Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Hawkmoon on April 26, 2022, 05:30:03 PM
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Back "in the day," when I was in school I had a Honda CB350, which was a nice little multi-purpose motorcycle that wasn't a touring bike, wasn't a motocrosser, wasn't a touring bike ... but was good for just getting around. It was a style that I have seen referred to as the UJM -- 'Universal Japanese Motorcycle." Yamaha had a similar bike, except theirs was a 2-stroke. Suzuki had one, Kawasaki had one -- they all made them.
Today the UJM seems to have disappeared from the marketplace, unless I'm just not looking in the right places. All I could find is this:
https://www.kawasaki.com/en-us/motorcycle/w/retro-classic/w800?cm_re=GLOBALNAV-_-PRODUCTGROUPLIST-_-MPP
That's the right styling, but I don't really need an 800cc engine, and I'm mostly interested in fuel economy for commuting to work, so a similar style bike with a smaller engine (maybe around 450 to 500cc) would probably be ideal. Does such a thing exist?
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Does such a thing exist?
Sort of. The UJM kind of went the way of the Dodo Bird. Market forces seem to have been the driving force. Kind of sad.
https://www.bestbeginnermotorcycles.com/best-250cc-motorcycles/
https://moneyinc.com/best-500cc-motorcycles-money-can-buy/
There are alternatives.
https://www.royalenfield.com/us/en/motorcycles/
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Here's Honda's 500 street bike. They have a 300cc version too, which has a little more power than the old CB 350, but today's roads have higher speeds and the 300 doesn't have a lot of reserve power at 75-80 MPH. The Royal Enfield is probably closer to the spirit of the original CB350.
https://powersports.honda.com/street/standard/cb500f
(https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.84es505KAk72sBd3LWcqCQHaFj?pid=ImgDet&rs=1)
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Honda Rebel 1100.
Don't let the 1100 put you off. It's a nice, compact twin rather than a more UJM-typical transverse four. It's still a Rebel in spirit, just a little more grow'd up. No sportbike seat scrunch, no bloated weight to toss around, just a fun bike that's straightforward, comfortable, and easy to ride.
https://powersports.honda.com/street/cruiser/rebel-1100
IF that's more bike than you want, there's always the 500.
https://powersports.honda.com/street/cruiser/rebel-500
Brad
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Here's Honda's 500 street bike. They have a 300cc version too, which has a little more power than the old CB 350, but today's roads have higher speeds and the 300 doesn't have a lot of reserve power at 75-80 MPH. The Royal Enfield is probably closer to the spirit of the original CB350.
https://powersports.honda.com/street/standard/cb500f
(https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.84es505KAk72sBd3LWcqCQHaFj?pid=ImgDet&rs=1)
That's definitely not a UJM. The amount of daylight between the rear tire and the rear fender tells you that. Not what I'm looking for ... not even close.
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Car styling has changed since the 70's too:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7e/1978_Chrysler_Cordoba.jpg/1280px-1978_Chrysler_Cordoba.jpg)
They are out there, griz mentioned the Honda CB500, there is also the Suzuki SV650, Kawasaki Z400 and Z650, they have a retro version too.
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Honda Rebel 1100.
Don't let the 1100 put you off. It's still a Rebel in spirit, just a little more grow'd up with a compact thumber twin instead of the intro-level Reb's single. No sportbike seat scrunch, no bloated weight to toss around, just a fun bike that's straightforward, comfortable, and easy to ride.
https://powersports.honda.com/street/cruiser/rebel-1100
IF that's more bike than you want, there's always the 500.
https://powersports.honda.com/street/cruiser/rebel-500
Brad
I've known about the Rebel since the first one came out 30 or 40 years ago. It's also not a UJM, it's a mini-cruiser. Also not what I'm looking for.
The Royal Enfield RKL suggested is closer to the concept, except that I'd prefer a small twin rather than a single cylinder thumper. But I guess one can't have everything.
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How old are you and how fast is your reaction time with phone using unattentative car, suv, and truck drivers?
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About the only recent model I can think of with styling that's true to the stereotypical UJM is the Honda CB1100. Looks like nice ones are going for around $8k. More bike than you said you wanted, though.
Brad
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The Suzuki W800 is closer, although I would still prefer something in the 400 to 500cc range. They used to have a W650, but it didn't meet emissions standards and was replaced by the W800.
https://www.kawasaki.com/en-us/motorcycle/w/retro-classic/w800
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I still kick myself that I did not get a Suzuki TU-250 when they were still being made. I wish Suzuki would bring it back. I always liked the UJMs.
ETA: I always thought the Royal Enfield Himalayan looked good, but I wonder about an inexpensive motorcycle built in India.
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I still kick myself that I did not get a Suzuki TU-250 when they were still being made. I wish Suzuki would bring it back. I always liked the UJMs.
I wish I had known about the TU250 when it was still being made.
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Kawasaki Z650rs
https://www.kawasaki.com/en-us/motorcycle/z/retro-sport/z650rs?cm_sp=JAN2021NPL-_-HPP:Z650RS-_-LEARNMORE
Brad
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That's definitely not a UJM. The amount of daylight between the rear tire and the rear fender tells you that. Not what I'm looking for ... not even close.
Ok, if it's classic styling you're looking for there is the British option:
(https://images.triumphmotorcycles.co.uk/media-library/images/motorcycles/modern-classics/my21/t100/family%20page%20images/bonneville-t100-family-multi-content-block-1-630x788.jpg)
But obviously that's not going to be met the J requirement in UJM. Honestly, it's going to be difficult to find something with the wheel close to the fender. Bikes then only had three inches of wheel travel and even street bikes have twice that now. You could get an actual 1974 CB350. They're out there and you'd have the fun of dealing with carburetors and 50 year old suspension systems.
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Griz beat me to it but the Street Twin is pretty close to what you want, if with too much engine again.
They are fun bikes though, and classy looking.
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Kawasaki Z650rs
https://www.kawasaki.com/en-us/motorcycle/z/retro-sport/z650rs?cm_sp=JAN2021NPL-_-HPP:Z650RS-_-LEARNMORE
Too much air between the rear tire and the rear fender.
You're probably too young to remember the UJMs.
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Ok, if it's classic styling you're looking for there is the British option:
(https://images.triumphmotorcycles.co.uk/media-library/images/motorcycles/modern-classics/my21/t100/family%20page%20images/bonneville-t100-family-multi-content-block-1-630x788.jpg)
Yeppers -- I've seen that, drooled over it, and wished I could afford it. A friend had a Bonneville when I had the Honda CB350. Another classmate had a Triumph Daytona, which was basically the same bike as the Bonneville but with a 500cc engine instead of the 650. If they'd make a new Daytona today, it would be exactly what I want (except that I probably still couldn't afford it).
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You'll nearly have to go used/vintage to get very close to the UJM concept.
I would suggest finding a MSF Basic Rider course and signing up. You'll ride their bikes and it'll give you a chance to get your bike legs back while.your looking for something you might like.
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The enfield things are VERY popular with my skinny jeans neighbors.
Me? If I was going to pick a commuter bike?
https://suzukicycles.com/scooter/2022/burgman-400
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The enfield things are VERY popular with my skinny jeans neighbors.
Me? If I was going to pick a commuter bike?
https://suzukicycles.com/scooter/2022/burgman-400
That would be good for inner city. My commute is 25 miles each way, over a mix of back roads, 2-lane state highways, and a stretch of interstate highway. I'm more comfortable with a motorcycle than with a scooter.
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Uh... That is a 400cc scooter.
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^^^ I had a 2004 Aprilia Scarabeo 500 maxi-scooter that could go 80 easily. I only traded it in because parts were hard to come by and had to be shipped from Italy.
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Uh... That is a 400cc scooter.
Yes -- it's a 400cc SCOOTER -- with nothing down the middle for your knees to grab while riding.
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I be manspreading.
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Of all the times to ride a bike, commuting hours would be my last choice. Nobody is really driving in their car. They are all thinking about being late, getting home, did the dog get fed, will the raise come through, etc. The most dangerous time to ride.
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It's okay if you aren't competing with a bunch of insane cagers... My neighborhood has a LOT of 50cc and up scooters. Plenty of gentrified motorcycles too.
South of here, you get Harleys. North side, you see a lot of the ricer crotch rockets.
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Too much air between the rear tire and the rear fender.
You're probably too young to remember the UJMs.
Nope. Remember them vividly. Got interested in bikes right as the UJM craze hit full fruition, late 70s and early 80s.
Also, the reason most UJMs had less room between tire and fender was a decided lack of rear suspension travel. Add to that the only suspension adjustment being simple preload and it was a choice between rock hard or testing the bump stops, at least for us big guys.
Brad
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What are you looking to spend? We've pretty much run down the current "retro" UJM esque bikes in this thread. The only ones we skipped are like Norton's or Ducati's, which just get more expensive. Maybe look used?
Are those Ural motorcycles still sold in the States? Not really UJM aesthetic, but retro and small engine.
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Last time I got the itch I was looking at super moto style bikes like the DRZ400 as a lightweight sit-up option.
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Last time I got the itch I was looking at super moto style bikes like the DRZ400 as a lightweight sit-up option.
I rode the smaller model, I think a DR250, in my motorcycle training class. It was a little high for me to get on, but great fun otherwise. I seriously considered one of the DR series after the class ended.
Of course, not at all the styling that Hawkmoon is looking for. Might have to go vintage to get exactly what you want, but that carries its own hassles.
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Yep:
(https://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/resizer/JWRQBoeK8j47JRh5vR2fbPqQ2Ys=/480x640/smart/cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/octane/UMUFZ4YLQ2ATTWAJNSYDHQUAMU.jpg)
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How about the Yamaha SCR950?
Scrambler-esque style, Japanese. V-twin 942cc engine. Don't let the displacement fool you, it's a pretty low tech engine. Only puts out about 50hp or so, very low compression ratio, pretty good fuel economy at 51mpg. $8700 new, very gently used ones seem to sell around $6500 or so right now.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fridermagazine.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F08%2FYamaha-SCR950-beauty-R3qtr.jpg&hash=47747af93f08176efb338ff2b2e03ebc0918b4f6)
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Ryan Fortnine has a clever video on the bike on Youtube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tv-1wmRSxvM
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Yamaha V-star 250: https://www.yamahamotorsports.com/sport-heritage/models/v-star-250
(https://yamaha.scdn5.secure.raxcdn.com/library/img.jpg?id=6138c2072a0ab61eac47b8d5&w=1200)
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I've been considering one of the Tao Tao 150cc scooters. It'd be fine for most of my daily driving. Altho I have also been considering doing that VW-based trike too... But that would actually need garaging, while I could put the scooter in a shed or even wheel it into my existing garage (which has a milling machine sitting in front of the car door).
If I had the cash, I'd source a conex full of Chinese scooter parts - there are a lot of folks who come in my store looking for repair stuff, and the only real source for them is the internet.
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AZRedhawk44's pic reminds me that I still lust after a Triumph Scrambler.
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Whatever you do, at least around here, do not refer to a Triumph as a Trump. The owners get really twitchy.
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I've been considering one of the Tao Tao 150cc scooters. It'd be fine for most of my daily driving. Altho I have also been considering doing that VW-based trike too... But that would actually need garaging, while I could put the scooter in a shed or even wheel it into my existing garage (which has a milling machine sitting in front of the car door).
If I had the cash, I'd source a conex full of Chinese scooter parts - there are a lot of folks who come in my store looking for repair stuff, and the only real source for them is the internet.
Again, Ryan Fortnine has a great video on Chinese motor assembly quality.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GAUo8eUXeU
Stay away from anything with a Chinese motor.
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Again, Ryan Fortnine has a great video on Chinese motor assembly quality.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GAUo8eUXeU
Stay away from anything with a Chinese motor.
Very surprised by the Royal Enfield. I was still running under the presumption they were meh quality rehashes of 50s designs built with woodshop-level tooling. That level of manufacturing precision takes a fundamental commitment to quality and some serious investment in technology. Duly impressed.
Brad
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^^^I have read a lot of reviews of the Royal Enfield Himalayan and actually inspected them at a dealer 50 miles away. The consensus of the reviews is that the fit, finish and reliability is still far behind Japanese/Thai/Taiwan manufacture.
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Looking at some of the videos posted I learned something I didn't know. Royal Enfield makes a 650 twin. Very classic look and a pretty simple compared to some of the more modern bikes, air cooled for instance. Not a hot rod by today's standards, but it sounds like an affordable and practical bike.
(https://www.bennetts.co.uk/-/media/bikesocial/2018-october-images/royal-enfield-interceptor/royal-enfield-interceptor_016.ashx?h=390&w=740&la=en&hash=60AC3122B9EB4A6A0E4EBA771EFD870CB6CF494A)
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Hawkmoon - that CB350 you had, was that a twin or a quad? Back in the early/mid-70s, I had a Honda CB360 that was a twin while Honda also had 4 cyl. 360 at the same time (4 across). The tranny was "1 down/5 up" 6 speed gearbox and I would sometimes cruise at 75-80. It had the padded backrest ("sissy bar"), elevated frame-mounted footrests, and "cruise control" flip lever. That bike was so well balanced that I could set the cruise and lean back and drive by just leaning slightly into the curves or change lanes. All I had to worry about (besides other drivers) were "road hazards" (road debris, RR tracks, intersections, etc.)
Dumped that bike in the early '80s when I hit a bad slab of concrete on a St. Louis interstate and rolled about 200 feet but was lucky enough to walk away with just pavement rash. :facepalm:
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Stay away from anything with a Chinese motor.
A guy I know rebuilds the dang things with a bit of the ol' evil... I've seen an alleged 49cc that would do over 50mph...
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The other thing to keep in mind is quality of overall design and handling. Urban motorcycling has its risks, and responsive controls that you don't have to constantly fight can help mitigate those risks a lot.
This video happens to be about "adventure" bikes rather than scooters, but the point it makes still stands.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP9OjCb7y5g
Chinese made CSC motorcycle vs Indian made Royal Enfield Himalayan. Similar displacement, similar cost. But the gearing selection made by the RE designers is far superior, and the clutch design and feel on the RE is far better. Having to fight a clutch or deal with poorly designed gearing while in urban traffic can lead to distraction or even an out of control event on your bike. As witnessed in the video, the CSC rider loses his line and puts blue sky under his wheels while hopping a big rock accidentally because he's fighting the clutch and gearing selections.
It's also telling that this reasonably experienced motorcycle reviewer that chose the CSC for this video had ALREADY dumped the bike once before even beginning the filming process for this video.
Both offerings are cheap, but the Chinese one just wants to separate you from your money with a disposable product. The Indian one has a greater commitment to providing value.
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Today the UJM seems to have disappeared from the marketplace, unless I'm just not looking in the right places. All I could find is this:
https://www.kawasaki.com/en-us/motorcycle/w/retro-classic/w800?cm_re=GLOBALNAV-_-PRODUCTGROUPLIST-_-MPP
That's the right styling, but I don't really need an 800cc engine, and I'm mostly interested in fuel economy for commuting to work, so a similar style bike with a smaller engine (maybe around 450 to 500cc) would probably be ideal. Does such a thing exist?
A couple other bikes that come to mind that might suit your styling preference as well as displacement and power range:
1. Husqvarna 401 Svartpilen.
(https://azwecdnepstoragewebsiteuploads.azureedge.net/PHO_BIKE_90_RE_svartpilen-401-my22-90-right_%23SALL_%23AEPI_%23V1.png)
Yes, it looks a little modernized and spacey. I didn't like it when I first saw one a couple years ago, but it's grown on me. I'm actually a little disappointed that Husky discontinued the Svartpilen 701. The 401 is high on Youtube's "YammieNoob" channel as a first bike, or a fun commuter/play bike. If I ever come across a 701 of these used for a good price I'll probably snatch one up. Heck, maybe even the 401. Its power is exactly in the right place for enjoying this bike in real environments, not race tracks. It will be lively and fun for rural highway carving, nimble in urban settings, and capable of Interstate travel though I would not encourage a cross country trip on it. $5400 new.
Honestly I can't encourage you to look at this bike enough.
Husky also has "Vitpilen" bikes which have sportier handlebars and a more aggressive rider position. I like the Svartpilen more, much closer to UJM/Scrambler position and style. I'd really like to see a Husqvarna "Norden" style 701 adventure bike, aiming for a high-300 pound weight range, with an aluminum or steel subframe rather than the 701 Enduro's plastic subframe. Give it a 250 mile range with an appropriate sized tank put into that metal subframe (the 701 Enduro's rear subframe IS the gas tank, making pillion use or packing luggage stressful on it) and it'd outsell so much.
2. Royal Enfield Himalayan.
(https://www.royalenfield.com/content/dam/royal-enfield/usa/motorcycles/himalayan/colours/new-colors/studio-shots/rock-red/side-view.png)
It's not a rocket. But it is a tank. 400-ish cc, I forget the exact size. Its power is all torque. Yes, it'll do 80mph if you need it to. It excels in the 30-50mph range, but it can pick its way through scree very well at low speeds, and low speed handling is something oft overlooked with motorcycles that is a pretty important trait once you own one. RE is introducing a scrambler version of this bike that will have a smaller front wheel for a little more nimble urban handling. Around $5000 new.
This is a Round The World bike. A dutch gal that goes by "ItchyBoots" on Youtube has taken one of these through SE Asia and the Middle East. If you beat on it like a dirt bike then you'll likely break something (footpegs, mirrors, control levers, accessories like that). But the core of the bike is very solid.
And it's got some degree of that retro styling you seem to want.
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I'm echoing tokugawa re the commuting except for when traffic is jammed up. I noted recently where under some circumstances a motorcycle can be used between cars in their lanes.
Here was my CL-350, practically the same as the CB except for the upswept tail pipes, especially designed to burn left legs if you laid it down. I have no idea why this picture is reversed, but it's even the same color and year as mine. I will say riding a bike was a good way to pretend you're invisible --which transferred nicely into driving a small car.
This one was in a for sale ad. I gave mine away to a neighbor after I decided two wheelers were not for me.
(https://www.cubefigures.com/sh-img/maxresdefault_honda%2Bcl350.jpg)
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Hawkmoon - that CB350 you had, was that a twin or a quad? Back in the early/mid-70s, I had a Honda CB360 that was a twin while Honda also had 4 cyl. 360 at the same time (4 across).
Mine was a 1970 twin. The 4-cylinder was a 1971 -- it came out a few months after I bought my twin. I rode one at the dealership -- it was a very sweet machine.
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What you need is a Suzuki SV 650 about a year 2000 model. Hard to find clean, as many have been thrashed in club racing, but they are a seriously nice bike. Suspension is so so, probably need the carbs jetted, but very nice. Reliable as a rock, 70 hp, 420 lbs. And cheap.
https://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/mcy/d/portland-suzuki-2001-sv650/7472427396.html
This is a later model, injected IIRC.
https://seattle.craigslist.org/see/mcy/d/seattle-2003-suzuki-sv650/7473340071.html
https://seattle.craigslist.org/see/mcy/d/mercer-island-2006-sv650-red-motorcycle/7465770495.html
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What you need is a Suzuki SV 650 about a year 2000 model. Hard to find clean, as many have been thrashed in club racing, but they are a seriously nice bike. Suspension is so so, probably need the carbs jetted, but very nice. Reliable as a rock, 70 hp, 420 lbs. And cheap.
https://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/mcy/d/portland-suzuki-2001-sv650/7472427396.html
This is a later model, injected IIRC.
https://seattle.craigslist.org/see/mcy/d/seattle-2003-suzuki-sv650/7473340071.html
https://seattle.craigslist.org/see/mcy/d/mercer-island-2006-sv650-red-motorcycle/7465770495.html
Yep 2003 was the first year for efi. I've got a 2003 sv1k. Gsxr suspension was basically bolt on, cheap and available.
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Here was my CL-350, practically the same as the CB except for the upswept tail pipes, especially designed to burn left legs if you laid it down. I have no idea why this picture is reversed, but it's even the same color and year as mine. I will say riding a bike was a good way to pretend you're invisible --which transferred nicely into driving a small car.
This one was in a for sale ad. I gave mine away to a neighbor after I decided two wheelers were not for me.
(https://www.cubefigures.com/sh-img/maxresdefault_honda%2Bcl350.jpg)
Yep. The CL350 was exactly the same as my CB350 other than the pipes.
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Yammie Noob does a review of the Royal Enfield Interceptor 650.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1I1fXtafJ8s
TL:DR version... he likes it a lot. Nice, well-rounded bike, especially for the price.
Brad
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I've seen several reviews of the Royal Enfield line up. Not really hearing any serious negativity.
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Another Royal Enfield review: https://www.hotcars.com/2022-royal-enfield-classic-350-review/
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Another Royal Enfield review: https://www.hotcars.com/2022-royal-enfield-classic-350-review/
Looks interesting. Thanks.
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I just did a 200 mile ride yesterday morning. I'd never been up to the top of Mt. Ord, a 7100 foot member of the Mazatzal range, so I decided to remedy that during the ride. It wasn't a terrible little two-track gravel road up there, but there were some steep spots, some scree to look out for, and some baby-head rocks in the road that could cause problems for your oil pan if you weren't paying attention.
Once I arrived up-top, I noticed two motorcycle campers parked among the juniper and pine forest along the road. One was on a Yamaha XT250, and the other was on a Royal Enfield Classic 350. I was kind of surprised to see a riding duo consisting of those two bikes; Mt. Ord is only accessible off Hwy 87 and it's a steep highway that gets 70+mph traffic despite the desert heat and the steep grades. Underpowered bikes stay away from this road, and neither of these bikes can be considered highway regulars.
Props to the RE rider though for getting his machine up there.
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The RE bikes look cool, but I haven’t heard too many good things about them and their build quality.
If I were looking for a small bike (and have been for my daughter), I would take a hard look at a Yamaha MT-03, BMW 310GS, or Honda rebel- to cover the bases of sport, dual-sport, and cruisers
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If I were looking for a small bike (and have been for my daughter), I would take a hard look at a Yamaha MT-03, BMW 310GS, or Honda rebel- to cover the bases of sport, dual-sport, and cruisers
That covers all the bases except the class I'm looking for, unfortunately.
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That covers all the bases except the class I'm looking for, unfortunately.
I really think Royal Enfield is your ticket, Hawkmoon. They are NOT the same outfit they were 30 years ago. Just as Boeing has sunk, so has Royal Enfield risen. You've got to keep in mind that the UJM of the 70's was the cheap rickety import of ill repute back then, and only in hindsight did their reliability be proven. RE is on the cusp of that right now, and they have that neutral/naked look you're looking for. The Japanese bikes have largely moved on from that.
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I've got to agree with AZRedhawk44, Royal Enfield is today a much better motorcycle than the UJMs of the '70s and '80s.
Looking at the requirements you have spec'd, in my opinion it is the only thing out there that comes close.
There are 3 dealerships in Connecticut, go look at the bikes.