hapley on March 11, 2007, 11:27:46 PM
Post by: LadySmith on March 12, 2007, 02:30:55 AM
Quote
You'd be shocked at what I haven't seen. For example, just about any horror movie.
I am genuinely shocked! No vampires? No slashers?? No zombies?!?
Quote
I've seen NOTHING with Barbara Streisand.
Come to think of it, neither have I.
Post by: Silver Bullet on March 12, 2007, 05:58:03 PM
Quote
I don't suppose I need to mention Cowboy Bepop. Cowboy Bebop is so amazing, it doesn't belong in this thread.
I think you're right; that's why I'm not going to mention Cowboy Bebop either. Actually, I just started watching it. Amazing artwork.
I kept seeing references to it in viewer reviews of Firefly, so I thought I'd try it. Now I read Bebop reviews and see references to Firefly.
Post by: LadySmith on March 13, 2007, 02:38:32 AM
Doggone it, answer me Fistful because I'm going off on tangents here.
Post by: zahc on March 13, 2007, 05:28:42 AM
Quote
For a movie from 1982 that was referenced in the next two films in the series and been talked about endlessly in pop culture since then? shocked
It's 25 years old.
It's 25 years old.
I'm 21 years old. I wasn't even alive when it was made. It was 12-15 years old before I could have been old enough to appreciate it. Unfortunately, I was unable to enjoy it without some ahole spoiling it for me. Your argument-from-age makes no sense unless you think people shouldn't be able to enjoy older content. Most of the music, much of the movies, and almost all of the books I read are older than I am.
There is a special place in hell for people that (especially intentionally) spoil things, right next to the child molesters and people that talk in theaters.
Post by: Matthew Carberry on March 13, 2007, 08:03:00 AM
You can't expect everyone to keep silent about everything that happened before you were born. That's ridiculous. In essence, you're insisting no one in the world talk publically about any movie, television show or concert on the off chance someone, anyone, younger than they standing nearby hadn't seen it yet?
One of the down sides of coming along after things happen is everyone else knows about them but you. Wrath of Kahn has been the subject of as much pop culture reference as any movie ever. Hell, the next movie was titled "The Search for Spock". Spock's death in the film was unexpected if you weren't a "fan" and read reviews and promo material and such but wasn't a "secret" even when the movie came out.
Argument from history, not age, is perfectly valid. Should no one "spoil" the fact the Berlin Wall came down? Or that Challenger exploded on takeoff? Hey, guess what, the Eagles got back together for a tour in the 90's. Things happened before you were born, other people want to talk about them, get over it.
"spoiler warnings" properly only exist in two circumstances.
1) the film is still in theatres during its first run - in this case it is reasonable to expect someone who might want to see it hasn't gotten there yet.
2) the film is fairly recent and absolutely hinges on a key plot point, like the Crying Game or Sixth Sense, even then, once it's been on video for a while it becomes a bit whiney to expect everyone else to go out of their way in not discussing it.
Wrath of Kahn is a quarter of a century old and yet all the ST fans of all ages have seen it. You've had a decade to get around to it yourself.
Post by: Perd Hapley on March 13, 2007, 10:07:55 AM
I'm just squeamish is all. When people are getting stabbed or slashed on screen, I literally avert my eyes until it's over. I'm probably more put off by the way so many of those films too closely mirror reality. Not in the details, of course, but just in the way that the bad guy goes around gleefully slashing people who lack the means or the guts to defend themselves. Then when they finally stop him, they stand there and look at him until he gets back up and starts killing again. For crying out loud, people, finish him off! Not that that matters, of course, he always comes back from the grave.
I especially hate the movies where pretty girls are cut up. Disfiguring a beautiful woman is just something I don't like to contemplate. It's like the feeling we get when a pile of "illegal guns" are destroyed - but worse. I suppose that's terribly sexist of me.
Post by: zahc on March 13, 2007, 11:44:40 AM
Quote
In essence, you're insisting no one in the world talk publically about any movie, television show or concert on the off chance someone, anyone, younger than they standing nearby hadn't seen it yet?
I expect that people make an effort to courteous and provide warning. It's fairly simple to take a second and make sure you don't ruin something for someone, and that all members in the audience are consenting. I spend a lot of time on various message boards where people are rather good about this. In fact, not doing so is often a moddable offense. It's simply good netiquette, maybe you missed the memo.
You didn't spoil anything for me. I'm concerned that you might spoil something for someone else.
Quote
Should no one "spoil" the fact the Berlin Wall came down? Or that Challenger exploded on takeoff? Hey, guess what, the Eagles got back together for a tour in the 90's.
Those things are completely different, more or less completely.
Post by: Matthew Carberry on March 13, 2007, 04:07:40 PM
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In essence, you're insisting no one in the world talk publically about any movie, television show or concert on the off chance someone, anyone, younger than they standing nearby hadn't seen it yet?
I expect that people make an effort to courteous and provide warning. It's fairly simple to take a second and make sure you don't ruin something for someone, and that all members in the audience are consenting. I spend a lot of time on various message boards where people are rather good about this. In fact, not doing so is often a moddable offense. It's simply good netiquette, maybe you missed the memo.
You didn't spoil anything for me. I'm concerned that you might spoil something for someone else.
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Should no one "spoil" the fact the Berlin Wall came down? Or that Challenger exploded on takeoff? Hey, guess what, the Eagles got back together for a tour in the 90's.
Those things are completely different, more or less completely.
I guess I see a practical difficulty in not being able to discuss the end, which is often the good part, of every film in existence since the 1920's without typing "spoiler warning". There has to realistically be a cut off. Maybe not on a film board, but definitely on a free-wheeling general subjects board with constant pop culture references.
I will continue to assume (and believe that there is nothing rude about doing so) that a several year-old movie that has entered the culture no longer requires a warning. At a certain point folks need to either avoid movie discussions or go and see the films they have an interest in rather than requiring the rest of us to go out of our way to avoid mentioning every possible movie plot point.
Post by: Cromlech on March 13, 2007, 04:20:02 PM
I'm 21 years old. I wasn't even alive when it was made. It was 12-15 years old before I could have been old enough to appreciate it. Unfortunately, I was unable to enjoy it without some ahole spoiling it for me. Your argument-from-age makes no sense unless you think people shouldn't be able to enjoy older content. Most of the music, much of the movies, and almost all of the books I read are older than I am.
I am the same age as you, and I have seen the movie at least 4 or 5 times, including when I was probably 8, maybe younger. I can understand what you are saying, as I hate spoilers, but you must have led a sheltered life to have missed this movie.
Post by: Perd Hapley on March 13, 2007, 07:35:15 PM
Post by: LadySmith on March 13, 2007, 09:43:32 PM
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I'm probably more put off by the way so many of those films too closely mirror reality.
This brings to mind the many times I've heard about witnesses responding to bad happenings with, "But I didn't think it was real. I thought they were making a movie." Hmmm.
Post by: Manedwolf on March 17, 2007, 07:39:07 PM
If you saw The Spirits Within and hated it, rest assured that everyone hated it. Give FFVII: Advent Children a chance if you want to see some groundbreaking cgi. For the "morally bankrupt": {torrent}
Addendum to that. I found it, watched 10 minutes of it, turned it off and returned it.
That was AWFUL. Like a crappy game cutscene, same jerky movements of limbs, same glass eyes and waxy, dead faces. In fact some OF the cutscenes from Squaresoft games were better! That was just...horrible.