Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: MillCreek on October 23, 2021, 02:51:32 PM
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https://www.npr.org/2021/10/23/1048661086/11-days-after-a-moroccan-man-died-a-texan-is-arrested-on-a-murder-warrant?utm_campaign=npr&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_term=nprnews&fbclid=IwAR1OcQTqBJfChAXvVTmt_Q1mkiltw7OEgt7pwlA6hq7YeWkSh4XS1tMa4A8
https://www.kxan.com/news/local/caldwell-county-releases-more-details-on-deadly-shooting-outside-martindale-home/
I will be interested to see more information on this case, but based on what I read here, I would not have chased the car down the driveway nor shot through the window.
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Did he have to engage at all?
Why move-to-contact?
The car was leaving.
Did he close because he thought the driver was a threat?
If you think the driver is a threat, why close?
Claims he saw a gun, none was found.
Maybe if he'd not gotten so close he wouldn't have imagined a gun.
The best way to avoid a shooting is to not put yourself in a position where it might happen.
Taking another tack...
In past situations it's been claimed that, in certain circumstances, a moving car is a threat and you have a right to defend yourself.
Is a car moving away from you a threat? Regardless of which way it's pointed?
A moving car can certainly be considered a threat but what if you positioned yourself in way that it is? Does that give or remove any legal cover for you?
If, say, you stay on your porch and the car drives across the lawn at you, then sure that's a threat. But if you move to a point where you're touching it or in it's line-of-travel and it moves in way that could harm you, can you claim it's a threat when you put yourself in harm's way?
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Claims he saw a gun, none was found
That usually works for cops so....
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According to the local news, the car was sitting in the guy's driveway with the driver behind the wheel - which sounds like a very minor instance of trespassing at worst. Going outside to confront him and shooting as the guy is driving away sounds like the wrong thing to do. If there was a suspicious car parked in MY driveway, I'd be inclined - STRONGLY inclined - to call the police instead of going out to confront whoever it was.
Unless there's something else NOT reported in the news, I think the homeowner has some pretty big legal challenges ahead of him.
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If I saw a car parked in my driveway, I'd go out and see what they needed. They could be lost, they could need help, they could be delivering me something. I'd probably bring a gun, concealed, because I generally always have a gun.
This homeowner probably caused the driver to freak out and back away by tearing out of the house with a gun in hand. (A normally smart thing to so when someone comes at you with a gun)
There's not really a good justification for chasing down and shooting someone fleeing from you, trespasser or not.
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There's not really a good justification for chasing down and shooting someone fleeing from you, trespasser or not.
Good justification or not, it all comes down to the jury.
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/spokane-man-acquitted-in-shooting-death-of-fleeing-thief/
bob
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True, but I've no interest in being carried by six or judged by twelve.
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NPR never changes. ;/
"Such laws were meant to give legal support to people in rare self-defense instances, such as when someone defends their own property."
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If the guy was backing away then they're gonna have a tough time meeting the "threat of imminent serious bodily injury or death" benchmark Texas requires for use of deadly force.
Agree with Hank ... unless there are facts not being disclosed, this guy is in serious trouble.
Brad
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:O People who aren’t up to no good pull into people’s driveways all the time and sit there with the lights off. It totally doesn’t look suspicious as hell.
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I have literally had people pull into my driveway, sit there for a couple minutes digging on google maps, and then thank me for the directions I gave them when I went out to see what was up.
It's not that farfetched.
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CAIR-Austin says Dghoughi "was a Moroccan national who obtained a master's degree in financial analysis from Johnson & Wales University in Rhode Island after immigrating to the U.S. in 2013."
Doesn't sound like your typical street thug to me.
But yeah, even if he was up to no good he was already leaving the scene and no longer, if he ever was, a threat
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I have literally had people pull into my driveway, sit there for a couple minutes digging on google maps, and then thank me for the directions I gave them when I went out to see what was up.
It's not that farfetched.
I had a friend in WA that had 40 or so acres. His driveway was about 250 yds long running between two alfalfa fields. He had people (kids) come into his drive fairly often to do the horizontal mambo. He would walk up on them and give them the scare of their young lives and ask them to move along. He never had to shoot anyone but I am pretty sure he was prepared to do so if the need arose. ;)
bob
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I've pulled into people's driveways when lost.
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Good justification or not, it all comes down to the jury.
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/spokane-man-acquitted-in-shooting-death-of-fleeing-thief/
bob
The person shot here was a car thief who was driving away in the shooter's vehicle - which is NOT the same thing at all as in the case under discussion.
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I can only comment from the information I read. To keep it simple, a vehicle accelerating away is not a threat. Certainly lights off in the driveway at zero dark thirty is very suspicious and something that should put anyone in condition orange, but I think this was handled wrong.
That said, on a tangent, it's interesting to me that in the comments here, some may think it's perfectly normal for a stranger to park in someone else's driveway to check their phone or whatever. I'm wondering if that is a regional cultural thing. Even back in CA, just pulling into somebody's driveway for something unrelated to the homeowner would be considered weird. Especially when the driver could have just parked in front of the home on the street.
The latter is considered perfectly normal and most would not bat an eye. But the ten foot difference between the street and the driveway is like the difference between somebody walking stopping on the sidewalk in front of your house vs walking up to your front door and hanging out there. Kind of a "personal space" thing. Maybe in other parts of the country people think a stranger parking in your driveway is no big deal?
This is all assuming the guy in the link has a house in a standard neighborhood with a short driveway right off the street, vs some longer road-like driveway to get to his house. Those are different situations for situational awareness. I have a nearly quarter mile "driveway". I've seen people pulled into my road just off the county road before and just figured they were checking directions or something as there is nowhere to "park" off the county road without blocking said road. I've never thought anything of it.
Once some drives all the way down that road to my house, I go into condition yellowish orange even if it turns out to be one of the local church ladies coming to pass the Word. I'm most always armed of course when outside, but during the day can generally see who is driving from a far enough distance to see if they look normal or look like a meth-head. At 0200 though, someone driving all the way down my road to the house is a clear condition orange situation. If it's someone "asking for directions" most of my neighbors are right off the county road, so why did someone decide to drive all the way down my road instead? It hasn't happened yet, but if it ever does, it's a long gun situation for me, and starts with driveway floodlights first. What happens after that depends on the person who decided to drive all the way to my house in the middle of the night. The sheriff is likely 30 minutes out. Maybe longer if my call is, "There's a strange car in my driveway" vs "Someone is trying to break into my house."
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In my corner of the U.S. it is not at all "normal" or acceptable for strange vehicles to pull into private driveways at oh-dark-thirty and turn off the lights. I have occasionally pulled over to the side of the street or road to answer a cell phone call, but I would never consider pulling into someone's driveway to do so.
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I wouldn't call it "normal" here, either. Which is why I went out to see what was going on. It was definitely something out of the ordinary to be investigated, but not all the way to "walk outside with gun drawn" if you get the distinction.
And there's a lot of oblivious idiots in the world, so what is abnormal to me might seem reasonable to a lot of people.
FTR, my driveway is about 60' from road to garage door.
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In my corner of the U.S. it is not at all "normal" or acceptable for strange vehicles to pull into private driveways at oh-dark-thirty and turn off the lights. I have occasionally pulled over to the side of the street or road to answer a cell phone call, but I would never consider pulling into someone's driveway to do so.
I would agree it is not normal. It justifies taking a closer look, taking a picture of the license plate, or a call to the police reporting a suspicious car. It doesn't involve running after the car when it starts backing away in reverse. The chasing after the car a short distance is the part that bugs me about it. I can see following it to get the license plate number.
The homeowner is going to have a rough time legally. He was outside his house which changes things a little and there was no evidence of theft going on. Trespassing is going to be a tough sell and I have been told that alone doesn't justify pointing a gun at someone and threatening deadly force.
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The other thing that bugs me is the shooter claims he saw the driver with a gun. It is zero dark thirty, the car is backing away, and the shooter is able to see into the dark car sufficiently well to see a gun? Hmm.
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The other thing that bugs me is the shooter claims he saw the driver with a gun. It is zero dark thirty, the car is backing away, and the shooter is able to see into the dark car sufficiently well to see a gun? Hmm.
He probably saw a cell phone ...
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It is normal to pull into a driveway to [immediately] turn around. It's not normal to pull in and park unless you are lost and don't realize it, and are at the wrong address. In the latter case you don't turn off the lights and sit there. If you want to pull over and check your phone or your map, you do that at the curb.
This does not excuse the shooter.
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He probably saw a cell phone ...
Or a reflection of his gun?
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It is normal to pull into a driveway to [immediately] turn around.
Sure. I have often done that. Mostly in rural areas where I missed a turn and where it is too dangerous to try and do a three point on a narrow road. I'll pull into the first driveway where it looks like I won't be a pain and do the three point there. Just because of my own philosophy on private property, I've never thought of stopping there pulled in to check the navigation before I go back on my way. I only use it to turn around and then either get to my right road or drive until I find a safe place to stop and reorient.
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In the latter case you don't turn off the lights and sit there.
You do if you know you don't want to be rude and shine your bright vehicle lights into someones house at night, but need to check you phone for directions to where you are going.
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<evil>
Sounds like another "living while impaired" beer meets beer situation.
</evil>
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You do if you know you don't want to be rude and shine your bright vehicle lights into someones house at night, but need to check you phone for directions to where you are going.
No you don't. You back out and turn around, and park on the side of the road while you check your phone. You probably should have done that before you pull into a driveway to turn around.
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I'm one of those people with over a quarter mile driveway. If someone turns in my drive at night and turns the lights off it is normally a state trooper running radar and looking for drunken cowboys. Running up to him or her might not end well.
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Jim147 related:
"I'm one of those people with over a quarter mile driveway. If someone turns in my drive at night and turns the lights off it is normally a state trooper running radar and looking for drunken cowboys. Running up to him or her might not end well."
Heh. Late 1970s. My farm about 2AM, two miles out of town, woke up to the sound of a car on the gravel in the driveway. Could not see the car from my bedroom window. Grabbed my bedroom shotgun (BRSG) and rushed downstairs and looked out the window to see it was a Highway Patrol car. Leaned BRSG against the wall and went outside.
Nobody in patrol car. Nobody in barnyard parking area. WTF?
We had indoor plumbing, but the place still had a WPA (Works Progress Administration) one-hole outhouse, which we (I) rarely used, near another outbuilding.
Noticed some light coming out of the outhouse cracks, then the door opened and a Trooper came out with his flashlight. Shined it on me.
Upshot: Previous owner had given him permission to use the outhouse if need be, had never told me about it. Pleasant conversation, "Any time you need to stop, go ahead." Next day I put fresh TP and a flashlight out there.
Sidelight. One day I noticed the "2 X 4"s looked big. Measured them. They were an actual two inches by an actual four inches. Amazing.
Terry
REF (WPA. Article doesn't mention a lot of private projects, which constituted part of the "boondoggle." I won't tell anybody if you won't):
https://www.history.com/topics/great-depression/works-progress-administration
The barnyard with my LTD out there. Outhouse does not appear in this pic.
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"Sidelight. One day I noticed the "2 X 4"s looked big. Measured them. They were an actual two inches by an actual four inches. Amazing."
It wasn't until the 1960s that the 2x4 became standardized at the nominal 3.5x1.5 inches.
Before that you'd likely see actual dimensional lumber.
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I still have a little real 2x4 oak around here. I use them for barrel vises.
I have a good friend in town that has an incredible brick *expletive deleted*it house in his back yard. I just have the old little wood one.
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"Sidelight. One day I noticed the "2 X 4"s looked big. Measured them. They were an actual two inches by an actual four inches. Amazing."
It wasn't until the 1960s that the 2x4 became standardized at the nominal 3.5x1.5 inches.
Before that you'd likely see actual dimensional lumber.
They went through two intermediate stages on the way: 1-3/4 x 3-3/4, and then 1-5/8 x 3-5/8. The house I grew up in and still live in was built in 1950. The 2x4s measure 1-5/8 x 3-9/16, and that's after 70+ years of drying and shrinkage.
The 1-1/2 x 3-1/2 became the standard around 1975, IIRC.
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Can you guys stop comparing your wood?
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^ That was a gut bustin' knee slapper.
Needed a laugh. Hallowe'en soon, almost nothing but horror movies on TV. Watching Fronkensteen now which at least doesn't have someone getting smooshed by a hydraulic press and...and has Teri Garr in it. <BP spike>.....
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Damn.
Gene Wilder, Peter Boyle, Marty Feldman, Cloris Leachman, and Madeline Khan are all gone now.
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Can you guys stop comparing your wood?
As long as it isn't "morning wood" they are comparing ! :rofl:
In addition to Wilder and company, add Kenneth Mars too. Of the main cast, only Terri Garr is left and she is in her mid-70s.
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back in the good old days when I lived off grid north of nowhere Nevada - it was the beginning of burning man season .
We had a long, dirt/gravel driveway with big signs warning you to stop because guns were being used - stupid L.A types drove all the way to the front door.
They thought the signs were a joke and that they were on burningman property.
I was going to yell at them but one was a really pretty girl
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As long as it isn't "morning wood" they are comparing ! :rofl:
In addition to Wilder and company, add Kenneth Mars too. Of the main cast, only Terri Garr <BP spike> is left and she is in her mid-70s.
Ah, but she'll still be Roberta Lincoln in "Assignment: Earth" to me. <BP spike>
There was April Tatro as Isis the cat, too, but that wasn't Terri Garr. <BP spike>
Gary Seven: "That, Miss Lincoln, is simply my cat."
.
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Ah, but she'll still be Roberta Lincoln in "Assignment: Earth" to me. <BP spike>
There was April Tatro as Isis the cat, too, but that wasn't Terri Garr. <BP spike>
Gary Seven: "That, Miss Lincoln, is simply my cat."
That episode was to be a pilot for a spinoff series of the same name. Unfortunately it didn't work out.
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Sorry, MillCreek, but this incidental sidelight by me (Reply # 28) seems to have taken your thread off in new directions:
"Sidelight. One day I noticed the "2 X 4"s looked big. Measured them. They were an actual two inches by an actual four inches. Amazing."
A strange case deserving of more direct attention.
Mea culpa.
Penitent Terry, 230RN
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That episode was to be a pilot for a spinoff series of the same name. Unfortunately it didn't work out.
And that was a shame because the interplay between Garr and Tatro would have been epic ! :rofl:
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Well, back to the veer, I guess Sorry.
Agreed. Just watching it for the original showing, I thought it was kind of weird that they just showed the cat's human form briefly (April Tatro) and that was that. Fade to theme.
Wasn't until I hit the information on the net decades later that I found out about the "pilot" dealie. That explained a lot, and I agree with you.
I wonder how they'd have handled that... sisterhood, one complementing the other in Gary Seven's adventures, one-upmanship one-upwomanhip (meow!) with the winner "purring"(!)....?
I even wondered if there might have been an uprising from the public about some kind of "bestiality" question. They probably tiptoed around that before abandoning the project. (Remember: It was 1968.)
Kinda too bad, because Ms. Tatro was a very attractive lady, even though Ms. Garr <BP spike> plucked my heartstrings.
(Sorries again, MillCreek. But, you know.... APS.)
Terry, 230RN