Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: MillCreek on December 11, 2021, 11:54:35 AM
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https://www.seattletimes.com/business/this-chemical-is-in-short-supply-and-the-whole-world-feels-it/
More of the global interconnected supply chain issues. We have heard both Bogie and Boomhauer talk about this from the diesel perspective, and I did not know of it as a fertilizer component.
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I can make my own, thanks.
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I can make my own, thanks.
I wonder if that would trick the DEF sensor in modern diesels? It might not be good for the catalytic converter (they probably call it something else)
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"This chemical is in short supply"
Dems: More regulations and taxes inbound
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I can make my own, thanks.
The urine of nuns was key in developing a fertility drug: https://qz.com/710516/the-strange-story-of-a-fertility-drug-made-with-the-popes-blessing-and-gallons-of-nun-urine/
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Well if it has anything to do with fuel or transportation you know this admin will be right on it.
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Well if it has anything to do with fuel or transportation you know this admin will be right wrong on it.
FIFY
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Indeed. Nitrogen fertilizers are up around triple from last year. Farmers get boned again.
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That must be why a new fertilizer plant was built next to BASF in Freeport, TX. NeuAG I think.
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I understand some of the usual suspects are upset since some clever backyard mechanics have found ways to do without DEF in their trucks.
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It's used in the making of particle/OSB board as well.
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It's used in the making of particle/OSB board as well.
Well less of that crap would be a plus.
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Mixes nice with nitric acid too. [popcorn]
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Right now, from what I understand, DOT is allowing temporary bypass of the systems.... But that'll change. Let's see how many will manage long-lasting workarounds, and let's see how they will spoof inspectors.
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Right now, from what I understand, DOT is allowing temporary bypass of the systems.... But that'll change. Let's see how many will manage long-lasting workarounds, and let's see how they will spoof inspectors.
Not quite… They are allowing bypass of the quality/level sensors, drivers/operators will have to keep the tanks filled because the system still has to work overall
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I wonder if that would trick the DEF sensor in modern diesels? It might not be good for the catalytic converter (they probably call it something else)
DEF quality sensor has to see 32ish percent urea it uses an optical sensor. When I check the concentration on a machine for diagnostic purposes I use a refractometer to check concentration and test strips to check for oil contamination,
If the DPF/SCR system isn’t working within parameters whatever that engine powers will quickly be derated severely, there will likely be an alarm screaming in the operator’s ear which makes diagnostic REAL *expletive deleted*ing fun, and nothing in these systems are cheap to replace.
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Boomhauer, you know your wheat from your chaff. Is there a way to fool the sensors? Can the average driver do that?
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Boomhauer, you know your wheat from your chaff. Is there a way to fool the sensors? Can the average driver do that?
Average driver? No. Average mechanic? Also no.
Most of these sensors seem to share the same parts with some minor differences. The ones I deal with run off a protocol called CAN networking which is a digital signal. It’s not like the old days of sensors and switches where you could jump wires or use a potentiometer to send a resistance value back to the ECM or gauge and fool it easily.
Some manufacturers to bypass temporarily are sending out ECM files that temporarily disable the ECM from needing the input of the sensor but it’s on a case by case basis, has to be evaluated and approved by the manufacturer and so on for hoops to Jump through.
Also importantly, it’s not legal for me, without jumping through the hoops, to disable or spoof said sensor and return it to the customer as that is tampering with emissions systems.
There are some deletes out there as well but the fed gov can *expletive deleted*ck your with the long dick of the EPA especially on a commercial vehicle.
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Average driver? No. Average mechanic? Also no.
Most of these sensors seem to share the same parts with some minor differences. The ones I deal with run off a protocol called CAN networking which is a digital signal. It’s not like the old days of sensors and switches where you could jump wires or use a potentiometer to send a resistance value back to the ECM or gauge and fool it easily.
Some manufacturers to bypass temporarily are sending out ECM files that temporarily disable the ECM from needing the input of the sensor but it’s on a case by case basis, has to be evaluated and approved by the manufacturer and so on for hoops to Jump through.
Also importantly, it’s not legal for me, without jumping through the hoops, to disable or spoof said sensor and return it to the customer as that is tampering with emissions systems.
There are some deletes out there as well but the fed gov can *expletive deleted*ck your with the long dick of the EPA especially on a commercial vehicle.
Do you know what kind of digital signal? I assume it is an always "On" type signal.
At my plant, digital signals are typically just a 24VDC on/off circuit. Most safety stuff is always on so a failure trips the interlock.
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Do you know what kind of digital signal? I assume it is an always "On" type signal.
At my plant, digital signals are typically just a 24VDC on/off circuit. Most safety stuff is always on so a failure trips the interlock.
It modulates the voltage in a narrow range to send information as best as I can explain it. It moves too quick to see with a meter. That’s why it’s much harder to fool because you have to design your substitute device to be able to “talk” to the ECM.
Rather than design a tool to test with I fabricated a jumper cable enabling crossing the suspect unit to a known good machine and a known good unit to the suspect machine. Five minutes with the jumper cable and I can confirm it’s a bad sending unit by seeing that the fault follows the bad unit
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I wonder if that would trick the DEF sensor in modern diesels? It might not be good for the catalytic converter (they probably call it something else)
No, it won’t trick the sensors. And they call it an SCR or Selective Catalytic Reduction.
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I know a state police inspector...
I don't think they're worried, as long as the trucks are rolling, and have brakes that work, etc...
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I know a state police inspector...
I don't think they're worried, as long as the trucks are rolling, and have brakes that work, etc...
Truck won’t keep running without the urea. If they run out they’ll go into limp home mode and then won’t restart until they have urea available again.
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Unless they do a workaround.
That's the rub.
If the trucks are still running, I don't think it will be an issue except for the coasts.
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Unpopular opinion time! As I've gotten older, I've gotten a little softer on the hard-line libertarian "Keep your damn regs off my car, I'll throw tires in bonfires if I want, THE ATMOSPHERE IS MY TRASH CAN!"
Okay, I never really believed the last bit. But I did rather disagree with sweeping environmental regulations that impose massive costs on us, the end consumers. Let the consumers make their choices, and keep the government out of it.
But when I'm driving down the road and I'm behind:
- A beater 90's Honda the driver of which spent thousands on aftermarket bolt on crap, but couldn't be bothered to replace the valve seals that are dumping oil into the cylinders
- Someone that's irresponsible enough to think illegally modifying their diesel truck and "rolling coal" has any redeeming value.
- Someone who you can tell, by smell, doesn't have a catalytic converter
- Old diesel triaxles that billow clouds of incomplete combustion when they accelerate
...or countless other examples, I think that maybe I don't really want this crap in the air I'm breathing?
Free-market capitalism doesn't do a good job of dealing with negative externalities.
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I’m somewhat with you Nick. But, when CARB says the 99% reduction in NOx emissions isn’t good enough and demands it got to 99.3%, at a cost of billions in R&D, I’m less in agreement. NOx and particulate emissions are well past the point of diminishing returns such that further reduction is basically meaningless.
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I’m somewhat with you Nick. But, when CARB says the 99% reduction in NOx emissions isn’t good enough and demands it got to 99.3%, at a cost of billions in R&D, I’m less in agreement. NOx and particulate emissions are well past the point of diminishing returns such that further reduction is basically meaningless.
And I definitely agree with you there. There are points of diminishing returns, where the cost and effort just vastly outweigh any good it will do.
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I’m somewhat with you Nick. But, when CARB says the 99% reduction in NOx emissions isn’t good enough and demands it got to 99.3%, at a cost of billions in R&D, I’m less in agreement. NOx and particulate emissions are well past the point of diminishing returns such that further reduction is basically meaningless.
Not to mention other consequences. My old F250 Diesel was the first year of the DPF. I don't recall exact numbers, but my gas mileage was around 5MPG average less than the previous year's F250. When it went into regen, you could watch the MPG go down from 20ish to 12-13.
Perhaps the pollution controls are more refined now, but at that time it seems you were sorta trading one form of pollution for another, kind of like electric cars.
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Unpopular opinion time! As I've gotten older, I've gotten a little softer on the hard-line libertarian "Keep your damn regs off my car, I'll throw tires in bonfires if I want, THE ATMOSPHERE IS MY TRASH CAN!"
Okay, I never really believed the last bit. But I did rather disagree with sweeping environmental regulations that impose massive costs on us, the end consumers. Let the consumers make their choices, and keep the government out of it.
But when I'm driving down the road and I'm behind:
- A beater 90's Honda the driver of which spent thousands on aftermarket bolt on crap, but couldn't be bothered to replace the valve seals that are dumping oil into the cylinders
- Someone that's irresponsible enough to think illegally modifying their diesel truck and "rolling coal" has any redeeming value.
- Someone who you can tell, by smell, doesn't have a catalytic converter
- Old diesel triaxles that billow clouds of incomplete combustion when they accelerate
...or countless other examples, I think that maybe I don't really want this crap in the air I'm breathing?
Free-market capitalism doesn't do a good job of dealing with negative externalities.
I agree to a point. When I was a kid, I used to get a little sick if we went into Houston. After driving around in traffic all day, the fumes could be pretty bad. That was before unleaded gas and such. It is a great deal more pleasant to drive today than it was then. However, we got there a long time ago. I agree with sumpnz that most of the push now is well beyond reasonable emissions reduction.
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I’m somewhat with you Nick. But, when CARB says the 99% reduction in NOx emissions isn’t good enough and demands it got to 99.3%, at a cost of billions in R&D, I’m less in agreement. NOx and particulate emissions are well past the point of diminishing returns such that further reduction is basically meaningless.
Billions in R&D plus parts that need to be replaced often due to failure (I’ve had the DEF sensor fail on 20 hour machines), parts that need to be replaced due to idiots (such as pouring DEF into the hydraulic system), additional fuel burn to perform the regen and then halving the life of an engine (or worse) and the more onerous states forcing replacement (California) and it’s *expletive deleted*ing rediculous.
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Down to 14 2.5 gal totes of DEF at work. Hope we are able to get some more soon.
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Down to 14 2.5 gal totes of DEF at work. Hope we are able to get some more soon.
Have you tried putting the empties in the restroom and asking them to fill them up?
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We were down to one this evening.
Next major shipment is tomorrow. We'll see if any are included.
We had something like 10 gallons, total, of various 15w-40 diesel oil in the store...
Various. No Rotella, no synthetics.
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Well last time I asked how much nitrogen fertilizer was for a ton, the reply was $1550 if they can get it.
Several folks in the ag industry told me it isn't supply, it's the truck transportation from manufacturer or pipeline terminal to the next location is the biggest reason for the shortage and price spike. What is being moved now is nitrogen that was purchased last summer for fall application (Anhydrous, liquid, or dry nitrogen fertilizer).
Good luck getting any quantities of glyphosate now or next year too. Bayer (Monsanto) is going to quit packaging it for consumer use due to all the roundup lawsuits, still be available for ag and commercial use. Shortages right now is due to tech being made in China with manufacturing and supply chain issues to have it formulated here.
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Several folks in the ag industry told me it isn't supply, it's the truck transportation from manufacturer or pipeline terminal to the next location is the biggest reason for the shortage and price spike. What is being moved now is nitrogen that was purchased last summer for fall application (Anhydrous, liquid, or dry nitrogen fertilizer).
I could see that. I was thinking that the US domestically produced a good bit of ammonia. A brief bit of digging suggests that's true.
"Ammonia is produced at 32 plants in 17 states and shipped around the country by pipeline, rail, barge, and truck. According to the U.S. Geological Survey, U.S. ammonia production has been increasing since 2015, rising 46% from 11.6 million metric tons per year (mt/y) to 17.0 million mt/y in 2020. With growth in domestic production outpacing growth in demand, U.S. reliance on imported ammonia has decreased from 40% in 2010 to 13% in 2020."
However, natural gas is a major feed-stock into Haber-Bosch reactors, and I understand that it is getting more expensive. That probably doesn't help prices.
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We deal with tier 4 stuff and meanwhile I am told by heavy equipment auction regulars that the older equipment that can actually be self repaired gets snapped up and sent off-shore. China, India, whoever. Right to repair is huge, I have made plenty use of a $1500 JD backhoe, if I had to pay for a new one and dealer service I guess I would be back to a shovel.
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We deal with tier 4 stuff and meanwhile I am told by heavy equipment auction regulars that the older equipment that can actually be self repaired gets snapped up and sent off-shore. China, India, whoever. Right to repair is huge, I have made plenty use of a $1500 JD backhoe, if I had to pay for a new one and dealer service I guess I would be back to a shovel.
The kicker is the third world can buy all the non emissions and non electronic engines they want, brand new. They can also buy used Tier4 machines here and the manufacturer will provide the files and components to do a full delete of the emissions system.
I was up at the dozer plant in Peoria a few years ago and what was on the line was older model dozers for export.