Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: T.O.M. on February 04, 2023, 01:08:36 PM
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After carrying a Smith J-frame as my"always" handgun, I have come to the conclusion that 6/7/8/10 rounds of 9mm is better than 5 rounds of .38. So, I'm considering one of the plentiful small 9mm pistols on the market. I know many of you are fans of the SIG P365. I've handled a Walther PPS M2, which felt pretty good. A friend swears by his S&W Shield 2.0.
Anything else I should put on the list to check out? My only requirements are that the pistol must be common enough that mags and holsters are readily available.
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I have a G43 that I like - especially for how thin it is, but if I were doing it today I’d consider one of the double stack, itty bitty nines.
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I will only add that you should check out numerous variations of the P365. My big thing with smaller guns has always been that I felt like I was giving something up to go smaller. The P365XL was the first such gun that didn't make me feel like I was compromising over a larger gun. The regular P365 still made me feel like I was compromising.
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In addition to those you named, there's the Ruger EC9s and Max-9. EC9s is a 7+1 at just over 17 ounces. Max-9 is 2-ish ounces more and 0.05" wider, but is a 12+1.
EC9s is usually $280-290 street but regularly goes on sale for $260 or so (like now at Academy). Max-9 normally streets at $490-500, but regularly goes on sal for around $430 (like now, again at Academy).
I have a couple of EC's. Bought them as gun safe extras when they went on a stupid low $239 sale a couple years ago. Nice feel in the hand. Seem to shoot just fine. Never fondled a Max-9.
Brad
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Hellcat
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I would vote for the P365, P365XL, or S&W Shield plus. Depends on preference perhaps.
I assume that you carried a snubby because it was small and easy to carry. IMO, the P365 is the smallest of the bunch and it still fairly easy to shoot. I figure it fits all the reasons you carried a small revolver in the first place. I was gravitating to larger pistols, but snapped back to my P365 as it is just small, thin, and easy to carry. I have to think less about what shirt I am wearing. The Shield plus grip is just a little larger which might fit your preferences. It will take up more space on the belt IMO.
P365 has lots of magazine sizes available up to 15 rounds or more (17 now). You can swap out the grip module and just about every other part of the gun with Sig or 3rd party parts. Just about everyone makes a holster for it.
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I have the P365XL also, but I don't have great holster for it with the red dot mounted.
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My wife likes her glock 43. I carry an itty bitty Kahr pm9 but it’s become a has been in the market.
Lots of compact 9mm options out there. Springfield hellcat, S&W, etc
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Sign me up next to Brad as a fan of the LC/EC-9s pistols. I have a LC-9s for carry in business clothes and a EC-9 s that lives permanently in my bicycle handlebar bag and another EC-9s that lives permanently in my motorcycle handlebar bag. Note that Washington state now bans any magazines over 10 rounds.
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My EDC is also a Smith J-frame with laser sight in a pocket with no holster. Just looks like a buncha junk in there, no "printing" at all. Extra speedloader for five more rounds in other pocket. But I figure if I need more than five rounds, the problem is bigger than a J-Frame anyway, My heavy artillery has gone down as my years go up and I still occasionally carry a Kahr CW 9 with a spare magazine. Used to carry a 1911 --in winter, no problem.
In summer, for a while for some reason Hawaiian shirts were frequently seen in Denver and I took advantage of that for concealment. Then I found out that some group of them paranoid right-winger deplorables favored Hawaiian shirts and I quit that. I guess that fad has waned by now.
Carried a Llama .380 for a while.
I kind of figure the shorty barrel J-frame with +Ps can make more noise than a July 4th aerial salute and that alone ought to offer some discouragement.
And when I worry a bit about the "inadequacy" of the .38 I think of the one-shot at Lee Harvey Oswald and all the damage that .38 slug did in there.
Terry, 230RN
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After carrying a Smith J-frame as my"always" handgun, I have come to the conclusion that 6/7/8/10 rounds of 9mm is better than 5 rounds of .38. So, I'm considering one of the plentiful small 9mm pistols on the market. I know many of you are fans of the SIG P365. I've handled a Walther PPS M2, which felt pretty good. A friend swears by his S&W Shield 2.0.
Anything else I should put on the list to check out?
Those I have hands on with are KT PF9, Springfield XDS, Mossberg MC1SC, and Kahr CM9.
The Keltec was "OK, I guess". Not made currently. Didn't think I'd want to keep it forever, so sold it off.
The Springfield I bought with the proceeds from the PF9. Never a problem with it. Factory mags go from the 7 round short mag to a 9 round extended. Never a functional problem with it. Carried it for quite a while. Always thought it was difficult to shoot well, and I speculate that had to do with how flat the package was.
The Mossberg and the Kahr (as well as a .40 S&W CM40), are guns I picked up used for cheap over the past couple years.
The Kahrs are as tiny as I'd feel comfortable shooting. 6 round standard mag (in 9mm). Excellent triggers.
The Mossberg is a Gock 43 copy (mostly). It can use Glock 43 mags, striker, and recoil assembly. And it is surprisingly pleasant to shoot. The trigger is the usual Glock vague "kids plastic space gun" feel. The unique takedown sounds funky, but is trivial to do. And safe.
My only requirements are that the pistol must be common enough that mags and holsters are readily available.
Kahr thinks the world of their magazines, and thinks you ought to be happy to spend $45 on a little 6 round metal box.
Best holster availability is, as always, 1911, Glock anything, j-frame, and whatever the current hotness (P365) is.
My EDC is also a Smith J-frame with laser sight in a pocket with no holster. Just looks like a buncha junk in there, no "printing" at all. Extra speedloader for five more rounds in other pocket. But I figure if I need more than five rounds, the problem is bigger than a J-Frame anyway,
Over the years since this state got (legal) carry, snubby 38 has been my carry probably half the time.
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Definitely try the 365. Great trigger.
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SWMBO and I each have Glock G43 sub-compacts that we really like. I'm likely to buy a compact or mid-size handgun at some point to complement it. I shoot better with a slightly heavier gun as it steadies my hand more.
Edited to mention the G43 is my daily carry weapon.
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I love my Walther CCP. Fits my hand like a dream.
Got it in 2019.
But I'm still carrying my S&W Model 042.
Yep, 5 rounds of .38 Special.
As I opined a few years ago...
I'm not sticking around for some Doc Holiday shootout.
My handgun is, in reality, the starter pistol on the Fat Man's Mad Dash Tactical Retreat.
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Oh, and remember Sig's standard marketing model.
Monday -- Introduce Model P%@:(!!!, which quickly becomes very popular.
Tuesday -- Discontinue handgun, including any and all support and parts, including magazines. Watch the sporting world burn.
Wednesday -- Magazines for the P%@:(!!! being doubling in price every 20 minutes, and will continue to do so for at least the next year.
Thursday -- Introduce, to great fanfare, the P%@:(!!!2.1, which is just different enough from the Model P%@:(!!! that not thing one will interchange.
Friday -- Knock off early and travel to Munich for Oktoberfest and slam some beer, sausages, an Frauleins.
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How small do you want to go? I have a SIG 938 that is my most carried small gun because it slips into the cargo pocket on my shorts just fine in a De Santis holster. My next step up is a S&W M&P Shield 9 2.0 Performance Center, Either of those work for me.
I like this site for comparing sizes when looking at different guns.
https://www.handgunhero.com/
bob
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I had (note past tense) a Kahr P9, and what a troublesome POS that was. To their credit, Kahr replaced it, and I traded the (new) replacement for a G26 which actually works.
When Walther brought out their P99, several showed up at the local IDPA matches - for a while. They were abandoned as unreliable. Later Walthers supposedly work better, but Walther has a bad reputation of discontinuing support (things like spare parts) for older models as soon as they introduce something new.
If I wanted a smaller pistol, I would consider the Hellcat or one of the smaller S&Ws - probably one of the latter, as they seem to fit my hand better. Go to the S&W forum (http://smith-wessonforum.com/) to see a LOT of discussion of current and older S&Ws.
I absolutely would be sure any new pistol I bought was "optics ready."
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Forgot to mention that I also really like how my Ruger American fits in my hand. I've still not had the chance to shoot it yet, but I suspect that I just might like it enough to also put it into rotation as a potential carry gun.
However, it's heavy enough that I'd likely carry it in a shoulder holster.
That's one thing I didn't mention about my 042 S&W... It absolutely disappears into my jeans pocket in a pocket holster. I really like pocket carry. Works really well for me
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I have a Ruger EC9S I carry every day.
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The Hellcat with the 13 round mag was the one I liked the most. But I didn't buy one so can't give you a report on the functionality. I still run with my XD45 Service.
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The Hellcat with the 13 round mag was the one I liked the most. But I didn't buy one so can't give you a report on the functionality. I still run with my XD45 Service.
Mine has been flawless and I don't think I've seen a single review where they had any sort of issue from day one of release.
Contrast that with the 365 when it first came out.
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The Springfield I bought with the proceeds from the PF9. Never a problem with it. Factory mags go from the 7 round short mag to a 9 round extended. Never a functional problem with it. Carried it for quite a while. Always thought it was difficult to shoot well, and I speculate that had to do with how flat the package was.
I haven't had that problem with the XDs. If it fits your hands (as it does mine) it can be a great choice. I wouldn't have bought it if the 365 (and similar guns) had been on the market at the time, however.
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My P365 has been reliable since I got it. Should be over 1000 rounds through it by now. I bought it less than a year after it came out. Whatever issue they had, they fixed it. Not something anyone needs to worry about now.
My XD pistols haven't been perfect, but mostly ok. I have an XDs 45 that has worked well.
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Really like my P365XL, I didn’t even need to buy a new holster because it fits securely in a 1911 Commander holster. I shoot it a lot more accurately than the XD-S with a lot less felt recoil than the Kahr PM9 that I had. The Shield Plus as nice as the 365, but is a little bit bigger. Can’t go wrong with either the 365 or shield plus.
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It's kinda hard to go too wrong if you stick with the major brands and dip into the micro double stacks.
Sig P365/365X/365XL family, G43/43x/48 w/ Shield mags, the Hellcat, M&P Shield Plus is where I would start. They are all good guns and popular enough you should be able to find a holster pretty easily.
I like my P365XL (as I've often said on here) as a great micro handgun, but I am often reminded that except for carrying, a micro handgun isn't very good. When I run my tiny gun in a class or on a timer I am forced to remember that even going to a G19 sized gun makes performance much easier.
Just temper your expectations.
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Somebody mentioned the "Kahr P9," which reminded me of the Kel-Tek PF9. I had one and I could not get that thing to feed three rounds. I sent it back, they claimed they fixed it, and it still stopped at two rounds. I started to call it my two-round gun with a handy compartment to hold four extra rounds. Got my money back from the seller and he claims he had no problems with it. Subsequent research indicates that Kel-Tek had two barrels for it with differing feed ramps.
My J-Frame is a Smith 442-2 "AIRWEIGHT" and as I said, it disappears in my khakis without a holster. It seems the cylinder breaks up the outline enough to make it look, as I said, like a pocketful of junk. Yeah, bitch to me about not using a holster and I'll bitch right back to you about using a holster.
I also had the titanium/scandium version of this revolver (called the "AIRLIGHT," I believe) with identical mechanics (with one exception) to my Airweight.
This Mofo kicked so bad it was esentially unsuitable for defense except with light .38s. I could not fire 158 grain standards with it and sold it. The thing was so light when you picked it up, your hand, expecting a little heft, would go upward a surprising amount. It felt like an empty plastic water pistol. The mechanical exception was a tiny steel plate in the frame above the cylinder gap to eliminate gas cutting of the exotic metal frame.
In fact, this gun caused the origin of my expression "if the gun were as light as the bullet, it would be just as dangerous on the back end." Ike Newton said that with slightly different wording. Good old Ike.
My Kahr CW9 is great all around, but in$tead of firing 200 round$ for reliability, I keep a full-house hollowpoint in the chamber and ball rounds in the magazines. It does print like mad in a pocket. I put a laser sight on it, like with all my defensive sidearms.
Terry, 230RN
ETA I noticed most pics of the Airlight (with the atomic symbol) do not show that protective little steel insert, but I finall found one that does:
https://www.gunsamerica.com/userimages/5212/904827148/wm_7422694.jpg
It's obvious as hell in the actual gun, but a little hard to see in most pics.
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I know my original post talked about capacity, but there's more to it than capacity. Seems to me that most of these autos have sights that are easier to see than my 649, not to mention a possible optic.
Honestly, I'll probably keep carrying my 649 to the store and such. Got some Cabelas bucks and birthday money giving me the itch for a new toy. Might just as well make it something useful.
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Dogmush offered some good advice about sticking with known good brands and choosing something from one of them. You should find a range that offers rentals, and rent a few of the handguns we've mentioned. Make an afternoon of it. Have fun. Find one that's comfortable in your hand, shoots well for you, and doesn't break the bank.
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Gold plated, fully engraved Desert Eagle in .50 AE.
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Gold plated, fully engraved Desert Eagle in .50 AE.
WINNER!!!
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For concealability my old Kel-Tek P3AT .380 Was great! Carried it in the pocket of my jeans and it looked like a pocket knife!
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fherohog.com%2Fimages%2Fguns%2Fcarry06.jpg&hash=a67d07078cb5ecdd0da9001fd6180a704592cc68)
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My Kel-Tek P-11 was a good double stack that shared mags with my S&W Model 59 and my Kel-Kek SUB2000.
With the mag extension i could just fit 3 fingers on it. With the standard S&W Mod 59 mags, it was just right.
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. . . I also had the titanium/scandium version of this revolver (called the "AIRLIGHT," I believe) with identical mechanics (with one exception) to my Airweight.
This Mofo kicked so bad it was esentially unsuitable for defense except with light .38s. I could not fire 158 grain standards with it and sold it. . . .
I have an S&W 340 Sc as my "always" gun - scandium frame, titanium cylinder five shot .357 Mag. I normally carry it with 145 grain Winchester silvertip JHPs. I put Crimson Trace grips on it which cover the backstrap with a layer of rubber - that way it's merely unpleasant to shoot rather than actually painful. At least for the first five rounds.
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" Seems to me that most of these autos have sights that are easier to see than my 649, not to mention a possible optic. "
So the truth comes out. You're getting old.
GEDOFFAYEROWNLAWNYAPUNKASSOLDFART!
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The P365 comes with a high visibility green front sight. Works for me. It is the first upgrade I do for pistols if they don't come standard. I can do without red dots, but a good front sight improves my shooting a lot.
I had a Kahr P9 years ago. It was mostly reliable. Where it seemed to give me pause was when chambering a round from a full mag. It would hang up a lot for some reason. Once a round was in the chamber, I don't remember it ever having an issue while shooting. Also, parts of the slide were polymer and would get stuck if you pulled the slide back too hard. I sold the gun a while back, but it did the job for me for a while.
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I have an S&W 340 Sc as my "always" gun - scandium frame, titanium cylinder five shot .357 Mag. I normally carry it with 145 grain Winchester silvertip JHPs. I put Crimson Trace grips on it which cover the backstrap with a layer of rubber - that way it's merely unpleasant to shoot rather than actually painful. At least for the first five rounds.
Son1 fired it with full-house .357s and said it was like getting hit with a ball pein hammer. That alerted me to start with lighter loads and go up. I had to stop at 158 grain standard .38s and came to the conclusion that it was totally unsuitable for defensive uses, and "if the gun were as light as the bullets, it would be just as dangerous on the back end."
I was also a little concerned with day-to-day regular usage damage to the finish on those exotic materials. It wasn't like you could just drop it off at your local smith for a re-blue job.
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I guess some people have trouble with the Kel-Tek PF9, some don't. I even tried "embiggening" the grip on it with a section of bicycle inner tube on the grip and that didn't work either. I have read other accounts of its unreliability. I suspect that it was so small and the recoil so great that the combination exaggerated tiny faulty design choices in some hands and not others. Problem solved by getting my money back on it.
This was one of the beauties of "back then" when you didn't have to go through a dealer for this kind of transfer. Remember those days? How soon we forget !
Terry, 230RN
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My Kahr CW9 is great all around, but in$tead of firing 200 round$ for reliability, I keep a full-house hollowpoint in the chamber and ball rounds in the magazines. It does print like mad in a pocket. I put a laser sight on it, like with all my defensive sidearms.
The Kahrs strke me as being having super tight tolerances.
My CM9 I think the prior owner had probably done all the breakin on it, because everything feeds. The CM40, I don't think its previous owner had shot very much at all. (And surprisingly, it doesn't totally suck to shoot .40 through.)
Some guns, the 9 and .40 versions are just a barrel & slide swap different, and they'll take the same magazines. Not so with the Kahrs. Designed around that cartridge, stuff doesn't swap.
Son1 fired it with full-house .357s and said it was like getting hit with a ball peen hammer. That alerted me to start with lighter loads and go up. I had to stop at 158 grain standard .38s and came to the conclusion that it was totally unsuitable for defensive uses, and "if the gun were as light as the bullets, it would be just as dangerous on the back end."
Mostly with the snubbies I'm carrying my steel Taurus now. I can shoot that for fun.
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This was one of the beauties of "back then" when you didn't have to go through a dealer for this kind of transfer. Remember those days? How soon we forget !
If you mean private sales w/o a background check, I think that's legal in most of the country.
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I guess some people have trouble with the Kel-Tek PF9, some don't.
Many years ago a friend of mine brought a friend of his (with prior permission) to my range with his new Kel-Tek PF9 so he could learn to shoot it.
The guy couldn't get through a magazine with out at least a couple of jams, this was with 3 different mags. My friend and I were both able to shoot it with out it missing a beat. Never could figure out what he was doing wrong. we worked with him on grip and stance and how tight to hold it, nothing worked. If one of us shot it, flawless, if he shot it, jam-o-matic. I think he took it back and traded it in on a revolver.
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I suspect he would do better with something that had a full size grip.
That said, I had a PF-9 that I got rid of. I offered it to my Dad for free and he declined. The small grip and the way the trigger worked just made it uncomfortable/awkward to shoot IMO.
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. . . If one of us shot it, flawless, if he shot it, jam-o-matic . . .
Some guns are sensitive to how they're held - which IMHO is a design flaw that too many gun writers try to excuse by a contemptuous "limp wrist" comment. (What if you've already been injured? Maybe you're still in the fight, but CAN'T hold it perfectly?)
My Gen 1 Glock 17 is reliable in my hands, but when I gave it to my petite, elderly mother to shoot - it jammed. I found out I could make it malfunction on demand by holding it loosely. My Gen 3 Glock 26 has no such problem, nor does my BHP or Beretta 92 Elite. And I recently got an S&W M&P 2.0 compact - 4" barrel - and in the first several hundred rounds of mixed ammo, even when holding it deliberately with a bent wrist and loose "two finger" grip, function has been perfect. (So far!)
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Some guns are sensitive to how they're held - which IMHO is a design flaw that too many gun writers try to excuse by a contemptuous "limp wrist" comment. (What if you've already been injured? Maybe you're still in the fight, but CAN'T hold it perfectly?)
Agreed. Unless it's a range toy, you can't always expect to be gripping a combat handgun perfectly. Your hands could be bloody and slippery, you may be one handed, off handed, or both, You may be holding a person with the other hand, you may just be in a hurry, trying to get that first shot on target before they do and your grip suffers. The gun needs to work relieably in these situations, not just in a firm grip on a firing line.
Interesting trivia I got from my Grounded and Wounded class: The most common non-fatal injury seen in pistol-pistol gun fights is being shot in the hand. Generally speaking if you both have a pistol you are putting both your pistols out in front of your eyes, right in the other guy's sightline. It is reasonably common for police to win a gunfight by making shots with a finger or two blown off by the bad guy's first shot. That'll compromise your grip, I suspect.
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Interesting trivia I got from my Grounded and Wounded class: The most common non-fatal injury seen in pistol-pistol gun fights is being shot in the hand. Generally speaking if you both have a pistol you are putting both your pistols out in front of your eyes, right in the other guy's sightline. It is reasonably common for police to win a gunfight by making shots with a finger or two blown off by the bad guy's first shot. That'll compromise your grip, I suspect.
Doing force on force I've seen (and felt) this a bunch too. Sims to knuckles can really smart, but I can't imagine what a bullet would do.
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What comes to mind is you often shoot where you are looking. When someone is pointing a gun at you, you are probably looking at their gun not at them. Plus, it is held out forward between you and the other guy.
Which is another reason to practice off hand shooting and perhaps one-handed reloads or other alternate scenarios. Doesn't take a lot of ammo, just do it a few times.
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Doing force on force I've seen (and felt) this a bunch too. Sims to knuckles can really smart, but I can't imagine what a bullet would do.
WLJ to the white courtesy phone please.
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Continuing the thread drift:
In addition to single hand and weak hand training, it's important (IMO) to occasionally practice with compromised grip and compromised mobility. In the class we also took it a step and practiced shooting with [mild] pain stimulus.
So compromise the grip: Tape some or all of your fingers together, tape your strong hand thumb down, tape an object into the palm of your shooting hand (we used tennis balls). Can you draw and get shots on target.
One handed malfs and reloads: How do you do it without flagging yourself. Can you holster, reload in the holster, and draw? How do you get the gun out of your holster, safely, with our off hand?
Pain Stim: This one was both fun and a doozy. Instructor handcuffed bowling pins to us and we had to engage with a couple pounds swinging around and digging into our wrist bones. MFer hurt.
https://i.imgur.com/LKvXvk7.mp4
These are all like 5% skills. You don't need to train on them all the time, but once or twice a year break them out and spend 25-50 rds on them so you don't have to figure it out in a gunfight. From experience, all of these are exponentially more difficult to do with a sub-compact pistol. You'll note I was running my 19x in the class so I could concetrate on technique. I've since done it with my P365XL, and my main take away was I might want to carry a bigger gun. =D
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One handed malfs and reloads: How do you do it without flagging yourself. Can you holster, reload in the holster, and draw? How do you get the gun out of your holster, safely, with our off hand?
I reckon that's one in the "pro" column for an optic. I can pretty consistently one hand rack a slide with an optic on it, but I've not mastered it on a bare slide. It's also a case for the "EZ rack" slides that seem to constantly be advertised for women and the elderly. On the one extreme, I'm a fairly strong guy, but the springs on my Delta Elite make it impossible for me to one hand rack that thing.
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It's also a plus for AIWB carry. You can put the gun back in the holster, reload/strip a mag/whatever, and get it back out safely with either hand pretty easily. Much more difficult to do that offhand with the holster behind your hip.
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I normally carry a Glock 43 in a pocket holster in my right side front pocket. The spare mag is in the left pocket. The S&W 642 .38 is in a vest pocket, in a holster. I usually walk around with hands in vest pockets.
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^^^
You might be better served selling one of those to fund some Level III concealable armor. Seriously.
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I recently switched stores from the South Kingshighway one to one in the close-suburbs...
Frankly, at the South Kingshighway one, I was more worried about one of my cow orkers pissing someone off to the extent that they came back to shoot the place up than about getting robbed...
That kid: "I have to park my truck in front, in the handicapped spot just in front of the door, so that I don't get my tires slashed again."
Antagonistic, authoritarian, aggressive, assertive, and they wouldn't let me fire him.
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Continuing the thread drift:
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Why characterize this as thread drift?
Thread title: "Re: Looking for some handgun guidance"
Seems to me most of this is pretty much on topic For once, we're talking about gun lore instead of gun law.
Terry
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I reckon that's one in the "pro" column for an optic. I can pretty consistently one hand rack a slide with an optic on it, but I've not mastered it on a bare slide. It's also a case for the "EZ rack" slides that seem to constantly be advertised for women and the elderly. On the one extreme, I'm a fairly strong guy, but the springs on my Delta Elite make it impossible for me to one hand rack that thing.
I have done a one-handed rack with a bare slide off my jeans. It helps if the rear sight can grab onto pants or something else. I probably have not done that with my current carry gun.
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WLJ to the white courtesy phone please.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/x383/WLJohnson1/.highres/sgt-schultz-sgt-shultz-knowing-nothing-demotivational-poster-1262241779.jpg)
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I believe the Israelis had a holster with a sharp step inside, in front of the trigger guard space, so one could rack the slide by forcing the muzzle down against that step. Don't know whatever became of that.
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I believe the Israelis had a holster with a sharp step inside, in front of the trigger guard space, so one could rack the slide by forcing the muzzle down against that step. Don't know whatever became of that.
Think a few have toyed with that idea
Here a racking holster from Spain https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/02/17/spains-automatic-holster/
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I believe the Israelis had a holster with a sharp step inside, in front of the trigger guard space, so one could rack the slide by forcing the muzzle down against that step. Don't know whatever became of that.
Hopefully it died an ignoble death, as the entire idea of condition 3 carry should.