Post by: telewinz on March 14, 2005, 02:00:52 PM
Post by: duck hunt on March 14, 2005, 02:14:19 PM
Post by: Lee on March 14, 2005, 04:06:08 PM
Post by: Stand_watie on March 14, 2005, 04:24:07 PM
Post by: Chris Rhines on March 14, 2005, 05:49:38 PM
- Chris
Post by: Winston Smith on March 14, 2005, 07:39:52 PM
Post by: wasrjoe on March 14, 2005, 07:45:33 PM
Post by: telewinz on March 15, 2005, 01:50:30 AM
Never said it was a problem but whats the cause? Western values can and are being taught outside the church (traditional source)? Or those values no longer apply?
Post by: MaterDei on March 15, 2005, 02:21:49 AM
"Perhaps some people are more comfortable talking to God in the privacy of their own homes for whatever reason."
All of the people I know who don't go to church have no real faith. There is nothing that suggests that the 95% of non churchgoers in England just prefer to worship at home, they have simply lost their faith and embraced secular humanism. Those that have been graced by faith WANT to go to church and they want to shout their joy from the mountaintop.
Will America follow? No time soon. Church attendance in this country is up, not down. We just elected a president, for the first time in history, because of 'moral issues'. This country is being attacked by the forces of evil like never before. That is a good sign.
Post by: Jason on March 15, 2005, 03:54:03 AM
Quote from: Chris Rhines
This is a problem how, exactly?
- Chris
Exactly. I'm starting to think that maybe if England allowed gun ownership it would be Utopia... - Chris
Post by: BillBlank on March 15, 2005, 06:40:55 AM
Now where did I put that ruddy goat?
OTH christian worship does seem to be expiring in this country. Very possibly a symptom of either increased self reliance and education or a symptom of increasing hedonism and self centred attitudes.
Who knows, I like christians but do not view the church, be it anglican, catholic, muslim, whatever, as a good thing. A tool for evil men if you look at history.
Post by: Sean Smith on March 15, 2005, 06:57:56 AM
Quote from: Atc1man
Quote from: Chris Rhines
This is a problem how, exactly?
- Chris
Exactly. I'm starting to think that maybe if England allowed gun ownership it would be Utopia... - Chris
Post by: SteveS on March 15, 2005, 03:28:06 PM
Quote from: Sean Smith
Quote from: Atc1man
Quote from: Chris Rhines
This is a problem how, exactly?
- Chris
Exactly. I'm starting to think that maybe if England allowed gun ownership it would be Utopia... - Chris
I guess I have always viewed church as a positive factor in my life and regularily attend. While most religions have been used as a tool of evil at some point in time, this was the fault of evil men (and women), not the "church." Additionally, there are numerous other institutions that have been used for evil purposes, that have been able to clean up their act.
Post by: duck hunt on March 15, 2005, 04:30:16 PM
Maybe you need to broaden your circle of friends. I know a wide variety of very spiritual people who do not attend church. I also know some real evil SOBs who do. The converse is also true. It's all about the person, not the building.
Those that have been graced by faith WANT to go to church and they want to shout their joy from the mountaintop.
Or those who have REAL faith don't need to crow about it. Don't they say fool's gold shines brightest or something to that effect?
Post by: trapperjohn on March 15, 2005, 05:22:20 PM
Yes such evil deed as :
1) taking care of orhpans
2) building hospitals
3) feeding the poor
4) housing the poor
5) helping to abolish slavery
6) helped india eliminate buring th ewomen to death at the husbands funeral
7) helped do away with chinese custom of foot breaking
irish monks singlhandedly preserving much of western civilizations writingsSuch an aweful institution. so much more warlike and evil than a good athiestic governemnet like soviet russia, red china, or cuba
Post by: BillBlank on March 15, 2005, 11:54:20 PM
I will not refute that thanks to the christian church/islam/etal being around for 2000 years or so and having a respect for scholorship, where it did not disagree with the leaderships view of the world (see Gallileo and others), that they have been solely responsible for the preservation and continuance of learning in humanities darkest days.
However, where an organised religion has had political power, the results have been, shall we say, messy. What do you think paid for all those nice churches, mosques, temples, paintings etc?
In the round, over the last couple of millenia, organised religion has been used by powerful people as a tool of oppression and a neat excuse to rape and pillage. With respect, athiestic systems such as china and russia bear striking resemblances to other societies in history that have revolved around a single, rigidly enforced, philosophy/dogma. They also both have reverence for the annointed prophet, Lenin, uncle Joe, Moa etc. Both sides of the same coin you might say. I am making the point that humans aren't nice to each other and some, given the opportunity, make very effective use of organised religion or dogma as a tool to further their own interests.
Go to a library with a history section of reasonable quality armed with the questions below.
1. Has organised religion co-ordinated, condoned, profited from or encouraged the masses to support wars of acquisition?
2. Has organised religion been used as an excuse to oppress people in manners that directly contradict the teachings of that religion?
3. Did organised religion profit hugely from this?
4. Has organised religion used an ethnic group as a scapegoat when a their all powerful godhead has visited a natural disaster upon the populace?
5. What has been the reaction of the leaders of organised religion/the Party, whatever, when their philosophy/dogma is challenged? Hint: Spanish inquisition, witch burnings, the Gulag etc, etc.
6. Has it been the case that, if enough money was passed over, one could have ones misdeeds forgiven or that, inversly, if one failed to make ones proper contribution then one could well be consigned to eternal damnation?
I'm a man of faith but the god I believe in isn't short of a buck or two and doesn't need acts of street robbery writ large to help us worship.
Post by: Guest on March 16, 2005, 01:40:57 AM