Post by: The Rabbi on April 08, 2007, 02:22:11 PM
But the last time this happened it was all over the news, angry consumers demanding the gov't "do something" about prices, bloviating congressmen promising investigations into "price gouging", people blaming George Bush. Now I haven't seen a single news story on it.
What gives?
Post by: mtnbkr on April 08, 2007, 03:01:41 PM
I really appreciate the prices starting their upward climb just before we left for our 2500 mile tour of the southeast.
Chris
Post by: El Tejon on April 08, 2007, 03:31:42 PM
Drove to my nephew's birthday party in Indianapolis and the traffic was terrible.
Stay off my roads, people. Raise it to $9 a gallon and let me drive in peace. Only fitting as the roads are mine.
Rabbi, the answer to your question is the November '06 elections. If Democrats win, it cannot be the government's fault since Democrats run the Congress.
Post by: Laurent du Var on April 09, 2007, 06:05:00 AM
1 gallon = 2.69 $
(would that be leaded gas, unleaded or diesel ?)
Well, I'm thinking unleaded 95 pb, but do correct me.
Since I have no Idea what a gallon is I've looked it up
and one gallon contains roughly 3.785 liters
which makes 1 liter = 71 $cents
1 US $ = 75 Euro-cents
71 $cents = 53 Eurocents
1 liter (in France) = 1.33 Euros
1 liter (US) = 0.53 Euros
And now you know why in Europe we have those ridicolous Smart cars,
and everybody is switching to Diesel engines which are more polluting in my opinion. I used to drive a gas powered Mitsubishi 4 wheel drive and since I have the kids I changed to a Ford TD station wagon
Only 6 liters on 100 kms but no fun.
Thats why we need to stay buddy buddy with Iran, but I really don't know why no one mentions things like that chez vous.
10 years ag in CA I payed one dollar/gallon, or am I wrong ?
Post by: Art Eatman on April 09, 2007, 06:06:30 AM
Anybody ever check out the website of the EIA? Energy Information Administration? All manner of good info there.
Art
Post by: Gewehr98 on April 09, 2007, 06:12:05 AM
Post by: meinbruder on April 09, 2007, 06:22:58 AM
I've noticed gas prices have crept up over the last several months and now are at $2.69 at my local place. I assume this is common everywhere.
But the last time this happened it was all over the news, angry consumers demanding the gov't "do something" about prices, bloviating congressmen promising investigations into "price gouging", people blaming George Bush. Now I haven't seen a single news story on it.
What gives?
But the last time this happened it was all over the news, angry consumers demanding the gov't "do something" about prices, bloviating congressmen promising investigations into "price gouging", people blaming George Bush. Now I haven't seen a single news story on it.
What gives?
I wish the price was $2.69 in Portland; I just paid $3.07 for 89oct. I heard an interesting commentary a while back about who made what on the price of a gallon. The fed has more profit per gallon than the oil companies and that doesnt include state taxes. While the oil companies are drowning in money, their profit is generated on volume whereas the .gov taxes are parasitic. True, the .gov does build roads and all so it has no motive to reduce prices.
I saw an item on Yahoo not long ago, which suggests Hydrogen powered cars are being tested in California. The price of the engine will be significant but once the price of fuel is factored in theyll sell like the proverbial hotcake. Imagine the price of gas after a twenty percent, or more, reduction in demand.
}:)>
Post by: Sindawe on April 09, 2007, 07:03:09 AM
Yea, I recall all the pulling of hair and gnashing of teeth on MSM last gasoline prices got this high. I suspect is mix of people realize that gasoline is just gonna cost more, and MSM not having the Republicans in congress to blame this on. IIRC, oil companies earn nine cents profit on each gallon sold, while the feds get 18.4 cents per gallon and colorado gets 22 cents/gallon of tax.
http://www.gaspricewatch.com/usgastaxes.asp
Quote
I saw an item on Yahoo not long ago, which suggests Hydrogen powered cars are being tested in California.
Do you recall if that was using a fuel cell to generate electricity, or burning the hydrogen in a conventional internal combustion engine? The latter could be taken up now as a step toward the former moving into wide use.
Post by: RadioFreeSeaLab on April 09, 2007, 07:18:11 AM
Post by: richyoung on April 09, 2007, 07:25:53 AM
1 liter (in France) = 1.33 Euros
1 liter (US) = 0.53 Euros
...and you DO know that almost of that is addition tax your government charges you serfs, right?
Post by: Manedwolf on April 09, 2007, 08:43:41 AM
1 liter (in France) = 1.33 Euros
1 liter (US) = 0.53 Euros
...and you DO know that almost of that is addition tax your government charges you serfs, right?
I'm sure it makes working French proud to know that all that money is going to support the deliberately-unemployed cafe layabouts and jihadist nuts in the Parisian suburbs, and makes the English proud to know that it's going to support the fully one-third of the population that gets most of their income from the public dole.
Post by: Typhoon on April 09, 2007, 10:54:46 AM
Quote
2.69? I wish. I filled up at 3.39 a few days ago. Stupid southern California. Everything is over priced.
Dasmi, please,
Dontcha know that the extra $$ we pay here in sunny SoCal is for the excellent roads and air quality we enjoy???
Post by: auschip on April 09, 2007, 11:48:10 AM
Post by: Boomhauer on April 09, 2007, 12:13:50 PM
The many different blends that the oil companys are required to produce and the various chemicals that must be added are naturally going to raise prices. On top of that are the taxes that the Feds and the State governments pile on. Once the gov't introduces regs and taxes, it ain't gonna take them off.
Never mind that the regs don't actually do anything to help the enviroment. Another stupid thing is that we are not allowed to have many of the diesels that the Europeans have due to our enviromental regulations.
Yet people still believe two things:
1. President Bush and the Republicans set the prices
2. The oil companies are making "record" or "windfall" profits
Post by: Art Eatman on April 09, 2007, 01:14:12 PM
Gasoline tax income used to go to a dedicated "Highway Trust Fund", to be used only for highway construction. Seems fair; a user-pay deal. Then the do-gooders changed federal law so they could do mass-transit stuff with some of the money. Later, with inflation, the money proved to be insufficient to keep up with the demand for new construction, so general-fund revenues are added.
By and large over the last 40 years, McDonald's stock has been more profitable than Exxon's. But nobody ever yowls about McDonald's "obscene profits".
Katrina's impacts on Big Oil included a wipe-out of a Chevron rig in the Gulf. (And others.) $600 million, down the tubes. Chevron's Jack #6 in 7,000 feet of water with a 23,000-foot well has cost around a billion bucks, so far. Folks don't seem to realize that those "obscene profits" are plowed back into new wells.
Art
Post by: meinbruder on April 09, 2007, 07:57:54 PM
Quote
I saw an item on Yahoo not long ago, which suggests Hydrogen powered cars are being tested in California.
Do you recall if that was using a fuel cell to generate electricity, or burning the hydrogen in a conventional internal combustion engine? The latter could be taken up now as a step toward the former moving into wide use.There wasnt a mention of the method of combustion or any suggestion of fuel cell technology. Dad has been a gearhead since 1950 and thinks a direct combustion system would be the easiest to manage; an electrical separation system venting O on one side and non-compressed H on the other with an induction system injecting the H into the engine. The system would require a small containment vessel of H to start the engine and it would run just like a gas engine with the advantage of filling the tank from the garden hose in the front yard. The political hurdle is the numbskull that screeches about H-bombs on the highway being the end of the world, Remember the Hindenburg sort of fear mongering. I cant imagine a quart bottle of H being more flammable or explosive than the twenty-gallon gas tank under the seat of my Ranger.
}:)>
Post by: richyoung on April 10, 2007, 08:30:56 AM
Quote
I saw an item on Yahoo not long ago, which suggests Hydrogen powered cars are being tested in California.
Do you recall if that was using a fuel cell to generate electricity, or burning the hydrogen in a conventional internal combustion engine? The latter could be taken up now as a step toward the former moving into wide use.There wasnt a mention of the method of combustion or any suggestion of fuel cell technology. Dad has been a gearhead since 1950 and thinks a direct combustion system would be the easiest to manage; an electrical separation system venting O on one side and non-compressed H on the other with an induction system injecting the H into the engine. The system would require a small containment vessel of H to start the engine and it would run just like a gas engine with the advantage of filling the tank from the garden hose in the front yard. The political hurdle is the numbskull that screeches about H-bombs on the highway being the end of the world, Remember the Hindenburg sort of fear mongering. I cant imagine a quart bottle of H being more flammable or explosive than the twenty-gallon gas tank under the seat of my Ranger.
}:)>
Uh..that won't work. 2nd law of TD - you can't recover enough energy from the hydrogen to both power the vehicle AND electrolyze more hydrogen. You can't even just replace the hydrogen WITHOUT powering the vehicle - no system is 100% efficient.
Post by: Manedwolf on April 10, 2007, 08:39:36 AM
Quote
I saw an item on Yahoo not long ago, which suggests Hydrogen powered cars are being tested in California.
Do you recall if that was using a fuel cell to generate electricity, or burning the hydrogen in a conventional internal combustion engine? The latter could be taken up now as a step toward the former moving into wide use.There wasnt a mention of the method of combustion or any suggestion of fuel cell technology. Dad has been a gearhead since 1950 and thinks a direct combustion system would be the easiest to manage; an electrical separation system venting O on one side and non-compressed H on the other with an induction system injecting the H into the engine. The system would require a small containment vessel of H to start the engine and it would run just like a gas engine with the advantage of filling the tank from the garden hose in the front yard. The political hurdle is the numbskull that screeches about H-bombs on the highway being the end of the world, Remember the Hindenburg sort of fear mongering. I cant imagine a quart bottle of H being more flammable or explosive than the twenty-gallon gas tank under the seat of my Ranger.
}:)>
And, of course, there's the fact that the Hindenburg's hydrogen didn't explode, or it would have been colorless flame. That it was the aluminum oxide doped skin, basically rocket fuel, and it was far better PR for the Germans to blame America for not supplying them with helium than it was to admit that the skin was fatally flawed. The Graf had its skin changed to a nonflammable composition. They knew what caused it.
Post by: Paddy on April 10, 2007, 09:01:30 AM
BTW, we've got one Prius and one Toyota Echo in the family, so we're getting 40-50 mpg and gas prices don't really matter much.
Post by: Manedwolf on April 10, 2007, 09:36:39 AM
Gas prices can easily double, or even triple, for all I care. There are way too many big ass SUV's on the road anyway. Besides, the few oil companies who control the prices are entitled to as much profit as they can make. It's the American Way.....all about the bottom line and we're an easy, captive market.
BTW, we've got one Prius and one Toyota Echo in the family, so we're getting 40-50 mpg and gas prices don't really matter much.
BTW, we've got one Prius and one Toyota Echo in the family, so we're getting 40-50 mpg and gas prices don't really matter much.
Just know how much toxic metals you'll be putting into landfills and the water table when it's time to change out all those batteries in that thing.
Also realize what'll happen to it if any regular-sized car or SUV hits it.
Post by: Sindawe on April 10, 2007, 09:44:10 AM
Quote
Uh..that won't work. 2nd law of TD - you can't recover enough energy from the hydrogen to both power the vehicle AND electrolyze more hydrogen. You can't even just replace the hydrogen WITHOUT powering the vehicle - no system is 100% efficient.
Decouple the electrolysis of water to O2 and H2 from the engine and it might just work. I've following these folks for a while now: http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/ to see if they can get their product to the market. Photovoltaic cells on the roof would be great. I have several hundered ft^2 of roof that mostly just sits in the sun and gets hot.
Post by: 280plus on April 10, 2007, 10:11:39 AM
From right here in CT. I've been trying to get more info and a price on one but the sobs don't return my calls. My dream is a house with one of these that is heated and cooled by H, cooking and HW PLUS fill up your H internal combustion car. All from water. It can be plugged into the grid but draws relatively little juice so solar juice to at least supplement the grid is not out of the question.
Post by: Paddy on April 10, 2007, 10:13:43 AM
Quote
Just know how much toxic metals you'll be putting into landfills and the water table when it's time to change out all those batteries in that thing.
Insignificant, really, compared to total pollutants produced by bigazzed gas guzzlers. Quote
Also realize what'll happen to it if any regular-sized car or SUV hits it.
Actually, crash ratings are up in the 4-5 star ratings. Rollovers are non-existent, especially compared to SUV's (whose sales are plummeting BTW).
Post by: Thor on April 10, 2007, 10:41:37 AM
Post by: Paddy on April 10, 2007, 10:54:19 AM
Ever drive behind some stinkin' diesel pickup pouring out solid pollutants because the owner won't have it maintained? Ever try to pull out of some driveway and see around some HUGE SUV parked in your line of sight? Usually these oversize vehicles are occupied by a single a-hole. They take up entirely too much room and use too much fuel IMO.
Post by: auschip on April 10, 2007, 11:51:37 AM
I think you're jumping to conclusions. You seem to think we have some kind of environmentalist/whacko social conscience and that's why we own a Prius. We like the car, that's all. That IS ok, isn't it? I don't happen to like big noisy jacked up trucks, ok?
Ever drive behind some stinkin' diesel pickup pouring out solid pollutants because the owner won't have it maintained? Ever try to pull out of some driveway and see around some HUGE SUV parked in your line of sight? Usually these oversize vehicles are occupied by a single a-hole. They take up entirely too much room and use too much fuel IMO.
Ever drive behind some stinkin' diesel pickup pouring out solid pollutants because the owner won't have it maintained? Ever try to pull out of some driveway and see around some HUGE SUV parked in your line of sight? Usually these oversize vehicles are occupied by a single a-hole. They take up entirely too much room and use too much fuel IMO.
Pretty hard to haul a load of lumber in the back of a Prius. Different people have different preferences, I bought my Dodge MegaCab because I like it. That's ok, isn't it? You ever have to wait in line 10 minutes because a tiny car couldn't see over a bush and wouldn't pull out, or had to come to a complete stop, so a Honda could inch over a speed bump without bottoming out their undercarriage?
Edited to add, yes I am just giving you a hard time.
Post by: 280plus on April 10, 2007, 12:16:19 PM
Quote
I don't happen to like big noisy jacked up trucks, ok?
See, now there's something fundamentally wrong with that...Just kidding...
Oh, last I looked we were ~$2.89 for regular here in central CT
Post by: Boomhauer on April 10, 2007, 01:49:03 PM
Quote
Also realize what'll happen to it if any regular-sized car or SUV hits it.
Quote
Actually, crash ratings are up in the 4-5 star ratings. Rollovers are non-existent, especially compared to SUV's (whose sales are plummeting BTW).
It's not just the crash rating. Its the problem that EMS is not gonna cut you out if they need to until they figure their way around the wires, even if the computer does cut them off. Plus if the vehicle catches on fire, I have heard that the FD's will not approach it without Hazmat gear.
Plus, smaller cars are naturally going to be less survivable than larger cars. The one and only reason sales of SUV's are dropping is that gas is priced higher. I still see plenty of them on the road. I wish I could drive one, but I could not afford the fuel right now. I am happy with my S-10 Blazer. Good fuel economy and still a manly vehicle.
I would, however, like a diesel engine for my Blazer. If they just made one that was of similar size and power as the 4.3L and would bolt right in...Post by: thebaldguy on April 10, 2007, 04:09:47 PM
http://www.gasbuddy.com/
Check it out! Maybe save a buck or two.
Post by: Firethorn on April 10, 2007, 06:11:13 PM
Just know how much toxic metals you'll be putting into landfills and the water table when it's time to change out all those batteries in that thing.
Also realize what'll happen to it if any regular-sized car or SUV hits it.
Also realize what'll happen to it if any regular-sized car or SUV hits it.
Wouldn't go to a landfill, just like how most of old cars don't end up in the landfill. The metals are too valuable and are actually easily recovered for reuse. Lead and Nickel are worth money, and the right processes recycle the electrolyte quite effectivly. Most people don't worry about rechargable AAs only because they're so small. Once you're talking about a pack of a couple hundred D+, they sit up and take notice.
Lead-Acid battery recycling has been done for decades.
Lithium Ion is, once reduced(IE burned) safer than many things that do end up in landfills. It also has the potential to be as cheap as lead-acid. Recycling wise, I'm not sure of it's characteristics, but I'm sure they'll find a way.
Finally, the Ford Escape stands testiment to how a hybrid doesn't have to be small... And that's not even including the hybrid locomotives in use/under development. Jan2006 popular mechanics had that one. The operational one is a trainyard mule. Apparently it's efforts are sporatic enough that it's very efficient to have a hybrid drivetrain and a much smaller engine keeping the batteries topped off.
Post by: Laurent du Var on April 10, 2007, 11:05:19 PM
""...and you DO know that almost of that is addition tax your government charges you serfs, right?""
Yes I do and I will vote accordingly on the next presidential elections, even though there is no candidate who promises that there will be tax cuts on gas and that is all I can do, but do tell me are there any taxes making your price go up a 120 % in ten years ?
""I'm sure it makes working French proud to know that all that money is going to support the deliberately-unemployed cafe layabouts and jihadist nuts in the Parisian suburbs, and makes the English proud to know that it's going to support the fully one-third of the population that gets most of their income from the public dole.""
I'm not sure if the gas taxes go exactly there, but I'm glad that in your country
there are no deliberately unemployed jihadist nuts in your suburbs !
Seems to be all fine on your end.
Post by: Manedwolf on April 10, 2007, 11:48:05 PM
I'm not sure if the gas taxes go exactly there, but I'm glad that in your country
there are no deliberately unemployed jihadist nuts in your suburbs !
Seems to be all fine on your end.
there are no deliberately unemployed jihadist nuts in your suburbs !
Seems to be all fine on your end.
Yes, if they run around burning cars, as well as chasing all the people off a bus and burning that, we generally shoot them, not stand back and watch.
Post by: Laurent du Var on April 11, 2007, 12:06:26 AM
Estimates of the number of lives lost during the unrest vary between 50 and 60, with as many as 2,000 persons injured. Estimates of the material damage done vary between about $800 million and $1 billion. Approximately 3,600 fires were set, destroying 1,100 buildings, with fire calls coming once every minute at some points. About 10,000 people were arrested. Stores owned by Korean and other Asian immigrants were widely targeted, although stores owned by whites and blacks were also targeted. Despite the race riot image the event retains, much of the looting and violence was done by young men, black, Hispanic, and white, and much of the looting was opportunistic theft of luxury goods. Criminals used the chaos to their own benefit, and street gangs settled scores with each other and fought the police. ---
""Yes, if they run around burning cars, as well as chasing all the people off a bus and burning that, we generally shoot them, not stand back and watch.""
Do you ?
Post by: mtnbkr on April 11, 2007, 02:35:25 AM
Chris
Post by: doczinn on April 11, 2007, 06:42:59 AM
Post by: Headless Thompson Gunner on April 11, 2007, 07:40:18 AM
Post by: Laurent du Var on April 11, 2007, 08:35:07 AM
But since we are comparing, nobody died.
Just some ten thousand cars went up in flames.
Ten thousand too many if you asked me .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_civil_unrest_in_France
I don't want this to be a contest, but we all have problems everywhere and it is futile to point while your own Korean owned liquor store starts smoking...
Post by: MillCreek on April 11, 2007, 09:52:44 AM
This is about 25 miles north of Seattle. I was in downtown Seattle yesterday evening, and the prices at the gas stations in the downtown area were about $ 3.25 per gallon.
Post by: Manedwolf on April 11, 2007, 11:11:53 AM
--- Stolen from Wikipedia :
Estimates of the number of lives lost during the unrest vary between 50 and 60, with as many as 2,000 persons injured. Estimates of the material damage done vary between about $800 million and $1 billion. Approximately 3,600 fires were set, destroying 1,100 buildings, with fire calls coming once every minute at some points. About 10,000 people were arrested. Stores owned by Korean and other Asian immigrants were widely targeted, although stores owned by whites and blacks were also targeted. Despite the race riot image the event retains, much of the looting and violence was done by young men, black, Hispanic, and white, and much of the looting was opportunistic theft of luxury goods. Criminals used the chaos to their own benefit, and street gangs settled scores with each other and fought the police. ---
""Yes, if they run around burning cars, as well as chasing all the people off a bus and burning that, we generally shoot them, not stand back and watch.""
Do you ?
Estimates of the number of lives lost during the unrest vary between 50 and 60, with as many as 2,000 persons injured. Estimates of the material damage done vary between about $800 million and $1 billion. Approximately 3,600 fires were set, destroying 1,100 buildings, with fire calls coming once every minute at some points. About 10,000 people were arrested. Stores owned by Korean and other Asian immigrants were widely targeted, although stores owned by whites and blacks were also targeted. Despite the race riot image the event retains, much of the looting and violence was done by young men, black, Hispanic, and white, and much of the looting was opportunistic theft of luxury goods. Criminals used the chaos to their own benefit, and street gangs settled scores with each other and fought the police. ---
""Yes, if they run around burning cars, as well as chasing all the people off a bus and burning that, we generally shoot them, not stand back and watch.""
Do you ?
Well, if someone charges onto a bus, armed, and threatens all the people on it, I do have the right to shoot them in self defense, and I have the right to carry a tool with which to do so.
Do you?
Post by: Laurent du Var on April 11, 2007, 03:13:32 PM
Neither do you if you were in New York.
Just ask Bernie "you don't look too bad, here is another one" Goetz.
Post by: Firethorn on April 12, 2007, 02:13:22 AM
No, I don't.
Neither do you if you were in New York.
Just ask Bernie "you don't look too bad, here is another one" Goetz.
Neither do you if you were in New York.
Just ask Bernie "you don't look too bad, here is another one" Goetz.
Whatever you were attempting to post appears to have been stripped.
But yeah, the whole San Fran/New York/Chicago things are examples of what happens when you try to impose european gun control on american cities. It gets ugly.
Post by: richyoung on April 12, 2007, 04:53:28 AM
""...and you DO know that almost of that is addition tax your government charges you serfs, right?""
Yes I do and I will vote accordingly on the next presidential elections, even though there is no candidate who promises that there will be tax cuts on gas and that is all I can do, but do tell me are there any taxes making your price go up a 120 % in ten years ?
Sorry, I thought you were complaining about U.S. gas being less expensive. To answer your question, taxes on our gasoline have been raised several times over hte last 10 years, as well as other regulations and such having the same effect as taxes by increasing the cost, such as mandating oxegneated fuesl, summer blends, etc. Still, the bulk of the raise in cost is due to market fluctuation, and the inflation inherent in a fiat currency.
Quote
""I'm sure it makes working French proud to know that all that money is going to support the deliberately-unemployed cafe layabouts and jihadist nuts in the Parisian suburbs, and makes the English proud to know that it's going to support the fully one-third of the population that gets most of their income from the public dole.""
I'm not sure if the gas taxes go exactly there, but I'm glad that in your country
there are no deliberately unemployed jihadist nuts in your suburbs !
Seems to be all fine on your end.
I'm not sure if the gas taxes go exactly there, but I'm glad that in your country
there are no deliberately unemployed jihadist nuts in your suburbs !
Seems to be all fine on your end.
We got people busting in here to go to work....
Post by: Art Eatman on April 12, 2007, 05:47:20 AM
Since people get all whiney if the gas tax is raised, the shortfall in construction money comes from the general revenue funds, which are, of course, taxes. Go figure. But, that spreads the load a bit.
I ran across an article just yesterday that said that for the next several years, the price of gasoline on the west coast will average some fifty cents higher than it will east of the Rockies. It's a supply thing. Not enough oil fields, refineries or pipelines.
A consumer-advocacy lady called for legislatures and regulators to "do something". She alleges that the oil companies are "refusing" to build new refineries or expand old ones, in California. That's about as good a "Duh?" as I've run across in a while.
Of course, if the legislators do something to help that poor, innocent consumer, prices will indeed drop until existing storage is consumed and producers quit shipping into a no-profit area. Which, of course, means no gasoline at all, or a helluva black market. That's called "interesting times".
Art