Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Ben on June 09, 2023, 09:37:36 AM
-
Holy crap, man.
Gas station clerk and customer/robber (unclear) argue over $4 in coffee and donuts. The clerk locks all the doors to the gas station. The customer/robber pulls a gun and says he will shoot the three customers also locked in the store if he's not let out. The clerk doesn't budge. Three people are shot and killed. The clerk was not one of them.
I guess the only lesson here is to be armed when you go into any kind of convenience store.
https://youtu.be/uSGGy78e74U
-
That clerk is in a world of *expletive deleted*it now, I bet.
-
That clerk is in a world of *expletive deleted*it now, I bet.
Charged with involuntary manslaughter according to the video
-
If you’re going to lock yourself in with a belligerent customer you should at least be armed.
-
Charged with involuntary manslaughter according to the video
That seems inappropriate. He did not collude with the murderer.
I could see charges for false arrest, illegal detention, abduction, something like that. He denied someone mobility and freedom over $4. Typically isn't "citizens arrest" powers limited to felony thresholds? Coffee and a donut is not going to hit that; felony requires different values in different places, but my understanding is it's well over $500 usually.
He had no responsibility for the deranged triggerman's behavior though.
-
That seems inappropriate. He did not collude with the murderer.
I could see charges for false arrest, illegal detention, abduction, something like that. He denied someone mobility and freedom over $4. Typically isn't "citizens arrest" powers limited to felony thresholds? Coffee and a donut is not going to hit that; felony requires different values in different places, but my understanding is it's well over $500 usually.
He had no responsibility for the deranged triggerman's behavior though.
[Devil's Advocate]
It was illegal for the clerk to lock the other customers in the store with the killer.
The deranged person said he was going to kill innocents, produced the means to do so, and gave the clerk a chance to stop his illegal act.
A solid case could be made that while committing an illegal act, the clerk displayed depraved indifference to the likely outcome of that act, and it resulted in 3 deaths. Deaths that the clerk could easily have avoided. [/Devil's Advocate]
Im not sure you're wrong AZ, but I can also see the other side of that argument. I think that if one of my loved ones were dead in a store because a clerk wouldn't unlock a door over $4 bucks, I would feel the clerk shared some real responsibility for the situation.
He instigated a hostage situation without a plan to finish it, and then extended it when the bad guy clearly stated shooting was going to start. That's way different than just some bad guy shooting up a stop and rob. I might have some sympathy if the clerk had seemed to be prepared to win the gunfight after initiating lockdown, but he seems to have no other plan.
As a side note, what does laws and fire codes say about a public building that can be locked down so that folks can not get out?
-
I am sure there is some law that could be used to bring him in as an accessory, but I have trouble finding him criminally responsible for the deaths. However, effectively kidnapping people by locking them inside in a situation that leads to their deaths (unintentionally). There are probably penalties for that.
In civil court, that guy and the station owner are likely in some big trouble. Trapping a robber inside by themselves looks great to make sure the cops catch the guy. Trapping other people in with them is stupid and irresponsible; not worth any potential benefit.
-
Trapping other people in with them is stupid and irresponsible; not worth any potential benefit.
The clerk doesn't look to be the sharpest tool in the shed. =)
-
No attorney here but if illegally detaining those people by locking them in the store was a felony, he'd be up on a charge of felony murder.
Involuntary manslaughter seems light.
-
Have we finally reached critical stupidity?
Exactly who does this clerk think he is to deny an escape route to others?
The robber is an amoral psychopath, the clerk a graduate of the enlightened, self esteem do-gooder asylum.
-
Looks like 3 were shot, but 2 survived.
https://www.wdrb.com/news/national/detroit-clerk-who-locked-door-before-customers-were-shot-will-face-trial/article_a3ec9384-2026-5892-a785-cfe2dc22a401.html
Also, this may be that vigilantism we've been predicting. But with the stupidity turned up to 11.
-
No attorney here but if illegally detaining those people by locking them in the store was a felony, he'd be up on a charge of felony murder.
Involuntary manslaughter seems light.
Yep, that's how they get him (and rightly so.) Charge him with multiple kidnappings and felony murder. Drop it down to manslaughter if they are being generous.
-
Looks like 3 were shot, but 2 survived.
Oh, thank you. I didn't get that from the video.
-
Oh, thank you. I didn't get that from the video.
That's what you get for listening to the superstars of the internet.
-
That's what you get for listening to the superstars of the internet.
:laugh:
-
As a side note, what does laws and fire codes say about a public building that can be locked down so that folks can not get out?
As a code official, I can answer that. It's unlawful -- mostly.
Building codes say that exits must be available and functional at all times, except in certain occupancies such as prisons and certain health care facilities, where special provisions apply. The types of locks and latches are regulated, generally prohibiting any lock or latch that requires "tight grasping, pinching, or twisting of the wrist" to operate. There are provisions for delayed action locks, under certain conditions. These locks are for places like libraries -- when you depress the pushbar, an alarm sounds but the lock doesn't release for ___ seconds. Without some research, I don't know if a convenience store would qualify to use such locks -- I doubt it.
However, in general, once the building inspector issues a certificate of occupancy there is no duty or authority to go back and reinspect unless he/she receives a specific complaint from a "credible source."
On the other hand, fire marshals typically have a duty to inspect businesses periodically. (At least, they do in my state.) When making annual (or bi-annual or tri-annual) inspections, fire marshals don't use the building code, they use the NFPA 101 Life Safety Code. NFPA 101 also requires that exits be available and operational whenever a building is occupied BUT ... there's a catch. NFPA 101 includes a provision that a building is NOT considered to be occupied if there are fewer than 10 people inside.
Bottom line: the convenience store should not have been allowed to have a lock that could remotely trap people inside, but it might be difficult to make a case against it after the fact.
As an aside, I regularly have battles with owners of small businesses who want to put double-key (key operated on the inside as well as the outside) deadbolts on their entrance doors so the staff can lock themselves in before and after hours. I can cite the code sections almost from memory, and I always get push-back. I just point out that there are locks made that accomplish what they want without violating the code. But those cost a bit more, so they don't want to use them. I have never encountered a remotely-activated deadbolt. It doesn't mean they're not out there but, if there are any in the town where I work, they were installed after the certificate of occupancy was issued.
-
Yep. Most of the time you can have locks preventing ingress to a building but can’t have locks preventing egress. However I’ve seen a number of instances where stores have locked a miscreant in a building. Ostensibly to prevent their escape until the arrival of law enforcement. So, I don’t know.
-
From the 2021 International Building Code (I believe every state and local jurisdiction in the U.S. now adopts the IBC):
1010.2 Door operations. Except as specifically permitted by
this section, egress doors shall be readily openable from the
egress side without the use of a key or special knowledge or
effort.
1010.2.1 Unlatching. The unlatching of any door or leaf for
egress shall require not more than one motion in a single linear
or rotational direction to release all latching and all locking
devices.
Exceptions:
1. Places of detention or restraint.
2. Where manually operated bolt locks are permitted
by Section 1010.2.5.
3. Doors with automatic flush bolts as permitted by
Section 1010.2.4, Item 4.
4. Doors from individual dwelling units and sleeping
units of Group R occupancies as permitted by Section
1010.2.4, Item 5.
1010.2.2 Hardware. Door handles, pulls, latches, locks and
other operating devices on doors required to be accessible by
Chapter 11 shall not require tight grasping, tight pinching or
twisting of the wrist to operate. [NOTE: All stores are required to be accessible]
1010.2.4 Locks and latches. Locks and latches shall be
permitted to prevent operation of doors where any of the
following exist:
1. Places of detention or restraint.
2. In Group I-1, Condition 2 and Group I-2 occupancies
where the clinical needs of persons receiving care
require containment or where persons receiving care
pose a security threat, provided that all clinical staff
can readily unlock doors at all times, and all such locks
are keyed to keys carried by all clinical staff at all times
or all clinical staff have the codes or other means necessary
to operate the locks at all times.
3. In buildings in occupancy Group A having an occupant
load of 300 or less, Groups B, F, M and S, and in
places of religious worship, the main door or doors are
permitted to be equipped with key-operated locking
devices from the egress side provided:
3.1. The locking device is readily distinguishable
as locked.
3.2. A readily visible durable sign is posted on
the egress side on or adjacent to the door
stating: THIS DOOR TO REMAIN
UNLOCKED WHEN THIS SPACE IS
OCCUPIED. The sign shall be in letters 1
inch (25 mm) high on a contrasting background.
3.3. The use of the key-operated locking device
is revocable by the building official for due
cause.
4. Where egress doors are used in pairs, approved automatic
flush bolts shall be permitted to be used, provided
that the door leaf having the automatic flush
bolts does not have a doorknob or surface-mounted
hardware.
5. Doors from individual dwelling or sleeping units of
Group R occupancies having an occupant load of 10 or
less are permitted to be equipped with a night latch, dead
bolt or security chain, provided such devices are openable
from the inside without the use of a key or tool.
6. Fire doors after the minimum elevated temperature has
disabled the unlatching mechanism in accordance with
listed fire door test procedures.
7. Doors serving roofs not intended to be occupied shall
be permitted to be locked preventing entry to the building
from the roof.
8. Other than egress courts, where occupants must egress
from an exterior space through the building for means
of egress, exit access doors shall be permitted to be
equipped with an approved locking device where
installed and operated in accordance with all of the following:
8.1. The maximum occupant load shall be
posted where required by Section 1004.9.
Such signage shall be permanently affixed
inside the building and shall be posted in a
conspicuous space near all the exit access
doorways.
8.2. A weatherproof telephone or two-way communication
system installed in accordance
with Sections 1009.8.1 and 1009.8.2 shall
be located adjacent to not less than one
required exit access door on the exterior
side.
8.3. The egress door locking device is readily
distinguishable as locked and shall be a keyoperated
locking device.
8.4. A clear window or glazed door opening, not
less than 5 square feet (0.46 m2) in area,
shall be provided at each exit access door to
determine if there are occupants using the
outdoor area.
8.5. A readily visible, durable sign shall be posted
on the interior side on or adjacent to each
locked required exit access door serving the
exterior area stating, "THIS DOOR TO
REMAIN UNLOCKED WHEN THE OUTDOOR
AREA IS OCCUPIED." The letters
on the sign shall be not less than 1 inch (25.4
mm) high on a contrasting background.
8.6. The occupant load of the occupied exterior
area shall not exceed 300 occupants in
accordance with Section 1004.
9. Locking devices are permitted on doors to balconies,
decks or other exterior spaces serving individual dwelling
or sleeping units.
10. Locking devices are permitted on doors to balconies,
decks or other exterior spaces of 250 square feet (23.23
m2) or less serving a private office space.
I'm not at all offended that the clerk has been charged, but I think the owner who installed that lock and told the clerk to use it should also be charged.
-
From the 2021 International Building Code (I believe every state and local jurisdiction in the U.S. now adopts the IBC):
I'm not at all offended that the clerk has been charged, but I think the owner who installed that lock and told the clerk to use it should also be charged.
The owner will lose their ass in the lawsuits even if they don’t catch any charges.
-
Got a TLDR on this? ??? :old:
From the 2021 International Building Code (I believe every state and local jurisdiction in the U.S. now adopts the IBC):
1010.2 Door operations. Except as specifically permitted by
this section, egress doors shall be readily openable from the
egress side without the use of a key or special knowledge or
effort.
1010.2.1 Unlatching. The unlatching of any door or leaf for
egress shall require not more than one motion in a single linear
or rotational direction to release all latching and all locking
devices.
Exceptions:
1. Places of detention or restraint.
2. Where manually operated bolt locks are permitted
by Section 1010.2.5.
3. Doors with automatic flush bolts as permitted by
Section 1010.2.4, Item 4.
4. Doors from individual dwelling units and sleeping
units of Group R occupancies as permitted by Section
1010.2.4, Item 5.
1010.2.2 Hardware. Door handles, pulls, latches, locks and
other operating devices on doors required to be accessible by
Chapter 11 shall not require tight grasping, tight pinching or
twisting of the wrist to operate. [NOTE: All stores are required to be accessible]
1010.2.4 Locks and latches. Locks and latches shall be
permitted to prevent operation of doors where any of the
following exist:
1. Places of detention or restraint.
2. In Group I-1, Condition 2 and Group I-2 occupancies
where the clinical needs of persons receiving care
require containment or where persons receiving care
pose a security threat, provided that all clinical staff
can readily unlock doors at all times, and all such locks
are keyed to keys carried by all clinical staff at all times
or all clinical staff have the codes or other means necessary
to operate the locks at all times.
3. In buildings in occupancy Group A having an occupant
load of 300 or less, Groups B, F, M and S, and in
places of religious worship, the main door or doors are
permitted to be equipped with key-operated locking
devices from the egress side provided:
3.1. The locking device is readily distinguishable
as locked.
3.2. A readily visible durable sign is posted on
the egress side on or adjacent to the door
stating: THIS DOOR TO REMAIN
UNLOCKED WHEN THIS SPACE IS
OCCUPIED. The sign shall be in letters 1
inch (25 mm) high on a contrasting background.
3.3. The use of the key-operated locking device
is revocable by the building official for due
cause.
4. Where egress doors are used in pairs, approved automatic
flush bolts shall be permitted to be used, provided
that the door leaf having the automatic flush
bolts does not have a doorknob or surface-mounted
hardware.
5. Doors from individual dwelling or sleeping units of
Group R occupancies having an occupant load of 10 or
less are permitted to be equipped with a night latch, dead
bolt or security chain, provided such devices are openable
from the inside without the use of a key or tool.
6. Fire doors after the minimum elevated temperature has
disabled the unlatching mechanism in accordance with
listed fire door test procedures.
7. Doors serving roofs not intended to be occupied shall
be permitted to be locked preventing entry to the building
from the roof.
8. Other than egress courts, where occupants must egress
from an exterior space through the building for means
of egress, exit access doors shall be permitted to be
equipped with an approved locking device where
installed and operated in accordance with all of the following:
8.1. The maximum occupant load shall be
posted where required by Section 1004.9.
Such signage shall be permanently affixed
inside the building and shall be posted in a
conspicuous space near all the exit access
doorways.
8.2. A weatherproof telephone or two-way communication
system installed in accordance
with Sections 1009.8.1 and 1009.8.2 shall
be located adjacent to not less than one
required exit access door on the exterior
side.
8.3. The egress door locking device is readily
distinguishable as locked and shall be a keyoperated
locking device.
8.4. A clear window or glazed door opening, not
less than 5 square feet (0.46 m2) in area,
shall be provided at each exit access door to
determine if there are occupants using the
outdoor area.
8.5. A readily visible, durable sign shall be posted
on the interior side on or adjacent to each
locked required exit access door serving the
exterior area stating, "THIS DOOR TO
REMAIN UNLOCKED WHEN THE OUTDOOR
AREA IS OCCUPIED." The letters
on the sign shall be not less than 1 inch (25.4
mm) high on a contrasting background.
8.6. The occupant load of the occupied exterior
area shall not exceed 300 occupants in
accordance with Section 1004.
9. Locking devices are permitted on doors to balconies,
decks or other exterior spaces serving individual dwelling
or sleeping units.
10. Locking devices are permitted on doors to balconies,
decks or other exterior spaces of 250 square feet (23.23
m2) or less serving a private office space.
-
Got a TLDR on this? ??? :old:
Sure. The first paragraph:
1010.2 Door operations. Except as specifically permitted by
this section, egress doors shall be readily openable from the
egress side without the use of a key or special knowledge or
effort.
-
I don't know if being able to understand "PUSH TO OPEN" or simply "PUSH" is considered special knowledge, but most doors on commercial operations do say how to operate them.
Just saying ...
Anyway, being armed at all times is the best option.
Woody
-
I have seen crime videos before showing robbers getting locked in a store and forced to wait for police to show up. Usually the clerk is protected behind a barrier. I have never seen one of those where other people are also in the store. That would seem to be a key point to address if deploying a system like that.
-
I don't see a problem with a remotely operated door lock being used to keep a criminal from escaping before the police arrive.
I DO see a BIG problem - felony level big - with keeping innocent people locked in with a clear and present danger.
-
A somewhat similar case but this time with a happier ending
Knife-wielding thief chugs beer after storeowner traps him in shutters
https://www.foxnews.com/world/watch-shop-clerk-traps-would-be-thief-store-shutter-police-arrive