Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: gunsmith on July 21, 2010, 07:17:02 PM
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http://www.lvrj.com/multimedia/Father-of-Costco-Shooting-Victim-Speaks-to-Review-Journal--98557964.html
I just heard about this seems to be one of those cases where the cops were shouting different orders ( hands up/get down/give us the gun)
from open carry forum
According to a first hand eye witness story, Scott was executed by the cops from the sounds of it.
(Please do not quote entire articles - OV)
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Well.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zy5zi86o3s
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Hooo boy.... I have a feeling this thing is gonna get *REALLY* interesting... My condolences to the family of this young man.... If it turns out this young man was following the officers commands, I have a feeling that the cops are gonna be in a lot of hot water.
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Kinda personal, because I've often tried to think of what to do if they hollered at me to get down on the ground or on my knees. Can't do it without using my hands in the first place, and can't kneel in the second place.
A very interesting story from the witnesses.
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Kinda personal, because I've often tried to think of what to do if they hollered at me to get down on the ground or on my knees. Can't do it without using my hands in the first place, and can't kneel in the second place.
A very interesting story from the witnesses.
That's why all academies I know of (at least all in Michigan) teach a very specific sequence of orders to officers for ordering someone down, including which knee to get down on first, and which hand to use when going to the stomach. Of course, everyone involved could end up seriously SOL if the officer forgets his training.
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I have been watching this on several boards for about a week.
Any video from Costco has not yet surfaced.
Seems that LVMPD has about 17 officer involved shootings a year, and all have been justified.
I am very curious about additional details on this.
Jamie
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If it turns out this young man was following the officers commands, I have a feeling that the cops are gonna be in a lot of hot water. .
NO. If the cops are in the wrong, hot water is the best that they can hope for (and probably all that will happen). If the cops were in the wrong, murder charges should be filed and no one should give them any special treatment at all. Treat the the same as you would any other murder suspect (wont happen).
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LVPD cops have nothing to worry about. There has NEVER been an "bad shoot" by LVPD.
They were even able to justify the officer that emptied his weapon into the back of my unarmed, dressed only in shorts and carrying a basketball cousin. (actually IIRC he was only hit 9 out of 17 rounds)
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I've been following this for about a week too. The cops involved should hope they get a day in court, after all they might be vindicated. Because if this get whitewashed (and it's already looking that way) I think Daddy is gonna hunt them down.
[popcorn]
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NO. If the cops are in the wrong, hot water is the best that they can hope for (and probably all that will happen). If the cops were in the wrong, murder charges should be filed and no one should give them any special treatment at all. Treat the the same as you would any other murder suspect (wont happen).
If this turns out to be a bad shoot, I pray they prosecute the shooter appropriately. This whole, "The law is for thee, not for me," bull is simply adding more fuel to a combustible situation which will ignite eventually to correct itself. It speaks to the same problems we are having in the (less than) free market concerning companies that need to fail in order for a healthy market to make small self-corrections. At best, all they are doing (by preventing the initial failure) is setting up a situation in which the entities involved fail anyway. More likely though, is that you are only delaying the inevitable and complicating the process by increasing thr scope and breadth of said failure.
I liken it to the, "Well. If I'm going to fail, I'm taking the whole GD fishing fleet with me!" This problem is advanced by perpetuating the myth that we are each a man unto ourselves; as individuals "I's got to getz mine!"; I am more important as an individual; my wants, desires, and feelings are more important than anyone or everyone else's, etc., ad nauseum.
As long as this mentality retains it's grip on us as a culture, we are doomed to fail. It is simply a result of the function which we are currently inputting an ever-increasing amount of "people who operate without thinking of the consequences beyond themselves", or more likely, their own feelings.
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As long as this mentality retains it's grip on us as a culture, we are doomed to fail. It is simply a result of the function which we are currently inputting an ever-increasing amount of "people who operate without thinking of the consequences beyond themselves", or more likely, their own feelings.
Not too long ago in a thread dealing with cooperating with police officers [with cautious optimism/good faith] a video linked in a response put forth the argument of how absurd it would be to risk imprisonment by saying anything to police for some intangible social good.
Its the tragedy of the commons. By only examining the individual gain/costs the actual costs are sent along to others for a net loss to society and eventual loss of future benefits to the individual and everyone. In this case, sure shooting at the slightest hint of perceived danger removes a possible threat faster, but that benefit from not confirming targets, gives the long term costs of greatly decreased faith in LEOs, leading to... bad things.
I'd really like to avoid ever having to live in a failed state.
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bold added by me
http://www.lvrj.com/news/man-did-not-pull-gun-on-police-at-costco--lawyer-says-98279344.html
Police have said that Scott drew a pistol and pointed it at officers after they ordered him to raise his hands and lie on the ground. Both witnesses gave their accounts to homicide investigators, they said.
The 72-year-old man heard police say, "Get on the ground. Get on the ground." He saw Scott facing the officers, who were between Scott and the store entrance.
The man said he saw Scott reach with his right hand and pull out what appeared to be a gun in a zippered holster. He recognized the holster, he said, because he has one like it. Officers then fired, and the man saw the gun fall out of Scott's hand. The witness did not see Scott point the gun at officers.
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The second witness, who also spoke on the condition that his name not be used, was standing near the entrance when he said he heard police shout, "Get down on the ground. Get down now."
He turned to see why police were yelling, he said, and saw Scott reaching for what appeared to be a pistol in his waistband. The witness said he recognized the butt of the gun and immediately turned toward his wife and covered her as they dove to the ground.
"He was definitely reaching for the gun," the man said.
The witness turned away before he could see whether Scott fully removed the weapon from his waistband and didn't see the shooting. He said it did not appear that Scott was trying to "quick-draw" the weapon on the officers.
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a lot of witnesses contradict what the above article says, just saying.
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Of course the blue wagons are being circled. If the guy pulled a weapon, so be it. The cops should protect themselves (I'll argue later about opening fire with so many innocents in the area)
So many others are coming out with eyewitness reports that are very damning. I hope a video surfaces to see what happend (if it shows that LE was wrong, it probably won't see the light of day). The fact that it hasn't already been released is telling.
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a lot of witnesses contradict what the above article says, just saying.
the other witnesses don't so much contradict as they testify that they from their viewpoint did not see a gun as opposed to being able to categorically say that he didn't have one or make a move towards it. one sad thing is the role that costco's "no guns " policy played in this. a more realistic policy woulda made this not a incident at all. of course so would "concealed means concealed"
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Anyone familiar with the gun laws in Nevada? Could he have had a CCW permit, and thus legally armed?
As to witnesses, after spending 16 years in the criminal court system, I am still amazed that several people can witness the same exact incident, and yet have widely varying versions of the facts when asked simply "what did you see?"
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Anyone familiar with the gun laws in Nevada? Could he have had a CCW permit, and thus legally armed?
As to witnesses, after spending 16 years in the criminal court system, I am still amazed that several people can witness the same exact incident, and yet have widely varying versions of the facts when asked simply "what did you see?"
Nevada is a shall-issue state, so it is very possible that he could have had one. Generally, Nevada is pretty gun friendly, except for Clark County (where Vegas is located) which requires registration of handguns.
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Its the tragedy of the commons. By only examining the individual gain/costs the actual costs are sent along to others for a net loss to society and eventual loss of future benefits to the individual and everyone. In this case, sure shooting at the slightest hint of perceived danger removes a possible threat faster, but that benefit from not confirming targets, gives the long term costs of greatly decreased faith in LEOs, leading to... bad things.
The police are not responsible for the safety of the citizenry, which is fair enough. It goes without saying that the police cannot be everywhere at once - and who would want them to be? The problem is that citizens have been legislated out of their right to self-defense - physical or otherwise. Each day, people see criminals go more-or-less unpunished for actual crimes, while law enforcement focuses more and more intensely on revenue generation(photo enforcement, as a local example). Nobody can stick up for the law-abiding individual. What else is going to happen?
one sad thing is the role that costco's "no guns " policy played in this. a more realistic policy woulda made this not a incident at all. of course so would "concealed means concealed"
I don't quite see how Costco's policy changed anything that happened here - what do you mean?
I am a Costco member and I fume every time I leave my lawfully-carried weapon at home or in the car.
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This seems to me to be another reason all cops should be fitted with cameras recording audio/video. Unedited police video could, in a case like this, remove any doubts about what happened.
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downright strange that the video tapes still have yet to be released.
West Point grads are not known for trying to shoot it out with the police, I'm pretty curious.
Why not release the tape if its a good shoot?
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This seems to me to be another reason all cops should be fitted with cameras recording audio/video. Unedited police video could, in a case like this, remove any doubts about what happened.
Agreed.
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the last article i read had it as costco that was still holding the tapes and its one of the offsite recording deals
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Costco's no gun policy isn't nation wide. Guns allowed in VA costcos.
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i'll have to check and see if the stupid sign is gone from mine
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West Point grads are not known for trying to shoot it out with the police, I'm pretty curious.
As a former inmate at that fine federal prison on the Hudson :laugh: , I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that some members of the Long Grey Line are crazy enough to give something like that a try...
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As a former inmate at that fine federal prison on the Hudson :laugh: , I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that some members of the Long Grey Line are crazy enough to give something like that a try...
Was something like 15 years ago, but the fellow ranked 2nd in the class got himself drowned when he tried to go paragliding off a local bridge. My father also tells the tale of the WP Lt who when a grenade was thrown into camp and didn't go off assured everyone 'it was just a du....' after having picked it up and started to shake it next to his ear. A few of the best and brightest were caught a couple of years back having taken things from long term storage for cadets and selling them on Ebay. While I still respect the institution, a close look has cost it a lot of its luster in my eyes.
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Something is starting to stink. Costco now says that the video is damaged and cannot be viewed. I cannot find a like to verify, but was told by a friend who I trust that lives in the area, that this was reported in the news, locally.
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Something is starting to stink. Costco now says that the video is damaged and cannot be viewed. I cannot find a like to verify, but was told by a friend who I trust that lives in the area, that this was reported in the news, locally.
Ick.
Well if you do manage to find a link, perhaps on the website of those local news stations, do post it please.
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It's pretty common for store security systems to re-use old VHS tapes long after they have deteriorated beyond any possibility of a decent picture or any functionality at all. I worked in a computer store two years. We reviewed the tapes about a half dozen times, for thefts and forgeries, and at least half of those times, the tape was unreadable.
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Police Have Not Viewed Costco Surveillance Tapes
From News 8. I'll get a link up as soon as I find one that you do not have to suscribe to. This came from:
http://www.bayoushooter.com/forums/showthread.php?p=515891
YET MOAR COPYWRITED MATERIAL REMOVED
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It's pretty common for store security systems to re-use old VHS tapes long after they have deteriorated beyond any possibility of a decent picture or any functionality at all. I worked in a computer store two years. We reviewed the tapes about a half dozen times, for thefts and forgeries, and at least half of those times, the tape was unreadable.
How convenient for them.
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inquest is very interesting not gonna make battle monkey happy
http://www.8newsnow.com/story/13201704/doctor-connected-to-erik-scott-denies-treating-him
this site has links to lots of srories and video from the inquest
check out his dads blog i haven't yet found out what wife 2 said that got daddy so riled or about the "colorado case"
the doctors reports are very interesting as is the toxicology and the pharmacists analysis of how the 32 substances he was doing could have affected him
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http://erikbscottmemorialblog.blogspot.com/
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Pictures of Scott's gun in its holster lying on the ground...and the video from Costco inside and outside the store not available due to "technical difficulties".....
....pretty damning evidence for the upcoming lawsuits....
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President Obama and John Wayne were both conspicuously absent!
The point is, a lack of evidence proves nothing.
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I am a retired LEO and former Chief of a small department in northern Illinois.
There has been no testimony that Scott did anything wrong, he had commited no crime.
Mosher, the cop in front of him, has had three prior officer involved shootings and trwo of those were fatal.
Scott was hit twice from the front with one of those rounds entering his armpit without impacting his arm.
Five more shots struck him from the rear, with one of those entering his left buttock, passing through his pelvis and colon and stioppping in his chest. (He was on his hands and knees when this round struck him.
LV Metro averages 17 shootings per year and over the past ten years only one was ruled unjustified and that officer was not prosecuted.(1 out of 190 inquests)
None of what was going on in Scott's life should even been admissable because the cops at the scene at the time of the shooting did not have that info.
The only thing that counts is what actually transpired and what they, the cops, saw and heard. If there is no testimony that he presented an active threat or had commited a forcible felony, the cops should be fried.
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None of what was going on in Scott's life should even been admissable because the cops at the scene at the time of the shooting did not have that info.
The only thing that counts is what actually transpired and what they, the cops, saw and heard. If there is no testimony that he presented an active threat or had commited a forcible felony, the cops should be fried.
There you go. Dont talk about the actual truth. You'll be thought of as a cop basher.
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There you go. Dont talk about the actual truth. You'll be thought of as a cop basher.
What about the Costco employee that said:
"He reached behind him and pulled out his gun and aimed it at the officer," Kullberg said. "At that time, the officer shot him."
I haven't seen the pictures, but it seems to me that at least two distinct stories are being circulated. I'm not really interested iin either cop or CCW bashing, but someone ain't telling the truth.
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i'm suspecting bud hasn't seen the video from the inquest
its quite interesting
and the coroners report and tox are fascinating as is the doctors testimony.
heck his own dads blog doesn't do him any favors
3 cops throw down on you? a fast move for gun? bring it up not drop it? according to multiple witnesses point it at the cop?
narcotics do not improve your decision making and i'm not sure he wasn't committing suicide by cop
in the town where you were chief would being under the influence of narcotics and carrying have been a crime?
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Under the influence of narcotics, prescribed by a doctor, and carrying is not a crime. Hell I know several folks, one a retired cop, who is on pain meds (hydrocodone), and will be for the rest of his life, and <gasp> he carries concealed. But maybe thats not a good example, he is retired LE, thus a special class when it comes to carrying a weapon.
I bet a video would settle this. And I don't buy the "technical problems" bs.
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have you troubled yourself with the inquest info?
the issue of what was prescribed and by who has been raised , and in that the one doc whose name appears says hes never seen erik and that his "actress" g/f was fired from that office, it does make a feller wonder. also might explain how his very vocal g/f decided to decline testifying at the inquest. having to take the fifth is awkward.
is carry while intoxicated to the point of staggering legal? when to quote a witness who saw him in costcos recollection of mr scotts own words
"wow i' really am f'd up"
or the different witness who recounted overhearing him and his g/f discussing his level of intoxication?
might i suggest burdening yourself with the awkward relevant facts? i feel bad for the guy i know what its like to be strung out
i suspect that we will be finding out more about him and thus far the more we unwrap the worse it gets
actions carry consequences and in this case drug abuse and concealed carry mixed with poor decision making was fatal
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whats nev law on trespass? if you are asked to leave and don't instead getting a lil loud and telling em you were a green beanie would that be illegal in nev? how about in illinois? in virginia it would be tresspassing
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10:12 a.m.
"I thought I was going to get shot because of a dog bite," Novotny testified.
Novotny said that made him angry.
"When he pointed the gun at me, yes I did (get angry). But afterwards, I cooled off," Novotny said. "I was mad because he pointed a gun at me and he threatened to shoot me."
Scott apologized and said he was sorry for the incident. Novotny said he offered to pay for Scott's hospital bill from the dog bite, but Scott left.
Novotny said he wasn't fearful of confronting Scott, "because I was also carrying."
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one of his docs said
Dr. Shari Klein said she started treating Scott in 2008, but as the months passed she saw less and less of him because he couldn't afford her services. She said Scott told her he had used a variety of street drugs, including cocaine, ecstasy and anabolic steroids in the past. He also battled depression and told her that depression, along with substance abuse, were part of his family history.
In the summer of 2009, Scott e-mailed Klein a request for the prescription hydrocodone, a powerful narcotic painkiller that he thought would help his depression.
"I really don't want to deal with one of those scumbag drug-pushing pain doctors," he wrote, and suggested she use his chronic elbow and knee pain to justify the prescription.
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whats nev law on trespass? if you are asked to leave and don't instead getting a lil loud and telling em you were a green beanie would that be illegal in nev? how about in illinois? in virginia it would be tresspassing
When I went through my ccw class, my instructor said if you are asked to leave, leave. If they detain you, just tell the officer you were trying to leave. That is what he should of done and how it is in the rest of the state, but then there's Vegas.... Vegas is rapidly becoming the Chicago of the American south west. Just as Chicago traded in the mofia for the city government, Vegas is doing the same. Vegas is the sole reason I cannot use my CCW instead of a background check for buying a firearm. The gun laws in Vegas are different than every other county in the state.
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If the presence of painkillers from OTJ injuries, and performance-enhancing drugs (such as testosterone, other anabolic steroids, or HGH) are sufficient to bring doubt on a person's performance in a shooting, I know, personally, several who would be in deep kimchee and I bet large swaths of contemporary LEOs also would have difficulties.
IOW, lotsa cops used/use 'roids & HGH sourced from legit docs or otherwise. And lotsa cops get injuries requiring painkilelrs. SOme short-term, some long-term.
IIRC, some chief LEO out west pushed T and HGH on his subordinates via one of these anti-aging docs. Might have beenLv.
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i'm suspecting bud hasn't seen the video from the inquest
its quite interesting
and the coroners report and tox are fascinating as is the doctors testimony.
heck his own dads blog doesn't do him any favors
3 cops throw down on you? a fast move for gun? bring it up not drop it? according to multiple witnesses point it at the cop?
narcotics do not improve your decision making and i'm not sure he wasn't committing suicide by cop
in the town where you were chief would being under the influence of narcotics and carrying have been a crime?
One cop was pointing at him and he couldn't see the other cops behind him.
Testimony said all three cops were shouting "Put your hands in the air", another saying "get down on your knees" and the third saying "put your gun down"
One cop, who has a very sad history (Mosher, this was his third fatal and fourth shooting) openb fire when the Scott attempted to draw his weapon and put it on the ground like the idiot behind was screaming.
It is not illegal to use drugs that you have a scrip for,(he was driving, he was walking) and he had a Nevada concealed carry permit.
Again, the cops did not know he had broken any laws, his gun was not visable when he came out of the building but the cops already had theirs out.
This was an over reaction by one cop and the other idiots behind him just followed the leader.
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http://www.ktnv.com/global/story.asp?s=12920574
According to Ross Goodman, the attorney representing the Scott family, the radio scanner recordings are full of gaps and what they really need to see and hear is what has not been produced so far; the surveillance tape and official 911 calls.
"The male inside the business is acting erratic. Throwing merchandise around…possibly high on an unknown 446 (narcotics).
Goodman, says these recordings fail to prove whether the officers were justified in opening fire that day.
"Until we get the video that confirms that Erik was not acting erratic in Costco and that he did not pull a weapon outside of Costco, that's all we need to put to rest this case," he added.
Surveillance video that would reveal exactly what led up to the shooting. But according metro, the tapes had a glitch and sent the hard drives to be analyzed.
"It's been three weeks. We are demanding answers to the status of the video, the condition of the video and the location of the video," said Goodman.
Wow! The Police Department found a 'glitch' in the DVR recording that amazingly happened during the shooting that makes it hard to determine what really happened. Amazing! What are the odds?
http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/gunned-down-in-vegas-what-really-happened-to-erik-scott/?singlepage=true
Erik turned to find three officers facing him, guns drawn, and all three shouting different commands: “Get on the ground!” “Drop your weapon!” “Keep your hands up!” Erik held his hands up, spoke calmly, told them he DID have a concealed firearm and a legal CCW and was an ex-Army officer. His girlfriend was screaming about Erik being a West Point grad, former Army officer, etc. Erik leaned to his left, hands still up, to expose the pistol, and repeated, “I am disarming; I am disarming.” Witnesses say he started to lower his right hand, palm OUT, perhaps intending to remove holster and gun together — but never got the hand below his shoulder, when one of the cops (believed to be William Mosher, who had committed a fatal shooting in 2006) shot Erik in the chest with a .45-caliber semi-automatic weapon. Erik dropped to his knees, clearly in shock, his face a picture of disbelief. He was shot a second time and collapsed. The rest is ugly. The three officers unloaded again, firing a total of seven hollow-point rounds. At least four, possibly five, hit Erik in the back, after he was on the ground and dying.
Two experts hired by Scott’s family examined his body. They claim that of the seven .45 ACP hollowpoint bullets fired into Scott’s body, one was fired through his armpit, suggesting his arm was raised at the time. Four remaining shots were fired into his back. There were no exit wounds, making it all but impossible for police to claim that investigators misread through-and-through wounds.
I hope the police in this incident get a fair trial. I also hope that the whole truth comes out, I hope the police who murdered subdued this man are fried.
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can i safely say you didn't use the links either?
the us secret service handled the bad hard drive. and it was reported dead by costco 2 days prior to the shooting
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you have a guy at gunpoint he grabs his gun and starts to bring it up to point at you. your move what do you do? we'll ignore the reports you got and the fact he seems a lil out there
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me? i make holes in him
apparently if i was a cop there is another magical option
what would you guys do? why? how?
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you have a guy at gunpoint he grabs his gun and starts to bring it up to point at you. your move what do you do? we'll ignore the reports you got and the fact he seems a lil out there
Circle strafe him and shoot him in the back?
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we'll ignore the reports you got and the fact he seems a lil out there
I'll ignore the red herring about his prescription drug use. I've had a serious back injury in my past and have been using prescription hydrocodone for decades. From first hand experience, I can tell you that it doesn't make you into a violent zombie, more like taking the edge off serious pain in exchange for some mild nasea and dizziness. If the police want to smear his character by portraying him as a user of prescription painkillers and steroidal compounds, there are many of us out here like myself who can see right through the bullshit.
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There you go. Dont talk about the actual truth. You'll be thought of as a cop basher.
Cop bashing is much, much different than discussing fallabilities with individual police officers and even some departments. I promise that it doesn't take a rocket scientist to tell the difference.
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Ya know, I have a feeling that we're gonna keep getting conflicting information on this until (hopefully) a grand jury has a chance to look at it.
Then (hopefully) the truth will come out.
As it stands, if he was being given conflicting commands and was shot while lowering his hands to follow another officers instructions, then it's clearly a bad shoot.
If he drew his gun and pointed it at the cops, then it's clearly a good shoot.
(Hopefully) the truth will eventually come out on this one.
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it appears to me he was given conflicting commands. afaik the video tape wasn't working so we may never know for sure
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Sounds like the holes in Mr Scott's body don't "line up" with the police story, if he has a GS entry wound in his gun hand armpit.
I also wonder if the muscular tearing from the backshot GSW's could tell whether his deltoids and upper back muscles were flexed versus relaxed, indicating his arms were up during THOSE gunshots.
Add in the "failure" of the DVR...
... Every day I come closer and closer to the judgement that good cops are the exception, and that bad policy, bad recruiting and institutional cover-ups are the norm.
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were any of those commands "grab your gun"
you make a good point though three guys hollering is bad. would be better to have just one in command like they do on a more standardized felony traffic stop. if i remember right though all that goes out the window when they see a gun. any cop that sees it hollers gun and it gets real hectic till they get it secured. the last thing i'd want is to put my hands anywhere near a gun unless they told me too and even then it would be real slow
yea it was recorded to a hard drive that was bad
i hate stories like this prescription drug abuse has overtaken street drugs in the carnage amongst my circle and its getting real bad in construction
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Sounds like the holes in Mr Scott's body don't "line up" with the police story, if he has a GS entry wound in his gun hand armpit.
I also wonder if the muscular tearing from the backshot GSW's could tell whether his deltoids and upper back muscles were flexed versus relaxed, indicating his arms were up during THOSE gunshots.
Add in the "failure" of the DVR...
... Every day I come closer and closer to the judgement that good cops are the exception, and that bad policy, bad recruiting and institutional cover-ups are the norm.
have you had a chance to read/watch the witness statements about what he was doing when he was shot?
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it appears to me he was given conflicting commands. afaik the video tape wasn't working so we may never know for sure
Not tape -- hard drive.
But the audio recording of the dispatcher's radio was working, and it does indeed appear that he was told both to show his hands and to drop the gun -- which he was apparently NOT holding when that command was givem.
I also read just a few minutes ago that at the most recent session of the inquiry, a police detective who investigated after the fact testified that Scott's pistol was still in its holster.
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yea when he grabbed it he got gun and holster there were pics of them on the ground
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were any of those commands "grab your gun"
Well, if your being commanded to drop your gun when it isn't in your hand... It does make sense that he was trying to obey that command, never taking the gun out of the holster.
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the us secret service handled the bad hard drive. and it was reported dead by costco 2 days prior to the shooting
Huh?
If they knew the hard drive was bad two days before the shooting, why was it still in operation? What Costco only had ONE hard drive to record all their surveillance? Something doesn't smell right . . .
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Huh?
If they knew the hard drive was bad two days before the shooting, why was it still in operation? What Costco only had ONE hard drive to record all their surveillance? Something doesn't smell right . . .
There you go, expecting competence from retail.
Muddling along is the norm. Its fairly likely they were waiting for next month's maintenance allocation to make the replacement.
I've worked a few years in retail and know a fair number of other folks who have/are as well.
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when it isn't in your hand...
and that is the key phrase
look at what some of the witnesses said about the gun and how he handled it
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costco sells HDs, and for that matter flashdrives. with shoplifting at the rates they claim(i suspect a lot of the goods going missing are going out the back door.) what would it have taken to swap a good drive in? under a hundred bucks at any rate. =|
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No, you cannot take one out of stock and have Irving from electronics put it in the machine.
You have a national contract with a national company who contracts for local companies to get a repair order, schedule a repair appointment, and spend nearly three tmes as much time & money completing the paperwork as actually swapping out a HD like Irving in electronics coud have done they day they found out it was wonky.
There are procedures to be followed here.
But since we are at this time pretty much guaranteed that there will be no video from Costco's cameras we are stuck with at least three different general stories of whether or not he pulled out a gun and if the gun he did or did not pull out was pointed at the cop or not.
So far a few folks have remarked about the shots from the rear, but I just don't see that going anywhere yet as regards the inquest verdict. Maybe I'll be surprized later on, but right now it looks like his family will have to resolve it via a civil suit.
And if we get to that, we'll have the same old OJ dichotomy - legally not guilty but living under a horrendous judgement.
Me? [popcorn]
stay safe.
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when it isn't in your hand...
and that is the key phrase
look at what some of the witnesses said about the gun and how he handled it
Didn't witnesses also say he didn't handle it?
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not exactly they say they didn't see him handle it and that may well be true them not seeing it does not mean it didn't happen i often miss seeing something especially when there are cops flashing lights fleeing folks etc going on. i know the usual suspects had a lot invested in this being a bad shoot, they made a bad investment and the more they hold on the more they damage whatever credibility they had. hell even a truther would have a hard time making this conspiracy work. at first i had a hard time reconciling his families reaction till i heard the dead guys doc talk about the familial history of alcohol and substance abuse. this is just the nadir of a multi generational tragedy . truly there but for the grace of a merciful god go i
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Anyone on here arguing either side with any certainty at this point should be ashamed of himself.
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ton of links here to various testimony
http://www.fox5vegas.com/news/25180021/detail.html
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Conflicting testimony from equally credible sources. And yes, I find average citizens to be equally as credible as police officers.
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there was less conflict amongst the docs well except the one who never saw him and found out that someone wrote a scrip from his office, coincidentally during the time the g/f worked in the office. i wanna find out how bad the colorado incident was that dad thought he needed to make excuses for it in advance and likewise the mysterious 2nd wife who apparently also has enough dirt that dad thought naming her as a drug dealer/stripper in advance was advisable
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The Secret Service has the wonky Costco hard drive? Why? Is there not a competent forensic data recovery company somewhere thereabouts that handles this sort of thing for LE? Would not the county SO take charge of the drive, at least for appearances sake, independent investigation and all? Why the SS?
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i think it was for the independence and they have a very good forensic it lab. i think they took it to a commercial lab at least that was who testified about the drive some outfit outa california
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Lastly, I strongly urge Sheriff Gillespie to carefully reconsider the Metro Tower’s entire game plan to trash Erik Scott’s character and good name. Yes, under the current sorry excuse for a Clark County coroner’s inquest process, he might succeed in getting a “justifiable” or “excusable” ruling from the inquest jury and prevent the district attorney from filing charges against his shooters.
But, in doing so, he also will unleash a personal hell. I’m sure he’ll recall that incident on May 14, 2009, around 8:00 p.m. Girlfriend at his house. Wife comes home. Shots fired. A 911 call made. Cops arrive. Everybody briefed. Metro Code of Silence imposed. The 911 call and all associated records disappear, leaving an interesting gap in the log’s numbering sequence. An excellent Las Vegas Review-Journal (RJ) reporter gets the details and writes a damning story...which never appears in the newspaper.
This time, though, the Las Vegas big-money power brokers, who threatened to pull all Strip advertising from the RJ in May 1999, have no leverage over Erik Scott’s family and hundreds of friends and supporters across the nation. There’s no RJ reporter to have fired and run out of town. This time, it’s not just a local story, either.
I have no interest in destroying the sheriff’s career or reputation. Gillespie simply needs to show Ross Goodman and Erik’s family the Costco surveillance video data (unaltered original version, please), release the 911-call audio, and forget about building a coroner’s inquest case on falsehoods and half-truths about Erik Scott. My son’s past marriages, his medical records, and hear-say tales about him have absolutely nothing to do with Erik being shot to death by Metro police officers on July 10th. Stick to the facts, Sheriff Gillespie, and this nightmare will go away.
William B. Scott
wow the stuff hes worried about must be a horror show for dad to be that worried
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Yeah, he must be hiding a lot to be asking for all the evidence to be released.
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nm
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Yeah, he must be hiding a lot to be asking for all the evidence to be released.
hes actually trying to keep some apparently ugly stuff from being being brought out about his son. apparently what i posted was dads idea of a good way to make that happen. not my idea of smart tactically or strategically. makes a guy wonder if the apple did not fall far from the tree
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hes actually trying to keep some apparently ugly stuff from being being brought out about his son.
Yes, because the only rational interpretation of someone calling for all the evidence to be released is that he's trying to distract people from something else. ;/
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did you read what he wrote? hes trying to keep things from coming out about his son. and in his world this is the way to do it
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did you read what he wrote? hes trying to keep things from coming out about his son. and in his world this is the way to do it
I read that he sees police trying to justify their (potentially) bad/negligent/homicidal actions by smearing his deceased son.
If several people with badges shot my son in full view of onlookers and security cameras, then declined to offer any evidence(and presented the appearance of suppressing evidence) - only offering what I'd call smears - I would probably respond as this dad did. If I had ANYTHING to hold over them, I would.
We're still WAY within a shadow of a doubt, both ways. There is potentially recorded evidence to be had, and all you want to talk about is this guy's past? How about LVPD's past? They're known for being not-particularly-nice.
C&SD, even if you think the dude deserved what he got, will you agree that having all the evidence would be nice?
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i won't go so far as to say he deserved what he got i woulda rather he got some help getting the monkey off his back. and be alive. its kinda spooky for it coulda been me.
nd heck yes i'd love to see the vid. i just found dads approach most unique and to me it tells me hes knows "the colorado incident" and whatever wife 2 has told the cops is a real big deal. the behavior i see is quire familiar to me we call it "dope fiend moves" in the circles i run in. i've seen various iterations of them around a number of family tragedy's. the deceased spoke from beyond the grave through his doc when he described "history of mental health and substance abuse issues in the family" .
to me its real simple guy has a gun, guy acts in a variety of ways that attracts negative attention from shoppers and guests. he is confronted by employee who see gun. employee contacts management and tells the guy no guns asks him to leave. guy goes off and refuses to go and is witnessed by another customer talking about "he could do it in texas" get asked to leave you go. is there a place in the us where thats not the law? did this guy get through the af academy and not know that?
store evacuated hes confronted outside we have a couple witnesses to him brushing away the cop and squaring off.
at this point we have some folks who get excited "he was given conflicting commands!" he was looking at 3 cops with guns drawn and he put his hand on his weapon. according to some/most witnesses he pulled it and raised it to point it at the cop in front of him. in my world that gets you shot.heck if it was the store employee holding him at gunpoint for a legitimate reason and he made that move it would be a good shoot. the folk all excited over one cop hollering get down and another saying drop the gun seem to think the drop the gun was what prompted him to grab it i think they have the order reversed his "decision" to put his hand on and pull out his gun is what prompted the drop it command. my sad experience with opiates and opiate users makes me suspect suicide by cop.
i feel for dad i know what a family suicide does to you under the best of circumstances and this is far from the best
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Sounds like a familiar story...usually told by a ghetto mom. "My son was a good boy, he was just messed up on drugs, and pulled one of his two guns on the police". It sounds like he was not able to fill out the application for the membership...so maybe he was just so out of it that he reacted oddly to the commands of the officers. I can't say that I wouldn't have done the same thing they did, given the circumstances.
They aren't mind readers, nor do they know the life story of everyone they run up against.
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Yep, but having three cops yelling three different things at you, makes it hard to comply.
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i think the yelling really got going after they saw his hand on his gun.
note to self do not reach for gun with cops pointing gun at you
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verdicts in
justified shooting
anyone ever find out what happened in colorado? or what wife 2 said/knew that was so bad?
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verdicts in
justified shooting
What a surprise.... ;/
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They aren't mind readers, nor do they know the life story of everyone they run up against.
...so why should it be permissible to use said background to justify a killing?
How about we look at the cop who's "been there before" and consider his previous "justifiable" killings when evaluating the incident? Can we look at LVPD's record, which(if I've read correctly) includes but ONE unjustified killing, and tens of killings that were A-okay?
What do you do, if cops shout different things to you? "Hands in the air" "drop the gun" "down on your knees" "stay where you are"... I know others have said it, but I can't imagine keeping a level head with several guns pointed at me. I might listen to one of them and think that in order to lessen the threat they perceive, I should remove my *holstered* weapon and set it down.
I do not defend the deceased - except to insist that he be given the dignity of a fair investigation - he seemed not to "have it all together", and he probably made a bad move. However, the cops acted poorly throughout the whole episode and for them to be let off entirely is insulting to the public they serve. Crap like this makes ALL cops look bad, and not just to the baby-mommas whose Tec-9-toting brat got wasted for good reason. What's going to happen next?
I'll tell you what, if I ever go to Vegas I'm driving straight through, and I'll damn well avoid any interaction with the po-lice. After all, I have a CCW permit, which means I *might* have a weapon, which means I *might* be a threat, which just might justify making me top-heavy if I were to make "a furtive movement" toward my license and registration.
I hope Dad sues the piss out of the department. Bad behavior, unpunished, will continue.
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LVPD has never had a bad shoot, likely never will.
Hell when they murdered my cousin he wasn't armed, didn't have any drugs on him.
Hell, it wasn't even the first time the cop had killed somebody in the line of duty, and it wasn't the last.
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http://www.8newsnow.com/story/13231782/metro (http://www.8newsnow.com/story/13231782/metro)
http://www.8newsnow.com/story/13234105/former-undersheriff-rejects-calls-for-inquest-changes (http://www.8newsnow.com/story/13234105/former-undersheriff-rejects-calls-for-inquest-changes)
Just based on the inquest procedure, this one looks destined for Federal court....
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how so?
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how so?
And they say timing is everything. Just out from AELE (which by the way you ought to be bookmarking if not subscribing to) http://www.aele.org/law/2010-10MLJ101.html (wait for the redirect - it's safe.)
The article is only Part 1 of two parts, but it redirected my position on this case and many others -- at least insofar as seeing how the courts view the matter.
I think that before I say "I want my lawyer" I'm going to say "Please tell me step by step what you want me to do." That may be followed by "I'm confused - which instruction do you want me to follow?"
stay safe.
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justified big surprise there. It's sad. LE will bring up the past history and then some on this guy. But when you bring up or want to bring up past history of a LEO involved, they always want to stick to the specific in incident. All animals are not equal.
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And they say timing is everything. Just out from AELE (which by the way you ought to be bookmarking if not subscribing to) http://www.aele.org/law/2010-10MLJ101.html (wait for the redirect - it's safe.)
Oooh, nice site with a pleasant and understandable reading. I once had a gun pointed at me when I was stopped for speeding. The officer realized the snafu and let me off, but that encounter has really stuck with me. Was the local police too. I really think society is sliding and the LEO treatment of 'dirt bags,' rarely encountered by 'taxpayers' has been sliding over to the us and them mentality. I think its an issue routed in organizational culture that would require more efforts to stem and correct than the general populous has attention span.
:Ned is not optimistic for the future:
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:Ned is not optimistic for the future:
If ned is merely not optimistic Ned needs to get his head out of that dark hole.
As you say, organizational culture that needs to be addressed and revised. It can be done. It just takes hard work and dedication over time, along with knowing the difference between cop-bashing and expressing genuine concerns.
stay safe.
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Oooh, nice site with a pleasant and understandable reading. I once had a gun pointed at me when I was stopped for speeding. The officer realized the snafu and let me off, but that encounter has really stuck with me. Was the local police too. I really think society is sliding and the LEO treatment of 'dirt bags,' rarely encountered by 'taxpayers' has been sliding over to the us and them mentality. I think its an issue routed in organizational culture that would require more efforts to stem and correct than the general populous has attention span.
:Ned is not optimistic for the future:
maybe they should be allowed to self police themselves like lawyers do thats gone swimmingly
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If ned is merely not optimistic Ned needs to get his head out of that dark hole.
I enjoy the British humor style of understatement. And I do take offense at your implication.
As you say, organizational culture that needs to be addressed and revised. It can be done. It just takes hard work and dedication over time, along with knowing the difference between cop-bashing and expressing genuine concerns.
It certainly can be done, but its hard. Being active in local politics, I have little faith in hard issues being addressed. Very few people bother to vote and the vast majority of them only vote by party line. I could go on for much longer in the difficulties of running social/political crusades and maintaining a healthy life balance, but I'm just going to rest on the understatement of lacking optimism and my deep held belief in always fighting the good fight. Just because you don't expect success isn't a good enough reason not to try.
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I enjoy the British humor style of understatement. And I do take offense at your implication.
It certainly can be done, but its hard. Being active in local politics, I have little faith in hard issues being addressed. Very few people bother to vote and the vast majority of them only vote by party line. I could go on for much longer in the difficulties of running social/political crusades and maintaining a healthy life balance, but I'm just going to rest on the understatement of lacking optimism and my deep held belief in always fighting the good fight. Just because you don't expect success isn't a good enough reason not to try.
Sorry, Ned, if you thought I was implying you were not doing anything about the situation. My comment was, as you noted, an attempt at humorous understatement. Probably better than if I ascribed "the situation is hopeless but not desparate" to your position.
For the record, I too see the value of tilting at windmills. If nothing else, it puts others on notice that someone is willing to make the effort no matter the probable outcome. And I have the bruises to show for it, not that anybody cares. Including me.
stay safe.
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For the record, I too see the value of tilting at windmills. If nothing else, it puts others on notice that someone is willing to make the effort no matter the probable outcome. And I have the bruises to show for it, not that anybody cares. Including me.
stay safe.
Not to encourage Mabs... But
:Man Hugs:
Keep up the good fight. This board if full of fellow statistical outliers, quite refreshing.
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Ya know, a nod of the head would have been OK.
stay safe.
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Get a room, you two.
:police: <--- PDA cop