Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: K Frame on September 27, 2023, 08:26:34 AM
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What says the hive mind?
I'm considering getting a tactical to replace my Smith & Wesson 3000 police cruiser.
I really like that Smith, it's a Howa made pump that was only offered for a few years (Mossberg later picked it up for a few years), but I'm worried about the long-term parts situation.
I have a couple other 12 gauges -- a Winchester 1200, an Ithaca 37, a Remington 58, a Stevens double -- but those are all sporting guns.
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I have both a 500 and an 870, and I have to give the nod to the 500. Part of that though is me being sinister-handed, and I like the controls on the 500 better. I'm pretty sure the 500 and 590 have the same control placement.
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I like the action release lever position better on the 500/590s
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Like Ben, I prefer the Mossberg controls because I'm left handed. My 870's run smoother than any Mossy I've ever fired, but that could be because they are '70's made Wingmasters. Do the current production Tacticals live up to that legacy of smooth operation? If they do, then the 870 would get my vote.
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Like Ben, I prefer the Mossberg controls because I'm left handed. My 870's run smoother than any Mossy I've ever fired, but that could be because they are '70's made Wingmasters. Do the current production Tacticals live up to that legacy of smooth operation? If they do, then the 870 would get my vote.
My 870HD is circa 1995. I recall comparing it to a friend's old Wingmaster at the time, and they were not even close. Just for kicks, I just now ran the action on both my 500 and the 870. Maybe the 870 was smoother? I couldn't see a significant difference.
Both my 500 and 870 are the Big5 Sporting Goods plain jane editions. I don't know if those are a different production run than what you would have gotten at the gun store at the time.
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It's been years since I've handled/shot either an 870 or a 500/590 so I'll need to get some hands on at a shop or gun show.
I know the 870 has controls more like my 3000, while the 500/590 has the safety on the upper rear receiver.
For a tactical gun I can see the Mossberg safety being a bit easier to operate.
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I owned a 500 for awhile. I did not appreciate the plastic parts of the safety or its location. It came apart and dropped a detent ball into the trigger and disabled it. I reassembled with locktight and sold it. I have not bothered with any 500/590 since.
The 870 safety is located where I am used to it and it works better for me personally. (Mine is swapped to a Big Head safety button) I have recently shot 2 new 870s and the overall quality is a step or 2 better than some in recent years.
They both have enough history you can probably make it as simple as location of the safety.
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I remember hearing 5-7 years ago about the Remingtons all coming out of the factory with terrible chambers. Stick hulls like crazy, lots of malfunctions.
I've got a 590 for my unwelcome visitor shotgun.
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They both have enough history you can probably make it as simple as location of the safety.
People should shoot what they want, but IMO (educate me if I'm wrong), on the 870 side, a lot seems to ride on who was running Remington at the time. They have really had some swings in management at Remington over the years, and I would be most inclined to really research the manufacture date of any 870 that I bought to make sure it didn't come from any crappy quality control years (and mine might have).
Current Remington management seems to at least be talking a good game, so maybe current production is good. Whether good or bad, Mossberg seems to have had a lot steadier management/ownership over the years.
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I typically prefer Remington 870s for my utility shotguns and have a couple - one set up for hunting and a tactical version for home defense, but I've got a Mossberg too and don't really have anything bad to say about it. I'm not as used to its safety position, but that's a training issue rather than any sort of qualitative difference.
If the individual gun you purchase looks good and works well, and you're happy with the controls, I don't think you're going to go wrong with either one. Both have significant aftermarket support, and parts galore, although I think the edge on aftermarket goes to the 870.
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"I did not appreciate the plastic parts of the safety or its location. It came apart and dropped a detent ball into the trigger and disabled it."
Hum... that makes me remember a friend who had a Mossberg. He had problems with the safety on his. I thought it would be an easy fix, but Mossberg apparently puts the safety in with some sort of weird security screw that requires a special tool to get it out.
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I thought about trying to find a short barrel for my Winchester 1200, but so far, no joy.
I REALLY like that gun. Nothing fancy, but it's been rugged as hell for me.
My parents picked it up for me at a yard sale with 4 or 5 Winchoke tubes.
Did a lot of shooting with it over the years.
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I thought about trying to find a short barrel for my Winchester 1200, but so far, no joy.
I REALLY like that gun. Nothing fancy, but it's been rugged as hell for me.
My parents picked it up for me at a yard sale with 4 or 5 Winchoke tubes.
Did a lot of shooting with it over the years.
You can get a standard barrel for it and cut it down. $99 on evilbay
https://www.ebay.com/itm/374944022359?hash=item574c67bf57:g:mvUAAOSwFaBlDJMS&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA8DqACxV2Xs7jE%2BcaD7RsubXuF0mIs0o2wIFqt8jxyBALD5tQZGdJFWGTszj%2BcR6Mn1T8prycnDpSpPy8KuLLil20e9XFj686GPVMvFWknt1gYha6aPw144%2BYlir2e%2FDK48NzX%2FkD8ux2g14vMstHUKBccLoUdslaQY22KJLjpTcRne%2FsKLCUBDVpHiVJzqX0H7R2fnf%2FCmB6SmVYRzFjrGF5gK7OoECvZRtAAeNNTyozOH04e4Ug9Ozy9o5jYpkcagmOwzvJTlEJG80dYlP4NWwc3kDamLZ8QqbYp54QdVpRlkCmvK%2FbACvBiC5ty6cjKg%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR6Db1PbaYg
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That one's got a rib. That would be more of a challenge than I'd want to tackle.
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For all the ergonomic reasons stated, I prefer the Mossberg manual of arms. Yes, my 80's era Wingmaster is smoother and sexier, but that Mossberg plastic log just seems right.
As far as the safety detent ball, mine never gave me an issue before I took it apart to paint it (duck gun) There was a cheap upgrade available (brownells?) but after a dab of blue locktite it never did it again.
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I have a couple of Ithaca 37s with the slam fire capability. I have pondered a Mossberg 590A1, but can't really justify the purchase since I have the Ithacas.
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Slamfire is fun, but is generally not very useful other than for wasting ammo.
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That one's got a rib. That would be more of a challenge than I'd want to tackle.
People typically just cut ribbed barrels at a pillar and add a bead.
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870 fanboi here.
I actually wore out a Mossberg 835 shooting 3.5" and 3" 12 gauge shells over several waterfowl seasons. I was going through half a flat of 3.5" and half a flat of 3" steel shotshells. Not even close to what a trap shooter even shoots.
I bent at least 2 cartridge interrupters; the slide bars were almost razor sharp on the edges; I wore the pivot point on the elevator.
My 870 is one of the original 870 Expresses from the late 1980s, back when they were just a non-polished Wingmaster. No plastic in my shotgun. It was a my slug gun for deer hunting, now I am looking for a Remchoke 18" or 21" barrel with rifle sights as a fur gun if I decide to go coyote, raccoon, or cat hunting in the winter.
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Slamfire is fun, but is generally not very useful other than for wasting ammo.
Off topic: But Ian from forgotten weapons just did a Slam fire vs normal fire comparison video with an 1897 Trench Gun and a tricked out 870. Was neat to watch.
Oh! On topic, I think he was doing a contest to give away the Trench gun. That's definatly what you need! :D
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870 fanboi here.
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My 870 is one of the original 870 Expresses from the late 1980s, back when they were just a non-polished Wingmaster. No plastic in my shotgun. It was a my slug gun for deer hunting, now I am looking for a Remchoke 18" or 21" barrel with rifle sights as a fur gun if I decide to go coyote, raccoon, or cat hunting in the winter.
One of mine is also an early express models. I have a 28” remchoke and a smooth bore rifle sight slug barrel threaded for choke tubes including the rifled choke tube (marginally effective). Even the wood stock is pretty decent. I removed the mag tube detent to allow a +2 extension. It’s been shot a lot, it been a loaner for the high school trap shooting, never had an issue with it.
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Slamfire is fun, but is generally not very useful other than for wasting ammo.
I did it a couple of times as a test and that was enough.
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I did it a couple of times as a test and that was enough.
I did it once while hunting in sleet and freezing rain. Shot at a rooster pheasant and racked the gun for a second bang because the trigger was iced up and stuck back. It was pointed in a safe direction though.
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I own a 500, probably about 40 years old. The safety went bad and was a bit of a pain to fix with some odd screw placement or something, don't recall the annoyance.
I think I'll get an 870. Perhaps the "chrome" model because I live in a salt marsh.
Either brand is fine, but I lean to the 870 because I carried one for decades.... muscle memory stuff.
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If you are getting new, you might see what reviews there are for new Remington's. The same guy who ran Remington into bankruptcy lead a new investment group to buy the current iteration.
If you are getting an older shotgun, I never heard anything bad about the older 870's. You might look around and see if any Police trade-in guns are on the market.
The only Mossberg I have experience with recently is the Maverick 88. It performed perfectly, but was a lower capacity model and I sold it during the COVID times.
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I have a nearly new 590 with an 18" barrel and 7+1 capacity. I replaced the magazine follower with a Vang Comp stainless steel follower and the plastic safety with a metal "Big Speed Safety" from Vang Comp. Both of those changes were made to improve long-term functionality/reliability. Then, I replaced the factory stock for a MagPul SGA stock and the forend with a MagPul M-LOK forend. The SGA stock lets you decrease the pull from a "sporting" length to something more suitable for a squared stance. The forend will facilitate mounting a sling and/or a light should I choose to do so.
BTW, swapping out the safety wasn't that big of a deal. Mossberg does use a tamper-resistant screw but it wasn't that big of a deal to get it out. Vang Comp supplies a replacement socket head cap screw with the Big Speed Safety.
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Hard to go wrong with either of those. I was shopping for a Mossy a few years back. I grew up with a Smith shotgun, and liked having the safety in the same place. The day I was at the lgs, they were putting out on the used rack a Remington HD model that was bought by a home owner who fired one box of shells through it before trading it in on something else. Price with a side saddle shell holder and a soft case was $250. The new Mossy I was looking at was around $100 more. Spent the savings on shells and trained on the safety.
Mike, I guessing your Smith has the safety the same as my dad's, so the Mossy safety will be the same position and operation. That's the only plus I can think of for one over the ither for you.
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Off topic: But Ian from forgotten weapons just did a Slam fire vs normal fire comparison video with an 1897 Trench Gun and a tricked out 870. Was neat to watch.
Oh! On topic, I think he was doing a contest to give away the Trench gun. That's definatly what you need! :D
I watched that video a few weeks ago. It basically reinforced everything I already knew about slam firing my Dad's Ithaca 37. It's fun, but has VERY questionable utility.
Herb Parsons, the Winchester exhibition shooter, would use a Model 12 to break 7 clay birds that were thrown simultaneously. Some people accused him of slam firing the gun, so Winchester put a high speed camera on him that showed him pulling the trigger for each shot. I guess even back then people thought slam fire had more utility than it actually has.
I know where there are a half dozen completely authentic World War I Model 97 trench guns.
Unfortunately they are owned by the Pennsylvania museum system and will never see the collectors market.
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I own a 500, probably about 40 years old. The safety went bad and was a bit of a pain to fix with some odd screw placement or something, don't recall the annoyance.
That's right, it was YOUR Mossberg with the borked safety. I couldn't remember whose it was. You had the armorer at your work fix it, IIRC? I know I didn't because of that weird screw.
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Interesting. Winchester has a modern interpretation of the Trench Gun based on the SXP.
Looks weird.
https://www.budsgunshop.com/product_info.php/products_id/411559926/winchester+sxp+trench+shtg+12m+18cb
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Even better, I'm finding some really positive reviews on the general SXP platform.
This may bear reconsidering what I'm going to do.
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https://www.budsgunshop.com/product_info.php/products_id/52704/winchester+super+x+defender+5+1+3+12+ga+18
Very good reviews at Bud's.
Yeah, made in Turkey, but anymore that doesn't really seem to be an issue anymore.
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I used to have a stevens 235 side by side... Barrels were bobbed to 18.5", and with basically no extra receiver length, it was VERY maneuverable... External hammers, so I didn't feel bad about leaving it loaded.
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Off topic: But Ian from forgotten weapons just did a Slam fire vs normal fire comparison video with an 1897 Trench Gun and a tricked out 870. Was neat to watch.
Oh! On topic, I think he was doing a contest to give away the Trench gun. That's definatly what you need! :D
Saw that. The guy was actually slightly faster with the modern non-slam fire 870 but IIRC he stated the 1897's furniture being harder to get a good grip on may have been part of that and he also admitted he is far more experienced with the 870 as well. Overall I got the impression the slam fire feature isn't actually faster and probably not worth the safety risks
Video
https://youtu.be/jksldX33HAY
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I used to have a stevens 235 side by side... Barrels were bobbed to 18.5", and with basically no extra receiver length, it was VERY maneuverable... External hammers, so I didn't feel bad about leaving it loaded.
I've not seen a 235 for years and years.
I have an Ithaca New Gun double barrel hammer gun. It was, I believe, my Great Grandfather's farm gun. It certainly looks like it was used on the farm. Beaten around pretty good. The firing pins are broken and the barrel lug needs to be resoldered.
I was going to send it to Diamond Gunsmithing in Ithaca, NY, for an evaluation and repair, but their gunsmith died. I waited too long.
My current working double is a SxS Stevens 311/5200 in 20 gauge. Absolutely love that one.
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I like the loading gate staying out of the way and slide release button better on the 590.
590 wins on safety visibility and works reasonably well with a standard stock but is a no go with a pistol gripped stock
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I used to have a stevens 235 side by side... Barrels were bobbed to 18.5", and with basically no extra receiver length, it was VERY maneuverable... External hammers, so I didn't feel bad about leaving it loaded.
As I know nothing about the 870, I'll leave that side alone.
I do have a Mossberg 500-C pump with chokes for both lead and steel shot (currently loaded with 3" steel "F"). I also have a Stevens SxS but it is a (slightly) newer 311 that I had a gunsmith bore it out and put in screw-ins. This basically turned my 311 to a 511. It is loaded with 2 - 3" shells, OO Buck on one side and #4 Buck on the other. >:D
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>:D AND, just make this more interesting, how many of you heard about the new "Circuit Judge" revolving rifle? It is a revolving carbine that takes both .45 and .410 3 inch shells.
https://rossiusa.com/rifles/circuit-judge
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>:D AND, just make this more interesting, how many of you heard about the new "Circuit Judge" revolving rifle? It is a revolving carbine that takes both .45 and .410 3 inch shells.
https://rossiusa.com/rifles/circuit-judge
You might want to watch Paul Harrell's review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTyUPsb9eqw
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https://www.budsgunshop.com/product_info.php/products_id/52704/winchester+super+x+defender+5+1+3+12+ga+18
Very good reviews at Bud's.
Yeah, made in Turkey, but anymore that doesn't really seem to be an issue anymore.
Turkey has made shotguns for a lot of American brands for decades.
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Ian released a followup video
Testing an Original WW1 Trench Gun w/ GI Buckshot: How Does it Pattern?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0m-3eP38JE
Spoiler alert:
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It patterned surprisingly well compared to a modern shotgun.
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I'm watching it right now.
As a teen I shot a bunch of paper hull slugs and buckshot (probably from just before/just after WW II) from a couple of shotguns. Never found any that wouldn't chamber in any of the shotguns that I used, but they weren't being stored/used in South Pacific humidity conditions.
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You might want to watch Paul Harrell's review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTyUPsb9eqw
Interesting and enlightening. The rifled barrel did what I was afraid it would do with shot.
Thanks Angel.
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In my opinion, if it's a .410 shotgun revolver, it's a stupid question that never should have been asked in the first place.
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In my opinion, if it's a .410 shotgun revolver, it's a stupid question that never should have been asked in the first place.
It's amazing to me how many ignorant people talk of the .410 revolvers as being awesome firearms that are the perfect defense weapons. ;/
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Even better, I'm finding some really positive reviews on the general SXP platform.
This may bear reconsidering what I'm going to do.
We had a new SXP failing miserably last night at trap practice. Many light primer strikes and misfires for reasons yet unknown.
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It's amazing to me how many ignorant people talk of the .410 revolvers as being awesome firearms that are the perfect defense weapons. ;/
I agree. It is an overpriced snake gun. A cheap 22 mag revolver with shot shells does just as well.
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Speaking of used Remington 870's....
LE Trade-in Remington 870 Express 28in Barrel 12 Gauge Shotgun
https://aimsurplus.com/products/le-trade-in-remington-870-express-28in-barrel-12-gauge-shotgun?c=FRI09292023&mc_cid=0c580b4b21&mc_eid=2d3cb38bb0
I assume one would plan on getting an 18" barrel and a tube extension which would add to the total cost.
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Sportsman's Warehouse has 870 Tacticals on sale for $390 right now.
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We had a new SXP failing miserably last night at trap practice. Many light primer strikes and misfires for reasons yet unknown.
My Remington 58 failed at wobble trap some years ago.
Extractor hook sheared off.
Problems happen.