Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: WLJ on September 16, 2023, 07:50:27 AM
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:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
“Forget it, he’s rolling:” Twitter and Amazon reviewers mock a history book with a hilarious error
https://twitchy.com/aaronwalker/2023/09/15/no-it-was-not-over-when-the-germans-bombed-pearl-harbor-n2387318
"No way this can be real," I thought.
But then I looked it up on Amazon... https://t.co/8zXM2E9jcJ
It's real. All too real. https://t.co/g36lVJl0AJ
— Stephen Green (@VodkaPundit) September 14, 2023
https://www.amazon.com/Pearl-Harbor-Date-Infamy-December/dp/B0CHG8SZSC/
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/x383/WLJohnson1/3f294455-d013-411d-befb-601141f5a370.jpg)
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Jesus Christ....
I just can't.
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This is real cover art from a real book?
SOMEONE with an odd sense of humor has got to be deliberately punking their (potential) readers - nobody with the intellectual ability to tie their own shoes could accidentally make that kind of mistake.
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Just be glad they weren't jet fighters.
I'm not all that amazed. It seems like illustrators and producers will pick out stock images and clips willy-nilly to dress up their productions.
I've seen the same plane crash images and clips used for a number of individual unrelated reports.
Other things, too, like train-vehicle collisions. Same one for different examples.
"We need an image of fighter planes over water for the cover," J.B. said.
"I'm on it J.B." Types <planes over water> in an image search. "Here ya go."
J.B. glances at image just as his phone is ringing, says, "I like that one."
(https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/b/airplane-flying-over-tropical-ocean-landscape-thailand-travel-amazing-island-destinations-66615476.jpg)
Team effort.
Terry, 230RN
Image credit in Properties
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Just be glad they weren't jet fighters.
The Germans had jets.
https://youtu.be/9A9TYoymCi0
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The Germans had jets.
https://youtu.be/9A9TYoymCi0
But the first flight of the Messerschmitt with a jet engine was in June of 1942, they did a flight with piston engines on the Messerschmitt in spring of 1941.
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Rumor has it that the Germans did indeed have Fw-190s at Pearl Harbor but they were all shot down by F-14 Tomcats and that this has been kept secret.
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Rumor has it that the Germans did indeed have Fw-190s at Pearl Harbor but they were all shot down by F-14s and that this has been kept secret.
Double secret probation for the Nazi fraternity.
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Rumor has it that the Germans did indeed have Fw-190s at Pearl Harbor but they were all shot down by F-14s and that this has been kept secret.
LOL
Their technological aggressiveness was, looking back, kind of scary. It is said that except for blunders on Hitler's part, we'd all be speaking German today. I have read that he wasn't delighted with atomic research and didn't push it because it was based on "Jewish science." I mean, look at the V-2 rocket with a range of 200+/- miles. Look at their rocket-powered fighters. Look at the ME-262 as an early operational jet fighter. Look at the Heavy Gustav and other huge artillery, like the Paris Gun.
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fworldwarwings.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2017%2F03%2F9265478899_f373c7e0fd_b.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=80b7460fed0becabf75ea2402b9d97b41e47a59b5a60a253f9c029b83723e3e0&ipo=images)Schwerer Gustav
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.pinimg.com%2Foriginals%2F77%2F80%2Fab%2F7780abce0c4f6de3c78543837538ed15.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=bd5b3354f868216be59fc4a69647027c38f1e0629d2af810c1e521728609250c&ipo=images)ME-262(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.landships.info%2Flandships%2Fartillery_articles%2Fimages%2Fparis_kanone_20.jpg&hash=dac14ee8cb9694be855b81846312bd1820816ba7)The Paris Gun
One book I read said the use of heavy water as a neutron slower-downer instead of the more effective graphite that we used was a result of a calculation error. The use of graphite resulted in our successful nuclear efforts. (Although not WRT the European Theatre.)
Soooo close.
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LOL
Their technological aggressiveness is, looking back, kind of scary. It is said that except for blunders on Hitler's part, we'd all be speaking German today. I have read that he wasn't delighted with atomic research and didn't push it because it was based on "Jewish science." I mean, look at the V-2 rocket with a range of 200+/- miles. Look at their rocket-powered fighters. Look at the ME-262 as an early operational jet fighter. Look at the Heavy Gustav and other huge artillery, like the Paris Gun.
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fworldwarwings.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2017%2F03%2F9265478899_f373c7e0fd_b.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=80b7460fed0becabf75ea2402b9d97b41e47a59b5a60a253f9c029b83723e3e0&ipo=images)Schwerer Gustav
One book I read said the use of heavy water as a neutron slower-downer instead of the more effective graphite that we used was a result of a calculation error. We used graphite in our successful nuclear efforts.
Soooo close.
Their nuclear program was barking up the wrong tree.
The 262 while nice was far from ready (sorry Hitler had nothing to do with that) and was horribly unreliable and wouldn't have changed the war anyway. Did you know the Britain had the Meteor in combat and we had P-80s under going testing in Italy?
The Me-163 (rocket fighter) killed more of it's own pilots than anyone else.
V2 was a colossal waste of resources that Germany couldn't afford. More of an irritate than anything else to the allies.
If the war in Europe had gone into mid 45 Berlin would have had a package delivery from The Instant Sunrise Company
The only real way Germany could have won was by not starting the war in the first place. Okay, maybe stopped at France, maybe.
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Their nuclear program was barking up the wrong tree.
The 262 while nice was far from ready (sorry Hitler had nothing to do with that) and was horribly unreliable and wouldn't have changed the war anyway. Did you know the Britain had the Meteor in combat and we had P-80s under going testing in Italy?
The Me-163 (rocket fighter) killed more of it's own pilots than anyone else.
V2 was a colossal waste of resources that Germany couldn't afford. More of an irritate than anything else to the allies.
If the war in Europe had gone into mid 45 Berlin would have had a package delivery from The Instant Sunrise Company
The only real way Germany could have won was by not starting the war in the first place. Okay, maybe stopped at France, maybe.
"Their nuclear program was barking up the wrong tree. "
Yes. As I said.
You're missing my point, which was how "scary" their technological achievements were.
I disagree with some of your post, notably the "operational" with respect to jet fighters. And according to my recollection, the ME-262 was originally planned as a fighter, but Hitler mucked up the progress on it by demanding that it be used as both a fighter and bomber instead of leaving it as a fighter. Part of his mucking up skills that I mentioned.
"The Me-163 (rocket fighter) killed more of its own pilots than anyone else. V2 was a colossal waste of resources that Germany couldn't afford. More of an irritate than anything else to the allies."
Allegations as to perceived effectiveness.
Don't miss the point that they actually designed and built ME-263s and flew them in combat. And don't miss the point that 2000 or so V-2s actually hit and caused destruction in London, despite any "waste of resources." I was pointing out the scariness of these things regarding the technical and intellectual resources that Germany brought to bear. That's what makes it "scary," in my words. You're, as I said, missing that point.
I leave it at that.
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I disagree with some of that, notably the "operational" with respect to jet fighters. And according to my recollection, the ME-262 was originally planned as a fighter, but Hitler mucked up the prograss on it by demanding that it be used as both a fighter and bomber.
I reckon that's a question of who read what printed books and what internet articles.
I leave it at that.
Blame it on Hitler is quite common excuse given. TIK calls it the playing the Madman Hitler card. The 262 couldn't have been put into service sooner, the engines weren't even ready and still weren't ready for prime time. If anything it got rushed.
There are other docs backing that up but here is a German aviation channel looking at that reading from actual German wartime docs, turning it into FB was decided even before Hitler got involved because they had to wait on the engines anyway and German needed FBs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDYHd1PuR5U
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V-2s actually hit and caused destruction in London
Meanwhile The Soviets were rolling in from the East and the Western Allies from the West and South with armies the Germans had no effective way of stopping. These "Wonder" weapons were going to do just about zip about that, maybe add a month or two at best.
Short of putting nukes on V-2s which was way way too small for the task anyway Germany was 99.9% going down one way or another post 42.
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But the first flight of the Messerschmitt with a jet engine was in June of 1942, they did a flight with piston engines on the Messerschmitt in spring of 1941.
I was referring to the SST and the Dornier Do31 VTOL jet.
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WLJ:
You keep arguing whether their technological achievements were effective or not.
I keep saying, looking back, they were scary.
You win your artificial argument with me. I give up. They weren't scary at all.
:rofl:
Terry, 230RN
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WLJ:
You keep arguing whether their technological achievements were effective or not.
I keep saying, looking back, they were scary.
You win your artificial argument with me. I give up. They weren't scary at all.
:rofl:
Terry, 230RN
Sorry, still haven't forgiven them for bombing PH, Remember the Maine! :P
Biden: I almost lost my Corvette at PH
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LOL
<handshake>
Terry
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Back when I worked for Navy Federal Credit Union in the marketing department we were putting together something for active duty Navy.
I came up with the initial text, and the artist started fitting it into the mailer. He had some problems getting it to look good, but finally came up with something for the initial review.
We're sitting around the table -- me (writer), my boss, the artist, the art director, and the deputy marketing director.
We did the round robin... everyone liked the concept, was suggesting tweeks, etc. It finally came to me.
"I'm sorry, but we can't send this out. Our members will be screaming at us, if it even gets past upper management. The art is all wrong."
That REALLY set the art director off. I had a good relationship with the artist, but not the art director. She was a solid bitch of monumental proportions. God forbid you question anything art related.
She finally got done bitching at me, REALLY peeved.
I just looked at the my boss, then the deputy marketing director and said...
"NEVER in the history of the United States have we ever had an aircraft carrier with the island on the PORT side. NEVER. The image is flipped. We send that out and we're going to have the entire Navy raining *expletive deleted*it down on us."
The artist had flipped the image because it fit a lot better with the text and overall design. I understand why he did it, but it simply wouldn't work.
The art director looked like a fish out of water, just opening her mouth and closing it and trying to figure out what to say, but didn't have anything to come back with.
The deputy marketing director looked at me and said "You're sure?"
"Yep, 100%. Only Japan had carriers with islands on the port side, and it was NOT a successful experiment."
The DMD just said "Let's try something else" and the meeting broke up.
The art director continued to look like fish out of water. :rofl:
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"Yep, 100%. Only Japan had carriers with islands on the port side, and it was NOT a successful experiment."
Akagi & Hiryu. The Shōkakus were originally designed to have port islands but this was changed during construction.
If you ready wanted to blow their minds
HMS Furious as in her 2nd conversion.. 1st only had the forward deck. Afterwards they did it right.
(https://historylink101.com/n/bw/aircraft_carriers/slides/IMG_6044_s2a.jpg)
HMS Eagle early designs had two islands, port and starboard, connected by bracing. Thankfully someone realized it was daft idea before building.
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https://youtu.be/q7vtWB4owdE?t=34
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I'm impressed. The book was [independently] published on August 31, 2023, and it's already out of print. Must have been a VERY short print run ...
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If the cover art wasn't a joke, I assume it was AI art someone slapped together for the cover and didn't pay close attention.
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. . . Did you know the Britain had the Meteor in combat and we had P-80s under going testing in Italy? . . .
The USAAF was looking at jets pretty early.
My Dad was on a troop train somewhere out west (probably sometime in 1943) and the train was buzzed by something extraordinary - it was faster than the fighters the group's pilots had trained on. It circled around and then climbed quicker than anything they'd seen.
They were later by told by some senior officer in no uncertain terms that none of them saw anything and couldn't talk about what they hadn't seen. It was certainly a prototype jet; I've no idea if it was a Meteor, P-80, or something else.
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The USAAF was looking at jets pretty early.
My Dad was on a troop train somewhere out west (probably sometime in 1943) and the train was buzzed by something extraordinary - it was faster than the fighters the group's pilots had trained on. It circled around and then climbed quicker than anything they'd seen.
They were later by told by some senior officer in no uncertain terms that none of them saw anything and couldn't talk about what they hadn't seen. It was certainly a prototype jet; I've no idea if it was a Meteor, P-80, or something else.
In 43 that could have been a P-59 which first flew in 42. Bit of of dog though. P-80 first flew in Jan 44
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Did any of these ever fire a shot en guerre during WWII?
At one point while all this experimenting was going on, they would attach fake propellers to the jets' noses as they moved them around the airfield to avoid questions about planes with no propellers,
Richard Bong, leading Ace in the Pacific, died while acceptance testing a jet where the engine died at takeoff. He ejected, but too close to the ground, and was killed --August 6, 1945.
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Did any of these ever fire a shot en guerre during WWII?
The Meteor was used mainly intercepting V-1s.
The American jets none. P-59 was as I said earlier was a bit of a dog and never saw active combat service. The P-80 as far as I'm aware of none in WW-II though it did see active combat later in Korea. What we needed at the time was fighter-bomber/long range escorts and neither the 59 or 80, or anyone's early jets, fit that bill. Range on all early jets was a big issue.
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Bong wasn't just the leading ace in the Pacific, he's the top US fighter ace of all time.
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Bong wasn't just the leading ace in the Pacific, he's the top US fighter ace of all time.
One wonders if "Pappy" Boyington of VMF-214 "Black Sheep" fame hadn't been captured what his final count could have been.
Now I want to read his book again, been decades.
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One wonders if "Pappy" Boyington of VMF-214 "Black Sheep" fame hadn't been captured what his final count could have been.
Now I want to read his book again, been decades.
Probably not more than Bong's official 40 - US policy was to take the leading aces out of combat at some point and bring them home to sell war bonds. Also to deny potential propaganda value to the enemy if they shot down a leading American ace.
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Bong and Marge in "Marge."
(https://archive.jsonline.com/Services/image.ashx?domain=www.jsonline.com&file=b99287638z.1_20140610214019_000_g906j926.1-1.jpg&resize=660*413)
I was in a hobby shop a couple of years ago and found an assembly model of "Marge" and oscillated for about a half hour going back to it in the store, but finally decided not to get it. Kick me, please. You know where and I will offer that target willingly.
(https://allthatsinteresting.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/marge-bong.jpg)
She sure was pretty.
Terry, 230RN
REF (For closure; the fate of the aircraft):
https://pacificwrecks.com/aircraft/p-38/42-103993.html
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The Germans had jets.
https://youtu.be/9A9TYoymCi0
They also had a rocket powered fighters. I believe it was called the "Komet".
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Rumor has it that the Germans did indeed have Fw-190s at Pearl Harbor but they were all shot down by F-14 Tomcats and that this has been kept secret.
This isn't "The Final Countdown". :rofl:
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They also had a rocket powered fighters. I believe it was called the "Komet".
Which were used in combat and fired real bullets at "us."
Which supports my thesis that powerful German technological advances were put into actual "powder-burning" practice... and, looking back, these things, like the Paris gun, the V-2, the V-1, the Heavy Gustav, the proposed New York Bomber, the Goliath tracked mine, etc, etc, etc... were scary because of their fearless innovation..
We only beat them because of our massive production and transportation abilities.
Oh. And General Patton.
Terry, 230RN
REFs (For items not previously mentioned):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goliath_tracked_mine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silbervogel
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I thought I heard they were used to go after V-1 flying bombs.
My understanding is the first jets were short ranged which may have hurt their opportunities to go into combat for the Allies as we were pushing fighters and bombers further out on attack rather than being on the defensive.
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"Which supports my thesis that German technological advances were put into actual "powder-burning" practice... and, looking back, these things, like the Paris gun, the V-2, the V-1, the Heavy Gustav, the proposed New York Bomber, the Goliath tracked mine, etc, etc, etc..."
For every "successful" "wonder weapon" there were perhaps a dozen or more that were absolutely mindless, endless resource sucks that did virtually nothing to enhance German's changes of winning the war and, in fact, hindered its war-winning potential. I put successful in quotes because virtually none of the wonder weapons programs were actually successful.
The Gustav is a perfect example. The damned things required two to four battalions to move them, set them up, fire them and protect them, not to mention the men and resources needed to build specially prepared rail tracks. Getting the gun read to fire could take literally weeks.
Then there was the Nazi "atomic weapons" program. Millions of Reichsmarks spent on a complete and total dead end.
Yes, the Germans did make some interesting technological advances, but as often as not they completely squandered them on ridiculous demands and expectations for them.
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The German Me-262 did succeed in shooting down a fair number of our bombers over Germany. And they were more than a match for our long legged P-51D fighters. The mistake Hitler made was ordering the Me-262 to be converted into a bomber, a role for which it was very ill suited.
If he had left the Me-262 alone, not decreed that they become bombers, Germany would have put up a much better fight in the air. I doubt they would have regained air superiority, but they certainly would have more strongly challenged the Allies over the air in Germany and gained more time for weapons development.
In the end, though, they would have ultimately lost the air war regardless of what wonder weapons were developed.
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The German Me-262 did succeed in shooting down a fair number of our bombers over Germany. And they were more than a match for our long legged P-51D fighters. The mistake Hitler made was ordering the Me-262 to be converted into a bomber, a role for which it was very ill suited.
If he had left the Me-262 alone, not decreed that they become bombers, Germany would have put up a much better fight in the air. I doubt they would have regained air superiority, but they certainly would have more strongly challenged the Allies over the air in Germany and gained more time for weapons development.
In the end, though, they would have ultimately lost the air war regardless of what wonder weapons were developed.
I provided a link to a YT video where actual German docs showed Hitler had nothing to with the delay, the main issue was the engines, a issue that dogged everyone's early jets. If anything the 262 was actually push into service too soon but really what choice did the Germans have? We could wait, they couldn't. The early jets were too short legged to fit our needs anyway, we were taking the fight to the enemy not waiting for them to come to us. I've seen other sources that back this up but you can't get much better than reading from actual German war time docs.
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^^^ That's interesting as I have some books that make the case for Hitler ordering the conversion of Me-262s to the bomber role. One of those things that makes one wonder.
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^^^ That's interesting as I have some books that make the case for Hitler ordering the conversion of Me-262s to the bomber role. One of those things that makes one wonder.
Hitler did but that wasn't the main delaying factor, work had already begin on converting it anyway since they had to wait, the plane and engines just weren't ready yet. And even if it was it wouldn't have made much of a difference anyway. Don't get me wrong, the 262 deserves it's place in history as a great plane just this mystique has grown up around it that makes it out to be something it wasn't sometimes.
And on this blame Hitler for everything that went wrong subject. Much of our knowledge of the German side of the war has come from memoirs written by various generals with a common theme, it wasn't my fault it's was Hitlers. Recently many historians have start to rely more on actual war time docs many of which paint a different picture than some of memoirs written by generals and others to paint themselves with glory. Much of what Manstein wrote for example has been coming under question. Dead men tell no tales but the living write memoirs.
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"Which supports my thesis that German technological advances were put into actual "powder-burning" practice... and, looking back, these things, like the Paris gun, the V-2, the V-1, the Heavy Gustav, the proposed New York Bomber, the Goliath tracked mine, etc, etc, etc..."
For every "successful" "wonder weapon" there were perhaps a dozen or more that were absolutely mindless, endless resource sucks that did virtually nothing to enhance German's changes of winning the war and, in fact, hindered its war-winning potential. I put successful in quotes because virtually none of the wonder weapons programs were actually successful.
The Gustav is a perfect example. The damned things required two to four battalions to move them, set them up, fire them and protect them, not to mention the men and resources needed to build specially prepared rail tracks. Getting the gun read to fire could take literally weeks. Underlinining mine.
"Yeah, but" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwerer_Gustav And thanks for supporting my premise as underlined. They burned powder.
Perhaps in vain. But they burned powder.
Then there was the Nazi "atomic weapons" program. Millions of Reichsmarks spent on a complete and total dead end.
Yes, the Germans did make some interesting technological advances, but as often as not they completely squandered them on ridiculous demands and expectations for them.
Once again, the bumbling of der Führer but this does not equate with lack of original ingenuity, which is my premise, so thanks again for confirming it.
Think: Everybody seems to want to confuse "not successful" with "not ingenious."
Once again, their "unsuccessful" conceptions were carried through to operational uses.
They burned powder against the Allies.
Demurrals aside.
"Yes, the Germans did make some interesting technological advances, but as often as not they completely squandered them on ridiculous demands and expectations for them. " Bolding mine.
QED. Notwithstanding ultimate failure.
I'm beginning to sound like a Nazi-lover here, but to be clear, I'm a Nazi Hater/Fearer, as supported by my original premise and supporting arguments. Lest similarities occur ad infinitum.
Terry, 230RN
EDITED TO ADD: "He lost the fight, but Jesus, you gotta admire his left hook." :rofl:
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I didn't realize that "burning powder" was the pinnacle of evaluating whether a project was worth the effort and resources it consumed.
By your standard, apparently the Germans did win the war and that's why we're all closed Fascists.
I love how you link to the Wikipedia article on the Gustav as if it somehow supports your premise... a total of 47 rounds fired in anger during the war, with little actual, tangible impact in any of the actions to which it was fronted. My God, that is certainly how you win a war.
Those three completed guns consumed enough steel to manufacture something like 5,000 trucks, which would have had a far greater impact on the German's ability to wage war.
I never claimed that the Germans weren't clever. Their scientists were exceptional.
But what the Germans weren't was smart.
Along with the incredible waste of resources, the incredible amount of over engineering that went into some of their weapons systems was ludicrous.
The German theory was that a smaller number of more highly refined tanks would sweep the Russian steppes clean. Enter monstrosities like the Ferdinand.
The combat history of the King Tiger was equally sketchy, with it's actual combat effectiveness being swamped by the detrimental effect it had on the German ability to wage war.
What the Germans never understood until it was far too late in the war was that the Soviet model of simplicity combined with quantity was truly a war winning strategy.
I'm not sure why there's been something of a cult grow up around the German "wonder weapons" programs during World War II.