Post by: RadioFreeSeaLab on August 07, 2007, 01:05:17 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/07/nyregion/07bword.html?ei=5090&en=8bb9b60b7da0d2ed&ex=1344139200&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss&pagewanted=print
Quote
August 7, 2007
Its a Female Dog, or Worse. Or Endearing. And Illegal?
By MICHAEL M. GRYNBAUM
The New York City Council, which drew national headlines when it passed a symbolic citywide ban earlier this year on the use of the so-called n-word, has turned its linguistic (and legislative) lance toward a different slur: bitch.
The term is hateful and deeply sexist, said Councilwoman Darlene Mealy of Brooklyn, who has introduced a measure against the word, saying it creates a paradigm of shame and indignity for all women.
But conversations over the last week indicate that the b-word (as it is referred to in the legislation) enjoys a surprisingly strong currency and even some defenders among many New Yorkers.
And Ms. Mealy admitted that the citys political ruling class can be guilty of its use. As she circulated her proposal, she said, even council members are saying that they use it to their wives.
The measure, which 19 of the 51 council members have signed onto, was prompted in part by the frequent use of the word in hip-hop music. Ten rappers were cited in the legislation, along with an excerpt from an 1811 dictionary that defined the word as A she dog, or doggess; the most offensive appellation that can be given to an English woman.
While the bill also bans the slang word ho, the b-word appears to have acquired more shades of meaning among various groups, ranging from a term of camaraderie to, in a gerund form, an expression of emphatic approval. Ms. Mealy acknowledged that the measure was unenforceable, but she argued that it would carry symbolic power against the pejorative uses of the word. Even so, a number of New Yorkers said they were taken aback by the idea of prohibiting a term that they not only use, but do so with relish and affection.
Half my conversation would be gone, said Michael Musto, the Village Voice columnist, whom a reporter encountered on his bicycle on Sunday night on the corner of Seventh Avenue South and Christopher Street. Mr. Musto, widely known for his coverage of celebrity gossip, dismissed the idea as absurd.
On the downtown club scene, he said, munching on an apple, the two terms are often used as terms of endearment. We divest any negative implication from the word and toss it around with love.
Darris James, 31, an architect from Brooklyn who was outside the Duplex, a piano bar in the West Village, on Sunday night was similarly opposed. Hell, if I cant say bitch, I wouldnt be able to call half my friends.
They may not have been the kinds of reaction that Ms. Mealy, a Detroit-born former transit worker serving her first term, was expecting. They buried the n-word, but what about the other words that really affect women, such as b, and ho? Thats a vile attack on our womanhood, Ms. Mealy said in a telephone interview. In listening to my other colleagues, that they say that to their wives or their friends, we have gotten really complacent with it.
The resolution, introduced on July 25, was first reported by The Daily News. It is being considered by the Councils Civil Rights Committee and is expected to be discussed next month.
Many of those interviewed for this article acknowledged that the b-word could be quite vicious but insisted that context was everything.
I think its a description that is used insouciantly in the fashion industry, said Hamish Bowles, the European editor at large of Vogue, as he ordered a sushi special at the Condé Nast cafeteria last week. It would only be used in the fashion world with a sense of high irony and camp.
Mr. Bowles, in salmon seersucker and a purple polo, appeared amused by the Council measure. Its very Paris Is Burning, isnt it? he asked, referring to the film that captured the 1980s drag queen scene in New York.
The b-word has been used to refer to female dogs since around 1000 A.D., according to the Oxford English Dictionary, which traces the terms derogatory application to women to the 15th century; the entry notes that the term is not now in decent use.
But there is much evidence that the word for better or worse is part of the accepted vernacular of the city. The cover of this weeks New York magazine features the word, and syndicated episodes of Sex and the City, the chronicle of high-heeled Manhattan singledom, include it, though some obscenities were bleeped for its run on family-friendly TBS. A feminist journal with the word as its title is widely available in bookstores here, displayed in the front rung at Borders at the Time Warner Center.
Robin Lakoff, a Brooklyn-born linguist who teaches at the University of California, Berkeley, said that she despised the word, but that enforcing linguistic change through authority almost never works, echoing comments from some New Yorkers who believed a ban would only serve to heighten the words power.
If what the City Council wants to do is increase civility, it would have to be able to contextualize it, said Ms. Lakoff, who studies language and gender. You forbid the uses that drive people apart, but encourage the ones that drive people together. Which is not easy.
Councilman Leroy G. Comrie Jr., the Queens Democrat who successfully sponsored a symbolic moratorium on the n-word that was adopted Feb. 28, said he supported Ms. Mealys measure, but acknowledged that the term had many uses.
We want to make sure the context that its used is not a negative one, Mr. Comrie said yesterday.
Back at the West Village piano bar on Sunday evening, Poppi Kramer had just finished up her cabaret set. She scoffed at the proposal. Im a stand-up comic. You may as well just say to me, dont even use the word the.
But at least one person with a legitimate reason to use the word saw some merit in cutting down on its use.
Wed be grandfathered in, I would think, said David Frei, who has been a host of the Westminster Kennel Club dog show in New York since 1990. The word is a formal canine label that appears on the competitions official materials. But Mr. Frei said he worried about the words impact on some viewers, especially younger ones.
I think we have to take responsibility for that word on the air. The reality is its in the realm of responsible conduct to not use that word anymore.
Its a Female Dog, or Worse. Or Endearing. And Illegal?
By MICHAEL M. GRYNBAUM
The New York City Council, which drew national headlines when it passed a symbolic citywide ban earlier this year on the use of the so-called n-word, has turned its linguistic (and legislative) lance toward a different slur: bitch.
The term is hateful and deeply sexist, said Councilwoman Darlene Mealy of Brooklyn, who has introduced a measure against the word, saying it creates a paradigm of shame and indignity for all women.
But conversations over the last week indicate that the b-word (as it is referred to in the legislation) enjoys a surprisingly strong currency and even some defenders among many New Yorkers.
And Ms. Mealy admitted that the citys political ruling class can be guilty of its use. As she circulated her proposal, she said, even council members are saying that they use it to their wives.
The measure, which 19 of the 51 council members have signed onto, was prompted in part by the frequent use of the word in hip-hop music. Ten rappers were cited in the legislation, along with an excerpt from an 1811 dictionary that defined the word as A she dog, or doggess; the most offensive appellation that can be given to an English woman.
While the bill also bans the slang word ho, the b-word appears to have acquired more shades of meaning among various groups, ranging from a term of camaraderie to, in a gerund form, an expression of emphatic approval. Ms. Mealy acknowledged that the measure was unenforceable, but she argued that it would carry symbolic power against the pejorative uses of the word. Even so, a number of New Yorkers said they were taken aback by the idea of prohibiting a term that they not only use, but do so with relish and affection.
Half my conversation would be gone, said Michael Musto, the Village Voice columnist, whom a reporter encountered on his bicycle on Sunday night on the corner of Seventh Avenue South and Christopher Street. Mr. Musto, widely known for his coverage of celebrity gossip, dismissed the idea as absurd.
On the downtown club scene, he said, munching on an apple, the two terms are often used as terms of endearment. We divest any negative implication from the word and toss it around with love.
Darris James, 31, an architect from Brooklyn who was outside the Duplex, a piano bar in the West Village, on Sunday night was similarly opposed. Hell, if I cant say bitch, I wouldnt be able to call half my friends.
They may not have been the kinds of reaction that Ms. Mealy, a Detroit-born former transit worker serving her first term, was expecting. They buried the n-word, but what about the other words that really affect women, such as b, and ho? Thats a vile attack on our womanhood, Ms. Mealy said in a telephone interview. In listening to my other colleagues, that they say that to their wives or their friends, we have gotten really complacent with it.
The resolution, introduced on July 25, was first reported by The Daily News. It is being considered by the Councils Civil Rights Committee and is expected to be discussed next month.
Many of those interviewed for this article acknowledged that the b-word could be quite vicious but insisted that context was everything.
I think its a description that is used insouciantly in the fashion industry, said Hamish Bowles, the European editor at large of Vogue, as he ordered a sushi special at the Condé Nast cafeteria last week. It would only be used in the fashion world with a sense of high irony and camp.
Mr. Bowles, in salmon seersucker and a purple polo, appeared amused by the Council measure. Its very Paris Is Burning, isnt it? he asked, referring to the film that captured the 1980s drag queen scene in New York.
The b-word has been used to refer to female dogs since around 1000 A.D., according to the Oxford English Dictionary, which traces the terms derogatory application to women to the 15th century; the entry notes that the term is not now in decent use.
But there is much evidence that the word for better or worse is part of the accepted vernacular of the city. The cover of this weeks New York magazine features the word, and syndicated episodes of Sex and the City, the chronicle of high-heeled Manhattan singledom, include it, though some obscenities were bleeped for its run on family-friendly TBS. A feminist journal with the word as its title is widely available in bookstores here, displayed in the front rung at Borders at the Time Warner Center.
Robin Lakoff, a Brooklyn-born linguist who teaches at the University of California, Berkeley, said that she despised the word, but that enforcing linguistic change through authority almost never works, echoing comments from some New Yorkers who believed a ban would only serve to heighten the words power.
If what the City Council wants to do is increase civility, it would have to be able to contextualize it, said Ms. Lakoff, who studies language and gender. You forbid the uses that drive people apart, but encourage the ones that drive people together. Which is not easy.
Councilman Leroy G. Comrie Jr., the Queens Democrat who successfully sponsored a symbolic moratorium on the n-word that was adopted Feb. 28, said he supported Ms. Mealys measure, but acknowledged that the term had many uses.
We want to make sure the context that its used is not a negative one, Mr. Comrie said yesterday.
Back at the West Village piano bar on Sunday evening, Poppi Kramer had just finished up her cabaret set. She scoffed at the proposal. Im a stand-up comic. You may as well just say to me, dont even use the word the.
But at least one person with a legitimate reason to use the word saw some merit in cutting down on its use.
Wed be grandfathered in, I would think, said David Frei, who has been a host of the Westminster Kennel Club dog show in New York since 1990. The word is a formal canine label that appears on the competitions official materials. But Mr. Frei said he worried about the words impact on some viewers, especially younger ones.
I think we have to take responsibility for that word on the air. The reality is its in the realm of responsible conduct to not use that word anymore.
Post by: The Rabbi on August 07, 2007, 01:12:17 PM
Do you suppose it would ever occur to these jokers to enact legislation that would actually improve the quality of life in that cesspool? Something like allowing CCW, or closing all the public schools.
Post by: Len Budney on August 07, 2007, 01:50:25 PM
Post by: Firethorn on August 07, 2007, 02:57:47 PM
See? Once you start banning words, you just can't stop. Betcha can't ban one!(tm)
This is one of the reasons I object to banning words, or making them 'swears' that are politically incorrect. Just look at a good thesaurus for some behaviors considered incorrect over time - they'll have dozens of synonyms. For example, the meaning of the word prostitute is an alternate for words for at least two animals and three fruits.
For the preservation of the language, I propose we keep the words we have, as we have those words for a reason, and to ban or prohibit them will only create a reason to use another word for the purpose.
Post by: Perd Hapley on August 07, 2007, 03:02:39 PM
So, you ban a word in the name of feminism, and you're a great social reformer. You try to ban it in the name of decency, and you're the Taliban. Ah, irony. We Bible-Thumpers have been opposed to this word for a long time. When will the "feminists" catch up with us?
Post by: James Odom on August 08, 2007, 11:48:50 AM
Too bad we don't have some kind of Constitutional amendment to protect this sort of thing.
RT
Post by: Manedwolf on August 08, 2007, 11:50:39 AM
If NY bans that, what are we going to call Hillary?
Post by: mtnbkr on August 08, 2007, 11:57:51 AM
Where's the puking smiley...
Chris
Post by: m1911owner on August 08, 2007, 04:37:02 PM
Doesn't that result in about a 55% reduction in population?
Post by: grampster on August 08, 2007, 05:05:34 PM
Post by: tyme on August 08, 2007, 06:21:52 PM
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[Councilwoman Darlene] Mealy [of Brooklyn] acknowledged that the measure was unenforceable, but she argued that it would carry symbolic power against the pejorative uses of the word.
Why are there not local protests over this kind of crap? Do people think that sending a message by putting selectively-enforced laws on the books is actually a good idea?
Post by: LadySmith on August 08, 2007, 11:27:59 PM
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Why are there not local protests over this kind of crap? Do people think that sending a message by putting selectively-enforced laws on the books is actually a good idea?
There should be. I know I'm sick and tired of politicians wasting time on symbolic feel-good nonsense when there are plenty of real issues that should be dealt with.
Post by: doczinn on August 09, 2007, 06:32:03 AM
Post by: tyme on August 09, 2007, 06:39:10 AM
Post by: cosine on August 09, 2007, 07:17:06 PM
For the preservation of the language, I propose we keep the words we have, as we have those words for a reason, and to ban or prohibit them will only create a reason to use another word for the purpose.
Yes. Ban the b-word, and another word will be given the exact same meaning and will rise up to take its place. Different set of syllables, same intent. And therefore, did you really do anything? (not to imply that this is something the government should be meddling with in the first place.) Sounds like a losing proposition.
Post by: Len Budney on August 09, 2007, 09:36:57 PM
Yes. Ban the b-word, and another word will be given the exact same meaning and will rise up to take its place. Different set of syllables, same intent. And therefore, did you really do anything? Sounds like a losing proposition.
Taboo words have exactly that problem. For example, Polynesians worshiped volcanoes, so to say the word "volcano" was forbidden. But the word they used in its place gradually earned the taboo, and was in turn forbidden. And so on. Linguists haven't the faintest clue what the original Polynesian word for "volcano" was, because it's been replaced almost as frequently as every generation, and is way lost in the mists of time.The same thin happens with words referring to minorities. The allowable substitute gradually starts being used in a negative way, and has to be replaced. Thus we get: negro --> colored --> black --> of color --> African American.
--Len.
Post by: LadySmith on August 10, 2007, 01:24:46 AM
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The allowable substitute gradually starts being used in a negative way, and has to be replaced. Thus we get: negro --> colored --> black --> of color --> African American.
Thank you for not posting the really negative ones (we all know what they are).
Post by: Perd Hapley on August 10, 2007, 01:55:12 AM
negro --> colored --> black --> of color --> African American.
Gasp. Hate-speech!!
Post by: Vlad on August 10, 2007, 03:01:32 AM
Quote from: LadySmith
Thank you for not posting the really negative ones (we all know what they are).
I think that was actually the point. Those terms are considered negative by most people I know. I think he was pointing out that every term he used was the "PC" or "Preferable" term at one time. In the times they were used it was the nicest descriptor availabe. Then slowly they took on the same negative conotation the words they were replacing had, so they had to be replaced in just about the order he posted. Those terms aren't "vulgar" but, calling someone a negro in todays social climate might earn you a butt-whippin. At one time it was a sign of respect or endearment because you hadn't called them the N-word.
Words carry as much weight as you lend them. There is no panacea for "hurt feelings" nor was there ever a "right" to not be offended. Part of life as a pack animal is learning how to interact with the other members.
Politicians making laws like this, without being tarred and feathered for it, makes me weep for what the grand experiment has become. I shudder at the thoughts of what it WILL become if nobody stops things like this locally.
Post by: Len Budney on August 10, 2007, 03:09:18 AM
I think that was actually the point. Those terms are considered negative by most people I know. I think he was pointing out that every term he used was the "PC" or "Preferable" term at one time. In the times they were used it was the nicest descriptor availabe. Then slowly they took on the same negative conotation the words they were replacing had, so they had to be replaced in just about the order he posted. Those terms aren't "vulgar" but, calling someone a negro in todays social climate might earn you a butt-whippin. At one time it was a sign of respect or endearment because you hadn't called them the N-word.
Vlad, exactly. In their day, those were the words that good nonracists were supposed to use.
My grampa sounded horribly prejudiced to my ears, because he always said "colored" or even more charmingly, "those coloreds." But he was actually using the polite word from his own day; he was just too cussed old to let anyone tell him that the polite word was now rude, and he had to switch to a new one.
--Len.
Post by: The Rabbi on August 10, 2007, 03:49:48 AM
I am sorry the word Negro fell out of favor. It is the best word and has plenty of cognates in other languages. The said people are not black (any more than I am white). They are not "African American" since virtually none of them was born in Africa.
The whole race business stinks. I had a Jordanian in my shop buying a gun and on the 4473 they ask race. He said "what do I put?" He wasnt white strictly speaking. Jordan is in Asia so he was technically an Asian. BUt this isnt what they wanted.
Eliminate the whole sorry business.
Post by: wmenorr67 on August 10, 2007, 03:55:07 AM
If the doesn't work maybe just, what difference does it make?
Post by: The Rabbi on August 10, 2007, 04:57:21 AM
When he filled out the 4473 he checked Black. I asked him and he said "thats what I am." What am I supposed to do? Tell him he doesnt look Black? Ask for his Black identity card? See if he tap dances or likes watermelon?
It's just dumb.
Post by: Len Budney on August 10, 2007, 04:59:33 AM
It's absurd. I had another customer come in, a middle aged man in his 50s. He looked exactly like the Italians I remember from my childhood in NYC (most of those from southern Italy/Sicily). When he filled out the 4473 he checked Black.
Yep. A south-African college student got in trouble because he checked "African" on his admission paperwork. Apparently white-skinned Africans aren't African.--Len.
Post by: m1911owner on August 10, 2007, 09:58:39 AM
They are not "African American" since virtually none of them was born in Africa.
The whole race business stinks.
I was quite amused a few years ago at the high school administration The whole race business stinks.
that got their panties in a serious bunch when the student body voted for the "Outstanding African American Student" and selected the only actual immigrant from Africa, a South African girl who was white, blonde, and blue-eyed. 
Post by: m1911owner on August 10, 2007, 10:15:06 AM
Yep. A south-African college student got in trouble because he checked "African" on his admission paperwork. Apparently white-skinned Africans aren't African.
I would really love to see what a court would do with that case! I can't really see any way to adjudicate that, that wouldn't make a completely mockery of "What race are you?" blanks, and create ten times as many new questions as it answers.
Post by: The Rabbi on August 10, 2007, 10:57:26 AM
Dr. Meyerowitz was born in Bethlehem SA and Dr Schach in Capetown and both are now American citizens.
Post by: Perd Hapley on August 10, 2007, 12:42:07 PM
Thanks for saying all of that about "Negro," "colored," etc. I wish more people could figure that out. Like The Rabbi, I would also like to see "Negro" make a comeback. It's a good word that should offend no one.
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I was quite amused a few years ago at the high school administration police that got their panties in a serious bunch when the student body voted for the "Outstanding African American Student" and selected the only actual immigrant from Africa, a South African girl who was white, blonde, and blue-eyed.
How does a school get away with even voting for such a title? It practically screams that Blacks can't be "outstanding" among the larger student body. Doesn't it?
Post by: doczinn on August 10, 2007, 01:16:26 PM
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Eliminate the whole sorry business.
I know it's happened at least once before, but I'm still surprised there's something I agree with Rabbi on.Loan officers here in California are (or were?) required, if an applicant declines to state, to fill in what they think best describes the race of the person.
Post by: m1911owner on August 10, 2007, 01:24:11 PM
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I was quite amused a few years ago at the high school administration police that got their panties in a serious bunch when the student body voted for the "Outstanding African American Student" and selected the only actual immigrant from Africa, a South African girl who was white, blonde, and blue-eyed.
How does a school get away with even voting for such a title? It practically screams that Blacks can't be "outstanding" among the larger student body. Doesn't it?
Indeed. Plus, if they were to have an "Outstanding White Student", or "Outstanding Euro-American Student", you just know that:
1. There would be riots;
2. they'd burn down the school; and
3. there would be an injunction faster than you can say "Ruth Bader-Ginsburg."
Post by: The Rabbi on August 10, 2007, 01:26:52 PM
Quote
Eliminate the whole sorry business.
I know it's happened at least once before, but I'm still surprised there's something I agree with Rabbi on.Loan officers here in California are (or were?) required, if an applicant declines to state, to fill in what they think best describes the race of the person.
You'd be surprised how often we're likely to agree. Its just disagreeing is so much more fun.
When I did the loan biz I would often have applications by phone. I'd fill it out and shop it to a lender. They'd ask me the race and I told them I didnt know. They asked me to guess based on the person's voice! I can tell you I have mis-judged both ways a whole bunch of times.
Post by: Perd Hapley on August 10, 2007, 01:58:31 PM
Why are there not local protests over this kind of crap?
How about a massive Bitch Parade for owners of female dogs? They can all walk their dogs and carry signs declaring how proud their are to have bitches.
Post by: RadioFreeSeaLab on August 10, 2007, 02:07:41 PM
Post by: wmenorr67 on August 10, 2007, 03:52:32 PM
Post by: Vile Nylons on August 11, 2007, 05:54:01 AM
Post by: Stand_watie on August 11, 2007, 06:27:27 AM
When I first started with the company I work for, we had two gentlemen of Negroid race in our department and two OTHER gentlement who were "African-American" (African by birth, naturalized Americans). One born in Ethiopia (he was Arabic) and one South Africa (he was English-Dutch) in our department, which caused us all, from the blacks to the whites with the spectrum in-between a moderate amount of amusement at attempts at politically correct racial labeling.
And Cosine has a point when his is turned to the reverse as well
Quote
Taboo words have exactly that problem. For example, Polynesians worshiped volcanoes, so to say the word "volcano" was forbidden. But the word they used in its place gradually earned the taboo, and was in turn forbidden. And so on...
Words not emoted upon by the victim lose their cutting power as well.
For example the words "White trash", "PWT" "Hillbilly", "Redneck", "Hilljack", etc.
When my mother was too small to recollect (I heard this from her older brother), some of their neighbors used it to describe them because they were southernors who were poor, and talked with a southern accent. By the time I was old enough to remember, the term was something angry old men shouted when we cut the corner on the sidewalk and walked across the edge of their precious lawn, having exactly the relevance of the word "whippersnapper" to a youngster in the late 70's. Today it's a term of pride used to denote a type of youth "rebellion" , and is quite possibly only used perjoratively by one person in the U.S.
Post by: Len Budney on August 11, 2007, 10:37:00 AM
When my mother was too small to recollect (I heard this from her older brother), some of their neighbors used it to describe them because they were southernors who were poor, and talked with a southern accent...
In my corner of the north (central CT, to be exact), "white trash" referred generally to poor, lower-class whites, but most especially to lower-class whites living in poor black neighborhoods (or trailer parks, unless they were retirees).
When I went to Brown, I once made an impassioned argument that the "white" in "white trash" was an anti-black slur: the import of the phrase is that some whites are trash; that this is outside the norm; and by implication that all non-whites were automatically "trash." In other words, someone who says "white trash" would presumably consider it redundant to say, "black trash." I argued that "white-trash" should therefore be defined as "whites who are treated with contempt by identifying them with the black community." Since I myself lived in a poor black neighborhood and was called "white trash," I concluded that the term by definition made me an honorary black, and that I should be allowed to join the African American Student Alliance. I mostly meant it: I really believe that bigotry against blacks and "white trash" are intimately connected. My tongue was only slightly in my cheek.
Anyway, not only was the entire thesis brutally rejected, but folks actually twisted it around so as to call me racist for even suggesting it. Go figure.
--Len.
Post by: Perd Hapley on August 11, 2007, 02:57:43 PM
Quote
I once made an impassioned argument that the "white" in "white trash" was an anti-black slur: the import of the phrase is that some whites are trash; that this is outside the norm; and by implication that all non-whites were automatically "trash." In other words, someone who says "white trash" would presumably consider it redundant to say, "black trash."
I have pursued the same line of reasoning, although I stopped right about there. Agreed that "white trash" is a slur to non-whites, although it is not usually meant that way.
Post by: Len Budney on August 11, 2007, 03:52:02 PM
Quote
I once made an impassioned argument that the "white" in "white trash" was an anti-black slur: the import of the phrase is that some whites are trash; that this is outside the norm; and by implication that all non-whites were automatically "trash." In other words, someone who says "white trash" would presumably consider it redundant to say, "black trash."
I have pursued the same line of reasoning, although I stopped right about there. Agreed that "white trash" is a slur to non-whites, although it is not usually meant that way.
Well, this was at Brown. It would've been a coup to be allowed to join the African American students' society. It would almost be worth the savage beatings I'd suffer after opening my mouth on almost any subject imaginable at their meetings.
--Len.