Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: K Frame on August 25, 2022, 08:30:28 AM
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I've been fascinated with, and have studied, the development of self-contained firearms cartridges for years. I have a collection of several hundred unique cartridges, and that doesn't even scratch the surface of the very tip top of the massive iceberg of cartridges that have been developed since the mid 1800s.
An area of special fascination for me has always been the transition boundary between black and smokeless powders. I always thought I had a pretty good grasp on what the various companies were doing around this time.
I got a bit of a shock last night when I found a partial scan of an 1896 Union Metallic Cartridge company catalog. http://cartridgecollectors.org/conte...d%20GRAHAM.pdf
The first page is black powder cartridges... the second page is their new, expanded line up of smokeless cartridges (the smokeless offerings in the 1895 catalog are significantly fewer).
A few of the startling revelations from that catalog...
On the black powder page (first page) it shows the .303 Savage. It was my understanding that that cartridge was never offered commercially as anything other than a smokeless powder round...
It also shows the .25-36 Marlin as a blackpowder cartridge. Again, I thought that this was another cartridge that was smokeless from its initial release, even though it had been developed for black powder.
The real head scratcher, though, is on the second (smokeless) page...
There's a cartridge listed as the .30 Remington, and it's got a rim. I'd never heard of a rimmed .30 Remington before.
Then I found this Remington advertisement... (note what it says about magazine rifles!!! :rofl:)
(https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.035be11a43e7f35fcf6ece2311181cbc?rik=VRtPocmytJjKxw&riu=http%3a%2f%2fi381.photobucket.com%2falbums%2foo255%2fFEDE_EL_SOMALI%2f01_zps445a01e4.jpg&ehk=c0%2bHP9wN5bSm%2f%2fEa8AdEjg5xVwLmkRl%2bdF55uO9wu1I%3d&risl=&pid=ImgRaw&r=0)
And it shows a .236 rimmed Remington... ANOTHER cartridge with which I'm not familiar...
So, I plug .236 Remington cartridge into the googletron and I find this incredible bit of information...
https://www.gunauction.com/buy/14492229#:~:text=The.236%20Remington%20cartridge%20was%20a%20unique%2C%20rimmed%20experimental,their%20own%20smokeless%20powder%20cartridge%20for%20military%20use (https://www.gunauction.com/buy/14492229#:~:text=The.236%20Remington%20cartridge%20was%20a%20unique%2C%20rimmed%20experimental,their%20own%20smokeless%20powder%20cartridge%20for%20military%20use).
Wow.... every time I open one of these old ammunition catalogs I learn something new and, in some cases, startling.
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It also shows the .25-36 Marlin as a blackpowder cartridge. Again, I thought that this was another cartridge that was smokeless from its initial release, even though it had been developed for black powder.
Any cartridges which use the "decimal-number" convention, or at least any I've ever come across, have black powder origins. I kinda remember there were a couple of very early smokeless cartridges which attempted the BP naming convention, but manufacturers quickly discovered that was... bad.
The real head scratcher, though, is on the second (smokeless) page...
There's a cartridge listed as the .30 Remington, and it's got a rim. I'd never heard of a rimmed .30 Remington before.
If memory serves, it was for the Remington-Lee rifles. Its only association with the .30 Remington we know today is the name.
Brad
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"Any cartridges which use the "decimal-number" convention, or at least any I've ever come across, have black powder origins. I kinda remember there were a couple of very early smokeless cartridges which attempted to use the BP naming convention, but manufacturers quickly discovered that was... bad."
It's always been held that there were only three such cartridges -- .25-35 Winchester, .30-30 Winchester, and .30-40 Krag (which, of course, was a military cartridge first).
There are some very early references to a .30-45 Springfield cartridge, as well. That nomenclature never made it to the public, though, and it became known as the .30-03.
Manufacturers didn't find that the old naming system was bad, they were just quickly finding out that smokeless powders were a LOT more varied and versatile and such a naming convention would never hold up. What started life for one company as a .30-22 might be a .30-28 from another manufacturer using a different powder but a .30-18 from a third company.
But, as I said about the .25-36, I always understood that it had been initially developed as a blackpowder cartridge but, by the time it was ready for release it was quickly switched to smokeless powder to compete with the .25-35 Winchester and was never offered as a black powder round.
"If memory serves, it was for the Remington-Lee rifles. Its only association with the .30 Remington we know today is the name."
No, I don't think that works out timeline wise.
The Remington-Lee was dropped from manufacture in 1892 and there's absolutely no indication it was ever offered for cartridges other than the .45-70 and .43 Spanish and never made the transition to a rifle capable of firing smokless powder with jacketed bullets.
The .30 Remington Rimmed (and the .236) were apparently both developed as purely smokeless cartridges with jacketed bullets to take advantage of the new technology, and flopped in the market place.
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The Remington-Lee was dropped from manufacture in 1892 and there's absolutely no indication it was ever offered for cartridges other than the .45-70 and .43 Spanish and never made the transition to a rifle capable of firing smokless powder with jacketed bullets.
I've seen an RL in .30-40 Krag, but don't know if it was made that way or converted. It was on a high-end collector's "Super Rare You Pay What I Tell You To" table at Wannenmacher's.
Brad
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I've seen a RL in .30-40 Krag, but don't know if it was made that way or converted. It was on a high-end collector's "Super Rare You Pay What I Tell You To" table at Wannenmacher's.
Brad
My guess is that it was either a one-off tool room rifle or it was a conversion.
Well *expletive deleted*it...
I just visited the Wikipedia page for the .30-40 to see if it had anything about its development background and it includes the Remington-Lee on the list of rifles for which it was chambered.
And leave it to Gun Jesus to fill in at least some of the gaps...
https://www.forgottenweapons.com/rifles/remington-lee-1899/
I'm still not finding anything to indicate that the 1899 Remington-Lee was offered in .30 Remington or .236 Remington, but it would have been a very easy thing to have chambered them for those cartridges since they were all very similarly dimensioned.
Gun Jesus says that some were chambered in the rimless 6mm Lee Navy cartridge...
https://www.forgottenweapons.com/remington-lee-model-1899-a-final-smokeless-version/
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My late uncle had a Remington Rolling Block in I think .32-20. It was pretty much a wall hanger for as long as I can remember.
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That would likely have been one of the small frame commercial models, very possibly a Number 2.
They were quite popular. IIRC they were chambered in a TON of cartridges for the US commercial market.
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As someone who knows very little about this subject, it is interesting to read these threads and contemplate all the calibers and cartridges that used to be made.
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I thought there were only muskets, until Adolf Hitler invented the AR-14, at the 1980 Republican National Convention.
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As someone who knows very little about this subject, it is interesting to read these threads and contemplate all the calibers and cartridges that used to be made.
Good for many hours on the toilet.
https://www.hornady.com/shop/books-and-video/hornady-reloading-handbook-11th-edition
https://www.sierrabullets.com/product/sierra-6th-edition-rifle-handgun-reloading-manual/
Brad
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I thought there were only muskets, until Adolf Hitler invented the AR-14, at the 1980 Republican National Convention.
That was the AK-15 designed by Charlton Heston. The AR-14 is a top secret government design stolen by the NRA.
Brad
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I thought .30-06 referred to ".30 cal, introduced in 1906", not any BP origins, but I am not an expert.
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I thought .30-06 referred to ".30 cal, introduced in 1906", not any BP origins, but I am not an expert.
It is, but it came about as as a slang-shortened version of what you said (".30 caliber, model 1906"), not as a manufacturer's original cartridge designation.
Apologies, I should have made that distinction on my first post. I was talking about pre-1900ish cartridges that bore the moniker from the manufacturer, not later calibers which got their name from wildcatting, contractions, etc (7mm-08, 25-06, .30-338, et al).
There was a fair bit of cartridge naming weirdness in the 19-oughts, a combination of BP naming tradition holdover and lots of confusion about "that new-fangled smokeless stuff".
Brad
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Side note: even though it's single shot, and I prefer the "complicated magazine arms" I'd give them $15 for that Remington. Maybe even $20.
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I thought .30-06 referred to ".30 cal, introduced in 1906", not any BP origins, but I am not an expert.
It does.
Just as the .30-03 refers to .30 caliber, Model of 1903.
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Just as the .30-03 refers to .30 caliber, Model of 1903.
Speaking of 1903, couple years ago a friend gave me her father's home-sporterized Enfield. At some point I need to cast the chamber and make sure someone didn't have a go at it as well.
Stock work is pretty rough but barrel seems crowned properly and remaining metal is still untouched as far as I can tell. It wouldn't take much to really nice up the stock, mostly some contour sanding and a few coats of Tru Oil.
Brad
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There's a cartridge listed as the .30 Remington, and it's got a rim. I'd never heard of a rimmed .30 Remington before.
Wasn't there also a .30 rimfire in there somewhere, not necessarily from Remington?
Brad
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Good for many hours on the toilet.
Maybe try some fruits and vegetables first, before you give yourself a fissure?
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Wasn't there also a .30 rimfire in there somewhere, not necessarily from Remington?
Brad
Yes. There were .30 Short and .30 Long rimfires shown in the UMC catalog.
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I think someone had a bad day...
https://youtu.be/fAS2FjFwUX4
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It does.
Just as the .30-03 refers to .30 caliber, Model of 1903.
And the 9mm Nato, created in 1909, by Dr. Ernst Nato.
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Peek and poke around in this folder: http://herohog.com/images/guns/ammo/index.html
and there some not included in here as well: http://herohog.com/images/guns/ammo/
:old:
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Yes. There were .30 Short and .30 Long rimfires shown in the UMC catalog.
Any idea how widespread they became? I know large bore rimfires had pretty much died out by the time smokeless hit the scene, but never delved much into it beyond that.
Brad
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Any idea how widespread they became? I know large bore rimfires had pretty much died out by the time smokeless hit the scene, but never delved much into it beyond that.
Brad
The .30s were really niche cartridges. I believe both were originated for the Sharps 4-barrel pistols in the 1850s or 1860s. They were used in a few other guns from Colt and other manufacturers, but never gained much traction compared to the .32 and .38 rimfires.
Once centerfire cartridges became common after the Civil War the rimfires did start tailing off. That started with advances in technology that allowed for deep drawing of brass for larger cartridges. Brass was stronger than the previously used copper, but it also was harder to for the firing pin to dent the case hard enough for rimfires to work consistently.
Once smokeless powder became the norm starting in the 1890s and chamber pressures started going up the days of the rimfire were pretty much numbered.
But, most rimfires, even the early, less popular ones like the .30s, stayed in production until one of the two great production line cleansings of the 20th century -- World War I and the Great Depression/World War II.
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But, most rimfires, even the early, less popular ones like the .30s, stayed in production until one of the two great production line cleansings of the 20th century -- World War I and the Great Depression/World War II.
I had no idea they were being produced that late. I wonder if anyone still has the tooling to spin up a batch. There are probably some collectors who might appreciate them. They'd be hellishly expensive, but still nice to have.
Brad
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By 1910 UMC was no longer listing the .30 Long. It was dropped earlier than I thought it had been.
Whoa. The .30 Short was apparently popular enough that it made it past WW I with Remington but it was gone from the 1923 catalog.
And by 1923 Remington-UMC had dropped production of the Spencer cartridges.
As for the tooling, I'm guessing not. My guess is that much of the old and largely obsolete production equipment was replaced with new equipment during World War II and the old equipment recycled for the war effort.