Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: MechAg94 on May 21, 2024, 10:55:40 PM
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Remington 12ga #4 Buckshot Ballistics Gel Test - Best Home Defense Load? 🇺🇸
Mrgunsngear Channel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6cmGHz-4O4
I saw a comment that Mrgunsngear had a gel test for #4 buck on his channel. Found this one. About halfway into the video, you can see the gel block. Looks like no shot went all the way through the block. The shot is smaller, but that is a lot of wound tracks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNb2uvezzx0
Federal #1 buck with flight control wad.
A good demonstration of why people like 12 gauge for home defense.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_33USEwWA0
Patterning with a Mossberg Shockwave 590. Better than I expected.
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So, the news has a story on right now about a psycho escaping from a transport, and it happened a half mile from your house!
Now... you have the choice between a .32 that holds 9 shots, and a .25 with a frickin' gigglestick and da switch...
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I run 00 federal flite control in my HD 870. 6 rounds of that and the last round in the pipe is a 3" magnum slug. Side saddle carries 5 more 00 and another slug. I really like how the buck patterns out of my 870 with the flite control wad and unless there's a really compelling reason I likely won't switch to the #1 buck.
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Had a discussion the other day about what would be best for drones after watching Ukraine videos. We figured 4 buck would probably have the best combination of range, shot pattern, and power.
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https://youtu.be/a1F-MQ80IS4?si=aoh9AVtVmCWMapNQ
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Had a discussion the other day about what would be best for drones after watching Ukraine videos. We figured 4 buck would probably have the best combination of range, shot pattern, and power.
I'll stick with #4 birdshot for non-military UAVs. Denser patterns.
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I'll stick with #4 birdshot for non-military UAVs. Denser patterns.
Likely the better choice for anything within shotgun range. FPV drones are pretty darn fragile.
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No. 4 buck has been my round of choice for home defense since I bought my home in 1993.
27 .24-caliber pellets is going to ruin the hell out of someone's day at household distance.
If I do ever need something heavier, there's the 5 rounds of 00 buck in the carrier. It's not the standard load, it's got an extra layer of 00 pellets, for a total payload of 12. Done with a roll crimp and card overwad.
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Timing how long it takes for grenades to drop in Ukraine, they are 150-200 ft up. Even #2 birdshot is a little weak at that altitude.
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Timing how long it takes for grenades to drop in Ukraine, they are 150-200 ft up. Even #2 birdshot is a little weak at that altitude.
Certainly distance plays a large part. While some guys might, I don't take shots at geese at more than 50 yards with BB. I'm kinda curious if anybody on the youtubes has bought a bundle of the $25 drones on Amazon and tried to shoot them down at various altitudes/speeds with different shotgun loads. If they haven't, maybe Garand Thumb should. It sounds like "science" right up his alley. I know he's done one where they were hunted by a drone, but I don't think they shot back, because it was an expensive drone.
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Certainly distance plays a large part. While some guys might, I don't take shots at geese at more than 50 yards with BB. I'm kinda curious if anybody on the youtubes has bought a bundle of the $25 drones on Amazon and tried to shoot them down at various altitudes/speeds with different shotgun loads. If they haven't, maybe Garand Thumb should. It sounds like "science" right up his alley. I know he's done one where they were hunted by a drone, but I don't think they shot back, because it was an expensive drone.
Irangetv did a video, but mentioned some legal issues with doing that. I think it was around being licensed to fly drones rather than shooting at them.
My thought is something on the order of a goose gun with shot meant for longer range. I was thinking some 3" heavy tungsten shot or whatever is similar.
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So, the news has a story on right now about a psycho escaping from a transport, and it happened a half mile from your house!
Now... you have the choice between a .32 that holds 9 shots, and a .25 with a frickin' gigglestick and da switch...
My issue with that analogy is normal name-brand 12 gauge has a good bit higher velocity than 32 acp or 25 acp. 1200 to 1300 FPS is normal. over 1100 FPS for the cheaper stuff. I thought both of those pistol calibers were under 1000 FPS.
Edit to add: Wiki says up to 900 FPS for 25 acp and up to 1100 FPS for 32 acp.
IMO, the benefit or trauma is 9 or 20 pellets hitting the target at the same time making separate would tracks (or one big ragged hole at short range).
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I'll stick with #4 birdshot for non-military UAVs. Denser patterns.
Military drones for use at the "Infantryman" level are not physically hardened much more than a DJI drone. For anyone planning on being a partisan.
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(https://i.gifer.com/4wUU.gif)
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Military drones for use at the "Infantryman" level are not physically hardened much more than a DJI drone. For anyone planning on being a partisan.
Hence gaffer's tape is part of the field kit for at least the RQ-11s and RQ-20s. =)
Though with their EOIRs, they can get what they need and do their smoke and target painting at well out of resistance fighter range. And with something like a Switchblade, I reckon by the time you see it, it's moving too fast for you to do anything about it.
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https://www.basspro.com/shop/en/browning-tss-tungsten-turkey-shotshells
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https://www.phoenixrising.store/tss-armor-piercing-buckshot-12-gauge-2-34.html
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Military drones for use at the "Infantryman" level are not physically hardened much more than a DJI drone. For anyone planning on being a partisan.
Why just partisans? Looking at content out of Ukraine, the regular forces are using tons of little drones with grenades or suicide drones with bigger charges. I saw one video showing they identified trenches feeding into a tunnel/bunker that they couldn't get grenades into. They flew a suicide drone in with a larger charge, landed on top, and blew a big hole and collapsed the tunnel.
Looks like it is going to be a regular part of warfare going forward unless there is some serious hacking or area denial developments. I assume the drones will get better as the big defense industries get their own product lines. I guess we are seeing some of that already.
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Interesting videos MechAge.
I didn't hear anything about the "choke" they were using on those shotguns. I also wonder why 2.75" shells vs. 3" loads.
I have an older Stevens SxS with a 3" #4 Buck (40 pellets) in the left barrel with a "skeet #1" choke (1 tighter than "cylinder") and a 3" OO Buck (15 pellets) with an "improved cyl." choke in the right barrel. As this gun has 2 triggers, it can produce a "cloud" of 55 pellets that should be effective, even if the intruder has body armor. As the late G. Gordon Liddy used to say on his radio show - "Body armor doesn't cover everything."
If I were to ever have to use that gun on an intruder, the two best points to hit are either the neck area (carotid artery and/or jugular vein) or the groin (femoral arteries) as they are less likely to be protected and the crotch can either take out the artery or break the thigh, putting them on the ground. The neck is the lesser target as the intruder can move his head and torso much more quickly than their legs.
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I am sure the choke would change a lot. Last time I patterned buck shot, mine spread a bit more than what the videos showed. What I loved seeing was the #4 buck penetrating all the way through the block and stopping. I know some are usually concerned about over-penetration.
I will say the flight control wad that Federal sells is very good. From what I saw, it holds the shot together for 10 yards or so out of the muzzle.
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About 15 years ago I bought a packet of three 12 gauge flechette rounds but never fired one. I dissected one and without testing, I figured they wouldn't really fly point first reliably so they're never seen the inside of a 12ga chamber. I see they're still on the market, but I wonder if this is because of the gimmick factor or their real effectiveness.
Anybody ever use them?
Terry, 230RN
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About 15 years ago I bought a packet of three 12 gauge flechette rounds but never fired one. I dissected one and without testing, I figured they wouldn't really fly point first reliably so they're never seen the inside of a 12ga chamber. I see they're still on the market, but I wonder if this is because of the gimmick factor or their real effectiveness.
Anybody ever use them?
Terry, 230RN
Not something I'd ever use for real. I could see getting some as a novelty, but using then in self defense situations would be asking for lawfare. It's super dumb. Deadly force is either justified or not. Ammo choice doesn't really play into that. But there are too many DA's that don't really believe in 2A for me to risk giving them an excuse to prosecute what would otherwise be am easy case for self defense.
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Not something I'd ever use for real. I could see getting some as a novelty, but using then in self defense situations would be asking for lawfare. It's super dumb. Deadly force is either justified or not. Ammo choice doesn't really play into that. But there are too many DA's that don't really believe in 2A for me to risk giving them an excuse to prosecute what would otherwise be am easy case for self defense.
Seen cases where they claimed the use of hollow points indicated an intend to kill someone. So yeah, you got DAs and prosecutors willing to use ammo choice against you
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About 15 years ago I bought a packet of three 12 gauge flechette rounds but never fired one. I dissected one and without testing, I figured they wouldn't really fly point first reliably so they're never seen the inside of a 12ga chamber. I see they're still on the market, but I wonder if this is because of the gimmick factor or their real effectiveness.
Anybody ever use them?
Terry, 230RN
The Army tried issuing flechette rounds during the Vietnam war. They figured that they would penetrate the jungle vegetation a lot more easily than buckshot and thus would be more reliable stoppers.
After a few months in the field, `troops were screaming bloody murder to get their buckshot rounds back. The flechettes did penetrate the jungle plants better, but they had virtually no wounding or stopping power. There were numerous verified reports of enemy soldiers getting hit with flechettes and basically not even noticing.
The flechettes were inaccurate as hell, spread quickly, didn't cause much in the way of wounds, and lost power VERY quickly because the individual flechettes were so light.
The rounds were withdrawn from service and never reintroduced.
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Saw a youtube a bit back about a "rods from god" 12 gauge shell... A central thing that acted as a penetrator, with about a half-dozen steel sticks (think handgun cylinder) around it, held together with a little thing, which would theoretically hold together until it hits, then those sticks keep going sidewaysish. The penetrator would go through a non-plate vest...
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Besides shotgun and grenade launcher flechette rounds, the Army also experimented with flechette rifles. The flechette would have a hardened point to enhance penetration, but the body of the flechette was softer and would bend into a fish hook shape upon impact and increase terminal effect. Some sources claim this was not "Hague accords" friendly causing termination of the program, other reasons given for program termination were poor accuracy. Whatever improvements WERE realized were deemed insufficient to merit replacing the M16 family of weapons.
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The only flechette rounds that saw any useful impact in Vietnam were the so-called Beehive rounds developed for 90mm, 105mm, and I THINK 240mm.
The difference, though, was that the flechettes developed for artillery delivery were substantially larger and heavier than those developed for shotgun or grenade launcher use.
I seem to recall those being somewhere around .30 caliber in diameter with a weight of around 120-150 grains. There was a lot more energy there to do damage.
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I can't see 12 gauge flachette rounds being useful until the flachettes are made of tungsten or something heavy. Not much better than using steel bird shot at distance.
One round I haven't seen testing on is some Winchester 12 gauge that had buckshot pellets that were partially cut in half. Supposed to break up into more fragments when it hits.
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^^^^, all.
Yeah, thanks, kind of what I figured except for the legal aspects Northwoods pointed out --I didn't think that far ahead and just kind of dismissed it.
On the other hand, shotgun-wise,I guess even an ounce of water going at over 1000 f/s will have knockdown power. *
I always figured high number of pellets = good, big size of pellets = good, so best compromise was #4 buck. This, independent of gauge or charge weight, within reasonable mechanical limits and other "what ifs."
Terry, 230RN
*ETA 972 ft-lb, to save you the trouble.
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About 15 years ago I bought a packet of three 12 gauge flechette rounds but never fired one. I dissected one and without testing, I figured they wouldn't really fly point first reliably so they're never seen the inside of a 12ga chamber. I see they're still on the market, but I wonder if this is because of the gimmick factor or their real effectiveness.
Anybody ever use them?
Terry, 230RN
I vaguely remember seeing a video on those things many years ago. Because of their light weight, they were lousy at penetrating anything, even a bare gel block. IIRC, the gel block's end looked like a bad game of "darts" as some were "point in (barely) and some had tumbled and went in sideways and were just on the surface.
There is another shell I saw called "Dragonfire" (which ILL-ANNOY has banned) that makes spurt of flame for about half a second and 8-10' long.
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Federal Shorty 00 buck and #4 buck. Shockwave. Clear Ballistics Gelatin.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HickaAVzBH4
Testing of the short 1-3/4" Federal buck shot in gel. Good information if you know someone who can't handle full 12 gauge recoil.
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Does anyone know of a maker of No. 4 buck rounds that does a top wad roll crimp instead of a folded crimp?
I have 00 buck rounds from S&B that have a top wad roll crimp, which results in a hull that can fit an extra layer of 00 pellets -- 12 instead of the usual 9.
I figure that a similar No. 4 round would have enough extra room for up to 32 or so pellets.
Hum... well it looks like S&B also makes No 4 buck with a top wad roll crimp in 2 3/4". Interesting. Now to find some.
OK, Ammoman.com has it. But, they're only putting 27 pellets in the shell... only 3 more than what Winchester & Remington puts in their fold crimped shells.
Not sure only 3 extra pellets is worth it. I think I'll just stick with my Winchester & Remington No. 4.
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How much would the extra shot slow down the velocity?
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Why just partisans? Looking at content out of Ukraine, the regular forces are using tons of little drones with grenades or suicide drones with bigger charges. I saw one video showing they identified trenches feeding into a tunnel/bunker that they couldn't get grenades into. They flew a suicide drone in with a larger charge, landed on top, and blew a big hole and collapsed the tunnel.
Looks like it is going to be a regular part of warfare going forward unless there is some serious hacking or area denial developments. I assume the drones will get better as the big defense industries get their own product lines. I guess we are seeing some of that already.
I said that post was for partisans because regular forces (at least US ones) have other ways to counter drones than shooting them with shotguns. That's going to end up being a more partisans/asymmetric warfare solution.
And while you don't need heavy shot because the drones are pretty fragile, it will still be a challenge. They tend to loiter at higher altitudes than most birdshot/bird/clay engagements, and they move a LOT faster. I'm nowhere near a good enough shotgunner to tell you what shot size/choke you need but I can tell you you are looking at a target no more than 2' in size, maybe smaller, 300-500 foot away and capable of 60-80 mph, and very abrupt direction changes. Those videos you see from Ukraine of a dude being chased are more of a final approach than how they hunt.
I can tell you that the Army played a little with trying our current issue shotguns and shells against small drones and decided that was not a great answer.
You are correct though, these things are going to be a part of warfare going forward both near peer and asymmetric.
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How much would the extra shot slow down the velocity?
Unknown.
I THINK the S&B 00 shells that I have claim 1200 fps. Don't know what barrel length, though.
All I do know is that they kick like mad out of my S&W 3000.
I would NOT want to fire them out of my Ithaca.
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Unknown.
I THINK the S&B 00 shells that I have claim 1200 fps. Don't know what barrel length, though.
All I do know is that they kick like mad out of my S&W 3000.
I would NOT want to fire them out of my Ithaca.
FYI - as previously mentioned, my SxS has double triggers. I have fired both barrels with those 3" shells with the gun held 2 ways - 1 at the shoulder and 2 at my hip - actually braced against the hip where the leg meets the torso.
I also don't recommend the shoulder, even if you are prepared and leaning into the target.
With the stock against my hip, my body was better able to absorb the recoil and the gun was at a better level for hitting you attacker's groin.
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Years ago I fired a slug out of my Ithaca Featherlite.
HUGE mistake.