Post by: Michigander on August 08, 2007, 01:52:19 AM
I do not believe that most of those who speak out against the war in Iraq are "trolls" or even necessarily "libs." I believe most of them are genuinely concerned citizens, probably gun owners too and mostly conservative, and many jump to the conclusion that because they are against the war in Iraq then they must be DU trolls, etc.
Anyone who may think that is, IMO, probably way off base.
I also believe that some of the Mods at THR are staunchly in support of the Prez and the war in Iraq and that anyone who speaks out against either may be marked for 'closer scrutiny.'
Others speak about "vibes" at THR.
Well, this is one of those "vibes" I get.
Post by: pacodelahoya on August 08, 2007, 02:11:22 AM
Post by: Perd Hapley on August 08, 2007, 02:18:39 AM
Just kidding.
Post by: S. Williamson on August 08, 2007, 02:23:16 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CX0Cs0aP7CQ
Post by: Leatherneck on August 08, 2007, 02:25:59 AM
TC
Post by: LadySmith on August 08, 2007, 02:49:03 AM
You're in a very large family, say mom, dad & 12 kids. Dad's off working, dealing with DDS attacks or whatever. 6 of the kids are followed home by unruly playmates. 5 of the kids leave because of this and then there's you, minding your own business outside trying to catch butterflies. Mom walks into what used to be her tidy livingroom only to find kids bickering, cussing, feuding and fighting and making messes everywhere. Her kids are hollering to explain, the playmates are telling her she can't do anything to them because it's a free country, and at that exact moment you walk in and tug on her shirt to show her this really pretty butterfly you think she'd like.
This appears to be housecleaning time at THR, and it's been sorely needed. Give it time.
Post by: Michigander on August 08, 2007, 03:08:26 AM
Post by: mtnbkr on August 08, 2007, 03:38:13 AM
Chris
Post by: Harold Tuttle on August 08, 2007, 04:03:33 AM
Quote
"The program of the Two Minutes Hate varied from day to day, but there was none in which DU was not the principal figure. DU was the primal traitor, the earliest defiler of the Forum's purity. All subsequent crimes against the Forum, all treacheries, acts of sabotage, heresies, deviations, sprang directly out of DU teaching".
Post by: Len Budney on August 08, 2007, 04:10:18 AM
I (and others) have also seen the two different standards for the pro and anti police state crowd. It's ok for someone to call people an asshat (whatever that is) but not ok to call that person a JBT...
I'm sorry, but "asshat" is just funny. I think it's pretty self-explanatory: if you're wearing your ass for a hat, where's your head? --Len.
Post by: Jamisjockey on August 08, 2007, 04:27:32 AM
Post by: K Frame on August 08, 2007, 04:41:15 AM
The worst thing is that the Mods have directed the trolls over here after closing L&P.
Don't worry. We won't have to resort to closing an entire forum as a way of dealing with troll problems.
Post by: grampster on August 08, 2007, 05:07:23 AM
Now, what seems to be ordinary badinage to some us, may not seem that way to Oleg, or one of his moderators or administrators; especially after being snarked on a few times by somebody sitting at a keyboard, under the cloak of anonymity who has a looser interpretation of what is normal badinage. THR and APS are an extension of Oleg. He is not anonymous. It's his vision and his reputation that is laid out there. He'd like us to exercise our opinions without using attitude or language that is not conducive to his vision.
So, instead of crabbing and grousing about what is happening and why, just accept that it is and try and pay more attention to what it is that Oleg wants.
Maybe we'd all be the better for it. If we can't seem to conform then there are other places to go and see and participate, although I'd be hard pressed to find any place better. In the nearly 7 years I've been playing in TFL, THR and APS, that conformity is very loose indeed; lots of slack within some wide parameters.
Sometimes I don't understand what all the hoo haw is about either regarding some sparring that is going on. But I guess I'd rather try and add to the light rather than add to the noise. Having said that, I also know that I am guilty of noise as well.
So, why don't we progress rather than regress. I know that I have been made better by nearly all of you that I have conversed with over the years.
Just my .02¢.
Post by: Hawk on August 08, 2007, 05:19:53 AM
Sticking to forum rules isn't usually too challenging for me but the one that prohibits accusations of trolling taxes my will power more than most (if I'm convinced I've spotted one).
I think I spotted a sock-puppet a couple weeks ago and managed to remain silent - but it hurt.
Post by: Ron on August 08, 2007, 05:30:23 AM
Probably should have used a better term.
It isn't liberal/progressive posters I was referring to it was the type of posts and conduct of the posters that I associate with the DU.
DU is a leftwing hate house. It is tuff trying to read through a thread there, so much vitriol.
Post by: MechAg94 on August 08, 2007, 05:37:20 AM
Post by: Michigander on August 08, 2007, 06:05:38 AM
I recall a number of times members of THR stating that they were posting on DU in order to . . . what? Disrupt? Cause trouble? I dunno. Some of them even encouraged others to go there and post.
The staff of THR, in strong terms, recommended against it and basically told them to quit encouraging others to do it.
So, assuming trolls from DU post at THR, apparently there have been trolls from THR posting at DU.
And I wonder if the trolls from DU posting at THR learned about THR from the trolls from THR.
Just thinking out loud.
Post by: mtnbkr on August 08, 2007, 06:09:11 AM
What's good for the goose and all that...
Chris
Post by: longeyes on August 08, 2007, 06:28:25 AM
Post by: K Frame on August 08, 2007, 06:49:31 AM
The "living room" and "unruly family" analogy at THR is sorely strained. Let me say this: when you turn your living room into a salon you must avoid treating your interlocutors as children. There has to be some latitude for rough-and-tumble. No one is getting physically bloodied at THR. At a certain point "civility" becomes suppression.
No, not there doesn't. When I have friends over I don't expect them to get into endless, meaningless shouting matches with me or anyone else. I also don't expect that my friends want me to act that way when I'm in their homes, either. Disagreement is fine, but limits are both reasonable and prudent.
I would not hesitate for a moment to toss someone out of my home if the situation warranted.
Post by: Werewolf on August 08, 2007, 07:37:11 AM
Thus, as the membership grows, more and more will the membership reflect the opinions of mainstream society; more and more will members of THR be expressing opinions that are in conflict with either Oleg's vision and/or the opinions of the THR members who are and have been for a long time, members of the pro-gun crowd.
Not all of those opinions will/can be expressed in a manner defined by the mods of THR as CIVIL. There is a reason for that.
Where disparate opinions coupled with disparate levels of writing ability, vocabulary etc. exist there will be conflict. Some are better at participating in that conflict in what might be described as a civil manner than others. Others not quite so erudite or who lack the wordsmithing ability of those they disagree with are more blunt which often comes across as uncivil but which is really just a reflection of a less skilled ability with the written word. (of course there are those that are just plain obnoxious - they're out there - but not in the numbers that a lot would like to believe.)
On the other hand some of those wordsmith types can be down right insulting in their content but oh so civil in their presentation. End result the wordsmiths can be as insulting as they like, getting a pass by mods too dense to see what's happening or have a bias towards the wordsmith, while the less skilled get booted for incivility; not because their ideas are not worthy of consideration but because they lack the skill to present them in the prescribed manner.
Conflict is a function of numbers of participants. The more participants the more conflict. It is inevitable.
So - it seems to me that Oleg has to make a choice. Grow THR and accept that not everyone can or even has the wordsmithing skill to present their ideas in a competitive environment civily (as defined by the mods) or restrict the membership and thus restrict his ability to achieve his stated goal of converting fence sitters to pro-gunners.
Post by: K Frame on August 08, 2007, 07:47:56 AM
In all three cases, though, it's the rights of the owner of the forum, and the duty of the moderators, to weigh all conversations/conflicts against the agreed upon rules of conduct and act accordingly.
If no one can, or will, enforce those protocols, a forum will break down into chaos.
There are forums on the internet that allow, or even encourage, that type of psychotic "conversation." To my understanding, THR was never intended to be that kind of place. APS has somewhat looser limitations, but those who post here are still held to certain rules of conduct. Yes, we have all, at one point or another, broken those rules of conduct, but it is not an on-going activity.
As far as I can remember, those few people who have been banned here looked at conflict as an on-going activity, specifically Masterpiece Arms, Blackburn, and Lifer come to mind.
We all have our moments that are less civil than others. The differentiation, though, is the nature of an individual's posts over time. Yes, someone can be dropped for one huge atomic bomb type comment, but most times it's an on-going pattern of conduct.
Post by: longeyes on August 08, 2007, 07:52:49 AM
Post by: K Frame on August 08, 2007, 07:57:10 AM
Take a hard look at those times, though.
I would suspect that many of those threads so locked have one thing in common -- people repetitively saying the same things. You know, a circular argument where the same points are brought up again and again by both sides.
At that point an argument, even if civilly conducted, becomes pointless and subject to locking.
Post by: wooderson on August 08, 2007, 08:10:09 AM
I simply don't see how that kind of conduct represents any kind of harm to a public forum - the bandwidth and storage issues are negligible. The closure boils down to a moderator or admin or whomever locking it because of their displeasure, rather than any desire to 'protect the forum' or anything of the sort. (Which is, of course, their right - but we should be clear about the reasons.)
Post by: K Frame on August 08, 2007, 08:20:47 AM
Because that kind of crap is a magnet for others who like to use the same sort of "debating" tactics. It also tends to attract the even rowdier individuals. If it's not controlled, it becomes an avalanch.
At the point where the noise begins to drown out the signal, to use a phrase, a forum tends to start shedding reasonable individuals (far too often people who have been posting for a long time) who are more interested in dialog than screeching.
When that happens, it becomes an ugly fight at the monkey house and it's very difficult to regain control of it.
I've seen it happen to far too many good boards on the internet, and as I consider this to be overall one of the good boards, I will do everything in my power to prevent that from happening.
I will, if the situation requires it, cut a swath that would make W. T. Sherman proud.
And as I said in another message, I have no doubt that few, if any, of the regular long-term posters here would be in the least affected by that. To a large degree those people know how to conduct themselves.
Post by: Leatherneck on August 08, 2007, 10:02:23 AM
For years now, I've enjoyed the knowledgable and polite discussion on these forums. I'd hate to see them deteriorate into the kind of crap one sees elsewhere. Be polite. Take the High Road. Simple.
TC
Post by: K Frame on August 08, 2007, 10:14:32 AM
Yeah yeah, I'm Atilla the Mod...
I'm going to get you and your little cabin in the woods, too, my pretty!
Post by: Ex-MA Hole on August 08, 2007, 10:18:44 AM
Post by: longeyes on August 08, 2007, 10:26:01 AM
Quote
Look, guys: it ain't rocket science. Look at the names Oleg chose. The High Road; Armed Polite Society. In what I've read of his posts, he's a soft-spoken, articulate and polite person. So are the mods for the most part. It's part of the public image of gun enthusiasts he's trying to cultivate on the World-Wide Web.
For years now, I've enjoyed the knowledgable and polite discussion on these forums. I'd hate to see them deteriorate into the kind of crap one sees elsewhere. Be polite. Take the High Road. Simple.
For years now, I've enjoyed the knowledgable and polite discussion on these forums. I'd hate to see them deteriorate into the kind of crap one sees elsewhere. Be polite. Take the High Road. Simple.
But you see, my friend, it's NOT simple. This is not about impugning Oleg's character, but when you ban someone you are impugning THEIR character and tarring their image. I kept it civil for seven years. If I perseverate, irritatingly, about this, it's not because I have no life outside THR, it's out of principle. It galls me, frankly, to see a lot of people backing whatever was done without really knowing the specifics. That isn't high anything, it's sycophancy.
Post by: ArfinGreebly on August 08, 2007, 10:33:16 AM
When I suggested that the generalities and rudeness were probably not the best approach, I was ignored.
When I flatly told him he was breaking the rules and to check the Terms & Conditions, he advised me that I had mistaken him "for someone who cares what you think."
And further, that he had lived there and, "I earned the right to call it whatever I please."
No one was arguing with his stance against socialism/communism, erosion of 2A rights, just his presentation.
I dunno if he ever got smacked for that, but it's that kind of conduct that has the mods overworked.
It's not civil, even if it's not technically "trolling."
That same guy, in my house, telling me (or any of my guests) "you've mistaken me for someone who cares what you think," would be shown the door. If he wants to run his household that way, fine. I don't have to visit. In my house, however, he'll either behave or leave.
Oleg has several thousand guests "in his house."
It's not unreasonable that he gets some say in the standards for civility therein.
Post by: longeyes on August 08, 2007, 10:45:57 AM
But then, frankly, I'm bored with the whole thing. Too much moral smog in the living room, you know.
Post by: K Frame on August 08, 2007, 10:51:20 AM
We're not going to solve anything as it pertains to THR. Same owner, but different management, but I think everyone has explained, both well and civily, their point of view.