Post by: roo_ster on June 02, 2007, 07:43:26 PM
I was musing in my car about the Texas State Lottery and I found that I despise for many and varied reasons.
The Stupid Tax
The TSL is a tax on stupidity. The odds make a Vegas casino look like it runs about slinging cash at gamblers, wily-nilly. Lotto, scratch-offs, whatever. The return expected for the expenditure is something MS Excel would likely round off to zero, even in its memory space.
So, you'd have to be an idiot or have a momentary lapse of reason to buy a ticket.
I can see the libertoids coming out of the woodwork (I thought I sprayed for them last week?). "They make their own choices and spend their own money. What's the problem? You just want to control peoples' live, you statist."
Yeah, whatever. I am no advocate for the gooberment solving every one of life's problems, of which stupid folks have more than their fair share. I also don't think gooberment ought to actively work to make stupid folks' lives harder.
Extortion, Monopoly, and the State
If I tried to set up a numbers game along the lines of the lottery and guaranteed the profits would go to my kids education, I would still go to jail. The State will brook no competition in its bilking of the mouth-breathers.
It Helps Education
Right. The folks who make that argument have many misunderstandings or are just plain lying. One of many problems with that claim: the profit the lottery makes may go directly into the Dept Ed coffers, but that means only that that many dollars of general revenue can go someplace other than the Dept of Ed. No more (net) dollars for the Dept of Ed to (mis)spend.
Gas Station Decision-Makers
Every once in a while I actually go inside to pay so I can get a drink. It never fails that I get behind a lottery scratch-off player. It usually takes them quite a while to figure out how to toss thier money away. I must fight the urge to say, "Pick the one with the prettiest colors. That way, in a few years, you can paper your bathroom in them and have the world's most expensively papered bathroom."
Post by: Boomhauer on June 02, 2007, 08:11:24 PM
Add the fact that most, if not all of the lottery winners go broke after winning it. They get on a buying spree and try to maintain that lifestyle beyond the reach. Even if you when something like 300 mil, it is really not that much.
There was a thread discussing this very subject some months ago.
Post by: RevDisk on June 02, 2007, 09:13:08 PM
So, you'd have to be an idiot or have a momentary lapse of reason to buy a ticket.
I can see the libertoids coming out of the woodwork (I thought I sprayed for them last week?). "They make their own choices and spend their own money. What's the problem? You just want to control peoples' live, you statist."
Yeah, whatever. I am no advocate for the gooberment solving every one of life's problems, of which stupid folks have more than their fair share. I also don't think gooberment ought to actively work to make stupid folks' lives harder.
I can see the libertoids coming out of the woodwork (I thought I sprayed for them last week?). "They make their own choices and spend their own money. What's the problem? You just want to control peoples' live, you statist."
Yeah, whatever. I am no advocate for the gooberment solving every one of life's problems, of which stupid folks have more than their fair share. I also don't think gooberment ought to actively work to make stupid folks' lives harder.
I admit, I've bought a couple lotto tickets over the years. Maybe five or six times in the entire span of my life. Probably less than $30 combined, which is less than a trip to the movies these days. It was neither stupidity nor lapse of reason, just entertainment. I got a chuckle out of it and pondering immense wealth tickled for a bit. Which is more than some of the gods-awful crap Hollywood has provided.
No one is holding a gun to folks' head and making them lay down their money. Yes, it's a tax on people that can't do math, but it's a voluntary one.
Post by: The Rabbi on June 03, 2007, 04:07:08 AM
That said, if private companies promoted lotteries the way the state does they'd be sued. And a feature of lotteries is that they become less and less profitable as time goes on, forcing the state to spend more money on ads and promising even more outlandish things.
And yes, since money is fungible, the money flowing to ed departments (like they need any more anyway) merely replaces other money which feeds big gov't.
Post by: onions! on June 03, 2007, 04:36:01 AM
I work with a woman who just turned forty.She has three kids(10,15,&17) & a forty year old husband who won't work.The guy hasn't worked since his eldest was in pre-school.Useless,he plays computer games & smokes pot for a life (I call my co-worker,the wife,The Enabler).Any ways,her gross pay is $25-26K/yr.Her federal return is "over five thousand"/yr.& they both buy lottery tickets.So,the rest of us pay taxes so that they can re-cycle tax dollars back into the States' coffers.& drive a newer car.& go on vacations.&,oh yeah,not have to work.
I sometimes wonder how someones brain can be programmed such that they don't even feel a little guilty about living on other peoples' backs.
Post by: K Frame on June 03, 2007, 04:37:19 AM
I've won a couple hundred in instant scratch over the years, and nothing in drawings.
Why do I buy them?
Because they AMUSE me. They don't amuse you? That's fine, you're not me, and I'm not, nor do I want to be, you.
Some people like to wager small stakes, and the lottery provides a way of doing that without having to find a casino, or without going to a quasi-legal sports book.
Ultimately, who are you to say how people find their diversions.
As for it being a tax on the stupid, there are precious few taxes that aren't taxes on the stupid.
Now, just think about it.
In the time it took you to post that protracted whine and cheese festival, you could have scratched off a winning lottery ticket and set yourself up for your next vacation....
Post by: Art Eatman on June 03, 2007, 05:16:12 AM
The only part of it that gripes me is the same as folks above have said: Hypocrisy, in that the state can promote gambling but I can't legally have friends over for money poker.
Art
Post by: Jamisjockey on June 03, 2007, 06:18:12 AM
I buy lottery tickets occasionally.
I've won a couple hundred in instant scratch over the years, and nothing in drawings.
Why do I buy them?
Because they AMUSE me. They don't amuse you? That's fine, you're not me, and I'm not, nor do I want to be, you.
Some people like to wager small stakes, and the lottery provides a way of doing that without having to find a casino, or without going to a quasi-legal sports book.
Ultimately, who are you to say how people find their diversions.
As for it being a tax on the stupid, there are precious few taxes that aren't taxes on the stupid.
Now, just think about it.
In the time it took you to post that protracted whine and cheese festival, you could have scratched off a winning lottery ticket and set yourself up for your next vacation....
I've won a couple hundred in instant scratch over the years, and nothing in drawings.
Why do I buy them?
Because they AMUSE me. They don't amuse you? That's fine, you're not me, and I'm not, nor do I want to be, you.
Some people like to wager small stakes, and the lottery provides a way of doing that without having to find a casino, or without going to a quasi-legal sports book.
Ultimately, who are you to say how people find their diversions.
As for it being a tax on the stupid, there are precious few taxes that aren't taxes on the stupid.
Now, just think about it.
In the time it took you to post that protracted whine and cheese festival, you could have scratched off a winning lottery ticket and set yourself up for your next vacation....
You nailed my sentiments exactly.
Quote
Add the fact that most, if not all of the lottery winners go broke after winning it. They get on a buying spree and try to maintain that lifestyle beyond the reach. Even if you when something like 300 mil, it is really not that much.
How is it my problem that if someone has a multi-million dollar windfall, they are too stupid or lazy or irresponsible to be smart about it? How is it any different than if they were to win a multi-million dollar lawsuit and piss it away? How someone spends thier money is not my problem.
Post by: Ben on June 03, 2007, 06:36:20 AM
If the Libertarian philosophy is that ticket buyers can do whatever they want, my Republitarian philosophy is that the lottery is poetic justice for me. I have to pull the cart for the majority of the demographic that buys lottery tickets. If the bajillion to one odds get that same demographic to unknowingly chip in, if only for a token amount, I at least get some small satisfaction.
Now if only the overhead to run the lottery would also be contributed to the coffers....
Post by: Chuck Dye on June 03, 2007, 07:47:57 AM
[reverb]"Murray! Ya gotta buy a ticket!"[/reverb]
So, to amuse myself and feed the fantasy, I occasionally buy a ticket, but only if the jackpot exceeds the odds against for the game at hand.
Post by: auschip on June 05, 2007, 05:42:06 AM
Post by: crt360 on June 05, 2007, 05:43:46 AM
Post by: roo_ster on June 05, 2007, 06:04:19 AM
Do any of y'all who are buyers of current state-produced lottery tickets think you will derive less pleasure scratching off privately-produced cards in a privately-run lottery with better odds of winning?
My problem with state lotteries is not with folks deriving pleasure from them. My problem is more along the lines of:
1. It is run by the gooberment.
2. The gooberment is making life more difficult for those less encumbered with intelligence, rather than remaining neutral and letting the market fleece them in its good time.
3. The gooberment gives odds worse than any private company would dare, under risk of prosecution.
4. The gooberment protects its monopoly with the threat of force.
5. The gooberment pretends to do it "for the children."
The mouth-breathers inconveniencing everyone at the stop-n-rob counter are annoying, but not outrageous in the way the gooberment is. crt360 gave some of the detail.
Post by: K Frame on June 05, 2007, 06:27:20 AM
That's the store clerk's fault.
You try that at a 7-11 around here and you get moved along.
Also saw a clerk tell a lady to go to the back of the line when she walked up and tried to butt in to redeem a ticket.
Post by: K Frame on June 05, 2007, 06:28:20 AM
My last reply got nailed in all the DDOS fun & games, so I'll be brief. <cheers form the audience>
Do any of y'all who are buyers of current state-produced lottery tickets think you will derive less pleasure scratching off privately-produced cards in a privately-run lottery with better odds of winning?
My problem with state lotteries is not with folks deriving pleasure from them. My problem is more along the lines of:
1. It is run by the gooberment.
2. The gooberment is making life more difficult for those less encumbered with intelligence, rather than remaining neutral and letting the market fleece them in its good time.
3. The gooberment gives odds worse than any private company would dare, under risk of prosecution.
4. The gooberment protects its monopoly with the threat of force.
5. The gooberment pretends to do it "for the children."
The mouth-breathers inconveniencing everyone at the stop-n-rob counter are annoying, but not outrageous in the way the gooberment is. crt360 gave some of the detail.
Do any of y'all who are buyers of current state-produced lottery tickets think you will derive less pleasure scratching off privately-produced cards in a privately-run lottery with better odds of winning?
My problem with state lotteries is not with folks deriving pleasure from them. My problem is more along the lines of:
1. It is run by the gooberment.
2. The gooberment is making life more difficult for those less encumbered with intelligence, rather than remaining neutral and letting the market fleece them in its good time.
3. The gooberment gives odds worse than any private company would dare, under risk of prosecution.
4. The gooberment protects its monopoly with the threat of force.
5. The gooberment pretends to do it "for the children."
The mouth-breathers inconveniencing everyone at the stop-n-rob counter are annoying, but not outrageous in the way the gooberment is. crt360 gave some of the detail.
Yeah yeah we get it...
THE BIG EVIL GOVERNMENT IS CRUSHING MY SKULL WITH THE LOTTERY OF DOOM!
You been reading Shirley Jackson stories again?
Post by: roo_ster on June 05, 2007, 08:06:36 AM
No, my skull is not being crushed by the state lottery. It is the disposable income of the feebs who play the lottery that takes the hit. Also, folks who want a better gambling product and a choice with whom to gamble are are left without options.
I am not a money-gambler and find no attraction to it. However, if gambling is to be legal, I would much rather it be run in the private/commercial sphere where competition would provide a better product to the players.
But, if one's pleasure is found in the scratching, I guess it doesn't matter what the odds of winning are. In that case, a $0.99 bag of McDonald's fries with a scratch-off ought to serve, with the added bonus of fries.
Post by: K Frame on June 05, 2007, 08:18:25 AM
Bugsy Siegle, had he not been killed by his organized crime partners, would give you a big old kiss.
Hopefully it wouldn't be the kiss of death.
"The gooberment is making life more difficult for those less encumbered with intelligence..."
Oy veh.
Post by: Paddy on June 05, 2007, 08:41:24 AM
Quote
"I was one of about six people in line who gave up, put the stuff we were going to buy back and left a store, all because some woman had made the counter her personal lottery playground."
That's the store clerk's fault.
Exactly right.That's the store clerk's fault.
My only beef with the lottery is the spread between payoffs. Top prize is $$ millions and next prize is only a few tens of thousands. Need something in between. $70,000 for example is not a life changing amount of money; $500,000 is.
Post by: K Frame on June 05, 2007, 08:48:00 AM
I should also add that it's also the CUSTOMER'S fault for not asking the lady to move her butt so that the people behind her can check out while she's playing.
Post by: Brad Johnson on June 05, 2007, 09:37:48 AM
Quote
I should also add that it's also the CUSTOMER'S fault for not asking the lady to move her butt so that the people behind her can check out while she's playing.
I don't know. Judging by butt-tonnage on some people that insist on counter-hogging for scratchoffs, I'd be scared they might back over me.
- which brings up another related topic -
Some people really need to be reminded that Spandex is a privilege, not a right.
Brad
Post by: HankB on June 05, 2007, 09:48:32 AM
In the course of a year, I doubt I spend a grand total of $50 on tickets . . .
I do it for the dream, the fantasy of winning . . . I can daydream about how I could live off the interest (I wouldn't go broke!) and still greatly improve my lifestyle.
And then they draw the numbers, and reality sets in.
Post by: Jamisjockey on June 05, 2007, 10:18:53 AM
Post by: Perd Hapley on June 05, 2007, 12:22:04 PM
Quote
Every once in a while I actually go inside to pay so I can get a drink. It never fails that I get behind a lottery scratch-off player. It usually takes them quite a while to figure out how to toss thier money away.
Yes. Waiting for people to pick three of those and two of those, and two of them other kind is more than I should have to bear. Even if they don't scratch them off while I'm waiting.
Also, govt. should not be involved in such nonsense. It has enough nonsense going on in other areas.
I should add I'm putting on my spandex right, now, under my running pants.
The wife and I are actually going to start burning off some of her cooking.
Post by: MechAg94 on June 05, 2007, 01:17:40 PM
I play it for the fun and fantasy of it. The amount I spend is trivial to me at least. They had a $1000 a week for life game several years ago that I liked. It is for 20 years now and the odds are poor so I play it about once or twice a year. No other scratch offs.
The State Legislature did reduce the odds of winning on all the scratch off tickets several years ago. For some reason sales slumped. Who would have figured?
Post by: thebaldguy on June 05, 2007, 01:30:21 PM
Here in Minnesota, we were told how much good the lottery money would do. It would be a windfall for the state. Turns out our taxes have only went up since the lottery began. And they still need more money from the taxpayers. Figure that one out. What the hell have they done with all the money?
Many states have a daily 3 or pick 3 game. The odds of winning are 1000 to 1. The payout is only 500 to 1. Out east, the mafia run pick 3 pays 600 to 1. I've been told that the mob run game is more popular than the state run game. If I remember right, Gen. Colin Powell's father won a mob run daily 3 that he used as a down payment for a family home. I think he placed a $20 bet instead of a buck, and won a ton of cash.
Post by: Firethorn on June 05, 2007, 04:24:04 PM
What really irks me are payday loan places. I know of one guy who effectivly ended up paying 900+% interest, effective. Them and 'rent to own' places. From some ad inserts from a local paper, I compared 32" LCD HiDef TV's. One from a RTO place, one from Walmart. The payment plan was such that, for the payments, you could buy the TV from walmart for cash in 9 months. How long did they want those payments for? 36 months.
Sheesh...
Post by: mountainclmbr on June 05, 2007, 05:26:52 PM
Post by: Bogie on June 05, 2007, 05:34:35 PM
I don't go to Vegas. I think that'd likely cost about $200 just in gas.
The "buzz" pretty much lasts all year - ohmigawd, I could just tell the whole world to bleep off, and buy Fistful his very own George Michael dance revue...
Prob not going to happen, but what the heck. I know I can drop $100 easy at a local casino, and not have NEARLY as much fun...
And, for what it's worth, ANY investment strategy should contain a long shot or two... Most of my money's in mutual funds. Fine.
Post by: mountainclmbr on June 05, 2007, 05:40:56 PM
Post by: Perd Hapley on June 06, 2007, 01:56:34 AM
Quote
I could just tell the whole world to bleep off, and buy Fistful his very own George Michael dance revue...
Oh, you big thweetheart, you.
Post by: bdutton on June 07, 2007, 10:05:53 AM
So my opinion is slightly biased.
The lottery itself is a voluntary tax.
The business model is not ideal. The lottery department is itself a government agency and as such, the most inefficient model for running a business. They do make money but they could do better if not running as a government.
People like to gamble. If they are to spend their money gambling, where would you rather see them do it... at a casino or at a gas station and who would you rather see get that money... the state or a private enterprise (who would pay taxes of course). In the end, the government will get it's money.
Post by: Sylvilagus Aquaticus on June 07, 2007, 11:56:39 AM
They were already doing ok, financially, and their cost of living was modest. They've invested the annuity each year and gotten a nice return on it- nice enough they bought a second house in CO and drive nicer vehicles more frequently. IIRC, they've set up a family trust.
It's also amazing how there's no income you can't live beyond if you try a little. Just ask my ex.
Regards,
Rabbit.
Post by: MechAg94 on June 07, 2007, 12:40:29 PM
The old saying applies: A fool and his money are soon parted.
I imagine that lotto winners are deluged with people who are trying to help them spend or "manage" their money. If they are too gullible or just foolish, they could easily spend it all and then be stuck with property tax bills and such on the houses they bought. I remember one guy I read about who won around $1.5 million. He was putting in an underground garage to store his new car collection. I remember thinking that he is going to spend half his money building that and buy cars. The guy who won $300 million with MegaMillion declared bankruptcy last year. He was drunk every day and gambling all the time and he had some financial managers who blew a bunch of his money.
I think the best way is just what was said above. Put away as much of the money as possible and live off interest or set up some sort of permanent annuity. Anything to keep from spending it all or tying it up in debt. You might still have to work for a while, but the main goal (to me at least) is to make sure that you can be financially independent. That takes a little thought and planning. I hesitate to say you wouldn't work anymore because I imagine it would require a regular work schedule to insure you don't lose your money.
Post by: grislyatoms on June 09, 2007, 07:48:07 AM
Post by: Bogie on June 09, 2007, 11:42:12 AM
Either that, or a large valley and castle in Eastern Europe...
Post by: K Frame on June 09, 2007, 01:09:09 PM
I've often thought that if I win the lottery for any substantial amount that the first thing I do is disconnect the phone. The second thing is leave town for a month or more.
Post by: Stand_watie on June 09, 2007, 05:30:35 PM
Murray was an observant Jew, regularly part of the minyan at shul. Always as he was leaving, Murray would say, " And God, would it be so terrible I should win the lottery?" This went on for years until finally there came the voice from everywhere and nowhere at once:
[reverb]"Murray! Ya gotta buy a ticket!"[/reverb]
So, to amuse myself and feed the fantasy, I occasionally buy a ticket, but only if the jackpot exceeds the odds against for the game at hand.
[reverb]"Murray! Ya gotta buy a ticket!"[/reverb]
So, to amuse myself and feed the fantasy, I occasionally buy a ticket, but only if the jackpot exceeds the odds against for the game at hand.
Murray probably figured his odds of finding the winning ticket lying in the street were only slightly less than his odds of winning with a purchased ticket.
Post by: MechAg94 on June 10, 2007, 07:25:13 AM
Post by: ConfuseUs on June 11, 2007, 12:06:47 PM
The place where I work has a lottery pool of about 8-9 people playing the Powerball. I've figured (since I'm in the pool (but not to get rich(but I wouldn't mind that))) that the pool is large enough to increase the chance of winning part of the jackpot from 1:143 million to 1:3.5 million. The really fun part is telling the pool leader that mathematically there is no way to pick numbers such that the odds of wining are significantly increased, short of adding more people to the pool who will then split the jackpot into smaller pieces.
The other really funny part is "did we win anything?" followed by "yeah, we won $4", which really means "We won -$41" if you do the math. They never seem to understand that joke.
Post by: MechAg94 on June 11, 2007, 04:22:10 PM
The point is that if there is enough money involved, people will do things they wouldn't always do otherwise. Sort of like that question about sleeping with someone for a million dollars.
Post by: 2transams on June 12, 2007, 04:50:23 PM
But I'll never know,I don't play. I haven't bought one ticket in my whole life. Seems like a waste of money...you can say it's cheaper than a movie,but at least when Netflix shows up in my mailbox I'm guaranteed that I have a movie.
Last time the Mega Millions or Powerball or whatever the big one is got up to $300,000,000+ there were people on the news driving ten hours to buy tickets. Ten freakin' hours for lottery tickets. That's like me driving from home(St. Louis) to Dallas for lottery tickets. They figured the odds and said that you were more likely to be struck by lightning and be in a plane crash than win the jackpot.
Post by: roo_ster on June 12, 2007, 05:45:25 PM
They figured the odds and said that you were more likely to be struck by lightning and be in a plane crash than win the jackpot.
[dumb&dumber]So, what you're saying is...I have a chance!?[/dumb&dumber]
Post by: onions! on June 12, 2007, 06:00:31 PM
I was seventeen,broke,& needed gas.My '73 Grand Prix (455 4bbl=sluuuurp) was thirsty.I stopped at the Amoco station @ Bostwick Lake to get a couple of gallons on the way to work.I don't remember how much exactly I bought as I was paying w/rolled pennies.Probably less than five bucks.(this was 1987 or so,$5=+/- five & a half gallons.Remember those days?
)Anyways,I remember being a bit irked as I waited to pay for my gas.There was a guy in front of me that was in the process of dropping $100 on the Lotto.Easy pic,the lot,of course. ;/I'm still not sure how I felt as I watched him get into his new Beemer & drive away.I know that I wasn't envious.
That's all.
Post by: wmenorr67 on June 12, 2007, 11:30:15 PM
Post by: MechAg94 on June 13, 2007, 05:12:38 AM
Louisiana is only a few hours from my home. I still wouldn't drive over there just to buy Powerball tickets. I like playing, but I draw the line. However, there are lots of people around Houston who drive to the casinos in Louisiana to blow some money.