Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: Ben on September 06, 2023, 02:19:22 PM
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There might be more to it, but on the face... holy crap! This is 06JAN related, naturally, but Liberty Safes supposedly gave what I assume to be some "default" manufacturer's code to a customer's safe (it's not clear where the customer bought it) to the FBI for an 06JAN search warrant. And look at all the feeber vehicles driving to serve the warrant:
https://twitchy.com/dougp/2023/09/06/gun-safe-manufacturer-n2386897
This must be an electronic safe. Again, there may be more to it, but I will absolutely be researching my next gun safe purchase very carefully. I like the comment about Liberty now being the Bud Light of the gun world.
Oh, and they've apparently been doing this for search warrants all along.
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Saw that yesterday.
https://twitter.com/libertysafeinc/status/1699245595867971969
The replies to Liberty's statement are lit. To describe their customers as pissed is an understatement.
Unfortunately, I suspect that all the major safe makers have passcodes for their electronic locks.
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Good old fashioned S&G for the win!
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On the flip side, if their warrant covered the contents of the safe for which they cannot get a combination or key, wouldn't they just open the safe destructively?
Not saying Liberty are the good guys here, but had they turned down the request I don't think it would have prevented the FBI from accessing the contents of the safe, and he'd be out a safe as well.
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On the flip side, if their warrant covered the contents of the safe for which they cannot get a combination or key, wouldn't they just open the safe destructively?
Not saying Liberty are the good guys here, but had they turned down the request I don't think it would have prevented the FBI from accessing the contents of the safe, and he'd be out a safe as well.
The outrage is mainly over the fact that the passcodes exist, and that Liberty kept that fact a secret from their customers.
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On the flip side, if their warrant covered the contents of the safe for which they cannot get a combination or key, wouldn't they just open the safe destructively?
Not saying Liberty are the good guys here, but had they turned down the request I don't think it would have prevented the FBI from accessing the contents of the safe, and he'd be out a safe as well.
Does the FBI destroy iPhones trying to get into them when Apple refuses to give them an in? I actually don't know, and am wondering how the two compare, one being destruction (or a passcode) to get into a physical container for electronic information, and the other destruction (or a passcode) to get into a physical container for physical contents.
Also, my only electronic (biometric) safe is a cheap ass one, with my real safes being S&G combos. I suspect the key that comes with my cheap biometric safe for when the batteries die is not nearly as complex as the key to a good electronic safe, but how easy is it for a locksmith to make a key for the key bypass on an electronic safe?
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Saw that yesterday.
https://twitter.com/libertysafeinc/status/1699245595867971969
The replies to Liberty's statement are lit. To describe their customers as pissed is an understatement.
Unfortunately, I suspect that all the major safe makers have passcodes for their electronic locks.
Far as I'm aware of all elec safes have default factory codes in case you forget whatever code you set.. You can usually find it in the manual or even call the manufacturer and give them the S/N of the safe. Many safes even have a reset button accessible when the door is open to clear whatever code the owner may have entered.
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The outrage is mainly over the fact that the passcodes exist, and that Liberty kept that fact a secret from their customers.
This.
Have you ever talked to Liberty to try to get a "default" safe combo? They essentially tell you to pound sand and get a locksmith yet they roll over and show their belly for a warrant? At the very least make them get a court order. Why make it wasy?
bob
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The outrage is mainly over the fact that the passcodes exist, and that Liberty kept that fact a secret from their customers.
I would be willing to bet it was including with the papers that came with the safe. You're suppose to keep it in a safe place in case you forget yours. I know where mine is.
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At the very least make them get a court order.
bob
Very good point.
I guess we're back to hiding our really important stuff in holes in the ground...
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I would be willing to bet it was including with the papers that came with the safe. You're suppose to keep it in a safe place in case you forget yours
Yes, but isn't that just the default code, like 123456, that any devices come with until you put in your own code, replacing that one? This sounds like a factory override code that cannot be erased.
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Yes, but isn't that just the default code, like 123456, that any devices come with until you put in your own code, replacing that one? This sounds like a factory override code that cannot be erased.
I know for a fact Sentry have factory set codes that are not just 123456 and it is hard coded in the safes electronics as an override in case you forget yours. Even replacing the keypad won't change it since the code is stored on a chip inside the door. My safe's override code was printed on a card that came with the safe and your suppose to keep it in a safe place for just in case. I would expect Liberty to do the same, it would make sense.
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The outrage is mainly over the fact that the passcodes exist, and that Liberty kept that fact a secret from their customers.
Is it really? I took the outrage to be primarily focused on giving up the code to the feds so enthusiastically.
Does the FBI destroy iPhones trying to get into them when Apple refuses to give them an in? I actually don't know, and am wondering how the two compare, one being destruction (or a passcode) to get into a physical container for electronic information, and the other destruction (or a passcode) to get into a physical container for physical contents.
If destroying a phone worked to extract data then I'm sure they would be happy to use that route, but I'm pretty sure that both GrayKey and Cellebrite are non-destructive. Since no damage is needed, why bother?
Yes, but isn't that just the default code, like 123456, that any devices come with until you put in your own code, replacing that one? This sounds like a factory override code that cannot be erased.
Liberty doesn't build their own locks, they use S&G and SecuRam locks in their safes. If any permanent factory-set codes exist, I bet they exist in other manufacturers who use the same kinds of locks.
I know for a fact Sentry have factory set codes that are not just 123456 and it is hard coded in the safes electronics as an override in case you forget yours. Even replacing the keypad won't change it since the codes is stored on a chip inside the door.
Same thing with my truck's entry code. You can set a custom one, but there is a factory set one that can't be changed. I bet Ford has a record of that too.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6iW-8xPw3k
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When I first saw this, I thought the FBI had a warrant that included getting that info from Liberty, but I am hearing the warrant did not include them and they did not have hand it over (at that point at least).
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On the flip side, if their warrant covered the contents of the safe for which they cannot get a combination or key, wouldn't they just open the safe destructively?
Not saying Liberty are the good guys here, but had they turned down the request I don't think it would have prevented the FBI from accessing the contents of the safe, and he'd be out a safe as well.
What value is a safe with a compromised code, to someone who has been subject to a warrant by the feds?
Put yourself in the shoes of the safe owner.
Make the feds earn whatever's in the safe. Do you really want a safe after the FBI has the code to it?
And what the hell use is anything firearm related to the feds for anyone being indicted for Jan06 stuff, if they aren't among the handful actually being charged with staging militias around DC? The feds are deliberately being pricks if they're getting into safes and it was for Wilbur and Gladys just strolling through the Capitol Rotunda.
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Not a secret and I would bet this info was included with the documentation that came with the safe.
From Liberty's website https://www.libertysafe.com/pages/combination-key-request
Combination/Key Request Form
Use our form to request your Liberty Safe combination or key replacement for your home or gun safe.
A credit card or check is required, and the form must be notarized to be approved.
Please provide all of the information requested or the combination will not be re-issued. In addition to the information below, please provide the following required documents:
A receipt showing the original purchase if the warranty card was not sent in.
If you are unable to provide the original receipt, you can do one of the following:
Contact your local law enforcement and ask them to verify that the safe is in your possession and that it hasn’t been reported stolen. Have them give you a written statement on their letterhead stating those two things, and fax the statement to us in place of your original purchase receipt.
Contact a licensed and bonded locksmith in your area to come to the safe location and do the same verification. Have the locksmith contact Liberty Safe’s Customer Service Department while on site for further instructions.
If you would like an additional copy of the combination faxed or emailed please include that information below, and check the appropriate box to the left of it. Please allow 3 – 5 business days for processing all requests. If you require your combination immediately, please contact a certified locksmith and ask them to contact us.
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Is it really? I took the outrage to be primarily focused on giving up the code to the feds so enthusiastically.
From what I've been reading on Twitter X, yes, customers are quite unhappy about the existence of the passcodes, although there is also ire directed at Liberty for rolling over so readily.
There are other concerns as well, such as how secure the passcodes are: are they in suitably encrypted files/filesystems with restricted access, or just sitting in an Excel spreadsheet?
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From the the support/manual page on Liberty's website so if Liberty safe owners are outraged it's right there in the manual. Yeah I know, who reads the manual?
Wonder if the Feds paid the $25?
https://www.libertysafe.com/pages/owners-manual
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/x383/WLJohnson1/Screenshot_2023-09-06_155142.png)
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From the the support/manual page on Liberty's website so if Liberty safe owners are outraged it's right there in the manual. Yeah I know, who reads the manual?
My understanding is the passcode is different from the default combination.
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My understanding is the passcode is different from the default combination.
There should be a temporary default out of the box combo but that should be overridden when you input your code. Meanwhile a passcode remains encoded in a chip for just in case you're an idiot and forget what you set yours to and the safe should have come with a card with it printed on it, mine did.
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My understanding is the passcode is different from the default combination.
Mine as well. Also different from Cordex's example. I also have the F150 door combo that is the one I programmed that I can remember, but also the code that came with it that can't be reset by me, but I know what that code is - it's on cards that came with the manual, etc.
My understanding of the Liberty thing is that there is yet another code, that is not a default safe code and not one provided to the owner. So using Ford as an example:
The truck came with code 000000 which I am aware of, but cannot change.
I additionally enter my own easy to remember code of 123456.
There is yet another code Ford has, XXXXXX, that only they know and will not provide me, but will provide service techs and apparently the FBI or other LE.
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My understanding of the Liberty thing is that there is yet another code, that is not a default safe code and not one provided to the owner. So using Ford as an example:
A third code?
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A third code?
Or a second code, depending on how they ship their safes out.
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Back in my prosecutor days, I worked a couple of cases where we got search warrants for safes. Let's just say that there were materials inside involving the defendant and young boys. [barf]
Anyways, we called the safe company, explained the situation. Faxed a copy of the warrants, and were given directions for how to open the safes (factory preset codes). Yes, we were legally able to force the safes open, but doing so likely would have damaged the Polaroids and video cassettes inside, perhaps making it unusable as evidence.
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1 - User code, out of the box it's usually something simple like 123456, is overwritten by the user IF they chose to change it.
2 - Override code to open safe if user forgets their chosen code*, is hard coded cannot be changed by the user. Provided to the user for safe keeping and kept on file by the manufacturer.
* Or the feds want to open the safe. :P
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https://twitter.com/thereal_SnS/status/1699456121998655873
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The Securam manual (I don't know if the safe in question has a Securam lock):
https://securamsys.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/B22-ProLogic-Smart-Safe-Lock-Operation-Instructions-EC-1701A-B22-II-rev_doc220702.pdf
The default codes are as follows:
Super Code (ID00) is 111111
Manager Code (ID01) is 123456
*Note: In many cases, the Super Code (ID00) is changed from default and maintained by the
safe manufacturer as a reset code for your security.
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What value is a safe with a compromised code, to someone who has been subject to a warrant by the feds?
If the feds want into a safe for which they have a warrant, they will get into it whether they are given access or they have to break in. Once they have physical access to the safe it is strictly a matter of time and cost.
Make the feds earn whatever's in the safe. Do you really want a safe after the FBI has the code to it?
I don't have any illusions that any safe I will ever own is capable of keeping the FBI out - with or without a code to it.
Again, not trying to make either Liberty or the feds out to be good guys here, just pointing out that if the contents of his safe were covered by the warrant, the feds were going to get it one way or another.
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Slight thread drift...
When we bought the 2013 Harley in July the set up guy was going over all the features including the 4 digit pass code in case you lose your keyless ignition fob. He had me pick a random 4 digit code to enter into my bike. The guy got a funny look on his face when I gave it to him and asked me how I came up with that particular code. Turns out I had randomly came up with their "shop code" that they use in all of the dealerships bikes.
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If the feds want into a safe for which they have a warrant, they will get into it whether they are given access or they have to break in. Once they have physical access to the safe it is strictly a matter of time and cost.
I don't have any illusions that any safe I will ever own is capable of keeping the FBI out - with or without a code to it.
Again, not trying to make either Liberty or the feds out to be good guys here, just pointing out that if the contents of his safe were covered by the warrant, the feds were going to get it one way or another.
Most home type safes are made with very thin metal, surprisingly easy to cut though with the right tools. If anything you just made them work a few more minutes.
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Slight thread drift...
When we bought the 2013 Harley in July the set up guy was going over all the features including the 4 digit pass code in case you lose your keyless ignition fob. He had me pick a random 4 digit code to enter into my bike. The guy got a funny look on his face when I gave it to him and asked me how I came up with that particular code. Turns out I had randomly came up with their "shop code" that they use in all of the dealerships bikes.
Friend of mine just for the heck of it when he was on a car lot would try the same code on cars with key pad entry. Every once in awhile one would open.
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Most home type safes are made with very thin metal, surprisingly easy to cut though with the right tools. If anything you just made them work a few more minutes.
Even higher end safes. I saw some youtubz video years ago of a safe company showing how easy it was to get into "the other guy's safe" and I recall they were the higher end of brand names. With a big enough lever, you can move the world. =)
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I know Liberty is trying to cover their ass and place nice with both sides by specifying a warrant's presence, but the warrant's authority ended at the accused's home and contents thereof. The code is property of Liberty and resides in their possession, distinct and unique from the owner, his real property, or his residence. Liberty should not have divulged the code until presented with a warrant or court order naming them as the so-ordered party and dictating release of code for that specific safe.
Brad
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LS: Liberty safes, how may we help you?
FBI: This is the FBI, we need the code to one of your safes
LS: We can't give that out.
FBI: Next phone call will be from the IRS
LS: The code is 54271
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Most home type safes are made with very thin metal, surprisingly easy to cut though with the right tools. If anything you just made them work a few more minutes.
More home-type "gun safes" are now being referred to by professionals as "residential security containers" in order to distinguish them from the safes used in places like high-end jewelry stores. (Of course, the people selling these still call them "safes.")
Here's one company's take on the subject: https://www.secureitgunstorage.com/do-you-really-need-a-gun-safe/
(Disclaimer: I have no personal knowledge or experience with this company, I found it in a brief google search. That's it.)
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More home-type "gun safes" are now being referred to by professionals as "residential security containers" in order to distinguish them from the safes used in places like high-end jewelry stores. (Of course, the people selling these still call them "safes.")
Here's one company's take on the subject: https://www.secureitgunstorage.com/do-you-really-need-a-gun-safe/
(Disclaimer: I have no personal knowledge or experience with this company, I found it in a brief google search. That's it.)
"Residential security container" has been the proper and accurate nomenclature for what we typically know as "gun safes" for decades.
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Here's the Babylon Bee
Weird: Liberty Safe Dials Revealed To Only Turn Left
https://babylonbee.com/news/weird-liberty-safe-dials-revealed-to-only-turn-left
At publishing time, the company had announced they would now be offering a free FBI raid with each safe purchase.
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More home-type "gun safes" are now being referred to by professionals as "residential security containers" in order to distinguish them from the safes used in places like high-end jewelry stores. (Of course, the people selling these still call them "safes.")
Here's one company's take on the subject: https://www.secureitgunstorage.com/do-you-really-need-a-gun-safe/
(Disclaimer: I have no personal knowledge or experience with this company, I found it in a brief google search. That's it.)
Looks like they're trying to cash in on Liberty's troubles:
https://twitter.com/SecureItStorage/status/1699506045716992055
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Wow. Just freaking wow.
I've got a spin dial Liberty, but is that even secure or do they put a special "manufacturer's code" in those, as well?
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"At the very least make them get a court order. Why make it wasy?"
A warrant IS a court order.
That's why they're signed by a judge.
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Friend of mine just for the heck of it when he was on a car lot would try the same code on cars with key pad entry. Every once in awhile one would open.
I recall hearing that back in the 1960s or early 1970s it was revealed that one of the major car companies had something like SIX key way patterns for all of their cars, and those key way patterns spanned multiple model years.
In other words, if you had a key, you had a 1 in 6 chance of getting into one of their cars.
Apparently it came to light when auto theft really ratcheted up in the 1970s.
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Technically virtually all of the gun "safes" now on the consumer market are not safes.
They're security cabinets.
It has to do with the metal thickness.
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I've got a spin dial Liberty, but is that even secure or do they put a special "manufacturer's code" in those, as well?
I’m sure they record the initial combination. Have you ever changed it?
"At the very least make them get a court order. Why make it wasy?"
A warrant IS a court order.
That's why they're signed by a judge.
I haven’t seen the warrant in this case, but typically they are very specific about what can be taken and from where. It may well have authorized them to get into the safe and obtain the contents, but I highly doubt the original warrant also compelled the safe manufacturer to provide the combination. That would almost certainly have required an additional order. They probably could have gotten it, but Liberty didn’t bother to make them.
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Technically virtually all of the gun "safes" now on the consumer market are not safes.
They're security cabinets.
It has to do with the metal thickness.
And if LEOs serving a warrant don't have the combination or security code, they'll haul out a Sawzall, Jaws of Life, or other tools to force it open - I bet they'll get in pretty quick.
And whether they find "contraband" or not, it won't do the safe security cabinet any good. (And if it's a genuine, honest to goodness safe . . . they'll still force it open - it may just take a little longer.)
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I think the really telling part of this story is how far the FBI has fallen in the public esteem. I suspect 10 or 15 years ago the vast majority of gun owners, even if unhappy with the circumstances, would have acknowledged that giving the code to the FBI when they had a warrant (at least for the house. I wonder if the contents of safes were covered too. Aren't warrants supposed to be pretty specific?). The Fudds running Liberty Safe probably thought so. It's like gun companies that still think the NRA represents the wishes of the "Gun Community". Liberty is probably shocked at the disregard for Federal Law Enforcement among their customer base.
They do seem to be attempting to change their policies in response to their customer's concern though: https://twitter.com/libertysafeinc/status/1699606598669459680?s=20
TL:DR: Going forward, you can fill out a form requesting them to delete your factory code from their database and assume the risk you might get locked out, and they will now require a subpoena compelling them to release a code to LE.
I have a Liberty Safe with an S&G dial, and I'll probably ask them to lose the combo, just on GPs.
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I’m sure they record the initial combination. Have you ever changed it?I haven’t seen the warrant in this case, but typically they are very specific about what can be taken and from where. It may well have authorized them to get into the safe and obtain the contents, but I highly doubt the original warrant also compelled the safe manufacturer to provide the combination. That would almost certainly have required an additional order. They probably could have gotten it, but Liberty didn’t bother to make them.
That's the question I have, if they a have warrant to enter and search the house would that by default include locked items in the house? Would that included a locked drawer? If so is there a line drawn between a locked drawer and a "safe"? if so where is it? If the warrant doesn't included locked items do they have to get a warrant for each and every one?
And another just popped into my head
Before we crucify Liberty here what exactly was Liberty told by the FBI before they gave out the code?
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They do seem to be attempting to change their policies in response to their customer's concern though: https://twitter.com/libertysafeinc/status/1699606598669459680?s=20
TL:DR: Going forward, you can fill out a form requesting them to delete your factory code from their database and assume the risk you might get locked out, and they will now require a subpoena compelling them to release a code to LE.
Well, I'll give them credit for stepping up to make things right. This is the way it should be - customer choice, and customer responsibility if the combo is lost. And only complying when they are named in a warrant/subpoena/court order (IANAL and don't know all the differences regarding obligations). I hope other safe manufacturers follow suit.
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That's the question I have, if they a have warrant to enter and search the house would that by default include locked items in the house? Would that included a locked drawer? If so is there a line drawn between a locked drawer and a "safe"? if so where is it? If the warrant doesn't included locked items do they have to get a warrant for each and every one?
Without seeing the actual warrant it's hard to say for certain, but I believe the way it works is that typically a warrant would be for a location and for the items expected to be found at that location. The item specification can be very broad or it can be very specific. For instance, the warrant might cover all computer equipment and storage without detailing every single laptop and USB device that might be found ("The items to be seized include, but are not limited to, all electronic devices capable of storing, processing, or transmitting data, including desktop computers, laptops, tablets, smartphones, external hard drives, USB drives, SD cards, CD-ROMs, DVDs, and any other form of computer storage equipment."), or it might be for a specific model of bulldozer with a particular serial number.
They would be authorized to search locked rooms and containers on the named premises which could contain the items they are looking for. So if they're looking specifically for a 25 ton bulldozer they probably wouldn't be allowed to break into a typical gun safe, but they might be allowed to break into a locked barn. If they're looking for a broader of items which could conceivably be contained in a safe or locked room then they'd be allowed to obtain access to those. If the owner refuses to provide keys and combinations they can break into them.
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they will now require a subpoena compelling them to release a code to LE
Isn't a subpoena just issued by the prosecutor?
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Question: Would anyone have known about this had Liberty not bragged about it on their social media? Was it brought up elsewhere first?
I saw a post earlier that Liberty Safe was sold to an investment group in 2021 which has mostly contributed money to Democrats. The current CEO also is a Democrat contributor. Just food for thought.
https://twitter.com/charliekirk11/status/1699612950196330924
Charlie Kirk
@charliekirk11
Liberty Safe was sold to Monomoy Capital Partners in 2021, a liberal East Coast investment firm. I pulled the FEC reports on the company and found approximately $400,000 over the last 10 cycles of max donations to Democrats like:
Raphael Warnock in GA
John Fetterman in PA
Mandela Barnes in WI
Mark Kelly in AZ
Liberty Safe’s current CEO, Justin Hillenbrand, was a founding partner of Monomoy and donated $4,600 to Obama for America.
And we're supposed to be surprised they betrayed their customers to the FBI as quickly as humanly possible?
Boycott Liberty Safe.
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Question: Would anyone have known about this had Liberty not bragged about it on their social media? Was it brought up elsewhere first?
Good question, given comments here that this has probably been done by Liberty and other companies many times before. If Liberty initiated the public release versus some watchdog, then I can't help but think, after rereading their statement and now seeing the CEOs political connections, that he ordered the social media statement because "06JAN INSURRECTION!!!" and really thought he was being "patriotic".
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"At the very least make them get a court order. Why make it wasy?"
A warrant IS a court order.
That's why they're signed by a judge.
No. Just NO.
A warrant is PERMISSION for law enforcement to search a specific place, for specific things.
It is NOT an obligation for your safe manufacturer to give the code to the police.
It is NOT an obligation for your vehicle manufacturers to cut new keys for the vehicles for the police.
It is NOT an obligation for Google/Microsoft/Amazon/etc to pass on your passwords for your various online accounts.
A warrant at 123 Main St in Anytown, USA does not imply the entire world is now at the disposal of Anytown PD or the feds to assist in their investigation.
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If the feds want into a safe for which they have a warrant, they will get into it whether they are given access or they have to break in. Once they have physical access to the safe it is strictly a matter of time and cost.
I don't have any illusions that any safe I will ever own is capable of keeping the FBI out - with or without a code to it.
Again, not trying to make either Liberty or the feds out to be good guys here, just pointing out that if the contents of his safe were covered by the warrant, the feds were going to get it one way or another.
I understand they're GOING to get into it.
But perhaps the owner has a deliberate intent for storing something in the safe, in a way that destruction is ensured if the safe is physically compromised. Blackmail leverage, crypto recovery passwords, whatever.
If Liberty has a court order to facilitate the feds getting into the safe, that's one thing. But if they have a standing POLICY to assist them, that's some bullshit. It's a safe that has a guaranteed fedboi backdoor in it.
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But perhaps the owner has a deliberate intent for storing something in the safe, in a way that destruction is ensured if the safe is physically compromised. Blackmail leverage, crypto recovery passwords, whatever.
Someone requiring that level of protection should probably not be using any commercially available safe. Since they are already living in a cheap paperback novel, they should have their author write in the skills to design and fabricate their own locks and stuff, or maybe a trusted locksmith that can predictably betray them or something.
If Liberty has a court order to facilitate the feds getting into the safe, that's one thing. But if they have a standing POLICY to assist them, that's some bullshit. It's a safe that has a guaranteed fedboi backdoor in it.
I agree in spirit, but again, Liberty's policy and actions did not in any way change the outcome except reducing physical damage to the safe. I'm not saying they are worthy of any praise, but they had no ability to change the outcome.
I'd note that any commercial lock manufacturer also provides instructions to licensed parties to bypass their locks - usually through drilling - in a way that does not (outside the fictional scenario you presented earlier) damage the goods inside the safe.
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Here's Brandon Herrera
LIBERTY SAFE SOLD YOU OUT TO THE FEDS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMhQeXBzJ3Q
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(https://assets.website-files.com/6059175569f51418f5825d17/64f8ccd5ca4a04d509cbf314_maxresdefault.jpeg)
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MORE bad news about the company
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz5uNkNBTDY
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More info from another source with better info:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCtDPYpsG1A
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No. Just NO.
A warrant is PERMISSION for law enforcement to search a specific place, for specific things.
It is NOT an obligation for your safe manufacturer to give the code to the police.
It is NOT an obligation for your vehicle manufacturers to cut new keys for the vehicles for the police.
It is NOT an obligation for Google/Microsoft/Amazon/etc to pass on your passwords for your various online accounts.
A warrant at 123 Main St in Anytown, USA does not imply the entire world is now at the disposal of Anytown PD or the feds to assist in their investigation.
A search warrant is a court order. It is an order that authorizes law enforcement to conduct a search during a limited period of time without the consent of the owner/occupier/possessor of a place or thing. It further orders law enforcement to leave a receipt for any/all items taken, and to return a sworn accounting for what was taken to the court that issued the warrant in the first place.
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Runkle of the Bailey, a Canadian firearms lawyer, put out a pretty good video about this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeCwrX2gcXM
He made two good points that stuck out to me. The first is that the police having access to these codes allows them to go on warantless fishing expeditions and then lie and say you gave them the code and permission to search the safe, and since the safe would be intact it would be much harder for you to dispute there claim. Without the code, they'd have to hack the safe open somehow, and the destruction would be prima facie evidence that you did NOT give consent.
The second is an issue in places like Canada with safe storage laws. Lets say your code is leaked, and criminals use it to open your safe and steal your firearms. Then you have to explain to the police, who may not know about the code leak, how your guns were stolen if they were locked up like they were legally required to be by law, and your safe isn't destroyed.
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You know, one of the things we shouldn't forget here, beyond the safe issue, is EIGHT *expletive deleted*ing CARLOADS OF FEDS rolling in to serve this warrant two years after the fact, shoving around his girlfriend, who had just come home from a miscarriage, and forcing him to turn off all his security cameras and his internet.
Because cops who are doing things above board always want to make sure that they can't be recorded and that said recordings can't get to someplace where they can't be confiscated. ;/
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What I have isn't a "gun safe" but an old, 3000 lb. steel & concrete laminate with a mechanical dial. The company that refurbished this unit set the 3 numbers to my requests but I don't know if they kept a copy of those numbers. There is no name or serial number on this safe AFAIK nor any info about the company from whom we bought this safe.
While the hinges are on the outside, there are studs on all four sides of the door that, when the handwheel is turned to close the safe, engage into the walls. Cutting off the hinges won't get them into the safe.
As mine isn't a gun safe, I store most of my older paperwork in it. This includes tax returns, certain utility bills, property tax records, other financial info, auto repair/maintenance records, etc.
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A search warrant is a court order. It is an order that authorizes law enforcement to conduct a search during a limited period of time without the consent of the owner/occupier/possessor of a place or thing. It further orders law enforcement to leave a receipt for any/all items taken, and to return a sworn accounting for what was taken to the court that issued the warrant in the first place.
I agree that it is a court order, but the issue is in regards to whom it orders.
Reading samples of various warrants online for context, I see affirmation under oath of a particular type of law enforcement officer of various types of suspicious activity, and an intention to delve for corroborating named evidence to support suspicion of a crime in progress or committed.
The warrant serves as EXCULPATION of the officer's search and seizure actions which would normally be criminal in day to day happenings. The warrant is a restraint on government from criminalizing the actions of the officer who asked for the warrant.
Nothing in any example or real warrants I've found online orders the home owner to offer keys, or codes, or passwords.
Nothing in the warrant orders manufacturers of consumer security products to facilitate entry into any safes/computers/RSC's/etc.
I'm aware I'm arguing with a judge over this issue, and I relish being corrected, and hearing the legal principles which would allow such a broad extension of the power of such a mundane thing as a single search warrant for a common residence.
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I case you don't remember ESG (Environmental, social, and governance) is basically a company's woke score
https://twitter.com/MatrixPers51519/status/1699884200688865761
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F5czquaWUAASq2h?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F5czqucWMAAjGvI?format=jpg&name=large)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F5czqucWUAAerNw?format=jpg&name=large)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F5czqucWEAAiZUQ?format=jpg&name=large)
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I have a small Sentry Safe I keep things in. Thing must weigh 70 lbs and is only 1'^3 ! Combo lock and 4 bladed key, both required to open. Odd combination too.
PS: They CAN send me a key/combination on written request with proof of ownership & Serial number. Dunno if I have an option to delete that info.
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No. Just NO.
A warrant is PERMISSION for law enforcement to search a specific place, for specific things.
It is NOT an obligation for your safe manufacturer to give the code to the police.
It is NOT an obligation for your vehicle manufacturers to cut new keys for the vehicles for the police.
It is NOT an obligation for Google/Microsoft/Amazon/etc to pass on your passwords for your various online accounts.
A warrant at 123 Main St in Anytown, USA does not imply the entire world is now at the disposal of Anytown PD or the feds to assist in their investigation.
^^^ Quoted for truth.
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No. Just NO.
A warrant is PERMISSION for law enforcement to search a specific place, for specific things.
It is NOT an obligation for your safe manufacturer to give the code to the police.
It is NOT an obligation for your vehicle manufacturers to cut new keys for the vehicles for the police.
It is NOT an obligation for Google/Microsoft/Amazon/etc to pass on your passwords for your various online accounts.
A warrant at 123 Main St in Anytown, USA does not imply the entire world is now at the disposal of Anytown PD or the feds to assist in their investigation.
Jesus, really?
YES YES YES! As confirmed by the member who is a sitting magistrate, a warrant IS a court order.
Scream no all you want, but a warrant is a order issued by the court for police to conduct a search.
HOW the application for the court order is written in the warrant determines what, where, how, and when the police can search.
Whether the warrant allowed the police to go after the safe's entry code or whether the police exceeded the breadth of the warrant is something for lawyers and the courts to determine.
Maybe the defense will hire you as an expert NO NO NO screamer. I'd ask them. ;/
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Jesus, really?
YES YES YES! As confirmed by the member who is a sitting magistrate, a warrant IS a court order.
Scream no all you want, but a warrant is a order issued by the court for police to conduct a search.
HOW the application for the court order is written in the warrant determines what, where, how, and when the police can search.
Whether the warrant allowed the police to go after the safe's entry code or whether the police exceeded the breadth of the warrant is something for lawyers and the courts to determine.
Maybe the defense will hire you as an expert NO NO NO screamer. I'd ask them. ;/
How does what you said disagree with what he said?
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YES YES YES! As confirmed by the member who is a sitting magistrate, a warrant IS a court order.
Scream no all you want, but a warrant is a order issued by the court for police to conduct a search.
HOW the application for the court order is written in the warrant determines what, where, how, and when the police can search.
AZRedhawk44 isn't saying a warrant isn't a court order, he is asserting that the warrant did not apply to Liberty. As far as I know, none of us have seen the warrant, but I think it is extremely likely that he is correct. As far as I know, warrants for physical spaces are not typically written assuming the need to compel safe manufacturers to cooperate.
If police are serving a warrant on your nice Mormon neighbors, absent the court specifically ordering you, nothing about that court order forces you to tell the coppers where the fake rock with the key is hidden - even if they ask you about it. The warrant applies to the place they are searching, not to what the neighbors of that space know. Yes, the warrant is a court order, but not one that applies in any respect to you or stuff you know. A judge could write a warrant trying to compel you to tell where the hidden key is, or for Liberty to disclose the access code, but I have yet to see any indication that the judge who issued the warrant in this case did so. Liberty certainly didn't claim that, and indeed indicated that such an order was not needed for them to cooperate.
Whether the warrant allowed the police to go after the safe's entry code or whether the police exceeded the breadth of the warrant is something for lawyers and the courts to determine.
No. In this case none of that matters at all, and no lawyers or courts are going to care about any of it. If Liberty had been presented with a court order that forced them to reveal it, I don't think they'd be getting anything like the blowback that they are receiving. AZRedhawk44's point was that Liberty didn't wait to be ordered to do anything. Their stated policy instructed them to provide the code without being ordered to do so by a court. That is the issue at hand. The police asked and Liberty gave it up as they are legally allowed to do. The issue is not one of the police exceeding the scope of the warrant. They can ask for information without a warrant and do so all the time. The issue is Liberty doing something they didn't have to do.
I maintain that their choice didn't change the outcome in any significant respect, but you seem to be missing the fundamental point.
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"How does what you said disagree with what he said? "
How does he, in any way, think that his screed addresses what I said?
I said very simply that a search warrant IS a court order. That's a simple fact, confirmed by a sitting magistrate.
I didn't comment on the content of the search warrant, I didn't comment on the validity of the search or its supporting information, I didn't comment on the activities of the police OR Liberty.
Yet that simple statement -- A search warrant IS a court order -- was apparently somehow evidence that I'm a pro-deep state super fascist police lover with over-reach on my mind?
Beats the *expletive deleted*ck out of me.
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"Whether the warrant allowed the police to go after the safe's entry code or whether the police exceeded the breadth of the warrant is something for lawyers and the courts to determine.
No. In this case none of that matters at all, and no lawyers or courts are going to care about any of it. If Liberty had been presented with a court order that forced them to reveal it, I don't think they'd be getting anything like the blowback that they are receiving. AZRedhawk44's point was that Liberty didn't wait to be ordered to do anything. Their stated policy instructed them to provide the code without being ordered to do so by a court. That is the issue at hand. The police asked and Liberty gave it up as they are legally allowed to do. The issue is not one of the police exceeding the scope of the warrant. They can ask for information without a warrant and do so all the time. The issue is Liberty doing something they didn't have to do.
I maintain that their choice didn't change the outcome in any significant respect, but you seem to be missing the fundamental point."
I see TWO fundamental points. Apparently most of you don't.
Fundamental point one -- did the warrant give the police right to demand the information from Liberty?
As I said, that's a question for lawyers and the courts to decide if the target of this action wants to push the issue that overreach on the part of the police is cause for the entire warrant to be invalidated.
Fundamental point two -- Liberty's position with its customers
Liberty's actions, and how its customer base interprets/perceives those actions, are a consumer/producer issue that has little to nothing to do with the warrant issue other than the fact that Liberty willing exposed information to its customers. That's potentially a tort issue if someone/group of someones wants to take it that far.
Once again, though, I was only addressing the fact that a warrant is a court order.
That said, you'll need to excuse me, because I'm going to be late for my pro-deep state super fascist police lover meeting. ;/
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERGHcLgmCN8
How to reset the SecuRAM locks used by liberty safes, this will clear out both your user code, and the manager code that Liberty had, and claims they will remove from their database if you ask.
It's worth noting that while the Courts have held that warrant or no, you cannot be compelled to give them the combination to the safe, that's a 5th amendment protection, and third party individuals CAN be compelled to give up information like combinations (or the location of the hide-a-jey in a previous post) by court order. So if Liberty still has your combo, or can regenerate it with your serial number and whatever algorithm they used in the first place, they can be compelled to give it to law enforcement.
If you factory reset the lock and set the manager code to 08-21-92, and don't tell anyone, then LE will have to cut open the safe if they want in. It's your call how much trouble you want to give the cops.
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Fundamental point one -- did the warrant give the police right to demand the information from Liberty?
As I said, that's a question for lawyers and the courts to decide if the target of this action wants to push the issue that overreach on the part of the police is cause for the entire warrant to be invalidated.
Again, no. Your "fundamental point one" is utterly irrelevant in the context of this case. Given the information we have there is no indication whatsoever that there ever was any overreach regarding asking Liberty for the combination for lawyers or courts to argue about.
According to Liberty, the feds requested (not demanded) the information from Liberty and per its own policies Liberty happily complied without being compelled by any court to do so. And yes, asking is an entirely different thing from demanding. Law enforcement can politely ask to search your car, home, and rectum without a warrant and for no reason at all. If you consent, they're golden. Liberty consented to a mere request.
Fundamental point two -- Liberty's position with its customers
Liberty's actions, and how its customer base interprets/perceives those actions, are a consumer/producer issue that has little to nothing to do with the warrant issue
If Liberty had waited until there was a warrant which actually applied to them then their customers would likely have interpreted it very differently than when they gave it up based on nothing more than a "pretty please". Some might have still been upset, but the lack of any applicable court order to Liberty completely changes the situation.
other than the fact that Liberty willing exposed information to its customers.
You are trying to dismiss the exact subject that was being discussed when you jumped in.
Once again, though, I was only addressing the fact that a warrant is a court order.
When Bob said to wait for a court order, he wasn't saying a warrant is not a court order, he was saying it wasn't a court order that applies to Liberty. Your statement was irrelevant in context.
... and third party individuals CAN be compelled to give up information like combinations (or the location of the hide-a-jey in a previous post) by court order.
But (for K Frame's benefit), a warrant granting police access to a safe or house does not automagically apply to third parties despite being a court order. That would typically be a separate order. Probably one that could have been obtained in this case, but Liberty didn't bother to make them. Which, again, I took to be Bob's point.
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But (for K Frame's benefit), a warrant granting police access to a safe or house does not automagically apply to third parties despite being a court order. That would typically be a separate order. Probably one that could have been obtained in this case, but Liberty didn't bother to make them. Which, again, I took to be Bob's point.
Absolutely.
In a separate semi nerdy point, I kind of wonder now about Liberty's whole "We'll delete your manager code" thing. SecuRAM (the maker of the digital lockset) ships them all wth a default 1-1-1-1-1-1 Manager code. Liberty installs the locks and keypads in their safes, then sets the manager code and the inital user code. Then they store the manager code tied to your safe's serial number in case you lose your code or the Revenuers need to poke around inside. The question is: How does Liberty generate that initial manager code? They were talking about this on Timcast IRL a couple days ago, and the theory is they have some sort of proprietary encryption algorithm that they punch the new safe's serial number into, and it spits out a six digit code or two, which the assembler then programs into the safe. If that's the case, then deleting your code from their server won't protect you from the feds (or a data breech) because they could be compelled to rerun the algorithm and regenerate the manager code of your safe's lockset.
For that matter, Feds aside, it's recently become glaringly public that Liberty has, or can make, the manager codes for all their electronically locked safes. How good do you think Liberty's infosec is? Is that system air-gapped from the internet? What are Liberty's access protocols to that system, and are there any employees that could be bribed, and how much do you think a bunch of gun safe entry codes are worth to data brokers? Kinda by definition, whoever is installing the lockset's in the safes needs to have access to the manager code generation protocol. Is that access audited, or even auditable? Or can an assembly line worker run any serial number they have through the code generation protocol and pull existing manager codes?
My Liberty safe, I think I mentioned, has an S&G dial, and I have a reset key, so I think I'll be changing that combo out this weekend, just in case.
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Unless I'm missing something basically someone(s) at Liberty screwed up and Liberty has admitted as much and has taken steps to make sure it doesn't happen again. Right? I mean this isn't like Bud Light where the company kept doubling down.
So assuming we can overlook their lib owners and they don't do it again how long are we going to rake them over the coals for this?
Now of course this is assuming they haven't been doing it all along and this only the first time we've heard about. Wonder how many other safe manufacturers are or have done this?
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I see TWO fundamental points. Apparently most of you don't.
Fundamental point one -- did the warrant give the police right to demand the information from Liberty?
As I said, that's a question for lawyers and the courts to decide if the target of this action wants to push the issue that overreach on the part of the police is cause for the entire warrant to be invalidated.
Fundamental point two -- Liberty's position with its customers
Liberty's actions, and how its customer base interprets/perceives those actions, are a consumer/producer issue that has little to nothing to do with the warrant issue other than the fact that Liberty willing exposed information to its customers. That's potentially a tort issue if someone/group of someones wants to take it that far.
Warrants do not give police rights.
Warrants excuse transgressions.
The first place they do so is the actual search of the place in question, and the seizure of whatever evidence the police are looking for. The second place they do so is the introduction of that evidence into a trial. Evidence seized from a person's home absent a warranted search or exigent circumstances permitting the immediate entry and search is inadmissible at trial.
Warrants are also not a cart blanche for law enforcement to demand facilitation by every person under the sun. They are (supposed to be at least) narrow in scope and generally describe an intent to search, not a declaration of a forfeiture of knowledge. That becomes a Fifth Amendment issue that is still unresolved at the SCOTUS level but has been addressed in some Circuit Courts, as well as one State level case I came across at the Pennsylvania Supreme Court. So far the consensus seems to be that biometrics can be forfeited forcibly, but personal knowledge (encryption codes, safe codes, etc) is protected by the Fifth Amendment. Also, personal knowledge (my own safe's code) is protected, but commercial/trade knowledge (Liberty's knowledge of safe master codes for all customers) is not protected if the courts issue a warrant at a commercial entity.
Did you brush the bootblack off your tongue from your meeting? :P
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But (for K Frame's benefit), a warrant granting police access to a safe or house does not automagically apply to third parties despite being a court order. That would typically be a separate order. Probably one that could have been obtained in this case, but Liberty didn't bother to make them. Which, again, I took to be Bob's point.
That is what I meant, I should have been more precise. Liberty should have required the Feds to serve them with something compelling them to hand over the code. Just because they had a search warrant for an individual customer did not mean it applied to Liberty (maybe a name change is needed?). Liberty should have said, we will not provide the combo without a court order then they would be on much firmer ground with the outraged customers.
bob
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That is what I meant, I should have been more precise. Liberty should have required the Feds to serve them with something compelling them to hand over the code. Just because they had a search warrant for an individual customer did not mean it applied to Liberty (maybe a name change is needed?). Liberty should have said, we will not provide the combo without a court order then they would be on much firmer ground with the outraged customers.
bob
There was a roughly analogous situation in the cop drama Blue Bloods several years ago. (IT'S A TV SHOW!! IT'S NOT REAL LIFE!! I KNOW THAT!!) Cops went into an investment company office and demanded records on a suspect. Boss Man asked for a warrant or court order. Cops didn't have one, but argued, and said they could get a warrant quick. Boss Man suggested they do so. They did, and within a couple of hours were back at the Boss Man's office. He checked the warrant, took a few step to the side and put his hand on a stack of cartons. "Here's everything we have on your suspect." Boss Man had it all ready for them. Which brings me to my point: he said if he'd simply handed things over, a lot of the company's OTHER clients would be upset - but they could hardly hold it against the company for complying with a valid court order, right?
So the principles BobR and others have already alluded to are well-known enough to be incorporated on TV shows. Too bad nobody at LIberty knew this - or if they did, they just didn't care.
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So the principles BobR and others have already alluded to are well-known enough to be incorporated on TV shows. Too bad nobody at LIberty knew this - or if they did, they just didn't care.
I really think Liberty just hadn't realized the shift in culture of 2A enthusiasts in the last 10-15 years. They assumed "Cooperate with Law Enforcement" was still the default position of their customer base. Liberty is stuck in the gun culture of the early 90's. Go look at the pictures of full safes on thier website. Wood stocked bolt guns, pump and O/U shotguns, some pistols thrown in half of which are revolvers. We could probably get one of them to say "No honest Man needs more than 10 rounds in a magazine."
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I really think Liberty just hadn't realized the shift in culture of 2A enthusiasts in the last 10-15 years. They assumed "Cooperate with Law Enforcement" was still the default position of their customer base. Liberty is stuck in the gun culture of the early 90's. Go look at the pictures of full safes on thier website. Wood stocked bolt guns, pump and O/U shotguns, some pistols thrown in half of which are revolvers. We could probably get one of them to say "No honest Man needs more than 10 rounds in a magazine."
I still insist this might have something to do with their CEO's and maybe their social media team's politics. Which connects to your post in that I think they believe they were going to be lauded for helping the feds get one of those insurrectionists off the streets and in jail for 20 years. Which, the guys who buy Liberty safes and fill them with Citoris and Weatherbys would probably agree with that. I don't think that demographic is a major part of their customer base anymore. Read the room, as they say.
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[...] fill them with Citoris and Weatherbys [...]
I misread this at first glance and was a little confused.
So Ben's saying they're effeminate?
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I misread this at first glance and was a little confused.
So Ben's saying they're effeminate?
:rofl:
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I think the people who sell Liberty Safes may be sitting on them for quite a while, even if they try to get them out of the door at fire sale prices. I think it would be hard to find a gun forum where this event has not been discussed.
Campaign finance documents found an unsurprising connection between Liberty Safe’s parent company and the Democratic Party in an attempt to restrict American’s Second Amendment rights.
https://townhall.com/tipsheet/saraharnold/2023/09/08/liberty-safe-company-gave-nearly-half-a-million-dollars-to-gun-control-happy-democrats-n2628174
bob
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I misread this at first glance and was a little confused.
So Ben's saying they're effeminate?
I saw the same thing on first glance and had to reread it :rofl:
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Makes a connection between the politicians Liberty Safe's owners have been donating money to and the politicians pushing for mandatory safe laws and the removal of safes tariffs. Long story short many are the same politicians.
Now could be something to this but it could just a case of dem = dem
BOMBSHELL: Liberty Safe SCANDAL just went NUCLEAR... It just got SIGNIFICANTLY WORSE...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V635MLNvhls
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Makes a connection between the politicians Liberty Safe's owners have been donating money to and the politicians pushing for mandatory safe laws and the removal of safes tariffs. Long story short many are the same politicians.
Now could be something to this but it could just a case of dem = dem
BOMBSHELL: Liberty Safe SCANDAL just went NUCLEAR... It just got SIGNIFICANTLY WORSE...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V635MLNvhls
Seems really weird for conservative 2A activists to get their panties in a wad over the elimination of tariffs on domestically manufactured gun safes.
If anything, this is magnanimous of Biden. He's frequently referred to as being a Chinese puppet. He selectively left the tariffs on the cheapo imported ChiCom metal lockers, and rescinded them on the domestically produced high end safes. Should be a win with the conservative crowd.
I don't get the anger.
Edit to add: I don't support mandatory "safe" storage. Duh.