Post by: RadioFreeSeaLab on September 24, 2007, 10:37:10 AM
Good on the chief for apologizing, and upholding the law.
Quote
Gun owner receives apology from police chief
Chief's letter, more training follow officer's confusion, threat of arrest
By Matt Lakin
Saturday, September 22, 2007
Trevor Putnam, who was stopped while he legally carried his gun inside a Wal-Mart by an officer who was mistaken about the states gun permit laws, received an apology from Police Chief Sterling P. Owen IV.
Trevor Putnam, who was stopped while he legally carried his gun inside a Wal-Mart by an officer who was mistaken about the states gun permit laws, received an apology from Police Chief Sterling P. Owen IV.
Trevor Putnam knew the gun laws. The officer who stopped him didnt.
When I told him that I hadnt done anything, he said hed find a reason to put me in jail, said Putnam, 24, who works with guns every day as vice president of Coal Creek Armory in West Knoxville.
Its not that I have a problem with police officers. I deal with police officers nationwide from Arizona to Maine every day. But I lost my confidence in a legal right that I knew I had.
Knoxville police officers will get a refresher course on the states gun permit laws after an officer who didnt know the law stopped, frisked and threatened to arrest Putnam for legally carrying a gun inside a Wal-Mart this summer.
Officer Glenn Todd Greenes actions June 21 at the store on Walbrook Drive in West Knoxville earned him a written reprimand and remedial training for rudeness and not knowing the law, Internal Affairs records show. Hes worked for the Knoxville Police Department for about seven years.
Putnam got a written apology from Police Chief Sterling P. Owen IV.
The officer was wrong I want to personally apologize to you for any embarrassment or inconvenience you may have suffered as a result of this incident, the chief wrote.
The Knoxville Police Department takes pride in the training offered to its officers, and the training provided far exceeds state requirements. Unfortunately, officers arent perfect, and sometimes mistakes are made. As you can see from the remedial measures taken, we want to learn from our mistakes so they wont be repeated in the future.
The trouble started when Putnam and his girlfriend, Samantha Williams, stopped at the store to buy groceries around 10 p.m. Putnam, who holds a gun permit, carried his Colt handgun inside with him, holstered on his right hip.
Its like a seat belt or a fire extinguisher, he said. It goes everywhere with me. It was warm that night, so I left my jacket in the car.
State law allows gun permit holders to carry their guns openly or concealed. Putnam said he usually tucks his shirt over the gun but forgot to that night.
As they walked out, Greene, whod gone to the store to investigate a shoplifting call, told Putnam to stop. Greene asked for Putnams identification, grabbed his arm when he reached for his wallet and then asked why he carried a gun in public, records show.
Putnam ended up against a concrete wall being frisked as Greene took his gun.
Its called a concealed carry permit. State law says you carry it concealed, not in plain view (with the) hammer back, Greene said. Ive been doing this for 12 years. I can put you in jail for something. Its called inducing a panic.
Greene ultimately let Putnam go after talking with another officer but told him to pull his shirt over the gun. He told Internal Affairs investigators he thought Tennessee and Ohio, where he previously served as a police officer, prohibited open carrying. Neither state does.
Theres an issue there where there could be panic, he said in a recorded statement. Im thinking the law is a concealed law. Im not going to deal with a guy that has a loaded gun until I secure a weapon.
Greene said he asked other officers about the law and that they didnt know, either.
Investigators reviewed video from Greenes in-car camera and found him in violation of KPD policy. They sustained part of Putnams complaint but ruled Greene hadnt used excessive force in putting him against the wall.
Putnam questions that decision.
On the one hand, Im glad they didnt ignore it, he said. On the other, I dont feel it was a wholly appropriate response to everything the officer threatened to do.
The department trains all recruits on the states gun permit laws, said KPD Lt. Jeff Stiles, who oversees training for the department. All officers will get another dose of training during the next annual session, he said.
We dont get that many questions about it over here, Stiles said. But we cover that aspect. We go straight to the experts to teach the law. We dont guess, and we dont speculate.
Chief's letter, more training follow officer's confusion, threat of arrest
By Matt Lakin
Saturday, September 22, 2007
Trevor Putnam, who was stopped while he legally carried his gun inside a Wal-Mart by an officer who was mistaken about the states gun permit laws, received an apology from Police Chief Sterling P. Owen IV.
Trevor Putnam, who was stopped while he legally carried his gun inside a Wal-Mart by an officer who was mistaken about the states gun permit laws, received an apology from Police Chief Sterling P. Owen IV.
Trevor Putnam knew the gun laws. The officer who stopped him didnt.
When I told him that I hadnt done anything, he said hed find a reason to put me in jail, said Putnam, 24, who works with guns every day as vice president of Coal Creek Armory in West Knoxville.
Its not that I have a problem with police officers. I deal with police officers nationwide from Arizona to Maine every day. But I lost my confidence in a legal right that I knew I had.
Knoxville police officers will get a refresher course on the states gun permit laws after an officer who didnt know the law stopped, frisked and threatened to arrest Putnam for legally carrying a gun inside a Wal-Mart this summer.
Officer Glenn Todd Greenes actions June 21 at the store on Walbrook Drive in West Knoxville earned him a written reprimand and remedial training for rudeness and not knowing the law, Internal Affairs records show. Hes worked for the Knoxville Police Department for about seven years.
Putnam got a written apology from Police Chief Sterling P. Owen IV.
The officer was wrong I want to personally apologize to you for any embarrassment or inconvenience you may have suffered as a result of this incident, the chief wrote.
The Knoxville Police Department takes pride in the training offered to its officers, and the training provided far exceeds state requirements. Unfortunately, officers arent perfect, and sometimes mistakes are made. As you can see from the remedial measures taken, we want to learn from our mistakes so they wont be repeated in the future.
The trouble started when Putnam and his girlfriend, Samantha Williams, stopped at the store to buy groceries around 10 p.m. Putnam, who holds a gun permit, carried his Colt handgun inside with him, holstered on his right hip.
Its like a seat belt or a fire extinguisher, he said. It goes everywhere with me. It was warm that night, so I left my jacket in the car.
State law allows gun permit holders to carry their guns openly or concealed. Putnam said he usually tucks his shirt over the gun but forgot to that night.
As they walked out, Greene, whod gone to the store to investigate a shoplifting call, told Putnam to stop. Greene asked for Putnams identification, grabbed his arm when he reached for his wallet and then asked why he carried a gun in public, records show.
Putnam ended up against a concrete wall being frisked as Greene took his gun.
Its called a concealed carry permit. State law says you carry it concealed, not in plain view (with the) hammer back, Greene said. Ive been doing this for 12 years. I can put you in jail for something. Its called inducing a panic.
Greene ultimately let Putnam go after talking with another officer but told him to pull his shirt over the gun. He told Internal Affairs investigators he thought Tennessee and Ohio, where he previously served as a police officer, prohibited open carrying. Neither state does.
Theres an issue there where there could be panic, he said in a recorded statement. Im thinking the law is a concealed law. Im not going to deal with a guy that has a loaded gun until I secure a weapon.
Greene said he asked other officers about the law and that they didnt know, either.
Investigators reviewed video from Greenes in-car camera and found him in violation of KPD policy. They sustained part of Putnams complaint but ruled Greene hadnt used excessive force in putting him against the wall.
Putnam questions that decision.
On the one hand, Im glad they didnt ignore it, he said. On the other, I dont feel it was a wholly appropriate response to everything the officer threatened to do.
The department trains all recruits on the states gun permit laws, said KPD Lt. Jeff Stiles, who oversees training for the department. All officers will get another dose of training during the next annual session, he said.
We dont get that many questions about it over here, Stiles said. But we cover that aspect. We go straight to the experts to teach the law. We dont guess, and we dont speculate.
Post by: Fly320s on September 24, 2007, 10:40:25 AM
Trevor was/is Gecko45.
I think he uses 'GreenFurniture' now over at THR and TFL.
Post by: Balog on September 24, 2007, 10:43:39 AM
Quote from: Officer Friendly
Its called a concealed carry permit. State law says you carry it concealed, not in plain view (with the) hammer back, Greene said. Ive been doing this for 12 years. I can put you in jail for something. Its called inducing a panic.
To me, that sounds like threatening to falsify charges. To me, that sounds like a crime. Don't just apologize, don't just give the guy new training; nothing says "we don't tolerate cops who abuse their power" like criminal charges.
Still, this is better than what usually happens. I'm guessing it's because this was a well off guy from the gun industry who could've made a large stink about it.
Post by: K Frame on September 24, 2007, 10:51:05 AM
A lot of jurisdictions have such laws on the books.
It would be kind of hard to prove, though, lacking any panicked 911 calls about someone carrying a gun in the WalMart.
Post by: Balog on September 24, 2007, 10:52:35 AM
Post by: Jamisjockey on September 24, 2007, 11:21:31 AM
"To me, that sounds like threatening to falsify charges. To me, that sounds like a crime."
A lot of jurisdictions have such laws on the books.
It would be kind of hard to prove, though, lacking any panicked 911 calls about someone carrying a gun in the WalMart.
A lot of jurisdictions have such laws on the books.
It would be kind of hard to prove, though, lacking any panicked 911 calls about someone carrying a gun in the WalMart.
Yeah, but once you're arrested for something along those lines.....its on you to disprove it. Another brilliant idea...laws that give officials leeway to use thier own "judgement".
Post by: The Viking on September 24, 2007, 12:04:22 PM
HA!!
Trevor was/is Gecko45.
I think he uses 'GreenFurniture' now over at THR and TFL.
Was he the original Mall Ninja?
Trevor was/is Gecko45.
I think he uses 'GreenFurniture' now over at THR and TFL.
Post by: K Frame on September 24, 2007, 12:09:01 PM
Say what?
When did the entire premise of our legal system change, from "it's up to the state to prove your guilt" to "it's up to you to prove your innocence"?
Post by: Fly320s on September 24, 2007, 12:20:28 PM
Quote
Was he the original Mall Ninja?
Yep. Mr. Ceramic-Plates-on-My-Back himself.
Post by: Mabs2 on September 24, 2007, 12:26:52 PM
My hero!
Post by: Perd Hapley on September 24, 2007, 12:36:45 PM
Post by: Strings on September 24, 2007, 12:37:15 PM
I think he uses 'GreenFurniture' now over at THR and TFL.<
Somehow, I doubt this. I know he IS "ColtCCO", from http://coltcco.com/
You know... one of the guys Tamara used to work with/for?
Post by: K Frame on September 24, 2007, 12:57:44 PM
Post by: Fly320s on September 24, 2007, 03:29:09 PM
Somehow, I doubt this. I know he IS "ColtCCO", from http://coltcco.com/
You know... one of the guys Tamara used to work with/for?
You know... one of the guys Tamara used to work with/for?
Well, there is no 'coltcco' registered at THR or TFL. I know that 'greenfurniture' is affiliated with Coal Creek Armory, as he has posted such information. Greenfurniture could be the owner, I don't know.
I've met Trevor and Tamara when I was living in Knoxville; I spent some time at CCO. Trevor is definitly 'Gecko45.' I was in CCO one day when one of his coworkers made a joke about him. Trevor admitted he is Gecko45. And if I can find the original photo on the 'net, I'll link it here.
Post by: Fly320s on September 24, 2007, 04:25:45 PM
There is this thread on THR about the incident: www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=304706, but Trevor has not responded to it.
You're right, Strings, Trevor is 'ColtCCO,' but that name isn't used on THR or TFL.
Post by: Hawkmoon on September 24, 2007, 06:24:52 PM
Quote from: Mike Irwin
When did the entire premise of our legal system change, from "it's up to the state to prove your guilt" to "it's up to you to prove your innocence"?
It's a little difficult to pinpoint, but in general I'd guess about 20 or maybe 25 years ago. Certainly no less than 15.
Post by: Antibubba on September 24, 2007, 08:04:56 PM
Post by: vernal45 on September 24, 2007, 11:48:12 PM
Post by: DJJ on September 25, 2007, 03:30:34 AM
Post by: ilbob on September 25, 2007, 03:51:36 AM
Yeah, but once you're arrested for something along those lines.....its on you to disprove it. Another brilliant idea...laws that give officials leeway to use thier own "judgement".
there is a fix for these kind of problems, but you have to approach it through the political system.
Post by: vernal45 on September 25, 2007, 05:33:57 AM
Quote
you've got a perp being investigated by his own group. What do you think is going to happen?
This is why I dislike all cops, good and bad. Funny, I dislike the good ones more, because they wont weed out the bad. In the past, I would have stopped and provided help to an officer (have done so on more that a few occasions), now, I dont care. Get you A$$ whopped, hurt or worse. I dont care.
Post by: Mabs2 on September 25, 2007, 07:44:39 AM
No, he should have put on his wall climbing slippers and escaped.
Wtf was he doing with them off?
Post by: Balog on September 25, 2007, 08:21:43 AM
No, he should have put on his wall climbing slippers and escaped.
Wtf was he doing with them off?Even ninjas have off days.
Post by: drewtam on September 25, 2007, 03:17:16 PM
"Yeah, but once you're arrested for something along those lines.....its on you to disprove it."
Say what?
When did the entire premise of our legal system change, from "it's up to the state to prove your guilt" to "it's up to you to prove your innocence"?
Say what?
When did the entire premise of our legal system change, from "it's up to the state to prove your guilt" to "it's up to you to prove your innocence"?
Have you dealt with our executive branch lately?
Drew
Post by: Mabs2 on September 26, 2007, 06:15:14 PM
No, he should have put on his wall climbing slippers and escaped.
Wtf was he doing with them off?Even ninjas have off days.
I never knew ninjas were bound by days.
Post by: El Tejon on September 27, 2007, 04:50:12 AM
Post by: Stand_watie on September 27, 2007, 05:26:05 AM
Quote
...not in plain view (with the) hammer back, Greene said...
Don't know what was being carried, but it sounds like Greene might need some firearms training along with his legal re-training.