Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: 230RN on September 21, 2023, 05:44:14 PM
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The cover of the October issue of the American Rifleman has a great picture of the Springfield Armory's offering of their "Echelon" pistol.
I did a triple-take on it when I realized the serial number appeared in three places: The receiver (the "handle"), the slide, and the barrel.
Is this something new of the ATF's pseudorules, or is Springfield accommodating some Shtoopit Law somewhere (perhaps California?), or is Springfield just anticipating a new pseudorule on what constitutes a "receiver"?
Also, what happens if you shoot out or otherwise ruin the serialized barrel on your "Echelon?" Can you mount a factory-new barrel in it with a different serial number? Does the factory have to freshly serialize a new barrel with the same number for you? Will a 4473 be required for you to obtain a new barrel with a different serial number? Et cetera.
I see they refer to the "receiver" as the chassis, or "Central Operating Group." Is this a new legal term? I scanned the article pretty thoroughly, but might have missed any discussion of these issues.
I'm not necessarily "up" on the latest law and lore, so if a discussion of this appears elsewhere in this forum please link me to it.
As a side note, I have been objecting to the use of the term "upper receiver" on AR (etc.) style rifles for years on the theory that sooner or later, serial numbers on the "upper receiver" might be required, which (I guess) would require the separate 4473 rigamarole if you just wanted to buy a different "upper" for your AR (etc.) firearm. (After all, it's still just one firearm --you can't mount two uppers on one lower and call it two firearms.)
So, as the saying goes, "Whazzup wid dat?"
Terry, 230RN
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Made in Croatia.
S/Ns on the frame, slide, & barrel is the norm in Europe. My Walthers, Italian made Berettas, and Austrian made Glocks are the same way.
In the US the only one that matters is the one on the frame or in the case of some guns the receiver/ trigger assembly/Fire Control Unit within the frame (Sig 320 for example) so you can change the barrel and slide at will and in the case of those with the S/Ned FCU the frame.
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Here's what a FCU for a Sig 320 looks like.
(https://www.sigsauer.com/media/catalog/product/cache/2f7933e2ff16f0ec074a16ab6b6195f2/p/3/p320-fcu-left_1_1.jpg)
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My HiPowers are numbered in _at least_ 2 locations. Some match, and after barrel replacements, some don't.
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The cover of the October issue of the American Rifleman has a great picture of the Springfield Armory's offering of their "Echelon" pistol.
I did a triple-take on it when I realized the serial number appeared in three places: The receiver (the "handle"), the slide, and the barrel.
My XD-s have SNs in those locations.
My subcompact went back to SA for a chipped locking block. They also replaced the barrel, with a Mod. 2 barrel, with no serial number.
Glock replaced my flame cutting damaged G19 slide, with a new slide, with new serial number.
Yeah, probably a Euro thing.
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Sorry, folks, I just don't ever remember seeing multiple SNs but I never owned many foreign-built guns that I recall. I did have a PPK but I do not think it had multiples. I'm checking that now with the transferee but he hasn't called back. I have an ancient Stoeger import, only one number for sure, and the PPK may have been built here under license.
Interesting "new" information for me. Thanks.
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Sorry, folks, I just don't ever remember seeing multiple SNs but I never owned many foreign-built guns that I recall. I did have a PPK but I do not think it had multiples. I'm checking that now with the transferee but he hasn't called back. I have an ancient Stoeger import, only one number for sure, and the PPK may have been built here under license.
Interesting "new" information for me. Thanks.
Your Stoeger could be made in the US or Italy. More recent Stoegers are made in Turkey. PPKs made after 2018 should be US made. To confuse matters there's the PPK/S which is a PPK up sized a bit to get around 1968 import size restrictions
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Your Stoeger could be made in the US or Italy. More recent Stoegers are made in Turkey. PPKs made after 2018 should be US made. To confuse matters there's the PPK/S which is a PPK up sized a bit to get around 1968 import size restrictions
Interesting. I thought they were made in China or something like that. Their SxS shotguns are a bit cheaper than CZ. I may have to look for reviews.
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Some guns have serial numbers on ALL the major and some minor parts - this probably goes back to the days when a lot of hand fitting was required, and they wanted to make sure that fitted minor parts stayed with the guns they were fitted to. Collectors like Lugers with "all matching" serial numbers - I think they'll even field strip the piece to verify that the serial number on the firing pin matches the gun.
A lot of Mosin-Nagants have multiple matching serial numbers, but its likely that most have been "force matched" - when refurbished at a Soviet arsenal, they assembled the refinished/repaired rifles and if (for example) a bolt they picked up from a bin happened to fit a rebuilt rifle, they'd remove the old serial number and duplicate the rifle's serial number on the bolt.
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Sorry, folks, I just don't ever remember seeing multiple SNs but I never owned many foreign-built guns that I recall. I did have a PPK but I do not think it had multiples. I'm checking that now with the transferee but he hasn't called back. I have an ancient Stoeger import, only one number for sure, and the PPK may have been built here under license.
Interesting "new" information for me. Thanks.
Smith & Wesson revolvers were, at various times, serial numbered on multiple places -- grip frame, rear of the cylinder, underside of the barrel -- including some internal parts.
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Among Sig collectors so called "Triple SN" guns are more desierable, because it means they were made in Germany (or even better "W. Germany") before the production moved to the US. They are seen as better made.
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Among Sig collectors so called "Triple SN" guns are more desierable, because it means they were made in Germany (or even better "W. Germany") before the production moved to the US. They are seen as better made.
^That's interesting, thanks. Adds to my puny knowledge about serial numbers in general.
I did have a World War N Mauser rifle with four digits of the serial number on just about every part. Never really paid much attention to it. I had it rebarreled to .30-'06 and shot it for years before I noticed they had replaced the bolt with a different serial number bolt. Only then did I become alerted to the "matching serial number" concept on firearms.
FWIW I had several old firearms with no serial numbers. EEEK! Don't faint. I only paid attention to SNs after I loaned (legal then) my Son2 a .380 and he was stopped by a cop for something and the cop took it to his car for checking the serial number. My Son2 told me that it was therefore guaranteed to not have been stolen. Hell, I had bought it brand new from the gun shop where I had worked for a while, direct from the wholesaler, so I knew that. One of my few NIB firearms.
Terry, 230RN
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Among Sig collectors so called "Triple SN" guns are more desierable, because it means they were made in Germany (or even better "W. Germany") before the production moved to the US. They are seen as better made.
Glock makes many models both in the US and Austria for sale in the US and there are those who will only buy the Austrian made Glocks thinking they're better made.
All my Glocks are Austrian made, it just so happened that way wasn't done on purpose, and all have Slide/Barrel/frame S/Ns. Can anyone with US made Glocks look to see if they have all three or just the frame S/N? I'm curious now.
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Well, I did have a World War N Mauser rifle with four digits of the serial number on just about every part. Never really paid much attention to it. I had it rebarreled to .30-'06 and shot it for years before I noticed they had replaced the bolt with a different serial number bolt. Only then did I become alerted to the "matching serial number" concept on firearms.
FWIW I had several old firearms with no serial numbers. Don't faint. I only paid attention to them after I loaned (legal then) my son a .380 and he was stopped by a cop for something and the cop took it to his car for checking. My son told me that it was therefore guaranteed to not have been stolen. Hell, I had bought it brand new grom the gun shop where I had worked for a while, so I knew that. One of my few NIB firearms.
The Germans were quite anal about serial numbering every last part they could fit it on.
S/Ns weren't required on US production firearms for civilian sale until 1968. I expect one of these days for the dems to start calling them ghost guns and start screaming for them to be retroactively serial numbered
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Glock makes many models both in the US and Austria for sale in the US and there are those who will only buy the Austrian made Glocks thinking they're better made.
All my Glocks are Austrian made, it just so happened that way wasn't done on purpose, and all have Slide/Barrel/frame S/Ns. Can anyone with US made Glocks look to see if they have all three or just the frame S/N? I'm curious now.
I'll check when I get home. My carry gun that I have here is an aftermarket frame.
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The Germans were quite anal about serial numbering every last part they could fit it on.
S/Ns weren't required on US production firearms for civilian sale until 1968. I expect one of these days for the dems to start calling them ghost guns and start screaming for them to be retroactively serial numbered
Yeah, EEEK! EEEK! Jeeze, and they have the balls to slander us with the term "paranoid."
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The inside of the slide and the original barrel on my custom built 1911 were numbered to match the frame.
The current barrel is serial number .45acp.
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I apologize if this sounds like a stupid question: with modern firearms CNC manufacturing equipment, does it really matter all that much where a firearm is manufactured? My neighbor the gunsmith used to own a custom CNC machine shop where he made parts for Boeing locally. According to him, the Boeing philosophy was that if you met the part specifications for material, tolerances, and quality control, they would source parts from all over the place. I could see this mattering a lot more in times past where material, tolerances and quality control were more crude and there was a lot of hand-fitting.
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I apologize if this sounds like a stupid question: with modern firearms CNC manufacturing equipment, does it really matter all that much where a firearm is manufactured? My neighbor the gunsmith used to own a custom CNC machine shop where he made parts for Boeing locally. According to him, the Boeing philosophy was that if you met the part specifications for material, tolerances, and quality control, they would source parts from all over the place. I could see this mattering a lot more in times past where material, tolerances and quality control were more crude and there was a lot of hand-fitting.
As far Glocks I've heard there's zero different in quality and I think in Glock's case at least it more of a mental thing with some people and I've also heard it said used Austrian Glocks will sell for more than used US made ones because of this.
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The inside of the slide and the original barrel on my custom built 1911 were numbered to match the frame.
The current barrel is serial number .45acp.
:rofl:
I have one with the serial number 9X19MM on the barrel.
It kind of threw stodgy old me when I got a handgun with letters in the serial "number." I note automotive license plates are starting to use more letters lately. Makes sense, more information in a letter character than a numerical character. But it threw stodgy old me.
(Hated that gun, got my money back on it, private sale, back in the day when a private sale was private and none of the government's business.)
Terry, 230RN
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I apologize if this sounds like a stupid question: with modern firearms CNC manufacturing equipment, does it really matter all that much where a firearm is manufactured? My neighbor the gunsmith used to own a custom CNC machine shop where he made parts for Boeing locally. According to him, the Boeing philosophy was that if you met the part specifications for material, tolerances, and quality control, they would source parts from all over the place. I could see this mattering a lot more in times past where material, tolerances and quality control were more crude and there was a lot of hand-fitting.
Within reason, no it does not matter. But collectors the world over often have strange and nonsensical things they value or don't value. As I mentioned in my post on this thread, "Made in W. Germany" Sigs are more popular and expensive then "Made in Germany" Sigs. The wall coming down had jack all to do with gun making, but it's seen as cooler to have one from the Iron Curtain era.
That said, what does matter is the culture of the folks running the machines. China has millions of very nice CNC machining centers in their country, but "wish.com" quality is still a thing. Croatia makes nice functional well made firearms, whereas Turkish guns from ~450 miles away are definitely a step down in manufacturing quality. So a little care in picking countries of origin is probably still warranted, even in the CNC age.
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S/Ns weren't required on US production firearms for civilian sale until 1968. I expect one of these days for the dems to start calling them ghost guns and start screaming for them to be retroactively serial numbered
They already are in some places.
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They already are in some places.
Dayam !
UPD on that PPK. Report is there is only one serial number, but made by S&W. ".380 ACP" stamped over the chamber. He has a Taurus (Brazil) with three serial numbers. Another friend has a Taurus revolver with only one SN. I guess the theory there is that revolvers don't come apart like semis. I remember a Mike Hammer story where Mike changed barrels on his .45 so as to not match the slug he had just "shot someone with. Nowadays, I guess they can match even firing pin indentations, though.
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Firing pins (at least for 1911s) are cheap, and easy to change.
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I'll check when I get home. My carry gun that I have here is an aftermarket frame.
Turns out I don't have any US Made Glocks either. Dunno how many numbers they get.
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Firing pins (at least for 1911s) are cheap, and easy to change.
And don't forget the extractor scratches and ejection port dents on the fired cases. I'm not 100% sure I believe that, but I suppose it's a possibility.
And after all, it's just good manners to police your brass. =D
Terry, 230RN
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Back in 1993 Tom Clancy wrote Without Remorse, and Kelly drilled and tapped holes to screw a catch bag over the ejection port of his 1911 when he converted it to an assassin pistol. That part of the story was set in the 70's.
If you are doing sketchy *expletive deleted*it, leave as little as possible for the CSI guys to mull over. (Although in reality, it seems like if you aren't obvious, and don't post video to the web, they don't really find you)
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Did he recommend getting rid of all, repeat all, ammunition of the type and brand that was used, and run a oouple of rounds of fresh new different brand ammo through that new barrel? Don't remember where I read that..
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Back in 1993 Tom Clancy wrote Without Remorse, and Kelly drilled and tapped holes to screw a catch bag over the ejection port of his 1911 when he converted it to an assassin pistol. That part of the story was set in the 70's.
If you are doing sketchy *expletive deleted*it, leave as little as possible for the CSI guys to mull over. (Although in reality, it seems like if you aren't obvious, and don't post video to the web, they don't really find you)
Uh oh - you mean maybe I shouldn't post video on YouTube, X, Instagram, and TikTok if I ever do something illegal? I'll make a note.
It seems every time you turn around there's a news story of some idiot criminal posting his stuff on the internet - a few years ago it was high schoolers posting film of themselves smashing mailboxes, and I've seen video of a guy in a supercar running at 3x the legal limit on the highway. Last week it was cellphone video of a couple of thugs in a car deliberately running over and killing a bicyclist - an outright murder they committed, just for kicks. And posted on line.
It helps the cops catch bad guys when lot of criminals really are dumb.
As for the Tom Clancy novel stuff - if you're a contract killer or other assassin worried about a ballistic match, there are some pretty simple ways to change the ballistic "fingerprint" of any gun. But as a "professional" you should already be prepared to ditch/destroy the weapon entirely.