Post by: Manedwolf on December 05, 2007, 11:20:59 AM
I don't ever go to a mall without carrying, anymore. Only thing I'd be huddling behind is hard cover, trying to line up a shot to stop the attacker.
Quote
Report: At Least Five People Shot at Omaha Mall
OMAHA, Neb. (AP) Report: At least five people shot inside Omaha mall.
As many as five people may have been shot, and at least one killed at a busy Omaha shopping mall Wednesday afternoon around 2 p.m.
Police put the Westroads Mall on lockdown while it searched for the shooter, but it remained unclear if the gunman was still inside.
Omaha television station KETV reported that an elderly man was shot inside the Von Maur department store at the Westroads Mall, the largest mall in Nebraska.
Another local television station reported that an employee at the Von Maur store sustained a "self-inflicted" gunshot wound.
A woman who answered the phone at an Old Navy store said 20 to 30 customers were huddled with employees in a back storeroom.
"All we know was people were running and screaming down the hallway by Von Maur saying there was a shooting, and then they locked us down," said the woman, who said her name was Heidi.
The lockdown has reportedly been lifted to allow some people to leave the mall, but no one is being allowed to enter.
President Bush was in town Wednesday for a fundraiser in Omaha, but left about an hour before the shooting.
OMAHA, Neb. (AP) Report: At least five people shot inside Omaha mall.
As many as five people may have been shot, and at least one killed at a busy Omaha shopping mall Wednesday afternoon around 2 p.m.
Police put the Westroads Mall on lockdown while it searched for the shooter, but it remained unclear if the gunman was still inside.
Omaha television station KETV reported that an elderly man was shot inside the Von Maur department store at the Westroads Mall, the largest mall in Nebraska.
Another local television station reported that an employee at the Von Maur store sustained a "self-inflicted" gunshot wound.
A woman who answered the phone at an Old Navy store said 20 to 30 customers were huddled with employees in a back storeroom.
"All we know was people were running and screaming down the hallway by Von Maur saying there was a shooting, and then they locked us down," said the woman, who said her name was Heidi.
The lockdown has reportedly been lifted to allow some people to leave the mall, but no one is being allowed to enter.
President Bush was in town Wednesday for a fundraiser in Omaha, but left about an hour before the shooting.
Post by: Firethorn on December 05, 2007, 11:33:42 AM
Omaha also had a ordinance that would have banned CCW(grandfathered in from before CCW was passed), but I heard they repealed that.
Also, it would be considered polite to attribute your quoting of the article. A link to the site you got it from would be good.
Post by: Manedwolf on December 05, 2007, 11:40:18 AM
Post by: El Tejon on December 05, 2007, 11:55:46 AM
More people SHOULD be ready, but it "never happens around here."
Post by: Manedwolf on December 05, 2007, 11:59:37 AM
Quote
(CNN) Witnesses described hiding in clothes racks and dressing rooms, and hearing as many as 65 shots.
Which means he had to reload, and could. Because he was unopposed.
Quote
One witness, Todd Trimpe, told FOX News that he saw police apprehend a man, dressed in camouflage, who was hiding under a bus-stop bench outside the mall. Trimpe said he did not know what was happening inside the mall when he witnessed the arrest.
Camouflage?
Post by: Bogie on December 05, 2007, 12:05:51 PM
Post by: Manedwolf on December 05, 2007, 12:20:11 PM
Post by: Manedwolf on December 05, 2007, 12:25:27 PM
There was a blurry picture on CNN's site of what looked like a black guy in BDUs who was handcuffed.... But they're still making noise like the guy's still loose. Could be they're handcuffing bystanders until they sort it out?
According to other reports, the perp shot himself. If it turns out they cuffed a black member of the armed forces for wearing BDUs, that's going to get interesting.
Post by: tyme on December 05, 2007, 12:28:16 PM
Quote from: CNN Front page
Nine people were killed and five wounded Wednesday in a shooting at an Omaha, Nebraska, shopping mall, police said. The person thought to be the gunman was among the dead, of a self-inflicted gunshot wound.
Maybe the guy they apprehended dropped his cell phone while in camo? Isn't that suspicious these days?
Post by: Paddy on December 05, 2007, 02:06:08 PM
Post by: Matthew Carberry on December 05, 2007, 02:17:11 PM
Probably a semi and a lot of folks died so probably a real caliber.
AWB fodder almost certainly.
Those poor people, hell of a Christmas present.
Post by: Manedwolf on December 05, 2007, 02:54:42 PM
19 year old with a rifle.
Probably a semi and a lot of folks died so probably a real caliber.
AWB fodder almost certainly.
Those poor people, hell of a Christmas present.
Probably a semi and a lot of folks died so probably a real caliber.
AWB fodder almost certainly.
Those poor people, hell of a Christmas present.
I'll guess hi-point or WASR.
I'll guess hi-point or
Post by: Matthew Carberry on December 05, 2007, 02:57:19 PM
19 year old with a rifle.
Probably a semi and a lot of folks died so probably a real caliber.
AWB fodder almost certainly.
Those poor people, hell of a Christmas present.
Probably a semi and a lot of folks died so probably a real caliber.
AWB fodder almost certainly.
Those poor people, hell of a Christmas present.
I'll guess hi-point or WASR.
I'll guess hi-point or _________
or what? WHAT DAMN YOU!
Post by: Manedwolf on December 05, 2007, 02:59:56 PM
Sorry, in a cafe using an iPod Touch.
BTW, ABC News is already erroneously saying it was an automatic rifle...
Post by: Bogie on December 05, 2007, 03:11:51 PM
The _real_ victims/witnesses were saying that the thing was making a "pop, pop, pop" noise... I'm thinking some sort of 9mm?
Post by: Matthew Carberry on December 05, 2007, 03:21:48 PM
I was guessing 10/22 with aftermarket mags at first but the kill ratio seemed high.
Post by: Bogie on December 05, 2007, 03:54:05 PM
Post by: Manedwolf on December 05, 2007, 05:52:49 PM
SKS. Son of a bitch.
Well. There goes AWB II...
Oh, yeah, and a convenient landlady was found who described the killer as a "lost puppy", and they're already launching into the retrospective of his troubled life. Which is precisely what this piece of ___ wanted.
When they used to just throw a killer's body in a ditch, this didn't have so much appeal. Every loser knows that if they go out killing a bunch of people, they'll get their fame.
That makes me sick.
Post by: Matthew Carberry on December 05, 2007, 05:59:48 PM
Post by: Manedwolf on December 05, 2007, 06:24:11 PM
Post by: member1313 on December 06, 2007, 12:42:05 AM
Say you're in a mall, and you hear gunshots. You're carrying concealed, and you eventually end up engaging the shooter. What if the SWAT team enters the mall, and sees you with a gun? Aren't you going to get shot, too?
I guess I just worry for the safety of anyone carrying legally who intervenes in a crime like this.
Post by: Matthew Carberry on December 06, 2007, 01:22:30 AM
Remember, in almost every one of these situations the shooter commits suicide when confronted/resisted, or, as in this case, before the police are anywhere nearby.
There really isn't a good example to go by but, personally, if I'm engaging the shooter and become aware that the police are on site, I'm probably going to break contact and go to cover and make the gun inconspicuous.
In most other cases, I would just have to hope the police could tell the difference between the guy with the handgun behind cover (me) yelling "Drop your weapon ! Police! (as in "call the...")" as I fire and the guy with the rifle shooting at all the running people.
Post by: 280plus on December 06, 2007, 01:49:15 AM
Post by: 280plus on December 06, 2007, 02:57:56 AM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071206/ap_on_re_us/mall_shooting
By OSKAR GARCIA, Associated Press Writer
11 minutes ago
OMAHA, Neb. - The teenager carried his rifle into the mall, passing shoppers and decorations.
A department store employee was pressing a suit for a customer. A woman was making a quick stop to buy Christmas presents before picking up her son from school. Christmas music played.
The gunman stopped on the third floor and cut through the sounds with gunfire. Shoppers and employees at the Westroads Mall scrambled for cover in dressing rooms, clothing racks, offices and storage areas.
Eight people were killed and five wounded before the shooter ended the horror by taking his own life. He left behind a note that read, in part, "Now I'll be famous."
Robert A. Hawkins, 19, had recently split with his girlfriend and been fired from McDonald's. He had a criminal record and had left or been kicked out of his parents' house.
Police Chief Thomas Warren said the shooting appeared to be random and that the dead included five females and four males, including the gunman. Warren would not release the victims' identities Wednesday night and gave no motive for the attack, but promised more details in a news conference scheduled for Thursday morning.
Hawkins moved from his family's home about a year ago. He moved in with a friend's family, and Debora Maruca-Kovac and her husband welcomed him into their home and tried to help him.
"When he first came in the house, he was introverted, a troubled young man who was like a lost pound puppy that nobody wanted," Maruca-Kovac told The Associated Press.
She told the Omaha World-Herald that the night before the shooting, Hawkins and her sons showed her an SKS semiautomatic Russian military rifle the same type used in the shooting. She said she thought the gun belonged to a member of Hawkins' family. She said she didn't think much of it the gun looked too old to work.
Records in Sarpy and Washington counties showed Hawkins had a felony drug conviction and several misdemeanor cases filed against him, including an arrest 11 days before the shooting for having alcohol as a minor. He was due in court in two weeks.
Maruca-Kovac said Hawkins had recently broken up with a girlfriend and was fired from McDonald's. She told the World-Herald that Hawkins said he had been fired after being accused of stealing $17 from his till at the restaurant. McDonald's management declined to comment to the newspaper.
Maruca-Kovac said he phoned her at about 1 p.m. Wednesday, telling her he had left a note. She tried to get him to explain.
"He said, 'It's too late,'" and hung up, she told CNN. She then called Hawkins' mother.
In the note, which was turned over to authorities, Hawkins wrote that he was "sorry for everything" and would not be a burden on his family anymore. More ominously, he wrote, "Now I'll be famous."
Maruca-Kovac went to her job as a nurse at the Nebraska Medical Center, where victims of the shooting soon began to arrive.
The first 911 call came in at 1:42 p.m., and the shooting was already over when police arrived six minutes later, authorities said.
"We sent every available officer in the city of Omaha," Sgt. Teresa Negron said. "They came to the mall in lights and sirens."
The World-Herald reported that the gunman had a military-style haircut and a black backpack, and wore a camouflage vest.
Hawkins opened fire in a Von Maur store, part of a Midwestern chain.
Mickey Vickory, who worked in the store's third-floor service department, said she heard shots and went with coworkers and customers into a back closet, emerging about a half-hour later when police shouted to come out with their hands up. As police led them to another part of the mall for safety, they saw the victims.
"We saw the bodies and we saw the blood," she said.
Keith Fidler, another Von Maur employee, said he heard a burst of five to six shots followed by 15 to 20 more rounds. Fidler said he huddled in the corner of the men's clothing department with about a dozen other employees until police yelled to get out of the store.
Witness Shawn Vidlak said the shots sounded like a nail gun. At first he thought it was noise from construction work at the mall.
"People started screaming about gunshots," Vidlak said. "I grabbed my wife and kids. We got out of there as fast as we could."
Nebraska Medical Center spokeswoman Andrea McMaster said the hospital had three victims from the mall shooting, including Fred Wilson, 61, who was in critical condition early Thursday with a bullet wound to his chest.
Another critically wounded victim was at Creighton University Medical Center, spokeswoman Lisa Stites said.
On Wednesday night, police used a bomb robot to access a Jeep Cherokee left in the mall parking lot that authorities believe belonged to Hawkins. Officers had seen some wires under some clothing, but no bomb was found.
President Bush was in Omaha on Wednesday for a fundraiser, but left about an hour before the shooting.
"Having just visited with so many members of the community in Omaha today, the president is confident that they will pull together to comfort one another," White House press secretary Dana Perino said.
The sprawling, three-level mall has more than 135 stores and restaurants. It gets 14.5 million visitors every year, according to its Web site.
It was the second mass shooting at a mall this year. In February, nine people were shot, five of them fatally, at Trolley Square mall in Salt Lake City. The gunman, 18-year-old Sulejman Talovic, was shot and killed by police.
The shooting spree was Nebraska's deadliest since January 1958, when Charles Starkweather killed 10 people in Nebraska and another in Wyoming.
___
Associated Press writers Josh Funk, Timberly Ross and Eric Olson in Omaha and Lara Jakes Jordan in Washington contributed to this report.
Post by: StopTheGrays on December 06, 2007, 05:58:24 AM
Post by: El Tejon on December 06, 2007, 06:09:02 AM
If shooter is down and his head is separated from his body by 3 feet or more, after looking about, I'm going to put my pistol away and sit down so I can still see the headless shooter (body guys shot often "wake up").
If I hear or know the cops are coming, I'm screaming at the top of my lungs "police officer, don't shoot me!" and if I have time I put the pistol on the floor and back away or have my foot on the pistol.
Post by: Thor on December 06, 2007, 06:54:55 AM
Post by: Manedwolf on December 06, 2007, 07:28:38 AM
Quote
Warren said Hawkins' body and the AK-47 with SKS 7.66 mm ammunition were found on the store's third floor.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/06/mall.shooting/index.html
Post by: ilbob on December 06, 2007, 07:57:10 AM
CNN wins the award for today's "Idiocracy" news line:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/06/mall.shooting/index.html
Quote
Warren said Hawkins' body and the AK-47 with SKS 7.66 mm ammunition were found on the store's third floor.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/06/mall.shooting/index.html
about on par with most of their other reporting. you have to remember that reporters are not required to have any special knowledge of what they report, but they think they have it none the less. usually they don't have a clue about anything they are reporting and just parrot the press releases they get.
the police chief was the one who called it an ak47 then an SKS and made up a non-existent ammo for whatever it is. cnn no doubt just copied his press release.
i don't even blame the police chief. he probably wouldn't know the difference either and relied on information from someone else.
i remember a local cop one time who was quoted by the local rag as referring to a firearm as a "semi-automatic assault gun pistol" (or something like that - was a while ago i read it). the picture of the gun he was talking about looked like a DA revolver to me.
Post by: Manedwolf on December 06, 2007, 09:39:56 AM
Also, here go the gleeful blood-soaked dances already. This one is from the VPC:
Quote
SKS Assault RiflesA Menace to Public Safety
WASHINGTON, DC - December 6 - Following yesterday's shooting at the Westroads Mall in Omaha, Nebraska, the Violence Policy Center (www.vpc.org) today released a backgrounder on SKS assault rifles:
SKS Assault RiflesA Menace to Public Safety: http://www.vpc.org/fact_sht/SKSfactsheet.pdf
The backgrounder notes that SKS assault rifles are the rifle model most frequently encountered by law enforcement officers, according to a 2002 report by the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). The ATF report also notes that these high capacity rifles pose an enhanced threat to law enforcement, in part because of their ability to expel projectiles at velocities that are capable of penetrating the type of soft body armor typically worn by the law enforcement officers. Despite the hazard this assault weapon poses to law enforcement and the general public, the rifle was not covered by the federal assault weapons ban that expired in 2004.
The backgrounder also notes that Russian SKS assault rifles may not be imported pursuant to voluntary trade agreements initiated during the Clinton Administration. The Bush Administration, however, has specifically authorized the import of SKS rifles manufactured in Albania and the former Yugoslavia.
WASHINGTON, DC - December 6 - Following yesterday's shooting at the Westroads Mall in Omaha, Nebraska, the Violence Policy Center (www.vpc.org) today released a backgrounder on SKS assault rifles:
SKS Assault RiflesA Menace to Public Safety: http://www.vpc.org/fact_sht/SKSfactsheet.pdf
The backgrounder notes that SKS assault rifles are the rifle model most frequently encountered by law enforcement officers, according to a 2002 report by the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). The ATF report also notes that these high capacity rifles pose an enhanced threat to law enforcement, in part because of their ability to expel projectiles at velocities that are capable of penetrating the type of soft body armor typically worn by the law enforcement officers. Despite the hazard this assault weapon poses to law enforcement and the general public, the rifle was not covered by the federal assault weapons ban that expired in 2004.
The backgrounder also notes that Russian SKS assault rifles may not be imported pursuant to voluntary trade agreements initiated during the Clinton Administration. The Bush Administration, however, has specifically authorized the import of SKS rifles manufactured in Albania and the former Yugoslavia.
http://www.commondreams.org/news2007/1206-06.htm
Post by: Paddy on December 06, 2007, 12:45:02 PM
" these high capacity rifles pose an enhanced threat to law enforcement, in part because of their
ability to expel projectiles at velocities that are capable of penetrating the type of soft
body armor typically worn by the law enforcement officers.
Yikes! I have two of these evil 'AW's, a Yugo and a Chinese, and never knew they possessed this ability. I'll have to check up on them and see what they've been doing.
Post by: Balog on December 06, 2007, 02:03:15 PM
Post by: El Tejon on December 06, 2007, 02:28:20 PM
You will see it again, in January 2009.
Police now. Buy them cheap and bury them deep.
Post by: Len Budney on December 07, 2007, 03:30:43 AM
Yikes! I have two of these evil 'AW's, a Yugo and a Chinese, and never knew they possessed this ability.
To penetrate body armor? Sure--police body armor doesn't include rifle plates. They're really only effective against pistol fire.
--Len.
Post by: Manedwolf on December 07, 2007, 04:40:34 AM
Quote
Mall Shooting: How to Protect Yourself
Local News Posted on December 6th, 2007 by Sarah Brodhead.
The mall shooting in Omaha has a lot of people wondering if it could happen here.
Local authorities and mall officials say you can't prevent this type of tragedy... but you can prepare for it.
"When I was leaving my house for the mall this morning, I wondered if I should go considering what happened," says Megan Stenhouse, a mother of four young children. "I'd like to think that it wouldn't happen here," laments shopper Kathy Schied. But it could happen anywhere.
"In a case like a mall shooting, you should avoid the threat," says Grand Junction Police Department officer T.J. Rix.
Authorities say they do have plans in place if a shooting happened here, however, mall security is being tight-lipped about what those plans actually are.
"All of our security officers go through a comprehensive training program," says Paul Petersen, general manager of Mesa Mall.
Police say if a shooter opened fire in a store with direct exits, you should go outside.
If you're in a store wedged between others, it's best to go to the back, get down, and stay out of sight.
You should also be aware of your surroundings and don't put yourself in a vulnerable position.
Local News Posted on December 6th, 2007 by Sarah Brodhead.
The mall shooting in Omaha has a lot of people wondering if it could happen here.
Local authorities and mall officials say you can't prevent this type of tragedy... but you can prepare for it.
"When I was leaving my house for the mall this morning, I wondered if I should go considering what happened," says Megan Stenhouse, a mother of four young children. "I'd like to think that it wouldn't happen here," laments shopper Kathy Schied. But it could happen anywhere.
"In a case like a mall shooting, you should avoid the threat," says Grand Junction Police Department officer T.J. Rix.
Authorities say they do have plans in place if a shooting happened here, however, mall security is being tight-lipped about what those plans actually are.
"All of our security officers go through a comprehensive training program," says Paul Petersen, general manager of Mesa Mall.
Police say if a shooter opened fire in a store with direct exits, you should go outside.
If you're in a store wedged between others, it's best to go to the back, get down, and stay out of sight.
You should also be aware of your surroundings and don't put yourself in a vulnerable position.
http://krex.tv/modules/news/article.php?storyid=802
By the way, one of the 911 calls is chilling not because of what you hear, but because of the blase response of the dispatcher. The person calling didn't want to talk, obviously, for fear of being heard, or perhaps they'd been shot. But you can clearly hear:
"911, please state your emergency."
*BLAM BLAM BLAM* *BLAM*
"911....hellloooo....please state your emergency."
*BLAM BLAM BLAM*
*silence*
"Hellloooo....."
It was really freaking obvious that it was rifle fire, even in the recording, with the echo of an indoor space.
So much for "the police will arrive quickly". It took them six minutes.
Post by: Boomhauer on December 07, 2007, 05:15:40 AM
Quote
mall security is being tight-lipped about what those plans actually are
Where, oh where, are the electric tactical response vehicles?
Are they issuing extra trauma plates and duct tape?
What about the boots that let you walk on walls?
What about the nightly practice?
What about saving little boys from being raped in bathrooms?
What about the Special Weapons "superior to HK" guns?
What about the large asian gangs?
So many questions...
Post by: Paddy on December 07, 2007, 05:25:24 AM
Yikes! I have two of these evil 'AW's, a Yugo and a Chinese, and never knew they possessed this ability.
To penetrate body armor? Sure--police body armor doesn't include rifle plates. They're really only effective against pistol fire.
--Len.
AFAIK, they do not independently have this ability. I, or another person, must first pick up the weapon, load it with the correct ammunition, aim and fire at the police body armor in order to penetrate same.
Post by: Len Budney on December 07, 2007, 05:39:25 AM
Yikes! I have two of these evil 'AW's, a Yugo and a Chinese, and never knew they possessed this ability.
To penetrate body armor? Sure--police body armor doesn't include rifle plates. They're really only effective against pistol fire.
AFAIK, they do not independently have this ability. I, or another person, must first pick up the weapon, load it with the correct ammunition, aim and fire at the police body armor in order to penetrate same.
Ah--gotcha. I misunderstood you.
Post by: SteveS on December 07, 2007, 05:44:43 AM
What really bugs me is that, apparently, someone spoke to him on the phone, trying to get him to return home with NO success. WHY didn't they call 9-1-1 and report that incident after they had failed?? The entire thing could have been averted had they done so, at least I THINK it could have been. Also, with most everybody having a cell phone, why didn't someone call the cops when they saw this man come into the mall with an uncased rifle??
CBS interviewed this woman. The shooter gave no clue as to what he would do or where he was going. She thought he might hurt himself, but didn't know. I don't know why people didn't call 911 when he was walking around with the SKS. I wondered the same thing.
Post by: CAnnoneer on December 07, 2007, 12:56:05 PM
Manedwolf is right in that national coverage only encourages the psychoes who want to be famous. Copycats are sure to follow.
Post by: AmbulanceDriver on December 07, 2007, 01:16:02 PM
The picture is *really* blurry, but it does appear to be an AK-type rifle.... Front sight looks too tall to be an SKS.......
(k, can't upload it. says upload folder is full. It's currently the main image on www.drudgereport.com )
Post by: Manedwolf on December 07, 2007, 01:25:09 PM
Well, I've now seen an alleged picture of the alleged shooter holding the alleged rifle..... From drudge.... Gonna see if I can upload it here.....
The picture is *really* blurry, but it does appear to be an AK-type rifle.... Front sight looks too tall to be an SKS.......
The picture is *really* blurry, but it does appear to be an AK-type rifle.... Front sight looks too tall to be an SKS.......
It looks like a Chinese Type 56 sight to me. Hood and all. Which is an SKS.
Post by: 280plus on December 07, 2007, 01:49:17 PM
Post by: Manedwolf on December 07, 2007, 02:33:24 PM
One of the medias just called it an AK-47
The nooz has also called it a machine gun and automatic.
Post by: garyk/nm on December 08, 2007, 06:28:46 AM
My source for this info is Omaha PD, has seen all of the security videos, and is very close to the Chief. I was there 2 weeks ago and can confirm the "no carry" postings .