Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: MillCreek on December 29, 2020, 11:10:49 AM
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https://www.oregonlive.com/crime/2020/12/shooter-at-vancouver-medical-building-showed-up-hours-early-became-agitated-he-couldnt-be-seen-court-documents-say.html
And kills a 20-year old receptionist who was studying to be a paramedic, and then himself. I have professional colleagues at that very clinic.
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The death spiral ingrained in the politics of the day is having consequences on our culture.
Those embracing the death spiral are locked into their fate, however, it slops over on the rest of us.
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MillCreek, I was dispatching the day this happened. I still can't wrap my head around it... Apparently she was likely not even the same person that told him he was a couple hours early for his appointment. She had literally just come back from her lunch.
I mean, I can understand the feeling of frustration. You screwed up, came in a couple hours early, maybe even there was a miscommunication from the clinic. But talk about a completely unhinged and disproportionate reaction! I wonder if there was an undiagnosed mental illness process happening there? I suspect we'll learn more as time goes on, but mostly just a WTF?
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My office is in one of our clinic buildings and I am typically the highest-ranking executive in the building. Several times a month, I get called downstairs to deal with these sort of situations when the person wants to speak to 'someone in charge'. It makes me think.
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The 58-year-old was a couple hours early, became agitated when he was told he couldn’t be seen immediately and left, court documents show. Minutes later, Moore returned and shot 20-year-old Liliya Zagariya, who was working as a concierge in the lobby, documents said. Then he fatally shot himself.
I wonder if he could be seen "immediately" even if he was on time. I am curious about how it all went down. It was a post op appointment. Could pain play a part in this? Sucks he decided to take it out on her.
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^^^My entirely anecdotal opinion, based on being in senior healthcare leadership for the past 16 years, is that people are getting snippier and nastier as time goes on. I am surprised by this guy's response, but his anger and distress at being told that he will have to wait does not surprise me one bit. We see this all the time in our clinics and hospitals and it has gotten worse over the years. Just two weeks ago, I had a guy who was unhappy that sicker patients were triaged ahead of him in the urgent care clinic, and he started filming the staff with his cellphone, threatening to put them on Facebook, and that he would look up their home address and come to their homes. I sent him a letter firing him from the system, a trespass notice, and told him that I would file for a restraining order if he contacted any staff member. He now has my name, and can look up my address. I wonder if I will hear from him.
I am not smart enough to understand if my opinion is widely shared, or what the reason is for this change in behavior. I have friends and family who work in customer-facing jobs, like retail or commercial food service, and they seem to think that things have gotten worse.
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The "I want what I want and I want it right now!" attitude is on the rise everywhere. (Not usually violent thankfully)
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I am not smart enough to understand if my opinion is widely shared, or what the reason is for this change in behavior. I have friends and family who work in customer-facing jobs, like retail or commercial food service, and they seem to think that things have gotten worse.
A couple of weeks ago I was in Costco. I pushed my cart one way as another shopper pushed her cart so that we had a minor collision. I made an offhand remark about needing lanes and traffic lights in Costco. We talked for a few seconds, and she noted that because of all the shutdown and work from home, people are just out of practice at being around others. I think she had a good point there. Crowd behavior has deteriorated in the last few months. For that matter, so has people's driving "etiquette". It actually seems to get noticeably worse from day to day.
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^^^My entirely anecdotal opinion, based on being in senior healthcare leadership for the past 16 years, is that people are getting snippier and nastier as time goes on. I am surprised by this guy's response, but his anger and distress at being told that he will have to wait does not surprise me one bit. We see this all the time in our clinics and hospitals and it has gotten worse over the years. Just two weeks ago, I had a guy who was unhappy that sicker patients were triaged ahead of him in the urgent care clinic, and he started filming the staff with his cellphone, threatening to put them on Facebook, and that he would look up their home address and come to their homes. I sent him a letter firing him from the system, a trespass notice, and told him that I would file for a restraining order if he contacted any staff member. He now has my name, and can look up my address. I wonder if I will hear from him.
I am not smart enough to understand if my opinion is widely shared, or what the reason is for this change in behavior. I have friends and family who work in customer-facing jobs, like retail or commercial food service, and they seem to think that things have gotten worse.
Obviously, his reaction was unjustifiable in any case, and if the problem was that he showed up two hours early then it was even more over the top. That said, you are on the inside. From the perspective of an outsider, my view is that doctors (and/or the people who own the doctors' practices) have made things much worse for patients. I am not a morning person, but I always try to schedule medical appointments fairly early in the day because I know I'm not going to get in to see the doctor at the scheduled time even if I arrive 15 minutes early, as suggested. The later in the day, the longer the delays become. Basically, doctors are overbooking. Yes, I understand that emergencies can occur and that, once in awhile, a doctor might not be able to see a patient right on the dot of the appointment time. When every doctor is late for every single appointment, sometimes by an hour or more, then I think the system is broken and patients have a right to be upset.
I view an appointment as a contract. I agree to be at the doctor's office at xx:yy o'clock, and I arrange my schedule around that. In return, the doctor [supposedly] agrees to see me at xx:yy o'clock. If I skip my appointment, many doctors charge a missed appointment fee. If the doctor keeps me waiting so I'm late for something else, or I have to cancel a meeting -- where's my compensation? My billable rate for 2020 was $279 an hour. If a doctor keeps me waiting for an hour for a scheduled appointment, why shouldn't I be compensated $279 for that hour of my time? Doctors care about being paid for their time, but they don't care about the value of the patients' time.
It cuts both ways.
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^^^My entirely anecdotal opinion, based on being in senior healthcare leadership for the past 16 years, is that people are getting snippier and nastier as time goes on.
I am not smart enough to understand if my opinion is widely shared, or what the reason is for this change in behavior. I have friends and family who work in customer-facing jobs, like retail or commercial food service, and they seem to think that things have gotten worse.
I've been in the service industry my entire career, with the exception of the military. You're entirely right. Things have been getting less civil overall, and 2020 just kicked that already declining standard off a cliff. People are just getting nastier overall.
I'm in smalltown Midwest, and regionally it feels like Boston/the Northeast circa the early 00's to me. Just nasty in general.
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I've been in the service industry my entire career, with the exception of the military. You're entirely right. Things have been getting less civil overall, and 2020 just kicked that already declining standard off a cliff. People are just getting nastier overall.
I'm in smalltown Midwest, and regionally it feels like Boston/the Northeast circa the early 00's to me. Just nasty in general.
I've only been in retail for a bit over 7 years, but I've noticed quite a bit of a change in attitude during that short time. All that's been in E. Texas, where kids are still raised to say Yes Ma'am/Sir. And a some of them do say it, just not as many.
More and more people are less patient, more rude, more crude and more violent. More stealing going on too.
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I've only been in retail for a bit over 7 years, but I've noticed quite a bit of a change in attitude during that short time. All that's been in E. Texas, where kids are still raised to say Yes Ma'am/Sir. And a some of them do say it, just not as many.
More and more people are less patient, more rude, more crude and more violent. More stealing going on too.
Minor thread drift, but in that same light, I've noticed the people I spend time with are notably more polite than the average. It's almost like the people of quality are going out of their way to prove we're better than that.
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As for people getting snappier and the "I want it now!"
I work in logistics and schedule inbound load appointments. We constantly have trucks show up hours, occasionally days, early for their appointment and get flat out pissed that we aren't jumping to get them offloaded early when all of our unloaders are tied up on other offloads. Don't get me started on the ones that are scheduled to drop their trailer but expect to be offloaded in 15 minutes so they can be down the road with the trailer they arrived with.
The same is true for those that show up several hours, again sometimes days, late and get pissy when we don't have an opening to offload their trailer RFN.
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So is Trump the result of less civility in society, or just another symptom?
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I also have seen and noted that people have just gotten nasty lately. We are used to dealing with high strung and nervous "pet parents", but these days they are just mean. We lost one long term customer over a very simple issue who literally started screaming at my boss in the parking lot... All because she didn't get the call and voicemail that her dog was finished and we waited an hour before calling her back.
And that's been something of the norm this year, rather than a freak thing.
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Our whole culture is just one big web of lies. Intuitively, everyone knows this is true.
But it is easier to along to get along and believe the lies, or pretend you do at least.
Living in a perpetual state of cognitive dissonance is not utopia, regardless of the level of societal wealth.
Living in a state of perpetual cognitive dissonance is more like a disturbing post modern film or a bad acid trip, something closer to hell than utopia.
Media and some arms of government scaring the dickens out of everyone, ramping up the fear doesn't help either.
All things considered I'm surprised that folks aren't even more agitated.
Folks have retreated into their own personal little narcissistic bubble, any disturbance to their bubble reality and they they get snippy.
We've had plenty of negative interactions in our store, probably slightly more than a typical holiday season.
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One trend that has been going on all my life is a suppression of personal responsibility and reduction of consequences for bad behavior. Taking action against such behavior is met with a stronger reaction from authorities (or courts) than the bad behavior. At some point, you are going to have people who never face any limits on their behavior. Not everyone will react to such things with pure selfishness, but some will do so some of the time at least.
I was also thinking about the difference between people who behave properly because they think it is the right and moral thing to do versus people who behave properly because they think it is expected or they are afraid of the consequences. The later may forget those limits after a year like 2020.
Just throwing out ideas. I doubt it is a single thing and we are talking about a bunch of anecdotal observations.
Overall, the govt is getting bigger and taking more control of our lives and decisions and overall our freedom is reduced. That didn't all happen this year, but many people were slapped in the face by that reality this year. That has to have an effect.
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So is Trump the result of less civility in society, or just another symptom?
Symptom, definatly, a SYMPTOM.
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Trump is a disrupter.
He is a response to the fakery.
Trump is great if for no other reason than the labeling of our media "fake news".
You don't have to believe lies if you don't want to, not even the lies Trump tells.
The "fake" moniker is the greatest meme ever used, by far the best, masterclass. He stole it and owned it and wielded it without mercy.
Fake democracy, fake science, fake elections, fake president elect the list is endless of fake stuff ie lies that we are expected swallow. Fake marriages, fake families, fake "women", fake "men", fake equality, the fake economy. How about all the media driven fake conflicts? Women against men, LGBT vs normal, Black against white all drummed up, inflamed and goaded along by fake news. How about fake hate? All the haters out there, hate this, hate that.... Doesn't anyone even have a dictionary? The word doesn't mean what they say it means.
Trump was/is our court jester. Court Jesters get to make fun of the Kings and Royal Courts foolishness and fakery.
Then again it really isn't making fun of the King and Court, they all know they are liars. Lies are the coin of the realm.
Maybe it's making fun of all the people who willingly believe all the lies?
We should be thankful for his great work these last four years.
It took an absurd President to reveal the absurdity of the system.
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Trump is a disrupter.
He is a response to the fakery.
Trump is great if for no other reason than the labeling of our media "fake news".
You don't have to believe lies if you don't want to, not even the lies Trump tells.
The "fake" moniker is the greatest meme ever used, by far the best, masterclass. He stole it and owned it and wielded it without mercy.
Fake democracy, fake science, fake elections, fake president elect the list is endless of fake stuff ie lies that we are expected swallow. Fake marriages, fake families, fake "women", fake "men", fake equality, the fake economy. How about all the media driven fake conflicts? Women against men, LGBT vs normal, Black against white all drummed up, inflamed and goaded along by fake news. How about fake hate? All the haters out there, hate this, hate that.... Doesn't anyone even have a dictionary? The word doesn't mean what they say it means.
Trump was/is our court jester. Court Jesters get to make fun of the Kings and Royal Courts foolishness and fakery.
Then again it really isn't making fun of the King and Court, they all know they are liars. Lies are the coin of the realm.
Maybe it's making fun of all the people who willingly believe all the lies?
We should be thankful for his great work these last four years.
It took an absurd President to reveal the absurdity of the system.
He needs one of those funny jester hats with the little bells ....... [tinfoil]
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If the twisted tea response was more common and it didn’t ruin your life in the legal system then people would be more polite. In reference to the aggressor in the OP being told no and getting his ass handed to him much earlier in life might have averted this. We are a nation of on edge over indulged children
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So is Trump the result of less civility in society, or just another symptom?
Result.
I was a never Trumper and voted for him as an absolute *expletive deleted*ck YOU to the system and Mrs. Clinton.
The GOP has no balls and the DNC is objectively evil, so you get Trump.
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If the twisted tea response was more common and it didn’t ruin your life in the legal system then people would be more polite. In reference to the aggressor in the OP being told no and getting his ass handed to him much earlier in life might have averted this. We are a nation of on edge over indulged children
^ This. This. This.
The victim culture praises victim hood rather than standing up for yourself, but if no one is willing to stand up for themselves right then and there then down the darkening hole we go.
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If the twisted tea response was more common and it didn’t ruin your life in the legal system then people would be more polite. In reference to the aggressor in the OP being told no and getting his ass handed to him much earlier in life might have averted this. We are a nation of on edge over indulged children
I used to live really close to there. Wish I could find the guy and buy him a case of Twisted Tea.
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^ This. This. This.
The victim culture praises victim hood rather than standing up for yourself, but if no one is willing to stand up for themselves right then and there then down the darkening hole we go.
We are also at the point where the dead rape victim is considered to be morally superior to the living survivor that defended themself with lethal force.
This sums up my opinion pretty well.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50313555198_2a6a3f9e20_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jE384C)
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There are times I just can not wrap my head around the actions of some people over the most trivial matters.
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^ This. This. This.
The victim culture praises victim hood rather than standing up for yourself, but if no one is willing to stand up for themselves right then and there then down the darkening hole we go.
I've had a couple conversations with management - where I told them I've had enough of being disrespected by customers and I'm not going to take it any longer. Since then I've walked away in the middle of transactions or even refused to start others.
It's a small town. I see some of them occasionally. Most have been more respectful the second time. Others have avoided me. Either way's fine by me.
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Just noticed this is titled "middle aged man". That guy is by definition a boomer, and not middle aged at all.
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Just noticed this is titled "middle aged man". That guy is by definition a boomer, and not middle aged at all.
Boomers consider themselves middle aged :rofl:
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Boomers consider themselves middle aged :rofl:
Ya know, I consider boomer a bit of a pejorative, but a 58 year old boomer is as much a boomer as I am a gen Xer. Technically fit one gen but absolutely don't identify with it. Just pointing out the madness. Guy in question fits the karen boomer mold though.
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He was 58. My dictionary defines middle aged as 40 to 60.
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He was 58. My dictionary defines middle aged as 40 to 60.
OK Boomer =D
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He was 58. My dictionary defines middle aged as 40 to 60.
Your dictionary needs changing - middle age should be up to 65, at least. :old:
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Your dictionary needs changing - middle age should be up to 65, at least. :old:
Sweet, that would buy me 2 more years! :old: :old: :old: