Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Fly320s on October 05, 2021, 07:30:59 PM
-
Not much info yet. No one knows why.
https://northeastshooters.com/xen/threads/breaking-atf-has-sized-some-of-larry-vickers-collection.420356/
The PDF that lists what was seized. Vickers' guns are listed on pages 3 through 11.
https://www.forfeiture.gov/pdf/ATF/OfficialNotification.pdf
-
Bastards.
That's some high value stuff, most of which he'll likely never see again.
-
I had no idea that there were that many $1000 machine guns in existence.
-
I had no idea that there were that many $1000 machine guns in existence.
Probably just a place holder or a default value.
-
Posted in another forum
Yea, the feds have been after him for awhile.
Been harassing him and his girlfriend.
He has a medical Marijuana card for his cancer, gave his GF some pot, and here comes the alphabet boys.
-
Well, with a name like Vickers...
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/gG2YfcAJrtU/maxresdefault.jpg)
Say, I'm not reallly up on medical marijuana, but I thought the trigger words were "habitual user of." How can someone be a "habitual user" if he's got an MD's Rx for the stuff?
-
The phrasing is "Unlawful user of". And since MJ is still illegal everywhere in the country, that's an excuse if they are looking for one.
-
The feds railroaded Kyle Meyers, the guy who was FPSRUSSIA, seized 400k of guns and threw him into federal prison for 6 months over a little MJ. They will do the same to Vickers most likely
-
This could make an interesting court case.
Legal marijuana vs legal guns. Do they cancel out or are both protected under law?
-
This could make an interesting court case.
Legal marijuana vs legal guns.
As far as the Feds are concerned, the marijuana isn't legal, though. And his use of marijuana makes the possession of the guns illegal. Whatever state he has a pot card from might not prosecute him (NC doesn't seem to allow medical marijuana except for certain CBD oils), but he's not facing state level charges right now, is he?
Do they cancel out or are both protected under law?
Or, more likely, are neither protected?
-
Well, smoking dope or machine guns, choose one or the other but don't try and choose both unless you are looking for potential legal/Fed trouble.
Hopefully he has good lawyers and he escapes punishment.
-
Well, smoking dope or machine guns, choose one or the other but don't try and choose both unless you are looking for potential legal/Fed trouble.
Hopefully he has good lawyers and he escapes punishment.
Yup. You can't even say that an ATF under a Republican admin wouldn't be doing the same thing. This time they're using pot laws because they hate guns. Under an R they might punish a gun owner because they hate pot.
Leave me alone.
-
Can't speak to the truthfulness of the MJ rumor. That just what I saw in another forum.
Also seeing he lost/gave up his SOT and the guns seized are post 86 https://twitter.com/FreedomFriedF/status/1445501276419018761
-
I thought it was interesting that Brandon Herrera got one of his early model AKs a little while back - must have been related to him giving up his SOT.
-
I thought it was interesting that Brandon Herrera got one of his early model AKs a little while back - must have been related to him giving up his SOT.
Makes me wonder if he was working on unloading them, but it was a work in progress and the AFT got impatient or wanted to jump the gun.
-
The Feds probably don't recognize STATE issued medical MJ cards since MJ is FEDERALLY illegal.
I know that there used to be a FEDERAL program providing "legal" MJ to a (very) few people for medical conditions like glaucoma, but I heard that this program was terminated for new applicants; perhaps older users were grandfathered.
Disclaimer: What I think the current status is of this program shouldn't be considered reliable info, and I've no ideal what if anything MJ has to do with Vickers.
-
"SOT probably expired"
ATF Takes 179 Machine Guns from Larry Vickers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkT0SHWMpSo
-
The Feds probably don't recognize STATE issued medical MJ cards since MJ is FEDERALLY illegal.
I don't think there is any "probably" involved. Federal law does not recognize state-issued marijuana cards. This point has been made on "gun" forums many, many times in response to questions about how holders of medical marijuana cards should respond to the question on the 4473. The answer is always "Don't." If you are using marijuana, you can't lawfully possess firearms under federal law.
-
I don't think there is any "probably" involved. Federal law does not recognize state-issued marijuana cards.
More to the point, they both don't recognize the state laws, but then also ignore the Federal laws until it suits them. They ignore the medical mary laws until they can use them to their advantage.
Ayn Rand was prescient.
-
I guess we can toss out the "We don't need new gun laws, just enforce the existing ones on the book" argument?
-
I guess we can toss out the "We don't need new gun laws, just enforce the existing ones on the book" argument?
I'm not sure where you're going with that, but there's a difference between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. They raided him while he was in chemo. It could very well be that he had health issues that overrode his keeping up on paperwork. If his SOT expired, okay, that's the law, but the spirit of the law would take extenuating circumstances into account and maybe they could have worked with him. Even the IRS follows the spirit of the law most of the time and doesn't just seize assets - they work with people first.
This sounds too much like some Chapman like chap at the ATF saw an opportunity (letter of the law) to get some "evil machine guns off the street". Perhaps there will be more info released over time that clarifies just what happened.
-
I'm not sure where you're going with that, but there's a difference between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. They raided him while he was in chemo. It could very well be that he had health issues that overrode his keeping up on paperwork. If his SOT expired, okay, that's the law, but the spirit of the law would take extenuating circumstances into account and maybe they could have worked with him. Even the IRS follows the spirit of the law most of the time and doesn't just seize assets - they work with people first.
This sounds too much like some Chapman like chap at the ATF saw an opportunity (letter of the law) to get some "evil machine guns off the street". Perhaps there will be more info released over time that clarifies just what happened.
Hopefully more info is released, Vickers might of told them to FO since he might not be alive that much longer and all out of F's.
-
I guess we can toss out the "We don't need new gun laws, just enforce the existing ones on the book" argument?
That's why I can't abide that stupid argument.
Yes.
Stupid.
It's another case of successive compromises (since 1933) resulting in transformation of a right into a privilege with approval by unthinking acclamation.
Terry, 230RN
-
More to the point, they both don't recognize the state laws, but then also ignore the Federal laws until it suits them. They ignore the medical mary laws until they can use them to their advantage.
Ayn Rand was prescient.
Truth.
-
Let's ignore the guys smuggling guns to the Sinaloa cartel en masse, and let's raid the cancer patient who is absolutely not doing such things. Yeah that's pretty standard ATF procedure.
-
Let's ignore the guys smuggling guns to the Sinaloa cartel en masse, and let's raid the cancer patient who is absolutely not doing such things. Yeah that's pretty standard ATF procedure.
Vickers doesn’t put money in politician pockets
-
Let's ignore the guys smuggling guns to the Sinaloa cartel en masse, and let's raid the cancer patient who is absolutely not doing such things. Yeah that's pretty standard ATF procedure.
This. He's a conservative pro-gun activist.
-
Vickers doesn’t put money in the right politician pockets
FIFY
-
Update
Looks like he's in deep do do
The defendants allegedly intended to impermissibly import into the United States and resell the machineguns and other firearms for profit or to keep for their own use and enjoyment. Sullivan allegedly submitted the false law letters to the ATF seeking to import the machineguns and other restricted weapons. Once the firearms were received, Sullivan allegedly kept some of the machineguns and other restricted weapons and transferred some of the weapons to Vickers, Tafoya, and other conspirators.
In addition to the indictment, Larry Vickers pleaded guilty yesterday to participating in the conspiracy to import and obtain machineguns and other restricted firearms and admitted that he received some of the imported machineguns and other weapons. As detailed in his plea agreement, Vickers kept some of the machineguns and other restricted weapons in his personal collection and transferred other machineguns and restricted weapons to other FFLs and third parties. Vickers also pleaded guilty to a conspiracy to violate U.S. sanctions against a foreign firearms manufacturer between July 2014 and March 2021, in the Southern District of Florida.
Vickers faces a maximum sentence of five years in federal prison for conspiracy to violate federal law regulating firearms and a maximum of 20 years in federal prison for conspiracy to violate the International Emergency Economic Powers Act. U.S. District Judge Julie R. Rubin has not yet scheduled sentencing for Vickers.
North Carolina and North Dakota Police Chiefs and Federal Firearms Licensees Indicted for Conspiracy to Illegally Acquire Machineguns and Other Firearms
https://www.justice.gov/usao-md/pr/north-carolina-and-north-dakota-police-chiefs-and-federal-firearms-licensees-indicted
-
So he only broke unconstitutional laws.
-
I don't think there is any "probably" involved. Federal law does not recognize state-issued marijuana cards. This point has been made on "gun" forums many, many times in response to questions about how holders of medical marijuana cards should respond to the question on the 4473. The answer is always "Don't." If you are using marijuana, you can't lawfully possess firearms under federal law.
Is it really "possess"? Or is it "receive in interstate commerce"? (fill out a 4473) Serious question, although it's just academic for me because I've never even tried the stuff. Also, are they using a state-issued medical MJ card as de facto proof that the holder is a user? What if one has the card but has not yet purchased any MJ, and perhaps never will? (but then why would you have the card)
ETA: the fact that they are NFA items might make a difference
-
Is it really "possess"? Or is it "receive in interstate commerce"? (fill out a 4473) Serious question, although it's just academic for me because I've never even tried the stuff. Also, are they using a state-issued medical MJ card as de facto proof that the holder is a user? What if one has the card but has not yet purchased any MJ, and perhaps never will? (but then why would you have the card)
ETA: the fact that they are NFA items might make a difference
It is possess. 18 USC 922(g)(3).
Although.....that provision of the GCA has been found unconstitutional in Third (I think) circuit and the SCOTUS has been asked to weigh in. I think the case is Range vs. Attorney General, but I might have that wrong, there's a lot of 2A cases to keep track these days.
-
Guns & Gadgets has picked up the story
Nothing the above doesn't say except for his opinion that they're using him as an example
Indicted & Pleaded GUILTY: Larry Vickers Faces 25 Years in Federal Prison.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1zrit4D57c
-
Nothing the above doesn't say except for his option that they're using him as an example
Which doesn't change the fact that he pleaded guilty, and apparently he WAS guilty.
It's difficult for me to understand how someone as prominent and as respected as Larry Vickers could possibly have been that stupid.
-
Okay, I'm a little late to this discussion but, who is Larry Vickers? I haven't heard of him before.
-
Okay, I'm a little late to this discussion but, who is Larry Vickers? I haven't heard of him before.
Google is your friend ...
-
Google is your friend ...
This might be a more helpful response:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Vickers
-
Apparently Vickers also accused of illegally importing weapons from Russia, in violation of sanctions.
That was stupid, if true.
-
Meh, I won't call him stupid on the details I know so far. A whole bunch of "illegal" firearms come into the country every year and noone finds out and goes to jail. Also the laws around importing firearms for a FFL are byzintine. I doubt he was meeting a blacked out Scarab on a miami beach in the dark of night to smuggle in PPsH's. For all we know he may have thought he was in the right with regulations and run afoul of one he didn't know about. Or he had a conspericay with someone loudmouthed. Could go either way.
It's interesting to me that he's up for 5 years for the super evil scary machine guns that kill all the kids and 20 years for giving money to someone the fed.gov said was bad. Kinda shows the gov's priorities.
-
Meh, I won't call him stupid on the details I know so far. A whole bunch of "illegal" firearms come into the country every year and noone finds out and goes to jail. Also the laws around importing firearms for a FFL are byzintine. I doubt he was meeting a blacked out Scarab on a miami beach in the dark of night to smuggle in PPsH's. For all we know he may have thought he was in the right with regulations and run afoul of one he didn't know about. Or he had a conspericay with someone loudmouthed. Could go either way.
It's interesting to me that he's up for 5 years for the super evil scary machine guns that kill all the kids and 20 years for giving money to someone the fed.gov said was bad. Kinda shows the gov's priorities.
They got Capone for tax evasion. Most of the mobsters Giuliani put away in the 90’s went on RICO charges. Not murder, drug running, extortion, etc.
-
They got Capone for tax evasion. Most of the mobsters Giuliani put away in the 90’s went on RICO charges. Not murder, drug running, extortion, etc.
Not sure the relevance of that to Mr. Vickers. Unless you are saying they were so successful at putting perceived bad guys away for BS process crimes that they purposefully made the sentences higher on those, which is why Vickers is facing 20 years for giving money to the wrong oligarch.
I'm also no longer as enamored with "The Untouchables" style of "We know this guy is a bad guy and we're going to get him no matter the tactics" as I once was. See thread on Trump's prosecution for how that goes. THe Cynic in me wants to ask if Chicago or New York actually got any safer for the average citizen after Capone and the Mobsters were put in jail. Or did random gangs and street crime take over with the PD's unable to control it?
But that's probably it's own thread.
-
Not sure the relevance of that to Mr. Vickers. Unless you are saying they were so successful at putting perceived bad guys away for BS process crimes that they purposefully made the sentences higher on those, which is why Vickers is facing 20 years for giving money to the wrong oligarch..
https://youtu.be/q5pESPQpXxE?si=kIOIlya2s5lXDeYY
-
https://youtu.be/q5pESPQpXxE?si=kIOIlya2s5lXDeYY
What movie is that, Inglourius Basterds? :laugh: (I think it is) And why'd Tarantino spell it like that? I need to see if that one's on Netflix...
-
What movie is that, Inglourius Basterds? :laugh: (I think it is) And why'd Tarantino spell it like that? I need to see if that one's on Netflix...
Yep
-
Pardon me for repeating myself:
Accusations are cheap. Defense is expensive.
It's so obvious.
"Throwing the book" at someone is a very effective tactic. You can probably nail them on one simple little thing or bankrupt them in legal costs.
Did Mr. Vickers get charged with Jaywalking yet?
This maybe sounds like another example of weaponizing the law.
-
yikes.
reminds me to stay under the radar as much as possible.
-
Pardon me for repeating myself:
Accusations are cheap. Defense is expensive.
It's so obvious.
"Throwing the book" at someone is a very effective tactic. You can probably nail them on one simple little thing or bankrupt them in legal costs.
Did Mr. Vickers get charged with Jaywalking yet?
This maybe sounds like another example of weaponizing the law.
That is what I was hearing. He was in a position where he had to bankrumpt himself with no guarnatee of a good outcome or plead guilty. Not sure if he was able to get some assurance of the outcome of that.
-
Pardon me for repeating myself:
Accusations are cheap. Defense is expensive.
It's so obvious.
"Throwing the book" at someone is a very effective tactic. You can probably nail them on one simple little thing or bankrupt them in legal costs.
Did Mr. Vickers get charged with Jaywalking yet?
This maybe sounds like another example of weaponizing the law.
Yep. When it's the government vs the individual, I simply don't take "guilty" pleas from the individual as an admission of guilt anymore. More than anything else, it's often a simple admission of not wanting their life left in ruins by the government machine. The guilty plea is Vickers cutting off his foot rather than both his legs from fighting the charges.
For more examples, refer to 06JAN.
-
Yep. When it's the government vs the individual, I simply don't take "guilty" pleas from the individual as an admission of guilt anymore. More than anything else, it's often a simple admission of not wanting their life left in ruins by the government machine. The guilty plea is Vickers cutting off his foot rather than both his legs from fighting the charges.
For more examples, refer to 06JAN.
The process IS the punishment.
-
This might be a more helpful response:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Vickers
Thanks ! ;)
-
I'm not really following this story but a conspiracy site I peruse had this rundown of what happened,
Basically the law says, under his ATF license situation, if a local Police Chief says he wants a demonstration of a newly made full auto, because he is thinking he may buy some for his department, the Chief gives the dealer a letter, so the dealer can import it and do the demo. Under the law, a dealer, with the letter, can request the approval from ATF, which Vickers was given here. Apparently Vickers was getting letters to do such imports, but they pulled all his text messages and showed he was going to the Chief and asking for the letter, and the Chief was giving it, but then there was no demo. Technically sounds legal to me. If the law says letter+approved request allows import, and you get a letter and an approved request, then it seems you fulfilled the requirements
-
Ayn Rand — 'There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. ... One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws." ― Ayn Rand
For illustrative purposes, I've often said that you can't drive two miles, park your car, walk around the block, get back in your car, and drive home without breaking three laws.
When was the last time you were armed or possessed a gun in your car and drove through a Post Office parking lot to drop a letter in one of the free-standing mailboxes?
Don't answer that. The walls have ears.
-
Don't answer that. The walls have ears.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Or it would be a laughing matter if it weren't so accurate ! :facepalm:
-
"The walls have ears" was a common warning about loose lips during WWII and possibly before and after. Spies were, in fact, just about everywhere.
It was used the same way "Loose lips sink ships" was, for the same reason, and there were many, many posters based on that idea .
Samples:
https://cdn.ecommercedns.uk/files/1/234911/5/8971925/ap408h-warning-walls-have-ears.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/0b/90/77/0b9077f1c6dabb0cb427320f4e1bbfbe.jpg
Terry, 230RN
PS. There was also a book with that title.
-
And the windows.
Remember tech where a invisible laser (IR or UV I believe) could be painted on a window and what was being said in the room could be read from the vibrations of the window glass picked up by laser reflections.
This was in the 90s IIRC. No telling what they can do now.