Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: Balog on January 22, 2014, 03:07:11 PM
-
Getting interesting. Ukraine is a deeply divided country, roughly east of Kiev being industrialized and allied with Russia and the west being hardline anti Russia. Politicians turned down an offer to join the EU at the last minute after Russian carrots (economic advantages and bribes to major players) and sticks (threat to shut down Gazprom exports to them in the winter and let the people freeze to death). Hoi polloi flipped out over this and are protesting strenuously. Policritters cracking down by passing a bevy of new laws, but appear nervous to escalate (see all the cops catching a molotov to the face and no aggressive response). The area's hardy Viking stock is apparent when the rioters build a trebuchet and beat cops with a chain. Seeing some reports of deaths, may escalate to full on low level civil war if this keeps up.
Ukraine is Russia's breadbasket, its access to the Black Sea, and has a large number of vital petro pipelines running through it. I'd be willing to bet they roll the tanks before letting it break away. I wonder if there will be a significant terrorist actions at Sochi "originating from the Ukraine" wink wink that will be used as a pretext to "secure the area" nudge nudge.
Trebuchet in action vs the cops: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=APGnKRx67kI
Cops on fire: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=911_1390295593
Whip it. Whip it good.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.dailymail.co.uk%2Fi%2Fpix%2F2013%2F12%2F02%2Farticle-2516473-19C28F8E00000578-73_964x566.jpg&hash=ecfa3e837c58cb358b23660c95cfd8d403f46fc3)
Pepperspraying, these cops are doin it rong.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.dailymail.co.uk%2Fi%2Fpix%2F2012%2F07%2F05%2Farticle-2168809-13EB5E1C000005DC-886_634x435.jpg&hash=b7758eeb9af7f5ec73612ae131afdb6d98fef30f)
The divide in graphic format:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F9bYriC3.jpg&hash=4466157d98e91313268c47897f4ab20b0c6b6bd5)
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FAT0G2XJ.jpg&hash=15006af7a17f9f98ae0da439852dc48ffd143431)
Photoblog: http://instagram.com/euromaidan
Livestreams of the action:
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/euromajdan/pop-out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrZcAsPKK74&feature=share
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UT86BH2LVUU&feature=share
TL:DR Ukrainian politicians are hot.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2F5%2F52%2FYulia_Tymoshenko_November_2009-3cropped.jpg&hash=3ac0a498b898a83cc0c5adfbec0952f6cbe26744)
-
Looks like both sides are getting a bit more froggy, but still mainly picking off anyone who strays too far from a group not massed combat. Note the cop who jams some type of pump shotgun with a folding stock (less lethal rounds one presumes).
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=509_1390416089
-
Apparently Lithuania and Belarus, Poland are getting antsy with one another in a three way spat as well.
Considering the NATO membership and EU entanglements of some of the parties, it could get interesting.
The people saying this is like the prelude of WWI tensions back in the early 1900's aren't looking as tin-foily to me as they did a year ago.
-
I had to close the cover of my laptop to make sure it hadn't morphed into the last Tom Clancy book. I swear this is almost exactly what the book was based on....
-
Widespread kidnapping of opposition leaders and journos sympathetic to the cause. At least one was tortured and turned up dead. At least 6 protestors have lost eyes after the cops began firing the rubber less lethal loads at their faces. Allegations that the cops were hiring titushkis (local term for paid muscle used in a political way) to infiltrate and assault the protests in the rear appear to be confirmed. Temporary cease fire is in effect, we'll see how that works out. Fed.gov is moving tanks into place, but claims it's "just routine" and nothing to do with the riots. un-huh, sure.
-
Blows my mind that none of this is on Drudge. Instead we have Bieber, and zOMG winter is cold.
-
Gotta say: They building of siege engines would have me worried if I were in the government. That is not the action of a group likely to be appeased and dispersed easily.
-
Cops stopped a bus full of protesters, bound them in their seats, then flashbanged the crap out of them and walked away. Several reported fatalities from that which seemed really odd as flashbangs rarely kill even in enclosed spaces. But it looks like some of the security forces are taping bolts etc to their flashbangs to make improvised frags.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BeqtujdCUAA7jXM.jpg)
Seen a lot of shots of priests working both sides of the line, I suppose they're Eastern Orthodox? Don't know enough to tell from the vestments. Pretty darn brave.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpbs.twimg.com%2Fmedia%2FBeqLFL1IQAAMv71.jpg&hash=cc8704b66dd1e989b32e83393641ec1d93b772f1)
Propaganda video, some excellent footage although the jump cuts are annoying. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=xZUzfzTLD4U
Oh, and while Kiev literally burns, the major news outletes are all about... Justin Bieber getting a DUI. :facepalm: Lotta Ukrainians who are monitoring the Western media outlets are pissed. I don't blame them.
-
Looks like both sides are getting a bit more froggy, but still mainly picking off anyone who strays too far from a group not massed combat. Note the cop who jams some type of pump shotgun with a folding stock (less lethal rounds one presumes).
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=509_1390416089
Riot cops seem to have a healthy respect for the power of the angry mob.
It would behoove the mob to make an effort to have a uniform, though it's damned cold to be able to pull that off. Part of what makes riot cops so intimidating is the uniformity and soldier-like appearance of them.
Cops stopped a bus full of protesters, bound them in their seats, then flashbanged the crap out of them and walked away. Several reported fatalities from that which seemed really odd as flashbangs rarely kill even in enclosed spaces. But it looks like some of the security forces are taping bolts etc to their flashbangs to make improvised frags.
That's escalation. Pretty nasty. It'll probably get reciprocated.
Gotta say: They building of siege engines would have me worried if I were in the government. That is not the action of a group likely to be appeased and dispersed easily.
No kidding! Those will become more sophisticated as this drags on. It'll morph into low yield IEDs, I bet.
Oh, and while Kiev literally burns, the major news outletes are all about... Justin Bieber getting a DUI. :facepalm: Lotta Ukrainians who are monitoring the Western media outlets are pissed. I don't blame them.
:'(
-
At least one photo I've seen of a protester aiming a revolver at the security forces. One journo reported he had seen 5-6 people with guns, mostly pistols but one Kalashnikov. Both sides are trying to blame the other for all escalations, agent provocateurs and false flag ops. Some of the clashes are pretty intense, seen some of the rioters using hammers and crowbars as well as shields they took off of cops.
-
Lots of backward cop vs protestor action:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi238.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fff299%2Ftrebligb%2Fukraine_zpse2c9ea86.jpg&hash=51135da6e2b97578615c3bf31fdf49d68b8ee385)
-
Yeah, the cops are not playing nice. There's a video I won't link to here of a guy who, after he was detained, was stripped naked (in -10C weather) and paraded around so the cops could pose next to him for pictures. Just in the 2 min video he was repeatedly hit and kicked. And there are confirmed reports of more serious torture of detained or kidnapped folks, including one kid who got sodomized with a knife. Apparently the cops wanted to one up NM PD.
-
Orthodox priests really put their money where their mouth is.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BesESOiCQAA-TeL.jpg:large)
-
At least one photo I've seen of a protester aiming a revolver at the security forces. One journo reported he had seen 5-6 people with guns, mostly pistols but one Kalashnikov. Both sides are trying to blame the other for all escalations, agent provocateurs and false flag ops. Some of the clashes are pretty intense, seen some of the rioters using hammers and crowbars as well as shields they took off of cops.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffiles.sharenator.com%2F03-s991x612-416865-580.jpg&hash=8086f282c723f99b4cd9fad0379b9375cc6c5754)
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffiles.sharenator.com%2F8893587-original-s1100x814-416901-580.jpg&hash=99c7edb859f99b3bd941b2859cc6a03d7393f48c)
Weaponizing estes rockets:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffiles.sharenator.com%2F8893890-original-s1100x697-416899-580.jpg&hash=39a9d25e47c6428d407251a1db2605b98ca46c6e)
The return of the squire in combat:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffiles.sharenator.com%2F36-s915x610-416891-580.jpg&hash=8960d7cbee13e553097d7f0651dfc063ae37c640)
Evidently medieval armor is riot haute couture:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffiles.sharenator.com%2F00s-s1100x733-416863-580.jpg&hash=b95ff9f6fe9bbd5e294d7521c79110b10f5fa8cd)
-
When Breitbart left Drudge the DR quality sank and has not rebounded.
-
All the SCA LARPer types must be so happy right now... "The day I've been training for has come. Bring me my great helm and flail!!!!"
-
All the SCA LARPer types must be so happy right now... "The day I've been training for has come. Bring me my great helm and flail!!!!"
Works well till the opposition brings out Mr. Kalashnikov's Famous Invention.
-
Works well till the opposition brings out Mr. Kalashnikov's Famous Invention.
If the cops didn't open fire when they were getting a face full of molotov I doubt some ass whooping would change their mind. One thing about Europeans is they know first hand what waging a war (civil or otherwise) in your own country looks like. Neither side wants that. People start shooting on a widespread basis and things will get out of hand quickly.
-
Fear not!!! Unlike Benghazi, Hillary is closely monitoring the situation. Since Rodman just went to North Korea, it's either Jimmy Carter's or Jesse Jackson's turn to be the face of American Diplomacy. ;/ ;/ =D =D
-
If the cops didn't open fire when they were getting a face full of molotov I doubt some ass whooping would change their mind. One thing about Europeans is they know first hand what waging a war (civil or otherwise) in your own country looks like. Neither side wants that. People start shooting on a widespread basis and things will get out of hand quickly.
Yup. After all, the 'Boston Massacre' helped galvanize anti-British sentiments in the colonies (despite the soldiers being right to fire). Some bruises and cuts on the riot cops are small price to pay to avoid the kind of 'fun' they recently had in Kyrgyzstan.
-
Fear not!!! Unlike Benghazi, Hillary is closely monitoring the situation. Since Rodman just went to North Korea, it's either Jimmy Carter's or Jesse Jackson's turn to be the face of American Diplomacy. ;/ ;/ =D =D
Nope. He's back and checked into rehab.
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/10315522/dennis-rodman-checks-rehab-center-treat-struggle-alcoholism (http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/10315522/dennis-rodman-checks-rehab-center-treat-struggle-alcoholism)
-
Nope. He's back and checked into rehab.
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/10315522/dennis-rodman-checks-rehab-center-treat-struggle-alcoholism (http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/10315522/dennis-rodman-checks-rehab-center-treat-struggle-alcoholism)
He should have asked his good buddy over in N. Korea to help him out. Throw him in a prison camp for a few months would make him sober.
-
If the cops didn't open fire when they were getting a face full of molotov I doubt some ass whooping would change their mind. One thing about Europeans is they know first hand what waging a war (civil or otherwise) in your own country looks like. Neither side wants that. People start shooting on a widespread basis and things will get out of hand quickly.
somehow I never had you figured for an optimist. LOL.
-
People would never get away with that challenge to authoritah here in the West.
-
http://merera.livejournal.com/295325.html
Police are firing experimental solid brass turned projectile 12ga slugs at the crowd. These are extremely unique door breaching rounds that are made by only 1 company and directly affiliated with Kiev law enforcement.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi271.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj126%2Fmerera%2Flivejournal%2Fblondo_collage.jpg&hash=4fd37524434b94850afb4ceba3978e0215d60468)
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi271.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj126%2Fmerera%2Flivejournal%2Fblondeau_d3_1390483255-4756127cf7444e71b405d14c71db9002_600.jpg&hash=995096df46d9ac92ac7a9dc5cb2efe628612944c)
-
Background on the protestors and what has been going on in Ukraine for months.
http://www.businessinsider.com/understanding-euromaidan-2014-1
-
http://merera.livejournal.com/295325.html
Police are firing experimental solid brass turned projectile 12ga slugs at the crowd. These are extremely unique door breaching rounds that are made by only 1 company and directly affiliated with Kiev law enforcement.
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj126/merera/livejournal/blondo_collage.jpg (http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj126/merera/livejournal/blondo_collage.jpg)
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj126/merera/livejournal/blondeau_d3_1390483255-4756127cf7444e71b405d14c71db9002_600.jpg (http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj126/merera/livejournal/blondeau_d3_1390483255-4756127cf7444e71b405d14c71db9002_600.jpg)
That'll do it.
-
Background on the protestors and what has been going on in Ukraine for months.
http://www.businessinsider.com/understanding-euromaidan-2014-1
Interesting. I'll want to read that over closely later. lessons to be learned.
-
http://merera.livejournal.com/295325.html
Police are firing experimental solid brass turned projectile 12ga slugs at the crowd. These are extremely unique door breaching rounds that are made by only 1 company and directly affiliated with Kiev law enforcement.
Likely a mistake. Door breacher rounds ain't cheap or plentiful. I'd bet money on the a cop loading the wrong ammo.
Tin foil version, zOMG, false flag ninja totally replaced less lethal rounds in cop locker with more lethal rounds to starts revolution, TOTALLY making it SEEM like law enforcement slipup! 9/11 is a lie! Long form birth certificate! Awaken, sheeple!
-
What is there to explain? I think that some cops just really, really want to hurt protestors and have taken it upon themselves to use any available "things" that will break skin.
It might be easier to procure these than 00 buck from the ammo storage room. Maybe filed under "specialty rounds" just like rubber bullets might.
-
Time for the Cossacks to mount up?
-
Lots of great pictures here. http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?234849-Uprising-in-Ukraine-(Photos-and-Videos)
-
The quality of that photography is amazing.
I was struck by something else. Does Ukraine have a National Service system? A lot of the protesters, the younger males, anyway, seem to carry themselves as if they have military training.
-
Observations:
1. Not just the callow youths in the opposition shield wall. I saw some frosty old bastards and plenty of middle-aged men.
2. Looks like the Army / military is sitting it out. Were they not, the opposition's guts would be greasing tank treads.
3. Opposition needs to get its head out of its ass and make a power-sharing arrangement/alliance. They can not sustain pressure the way gov't bureaucrats who are getting paid to bust heads can.
-
Background on the protestors and what has been going on in Ukraine for months.
http://www.businessinsider.com/understanding-euromaidan-2014-1
read this and look for similarities to the US- it is uncanny.
-
read this and look for similarities to the US- it is uncanny.
I'm glad I wasn't the only one who thought that.
Take the time to mash the link, it's a good/scary read.
-
...And drudge FINALLY links to a story on this.
http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-protesters-create-39-fortress-39-resist-feared-200947661.html;_ylt=A2KJ3CWD0OJSz2MAkUvQtDMD
-
Weaponizing estes rockets:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffiles.sharenator.com%2F8893890-original-s1100x697-416899-580.jpg&hash=39a9d25e47c6428d407251a1db2605b98ca46c6e)
Its a big bottle rocket.
http://www.fireworks.com/products/item/display-shell-rockets-o-123/
-
-D motor, duct tape, and a hunting arrow get you about 400 yards downrange when launched from a piece of angle. My misspent youth.
-
http://merera.livejournal.com/295325.html
Police are firing experimental solid brass turned projectile 12ga slugs at the crowd. These are extremely unique door breaching rounds that are made by only 1 company and directly affiliated with Kiev law enforcement.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi271.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj126%2Fmerera%2Flivejournal%2Fblondo_collage.jpg&hash=4fd37524434b94850afb4ceba3978e0215d60468)
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi271.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj126%2Fmerera%2Flivejournal%2Fblondeau_d3_1390483255-4756127cf7444e71b405d14c71db9002_600.jpg&hash=995096df46d9ac92ac7a9dc5cb2efe628612944c)
Ummm, B&P is an Italian company that makes high end target loads for shotguns.
I think I'll go with RevDisk on this.
-
The quality of that photography is amazing.
I was struck by something else. Does Ukraine have a National Service system? A lot of the protesters, the younger males, anyway, seem to carry themselves as if they have military training.
Obviously the riot police are definitely highly trained and disciplined:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi847.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fab39%2FRunnin_Wolf%2Ffatriotcop.jpg&hash=222042a61b8347b2bc9896f2069d07445cdf97ab) (http://s847.photobucket.com/user/Runnin_Wolf/media/fatriotcop.jpg.html)
-
Looks like Skunk, the "Light 'em on fire" cop from The Message.
-
I saw him in Spaceballs!
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flix66.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F08%2Fspaceballs3.jpg&hash=28c5da3ae07a71a508cecdfc5abd4c04ab5e7e90)
-
Seen a lot of shots of priests working both sides of the line, I suppose they're Eastern Orthodox? Don't know enough to tell from the vestments. Pretty darn brave.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpbs.twimg.com%2Fmedia%2FBeqLFL1IQAAMv71.jpg&hash=cc8704b66dd1e989b32e83393641ec1d93b772f1)
Propaganda video, some excellent footage although the jump cuts are annoying. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=xZUzfzTLD4U
According to http://issuesetc.org/2014/01/27/2-media-coverage-of-the-ukrainian-protests-george-conger-12714/ (http://issuesetc.org/2014/01/27/2-media-coverage-of-the-ukrainian-protests-george-conger-12714/), there are two Orthodox Churches in Ukraine. There's a Ukrainain based nationalist one, and there's on that follows the Moscow Patriarch. Stalin killed a lot of priests, and burned the Ukrainian cathedral, and mashed what was left together. Fast forward a bunch of decades. Once the commie regime went away they split apart again. Which one you like depends on who you are. This is why you see priests on both sides.
Spelling errors due to overcaffeination.
-
Likely a mistake. Door breacher rounds ain't cheap or plentiful. I'd bet money on the a cop loading the wrong ammo.
Tin foil version, zOMG, false flag ninja totally replaced less lethal rounds in cop locker with more lethal rounds to starts revolution, TOTALLY making it SEEM like law enforcement slipup! 9/11 is a lie! Long form birth certificate! Awaken, sheeple!
Or possibility #3, the .gov and police chain of command locked up the ammunition leaving only the less-lethals, but because they're not "anti-personnel" the door breachers were overlooked and not rounded up. So in the same vein as the National Guardsman in American riots who are sent into what is potentially harms way without ammunition keeping a few spare live rounds in a uniform shirt pocket, the police had a few of these with them.
Then... instead of being in danger, they percieve they're in danger, or they just get pissed off enough..
-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jW1WDbDX7wE&feature=youtu.be
Very interesting at 1:55.
Sounds like the US is attempting to manipulate the Ukraine situation. They're supporting the rioters.
-
At the risk of additional thread-drift... Jen Psaki is rather hawt.
-
At the risk of additional thread-drift... Jen Psaki is rather hawt.
Uh... No. Might be very good at her job, but does not seem to be visually attractive. At all.
-
At the risk of additional thread-drift... Jen Psaki is rather hawt.
To each his own.
-
At the risk of additional thread-drift... Jen Psaki is rather hawt.
She looks like a scared rabbit.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fb%2Fb2%2FOfficial_photo_of_Jen_Psaki.jpg&hash=ae9ee3b8d0ee488912c1b5f695e45ec9f14d1540)
-
She looks like a scared rabbit.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fb%2Fb2%2FOfficial_photo_of_Jen_Psaki.jpg&hash=ae9ee3b8d0ee488912c1b5f695e45ec9f14d1540)
Relative to most American female policritters she is above average. And I don't mean just old American female policritters. Most of ours started off coyote ugly. A middling example was Bella Abzug. Google if you dare. Even her political portrait soft focus shots could curdle milk.
-
She looks like a scared rabbit.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fb%2Fb2%2FOfficial_photo_of_Jen_Psaki.jpg&hash=ae9ee3b8d0ee488912c1b5f695e45ec9f14d1540)
Not bad except someone should tell her that yellow doesn't look good on red heads ;/
-
Not bad except someone should tell her that yellow doesn't look good on red heads ;/
Or she should have stayed her nature brunette color.
-
She cleans up very well.
http://images.rcp.realclearpolitics.com/153064_5_.jpg
And she's much more attractive in video talking etc. than she photographs. What might be coming out of her mouth is generally :P of course.
The whole "I iz seryous professhinal femynst fed.gov wymn" no makeup shtick is part of it too, when one compares her to various models and starlets caught in tabloids without makeup in sweatpants going to Starbucks or whatever.
-
She looks like a scared rabbit.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fb%2Fb2%2FOfficial_photo_of_Jen_Psaki.jpg&hash=ae9ee3b8d0ee488912c1b5f695e45ec9f14d1540)
A "Gillian Anderson as Agent Scully" knockoff.
It's this part that actually bothers me most:
Throughout the 2008 presidential campaign of U.S. Senator Barack Obama, Psaki served as traveling press secretary.[3] After Obama won the election, Psaki followed Obama to the White House as Deputy Press Secretary and was promoted to Deputy Communications Director on December 19, 2009.[4][5] Psaki left that position on September 22, 2011 to become senior vice president and managing director at the Washington, D. C. office of public relations firm Global Strategy Group.[6][7]
In 2012, Psaki returned to political communications as press secretary for President Obama's 2012 re-election campaign.[8] On February 11, 2013, Psaki became spokesperson for the United States Department of State.[8] Her hiring at the Department of State has fueled speculation that she is likely to replace White House Press Secretary Jay Carney when he leaves the White House.[9]
A willing part of the 0. administration.
-
A "Gillian Anderson as Agent Scully" knockoff. ........
Hmmmm. I also thought she looked a lot like Agent Dana Scully. :cool:
-
Hmmmm. I also thought she looked a lot like Agent Dana Scully. :cool:
Ya, but nothing beats the original.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic1.wikia.nocookie.net%2F__cb20120717023403%2Fx-files%2Fimages%2F8%2F8c%2FGillian_Anderson_Scully.jpg&hash=08062f0b634784f18aa45124738ce15baa426149)
-
Back to the Ukraine pics. The one with the photog guy with colander on his head would be funny if it were not so serious bidness.
-
Serious crackdown, around 10 folks dead 100 injured, numbers likely to go up. Heavy fighting between cops and protesters. http://www.kyivpost.com/content/kyiv/renewed-violence-breaks-out-today-near-ukraines-parliament-at-least-one-injured-336993.html
-
Graphic video of some folks getting their heads caved in once they're on the ground. Don't get isolated from your buddies or bad things happen. No way to know for sure but I'd say two of those cops are not alive anymore. Note the balaclava dude dragging the cop's body off, and at least one non-gov guy with what looked like a double bitted axe. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=fec_1392732158
-
Ya, but nothing beats the original.
http://static1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120717023403/x-files/images/8/8c/Gillian_Anderson_Scully.jpg
She quit dying her hair is back to being a brunette, then now a blonde.
-
Tanks are rolling in on their own power now, not on rail cars. APC's used in the big Berkut offensive, BTR-70's maybe? Not up on my armor id anymore.
Edit: pic may be faked, reports on tanks in use are not verified. But the BTR's are definitely in use and on the livestreams.
-
That'll leave a mark.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BgxxMzKCEAABcj_.jpg:large)
-
A moving BTR getting ambushed with molotovs. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=d41cRqLkCk4
-
At least one guy with a real gun and live ammo, cops in retreat, and several more isolated pulled down beaten insensate and stripped of their gear. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2q4TaZyKv3Y
-
Protesters are getting smart, had a pretty girl who speaks English well narrating a propaganda video. My respect for their competence is growing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hvds2AIiWLA
-
A moving BTR getting ambushed with molotovs. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=d41cRqLkCk4
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Frevdisk.org%2Fstorage%2Fe31.jpg&hash=f93a2d8077eeceee5c0a7e7fc2a511b6017d121a)
-
Protesters are getting smart, had a pretty girl who speaks English well narrating a propaganda video. My respect for their competence is growing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hvds2AIiWLA
Very well done propaganda. Cute chick, all the right phrases (freedom, oversimplification of the issues), carefully selected shots of poor innocent bystanders being beaten (no shots of bystanders beating police to death), etc. Only thing missing is dead kids or barring that, a carefully positioned stuffed animal left in the middle of some carnage.
Not saying I disagree with the protestors, just admiring decent skill.
-
Very well done propaganda. Cute chick, all the right phrases (freedom, oversimplification of the issues), carefully selected shots of poor innocent bystanders being beaten (no shots of bystanders beating police to death), etc. Only thing missing is dead kids or barring that, a carefully positioned stuffed animal left in the middle of some carnage.
Not saying I disagree with the protestors, just admiring decent skill.
Ayup. Everyone does propaganda, good guys and bad. Much respect for those who do it well.
-
Ayup. Everyone does propaganda, good guys and bad. Much respect for those who do it well.
The REALLY interesting part will be whose propaganda requires jumping through hoops on Youtube/Google to view the content. Then you know what side the powers that be want you to be most exposed to.
-
Very well done propaganda. Cute chick, all the right phrases (freedom, oversimplification of the issues), carefully selected shots of poor innocent bystanders being beaten (no shots of bystanders beating police to death), etc. Only thing missing is dead kids or barring that, a carefully positioned stuffed animal left in the middle of some carnage.
Not saying I disagree with the protestors, just admiring decent skill.
Isn't the CIA behind these revolts ??? =|
-
What a hell of a mess. =|
-
What a hell of a mess. =|
I'm very glad I live in the US, no matter how unhappy I am with our political climate.
-
The sun rises, the fires are still burning, and apparently, some of the rioters have knocked over a small military compound.
Some of them may have acquired automatic weapons and RPGs, but none have appeared yet on the videos/photos.
-
Some wounded cops (not Berkut) were turned over for treatment. Surprised they're still alive. On the other hand, in at least one city the local cops have officially joined the protesters.
-
I'm very glad I live in the US, no matter how unhappy I am with our political climate.
Me too, I wish I believed it was going to stay like this- but I think it is going to get worse beyond our imagining. Usually when things get bad the big bosses blame an external enemy or start a war- this crowd is gonna blame an internal enemy.
-
http://rt.com/news/weapons-protesters-kiev-police-745/
Rioters have obtained 1500 firearms and 100k rounds of ammo recently.
Link has a couple pics of one of the "firearms" which really looks like an air rifle, to me. Barrel appears too thin even to be a .22LR.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.rt.com%2Ffiles%2Fnews%2F22%2F9b%2F10%2F00%2Frtx191vn.si.jpg&hash=367be8bda52d3aa9fdcdc8cf424d672b9d2ec830)
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Frt.com%2Ffiles%2Fnews%2F22%2F9b%2F10%2F00%2Frtx192p5.jpg&hash=a63329569f7e1ddebf5d7f725ffd86236ac42e45)
-
http://rt.com/news/weapons-protesters-kiev-police-745/
Rioters have obtained 1500 firearms and 100k rounds of ammo recently.
Link has a couple pics of one of the "firearms" which really looks like an air rifle, to me. Barrel appears too thin even to be a .22LR.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.rt.com%2Ffiles%2Fnews%2F22%2F9b%2F10%2F00%2Frtx191vn.si.jpg&hash=367be8bda52d3aa9fdcdc8cf424d672b9d2ec830)
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Frt.com%2Ffiles%2Fnews%2F22%2F9b%2F10%2F00%2Frtx192p5.jpg&hash=a63329569f7e1ddebf5d7f725ffd86236ac42e45)
Yeah, looks like an under-crank piston air rifle. Could be some oddball .22LR with tube mag, though.
-
Yeah, looks like an under-crank piston air rifle. Could be some oddball .22LR with tube mag, though.
It's an air rifle, I have Russian made air pistol with similar action.
-
You could put your eye out, kid!
-
You could put your eye out, kid!
Rev Jesse Jackson will probably say it can shoot down a plane and blow up trains.
(Hey Rev Jesse Jackson I hope your web bot reads this)
-
Russia Today is Putin's propaganda arm, I wouldn't take anything they say too seriously.
-
Lviv has seceded from Yanukovich's .gov and set up a pro-maidan one. Protests spreading to Odessa and Poltova. SBU (Ukraine's KGB) in Khelmnitsky shot protesters, got their building burned. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=DipJOV01Pr4 Governor of Lutsk drug into the street and beaten. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=lpw5-PYzIns
-
Zhytomyr police station burning. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=fRoGzYI2BNM
-
Yanukovich announces "truce" which as I read it is merely backing off on the crackdown of the last two nights. The opposition "leaders" are fragmented and not in control of the crowds, I don't see it lasting. http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/02/19/ukrainian-president-announces-and-protesters-have-agreed-to-truce/
-
Bloody aftermath. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a51_1392842183
-
They started wide scale shooting of protesters. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0DxkDiAcSF8
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bg6S-YZCUAA6qRL.jpg:large)
-
Some of those killed in a morgue.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bg62gBTCcAEgDn-.jpg:large
-
Cops throwing molotovs at protesters.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kyivpost.com%2Fmedia%2Fimages%2F2014%2F02%2F20%2Fp18h7osmel1ffqsk2gka56porr4%2Ftop.jpg&hash=905776fc8a8e4697404b8b0bddc87e8efe15636d)
More cops shooting people. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=T6IbEIBhb8o
-
One of those reported killed by police fire, a young medic.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bg62mmpCYAAIA1l.jpg)
-
http://rt.com/news/weapons-protesters-kiev-police-745/
Rioters have obtained 1500 firearms and 100k rounds of ammo recently.
Link has a couple pics of one of the "firearms" which really looks like an air rifle, to me. Barrel appears too thin even to be a .22LR.
http://cdn.rt.com/files/news/22/9b/10/00/rtx191vn.si.jpg (http://cdn.rt.com/files/news/22/9b/10/00/rtx191vn.si.jpg)
http://rt.com/files/news/22/9b/10/00/rtx192p5.jpg (http://rt.com/files/news/22/9b/10/00/rtx192p5.jpg)
Yup. Cheap Chinese underlever cocking spring piston gun. I had one like it once.
-
Village blocks access to one border crossing into Poland. http://www.euronews.com/2014/02/19/ukraine-protests-spread-to-polish-border/
-
Ukie version of the NRA is calling gun owners to arms. !!!
http://zbroya.info/ru/blog/2655_obrashchenie-k-vladeltsam-oruzhiia/
Gun owners .
We know that you are the most reasonable and responsible part of Ukrainian society , which is still not involved in the confrontation .
But, unfortunately , the conflict entered into armed .
Control of the situation actually lost.
Now each of us has a personal responsibility for their own safety and that of his family, and at such a difficult time and the safety of their fellow countrymen.
Weapon in the hands of responsible citizens at all times was the best peacemaker.
We urge you to act according to his own beliefs and universal moral values ??and , if necessary , to give a rebuff to criminals . The rest rely on your judgment and responsibility.
Ukrainian Association of gun owners .
P.S. On coordination in the field - please contact : info@zbroya.info
-
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bg78GI9CMAAml78.jpg:large)
-
Lot of good pictures. http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/ukraine-crisis-shocking-photos-injured-dead-kiev-1437260
-
From a couple hours ago.
"Steve Rosenberg @BBCSteveR
Armed protestors (pistols, crowbars and baseball bats) are searching rooms in our hotel, looking for snipers"
-
Parliament has voted that all troops cease fire and leave the capitol, and ordered police to cease firing on protesters. Let's see if they listen to Parliament or Yanukovich.
-
if the troops and cops decide its time to really not play nice it will get really ugly really fast. and while numbers are nice the quality/quantity of arms may prove more than the protesters bargained for. best hope is enough troops and cops switch sides
-
if the troops and cops decide its time to really not play nice it will get really ugly really fast. and while numbers are nice the quality/quantity of arms may prove more than the protesters bargained for. best hope is enough troops and cops switch sides
It was my understanding that Army & Police were not participating and that it was some sort of special internal security force battling the protesters. I could be wrong, of course, but I would think that...
Army + Police = Rousted Protesters
...even if Army & Police were armed with nothing more than sticks.
-
if the troops and cops decide its time to really not play nice it will get really ugly really fast. and while numbers are nice the quality/quantity of arms may prove more than the protesters bargained for. best hope is enough troops and cops switch sides
Problem with mowing down the protestors is it will drive the moderates to pick sides. I don't like the OWS crowds. Most of the folks here don't like the OWS folks. But if troops and cops started mowing them down in job lots for daring to question the government... I have a feeling most of us would not take kindly to such things.
Taking off the gloves is fine, if you have the guts to go the whole way and enough indoctrinated cadre to enforce your will.
If you bluff and folks call it, you have an actual civil war.
If you bluff and REALLY fumble it, you have NATO and Russia fighting a hot war on your turf.
I think even the corrupt politicians know that Russia wants to regain control of the Ukraine. If it becomes bad enough that significant Russian forces are needed to hold power, said Russians are not likely to leave at the end of the war.
-
If they are picking em off with snipers I think they raised the stakes. And has russia changed so much that the army is off the table?
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk
-
If they are picking em off with snipers I think they raised the stakes. And has russia changed so much that the army is off the table?
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk
Rumor is that a thousand ish Spetznaz landed at Boryspil and Zhulyany and are now wearing Berkut uniforms. It's unconfirmed.
There's also Sevastopol, home of the Russian Black Sea Fleet. North of 20k Russian sailors and Marines. This is one of the issues of contention. Russia is selling the Ukrainians gas at expensive rates. The 2009 treaty had very unfavourable terms for Ukraine, which the 2010 Kharkiv Pact did not completely deal with. The deal was a discount on the gas in exchange for a 25 year lease of Sevastopol. A lot of Sevastopol residents consider themselves Russians, and want to be Russian territory.
-
And I am reading they have 60 plus cops prisoner. Thats a mixed bag. Yes it MIGHT give you leverage but you need to take good care of em. And the mob has a certain burn baby burn element. If the hard liners can even claim that the prisoners are being hurt they can turn up the heat real high. Never been afraid of killing their own. Similar to the chinese.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk
-
A lot of Sevastopol residents consider themselves Russians, and want to be Russian territory.
Gee, doesn't that sound familiar...
-
RD, does the Ukraine military have its own Spetsnaz force, or does this mean that the Russian military has deployed special forces?
-
And I am reading they have 60 plus cops prisoner. Thats a mixed bag. Yes it MIGHT give you leverage but you need to take good care of em. And the mob has a certain burn baby burn element. If the hard liners can even claim that the prisoners are being hurt they can turn up the heat real high. Never been afraid of killing their own. Similar to the chinese.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk
A number of cops have been returned after being captured. Not exactly unhurt, but not apparently mistreated after capture. Those are regular black uniform cops though, not Berkut or Titushky. Afaik there are only about 4000 Berkut total in the country?
RD, does the Ukraine military have its own Spetsnaz force, or does this mean that the Russian military has deployed special forces?
My understanding is that they (the Ukies) are using the term the way we use SWAT: a generic upscale version of the state security forces not a specific unit.
-
As far as I can tell this is a factual report with some questionable spin re morale levels.
20.40 Information from the General Staff of the Armed Forces of Ukraine: "Uniformed troops - 1,500 paratroopers, 400 marines and special forces - are heading to Kyiv. They have been subordinatied to the SBU (Ukrainian Security Service) to conduct anti-terrorist operations. There will be a clearing [of the Maidan] rather soon. Officers, ensigns and contracted men. Moral is low. Seventy percent of them do not want to fight against the people. "
P.S. This refers to the 25th Airborne Brigade, the 1st Brigade of Marines, the 831 anti-insurgency squad, and 73rd nautical centre special purpose
-
I love how this is "anti-terrorist" when it's obviously a democratic uprising. :rofl:
Not that democracy is anything to aspire to...
-
Folks on both sides getting killed. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=m-2jElHvFCA
-
Defection en masse. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=SKcG11a5HxI
-
Before and after.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bg7eXdyCAAA9HNQ.jpg:large)
-
Parliament is scared. These passed either unopposed or with around %99 support, including 30+ members of Yanukovich's party. Many legislators have fled however, not sure if this is a quorum.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.tinypic.com%2Fhrbp07.jpg&hash=c3a9945f1f3483c24c4e885001aba7721a7472b8)
-
Priests are working over time.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.theatlantic.com%2Fstatic%2Finfocus%2Fkiev022014%2Fs_k17_RTX1961Z.jpg&hash=12a7186fc88e93d2e0596f557c0a7e9c8dc67f37)
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.theatlantic.com%2Fstatic%2Finfocus%2Fkiev022014%2Fs_k32_RTX196FS.jpg&hash=120b1929ca0306c9933a892dd6ac077c463025d4)
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.theatlantic.com%2Fstatic%2Finfocus%2Fkiev022014%2Fs_k01_70616745.jpg&hash=ab08104f4000c20f9af9d316bd7d43ae2085377d)
-
Defection en masse. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=SKcG11a5HxI
Translation?
All I heard, was:
From this moment on... There will be no further reprisals against civilians. This was stupid. Impotence. Comrades... If a fox stole your chickens... Would you slaughter your pig because he saw the fox? No. You would hunt the fox... You would find where it lives and destroy it! And how do we do this? Become a fox.
-
Defection en masse. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=SKcG11a5HxI
anyone translate?
-
One of those reported killed by police fire, a young medic.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bg62mmpCYAAIA1l.jpg)
Confirmed she was shot. Guess the big red cross makes a good target.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bg60qhSIUAAMYQs.jpg)
-
Per Christopher Miller, a known entity as an on the ground reporter in Kyiv, these were discovered in the October Palace after the SBU abandoned it. IED parts, which given that they were strapping bolts to flash bangs weeks ago is not that surprising.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bg8_eIjIAAAVLwF.jpg:large)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bg8_xmiIMAAAI3p.jpg:large)
-
Translation?
All I heard, was:
Best I can find, not sure if accurate.
Believe they're chanting "militia" and "the police are with the people."
-
Sign on the right (reportedly) reads "Sign up for self defense."
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.tinypic.com%2F348q1hz.jpg&hash=b7ab9fd9dbd74eace953f4d01285ae36a1eec53d)
-
Excellent video from 18 Feb of the fighting.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=58b_1392877307
-
Sauce for the cops making (more) IED's.
https://twitter.com/ChristopherJM/with_replies
-
Picked this up off of Matt Bracken's FB page.
(https://scontent-b-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/t1/1779726_736806129672163_1811910740_n.jpg)
-
Problem with mowing down the protestors is it will drive the moderates to pick sides. I don't like the OWS crowds. Most of the folks here don't like the OWS folks. But if troops and cops started mowing them down in job lots for daring to question the government... I have a feeling most of us would not take kindly to such things.
And if the government forces step it up, and lose, they are in really deep doo. Remember what happened in Romania 1989? The Army turned on the police in concert with the civilians- no quarter.
-
Yeah, civil wars are the ugliest. The gloves come off. :'( :'(
-
An explanation in depth of the vote today.
"Today, after the morning massacres had calmed down a little, opposition politicians began calling for MP's to gather in Parliament at 3pm. Deputy Lyashko and others pronounced guarantees to Party of Regions MP's that no demonstrations would be held near the building during this special session - apparently some government MP's had expressed concern for their own safety in the wake of that morning's violence and deaths.
The session did not start until around 5pm, and MPs gathered very gradually. Initially, only 227 registered (minimum quorum: 226), but as the evening wore on, more and more MP's from the Party of Regions and nominal independents arrived. By 10pm, 238 had registered to vote.
The key test came just after 10pm when the speeches ceased and a draft document was put to a vote. In the end 236 voted in favor of the "Postanova" that orders the following:
1. All Interior Ministry troops currently in Kyiv are ordered to cease fire and return to barracks.
2. All live ammunition and lethal weapons that have been issued to government forces are to be returned immediately.
3. Blocking roads and rail lines for the purpose of limiting the movement of people is to cease.
4. All anti terrorist operations currently undertaken by the State Security Service and Interior Ministry are to be stopped immediately.
5. Circumstances that have led to deaths and casualties are to be investigated and the guilty brought to trial forthwith by the Prosecutor General.
6. The Cabinet of Ministers is ordered to provide financial compensation to all victims of the recent violence and their families.
7. Activists arrested for their participation in protests are to be released and all criminal cases against them closed.
8. It is now the exclusive right of parliament to declare a state of emergency.
All of the above was passed as a "Postanova" - a one time legislative order that has the force of law, but according to Ukraine's Constitution, and unlike other laws, need not be signed by the President. Postanova's are signed by the Chairman/Speaker of the Parliament, or in his absence, by one of his Deputies. Tonight's session of Parliament was chaired by Svoboda MP Koshulynsky, and he has signed the document making it legal.
Two points of significance:
1) Parliamentary Speaker Rybak and First Deputy Speaker Kaletnyk (Communist Party) were not present at tonight's session; neither were 167 deputies from the Party of Regions, nor any of the Communist MP's. Nevertheless, a temporary majority was assembled with all members of the 3 opposition parties and most independents in attendance together with 20+ Party of Regions MPs who have now effectively defected from the government camp. According to rumors many Party of Regions MPs left the country today - including (according to some reports) Speaker Rybak. Does this signal a permanent end to the pro-Yanukovych majority in Parliament? If so, it signifies the beginning of the end of his regime.
2) Although a Postanova is a legislative order that has the force of law, and cannot be vetoed by the President, it is unclear what happens if Yanukovych issues a Presidential Decree cancelling the Postanova. Furthermore, it is unclear which should take precedent: the Law on Counter-Terrorism which has been the formal document used to authorize the use of lethal force and abrogation of civil rights during the past 2 days, or the one-time Postanova. Finally is highly unclear whether Interior Ministry forces will obey this Postanova at all.
After passing their document, Ukraine's 3 opposition leaders immediately left Parliament for the Presidential Administration building where, reportedly, they were joined by 3 visiting EU foreign ministers. Apparently they will attempt to collectively convince Yanukovych to accept the need for constitutional changes - these are to be voted on tomorrow. Whether enough votes can be gathered, and whether Yanukovych will budge are all open questions...
(written by Prof. Mychailo Wynnycky, Kyiv Mohyla Academy)"
-
Confirmed she was shot. Guess the big red cross makes a good target.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bg60qhSIUAAMYQs.jpg)
Word is she survived and is going to be okay. (http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-crisis/miracle-kiev-shot-medic-survives-after-tweeting-i-am-dying-n35296)
Hopefully you can view the page. NBC websites have stopped working for me using IE11. They work okay with Firefox. From what I have read, NBC apparently "improved" the functionality of their network station websites.
-
You could put your eye out, kid!
How fast and accurate is he? Think remote detonator for a Molotov.
-
http://instagram.com/p/kptza1t4FS/
Should be clickable now. Locally made Ukraine poster.
Also, map of Lenin statues torn down in the last 24 hours.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BhB6MeaCAAAJZZR.jpg)
-
Just a little black 'x' there. What was it supposed to be, Balog?
-
So...
Yanukovich offered to hold elections a month early, in exchange for Maidan disarming and identifying themselves. That was handily shot down, and an ultimatum has been issued that if Yanu doesn't leave office the protesters will start fighting back with weapons. I'm assuming the sub-text there is "old Soviet and WWII military arms on a wide scale" instead of the handful of guys with shotguns we've seen so far.
Yanukovich fled, but has not abdicated power.
-
Entry to Zhulyany airport is blocked! All cars are being inspected! Activists have a checklist of persons who cannot leave the country.
Protesters are setting up checkpoints on entrance to Kyiv airports and other exits from the city. Just few hour ago, the Berkut arrived, but people took away their IDs and shields and let them go. Now they are making checklists to ensure that the Party of Regions members are not fleeing the country. All passengers are getting their documents checked. All cars are checked, including their trunks. In Kyiv, a real hunt on titushky, Berkut and ruling MPs is underway. All law enforcement bosses have vacated the center of the city. The streets are empty.
“We all have reached the crucial moment. We have given politicians the chance to become future ministers, presidents, and they do not want to meet our sole condition: that the ex-convict [acting president] be displaced!” said the man from the stage.“Friends, I do not want to be verbose. I do not want to engage in the same silly talks that we’ve been hearing for two and a half months. I do not trust the difficult political processes which they describe. Seventy-seven people have been killed, and they negotiate!” he added.
“I beg you: Support this suggestion. I tell you from my sotnya, where my father is with me: if by 10 a.m. tomorrow you do not demand Yanukovych’s resignation, we will go in with weapons. This I swear,” said the captain.
-
Entry to Zhulyany airport is blocked! All cars are being inspected! Activists have a checklist of persons who cannot leave the country.
Protesters are setting up checkpoints on entrance to Kyiv airports and other exits from the city. Just few hour ago, the Berkut arrived, but people took away their IDs and shields and let them go. Now they are making checklists to ensure that the Party of Regions members are not fleeing the country. All passengers are getting their documents checked. All cars are checked, including their trunks. In Kyiv, a real hunt on titushky, Berkut and ruling MPs is underway. All law enforcement bosses have vacated the center of the city. The streets are empty.
^^This is wrong.
If your enemy no longer wants to be part of your collective (such as country, state or city) then you let him go. That door swings both ways.
-
they want em dead its russia
that also cuts both ways
-
In settings other than Lord of the Rings leaving your enemies alive often does not work out well. "Yanukovich establishes government in exile in Russia, asks Putin to roll the tanks."
-
In settings other than Lord of the Rings leaving your enemies alive often does not work out well. "Yanukovich establishes government in exile in Russia, asks Putin to roll the tanks."
kill him and putin rolls in to restore order
-
kill him and putin rolls in to restore order
Jail him and Putin rolls in to restore order. Do anything other than become a Russian puppet state and Putin rolls in to restore order. About all they can do is maintain whatever legitimacy they can muster, nothing to be done to deter Putin.
I'd imagine they would jail him ala Tymoshenko.
-
Extended video of cops killing protesters. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSvj8F_Br4M&app=desktop
-
http://instagram.com/p/kptza1t4FS/
Should be clickable now. Locally made Ukraine poster.
Also, map of Lenin statues torn down in the last 24 hours.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BhB6MeaCAAAJZZR.jpg)
It has been said several times on this board that the Ukranians hate the Soviets. If that is so, why are there even any Lenin statues in existance? One would think that all would have been torn down after the collapse of the Soviet Union.
-
The ethnic Russians that were settled in the Sobiet era riot if you try to take them down.
-
More protesters getting killed.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=934_1393021284
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qSvj8F_Br4M
Watch the YouTube one starting at 12:00 or so. People keep trying to retrieve the wounded and getting shot down.
-
Yea I noticed that. Old trick and it still works
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk
-
Word is she survived and is going to be okay. (http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-crisis/miracle-kiev-shot-medic-survives-after-tweeting-i-am-dying-n35296)
Hopefully you can view the page. NBC websites have stopped working for me using IE11. They work okay with Firefox. From what I have read, NBC apparently "improved" the functionality of their network station websites.
Another update posted to the Lutheran forum I visit-
http://blogs.wels.net/missions/2014/02/21/update-from-ukraine/
-
Interesting piece on the former prime minister released from prison comments are worth looking at
http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_02_23/Some-5-000-people-gather-in-Kiev-to-protest-Timoshenko-s-return-to-politics-9484/
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk
-
More background on the gas princess
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/02/23/yulia-tymoshenko-she-s-no-angel.html
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk
-
Parsing a NYT article on what occurred to cause the Ukraine's pm to step down.
http://isteve.blogspot.com/2014/02/what-just-happened.html
When something big happens, it's useful to read articles carefully for details before a Narrative hardens.
The following article from the New York Times is a little hard to follow because it tries to tie together several Ukrainian threads with a lot of taunting of overthrown president Yanukovych for being a L-O-S-E-R. But it sure sounds like the key event in the Ukraine last week was the "seizing of an Interior Ministry armory in the western city of Lviv and the transportation of those weapons to the outskirts of Kiev, the capital."
Other interesting points about the effectiveness of large numbers of indifferently-trained men (not particularly effective) and the reliance on smaller numbers of those naturally inclined to violence.
Revdisk:
The author makes some claims about the Balkans and who did the fighting there. Does that correspond with what you learned after the fact? (Most the killing done by gangs/groups already inclined to violence and the vast majority of those under arms declining to get closely engaged with the enemy.)
More background on the gas princess
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/02/23/yulia-tymoshenko-she-s-no-angel.html
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk
Was it here or someplace else that I read that in the Ukraine, the political climate is one of, "Your corruption bad, my corruption good." FTR, Ukraine has Africa-levels of corruption.
-
Wednesday, the protestors seized an Interior Ministry armory and that night started moving weapons to Kiev.
Thursday, 80 protesters and an unknown number of riot police were killed.
Friday, the riot police that guarded Mr. Yanukovych left after he signed an agreement with a couple of opposition leaders. Said deal was dead as soon as the protestors learned of it. Individual protestor groups negotiated cease fire terms with individual police commanders. Most were willing to leave if granted safe passage. Mr. Yanukovych fled, and the protestors took the main govt buildings without incident.
Saturday, Mr. Yanukovych refused to step down or resign. Ms Tymoshenko declined consideration for leadership roles.
Monday, interrim govt issues arrest warrant to Mr. Yanukovych. Rumors are that he fled the country, or went to Sevastopol. It looks like border police stopped him from boarding a plane to Russia. Hardline police forces are also regrouping to Crimea. Pro-Russian militias are forming, motivated largely off Russian propaganda.
-
This seems like an appropriate time and place to post this. I stole the picture and modified someone else's comment from a a Michael Z. Williamson FB thread.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FuamCP4e.jpg&hash=db839240b1f6d23a1aeec8b88db0b4a9e4b1b8ee)
-
It is interesting to see how quickly every protester adopted helmet, gas mask, and goggles- there is a lesson there of some sort....
-
It is interesting to see how quickly every protester adopted helmet, gas mask, and goggles- there is a lesson there of some sort....
Fashion trends catch on quick.
-
It is interesting to see how quickly every protester adopted helmet, gas mask, and goggles- there is a lesson there of some sort....
They were fighting urban riot police and interior ministry troops. Tear gas, rubber rounds, live rounds, grenades, fire and dystopian urban landscapes are their threat environment. Makes perfect sense.
-
yes, I imagine the fashion statement would be somewhat different if a half dozen gun trucks showed up and started raking the crowds with MG fire.....
-
Tour of the former president's residence:
http://www.sfgate.com/news/slideshow/Former-Ukrainian-president-s-residence-80606.php
The usual ostentatious displays of wealth, although the galleon is something you don't see every day.
I would have expected a more impressive car collection.
-
I'm still disturbed by the crucified hawks. That's past "opulent dictator" into "disturbingly crazy guy" territory.
-
I'm still disturbed by the crucified hawks. That's past "opulent dictator" into "disturbingly crazy guy" territory.
Say what? I don't understand?
-
Say what? I don't understand?
Yanukovich had a private game reserve. They found several large birds of prey literally nailed to crosses there. Or, I should say, that is what some photos I've seen seem to show.
-
Yanukovich had a private game reserve. They found several large birds of prey literally nailed to crosses there. Or, I should say, that is what some photos I've seen seem to show.
Perhaps a way of displaying a trophy's wingspan?
-
Perhaps a way of displaying a trophy's wingspan?
They looked fresh, I'm guessing they were kept as hunting birds and he had their keepers kill them to keep them out of the hands of the maidan.
-
Here's the picture, but I still have no idea who did this or why. I've seen a suggestion that the maidan killed them this way because they're eagles and symbolized the berkut. But given how remarkably calm and organized the people going into the palace were I don't know how credible that is. All speculation at this point.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-TxF_OxPOqjg/Uwk0-ae_FgI/AAAAAAAARBI/rXFPgTp5EHQ/w506-h750/crucified%2Beagles%2Bonce%2Bowned%2Bby%2BYanukovich.png)
-
Perhaps they were his hunting birds?
Anyway whoever did it is somewhat twisted.
-
Perhaps they were his hunting birds?
Anyway whoever did it is somewhat twisted.
um...yes. maybe more than somewhat.
-
Perhaps they were his hunting birds?
Anyway whoever did it is somewhat twisted.
Yeah, it's a weird deal. I just have a hard time equating the smiling, laughing, non-destroying or looting people I see in all the other pictures of them taking over Yanuk's house with someone making a statement through animal crucifixion. Seems more in character for the nihilistic oligarch fleeing his hated opponents.
-
As Tam put it, now that the civilized nation look alike contest is over, the former KGB Lt Col is going to fix the problem.
http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-pro-russia-gunmen-seize-offices-crimea-104534374.html
-
Now the gloves come off and we see what the Ukraine can put up. Likely to get nasty fast. The Russian's have a pretty good track record.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk
-
The Russian Army is no where near the size of the former Red Army. And it might be only incrementally better and professional. I don't think Putin has the forces available to the seize the Ukraine ala Czechoslovakia '68 or Hungary '56.
Ukrainians were pretty good Guerilla fighters IIRC, and I'm guessing there still a lot of Cossack blood there also.
-
The Russian Army is no where near the size of the former Red Army. And it might be only incrementally better and professional. I don't think Putin has the forces available to the seize the Ukraine ala Czechoslovakia '68 or Hungary '56.
Ukrainians were pretty good Guerilla fighters IIRC, and I'm guessing there still a lot of Cossack blood there also.
All true, but something tells me the Russians will bring a less civil attitude to the party than the internal Ukrainian forces did.
-
Shoot look how they treated the hostages in the theatre attack
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk
-
This is a lesson. Never give up your nukes!
-
Shoot look how they treated the hostages in the theatre attack
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk
[Russian commander] There were hostages in there? [/Russian commander]
-
Terrorists: Dead
Hostages: Dead
MISSION ACCOMPLISHED !!!
-
There was a special on about it the other night. They screwed up the hodtage end by the numbers
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk
-
There was a special on about it the other night. They screwed up the hodtage end by the numbers
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk
Only if you accept that they gave a damn about the hostages. If you think the mission was to show that taking hostages in Russia will get you killed, quickly and without any concessions, then it went fine. How many large hostage situations have there been in Russia since that one?
-
Have no worries Obama warned Putin not meddle in Ukraine. :rofl:
-
Have no worries Obama warned Putin not meddle in Ukraine. :rofl:
Spandex bicycle boy meets hairy chested horseman =D
-
http://time.com/26755/kasparov-carter-looks-like-churchill-in-comparison-to-obama/
-
My biggest worry now is that Obama will realize how mom jeans he looks and try to do something to show how tough he is.
-
I really hope he isn't that narcissistic and stupid.
-
I really hope he isn't that narcissistic and stupid.
That may be a forlorn hope. We shall see.
-
My biggest worry now is that Obama will realize how mom jeans he looks and try to do something to show how tough he is.
There was a time I would have said you were either kidding or had your tinfoil too tight. These days I just don't know.
I thought that was the stupidest picture possible when it came out. I think his 5th Avenue PR team came up with it to make him look like a tough guy (and rolling your sleeves up to show your skinny arms doesn't help with the "tough" image BTW), and maybe to his Milquetoast constituency he does. To the rest of the world it looks like he got interrupted on his way to an Environmental Defense Fund wine and cheese mixer. Some presidents can get away with the "tough guy" image and still be taken seriously. Others need to put on a damn suit.
-
As I understand it the Crimean referendum choices were join Russia or declare independence then most likely join Russia anyway. Doesn't sound too legit.
-
As I understand it the Crimean referendum choices were join Russia or declare independence then most likely join Russia anyway. Doesn't sound too legit.
And this differs from American elections how ???
;) :lol:
-
And this differs from American elections how ???
;) :lol:
No .mil troops or APCs in the streets.
Yet. =|
-
No .mil troops or APCs in the streets.
Yet. =|
Skip the first thirty seconds. Ignore that she's an annoying thing. Real meat is about 45 seconds in.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzIyPilPsCc
How long till the police are monitoring the elections in these?
-
I don't get it...the Nazis and the Commies went toe to toe again, and still no meteor strike. Somebody needs to pray harder.
-
Skip the first thirty seconds. Ignore that she's an annoying thing. Real meat is about 45 seconds in.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzIyPilPsCc
How long till the police are monitoring the elections in these?
So she's detailing every small town that gots an MRAP?
Is this the one that quit RT about a week ago?
I know a guy that gets a lot of his news from RT. :facepalm:
-
Any bets on how long before Ukrain does "something" to threaten either Crimean or Russian security and forces Russia to take preemptive action and occupy Kiev?
the pessimist in me says inside 90 days.
-
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.googlepixel.com%2Fimages%2Fhopey.jpg&hash=cb736ab6df26f8170bae051d72b96ec8d1caa993)
-
Still wondering what effect this will have on our astronauts going to the
ISS Russian space station.
-
Still wondering what effect this will have on our astronauts going to the ISS Russian space station.
Probably, but we have alternatives: http://www.spacex.com/news/2014/03/11/upcoming-mission-falcon-9-and-dragon-launching-space-station (http://www.spacex.com/news/2014/03/11/upcoming-mission-falcon-9-and-dragon-launching-space-station)
-
Probably, but we have alternatives: http://www.spacex.com/news/2014/03/11/upcoming-mission-falcon-9-and-dragon-launching-space-station (http://www.spacex.com/news/2014/03/11/upcoming-mission-falcon-9-and-dragon-launching-space-station)
Tie a really long, heat resistant rope on that thing, and then have our astronauts start practicing with ascender-equipped space suits.
-
I'm thinking this could have gone much more smoothly for old Vladimir, if he had taken the opposite tack on the whole rights-for-homos thing, back a couple of months ago. He'd be a hero, and have Obama's support in whatever he did.
-
I'm thinking this could have gone much more smoothly for old Vladimir, if he had taken the opposite tack on the whole rights-for-homos thing, back a couple of months ago. He'd be a hero, and have Obama's support in whatever he did.
I think he strengthens his position both internally and externally by giving Obama the diplomatic version of a swirlie.
-
I think he strengthens his position both internally and externally by giving Obama the diplomatic version of a swirlie.
There is that.
-
I think he strengthens his position both internally and externally by giving Obama the diplomatic version of a swirlie.
That's not just a regular swirlie that Vlad's handing out, it's a chocolate swirlie.
-
That's raciss!
-
Russian diplomat stabbed by Ukranian-Canadian soldier.
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/Soldier+family+stunned+charge+stabbing+Russian+diplomat/9623277/story.html
-
Russian diplomat stabbed by Ukranian-Canadian soldier.
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/Soldier+family+stunned+charge+stabbing+Russian+diplomat/9623277/story.html
Was the diplomat's first name Franz?
Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk
-
Was the diplomat's first name Franz?
Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk
I vote we stay out of the next WW. WWI and WWII didn't do us much good.
-
I vote we stay out of the next WW. WWI and WWII didn't do us much good.
WWI, probably not. WWII, yea.
Japan attacked us, and would have continued its expansionist policies to threaten our direct interests.
Letting Germany or the Soviet Union enslave all of Europe would NOT have been good for our national security, economic concerns and other interests.
It also gave us a jump start on military technology that was crucial during the Cold War. Would you really have wanted us facing the Soviets with a tech deficiency of a decade plus?
-
WWI, probably not. WWII, yea.
Japan attacked us, and would have continued its expansionist policies to threaten our direct interests.
Letting Germany or the Soviet Union enslave all of Europe would NOT have been good for our national security, economic concerns and other interests.
It also gave us a jump start on military technology that was crucial during the Cold War. Would you really have wanted us facing the Soviets with a tech deficiency of a decade plus?
Were we not involved in WWII, the USSR would not have been a threat afterwards. It may not even have existed. Germany would have gobbled up the useful bits of the western USSR up to the Urals and set up satrapies. The eastern USSR had relatively little industry with which they could have threatened anyone not a Siberian subsistence hunter. Post-war for the USSR, had it survived, would have had a peril-filled existence what with China getting unified under Mao in 1949.
USSR was well and truly @$%^ed without both our "Lend-Lease" hardware (to include beau coup trucks to bring in the harvests and imperial buttloads of war materiel) and -eventually- another front to relieve the German pressure on them.
So, you would have had a German-controlled Europe from the English channel to the Urals...for a while. Until the locals figured out there was no way in Hades Germany could control such a mass of humans with its population. To keep control, Germany would have to have a great deal of cooperation from the locals. And were such cooperation forthcoming, how illegitimate would the satrapies then be? Any less than the USSR's? How about relative to the EU? Would a "premature EUSSR" have less legitimacy than the current undemocratic EU?
===============
Yep, Japan attacked, so that was their *expletive deleted*ss. No stopping the American public from grinding them into paste after that, even if our leaders wanted to ignore Japan and focus on saving western europe the USSR from the Hun. And I doubt that if Germany had refrained from declaring war on the USA we could have prevented our leaders from declaring war on Germany.
At the end of WWII we still had most of Europe in chains and the largest malefactor got rewarded for their savagery. Also, though the USA ended up a superpower, so did the USSR. And then we had Mao and N Korea and N Vietnam, too. The latter two would not have existed without a post WWII USSR superpower.
So, yeah, WWII did not do us much good for what we expended on it.
-
Russia is stealing Chernomornaftogaz. Er, I mean, Crimea is nationalizing Chernomornaftogaz and giving it to Gazprom in a gesture of solidarity. And Russia is jacking up the price of gas to make Ukraine pay for its own invasion.
http://www.lufkin.ru/en/news/ukraine-loses-gas-discount-%E2%80%93-putin%E2%80%99s-spokesman
http://www.lufkin.ru/en/news/ukraine-pay-agreed-price-russian-gas-minister
-
Russia is stealing Chernomornaftogaz. Er, I mean, Crimea is nationalizing Chernomornaftogaz and giving it to Gazprom in a gesture of solidarity. And Russia is jacking up the price of gas to make Ukraine pay for its own invasion.
http://www.lufkin.ru/en/news/ukraine-loses-gas-discount-%E2%80%93-putin%E2%80%99s-spokesman
http://www.lufkin.ru/en/news/ukraine-pay-agreed-price-russian-gas-minister
Crap. If only we could have figured out how to do this with Iran, maybe we would have made some money on the deal.
-
Crap. If only we could have figured out how to do this with Iran, maybe we would have made some money on the deal.
USSA can't seem to figure out how to do this empire thing correctly :facepalm:
-
USSA can't seem to figure out how to do this empire thing correctly :facepalm:
The British knew how to do this: oppress the wogs, extract the natural resources, sell them finished goods, install a workable legal, educational and governmental infrastructure, and all in time for tea and finger sandwiches with a whiskey nightcap. Jolly good, I say.
-
The British knew how to do this: oppress the wogs, extract the natural resources, sell them finished goods, install a workable legal, educational and governmental infrastructure, and all in time for tea and finger sandwiches with a whiskey nightcap. Jolly good, I say.
I'd say the locals were far better off during the time they were supposedly being "oppressed" by the Brits.
-
WWI, probably not. WWII, yea.
Japan attacked us, and would have continued its expansionist policies to threaten our direct interests.
Letting Germany or the Soviet Union enslave all of Europe would NOT have been good for our national security, economic concerns and other interests.
It also gave us a jump start on military technology that was crucial during the Cold War. Would you really have wanted us facing the Soviets with a tech deficiency of a decade plus?
Emphasis mine. They might have been pushed into doing it by a Soviet mole in FDR's White House, specifically Henry Dexter White, as directed by NKVD/KGB agents did the bidding of Stalin to secure his eastern flank. Remember the Japanese referred to Siberia as "The Northern Resource Area" Just like Indonesia et al, was referred to as "The Southern Resource Area". And the Japanese were still smarting from Khalkhyn Gol, and
Operation Snow, by John Koster. Interesting read.
-
I just wish we had nuked the crap out of the Russians as well as the Japanese. So many millions of people who died in slavery because of Yalta. =(
-
I just wish we had nuked the crap out of the Russians as well as the Japanese. So many millions of people who died in slavery because of Yalta. =(
The dirty secret of WWII is that we didn't go to war to save anybody, as many think. We didn't give a damn about the Jews, the Chinese, or the various other people that were being killed or enslaved or overrun by the Axis nations and we let many, many fall under the Iron Curtain. We also turned a blind eye to and/or helped cover up atrocities committed by the Russians.
-
The dirty secret of WWII is that we didn't go to war to save anybody, as many think. We didn't give a damn about the Jews, the Chinese, or the various other people that were being killed or enslaved or overrun by the Axis nations and we let many, many fall under the Iron Curtain. We also turned a blind eye to and/or helped cover up atrocities committed by the Russians.
This. Wars tend to be about economic interests. Oh, sometimes you just have to go with public opinion. But usually it's about economics.
-
The dirty secret of WWII is that we didn't go to war to save anybody, as many think. We didn't give a damn about the Jews, the Chinese, or the various other people that were being killed or enslaved or overrun by the Axis nations and we let many, many fall under the Iron Curtain. We also turned a blind eye to and/or helped cover up atrocities committed by the Russians.
Yeah I know, because FDR was a filthy goddamn commie himself.
-
This. Wars tend to be about economic interests. Oh, sometimes you just have to go with public opinion. But usually it's about economics.
Balderdash! Next thing you'll have us believe is that the American Civil War was about encroaching Federal powers over the states and regulation of commerce in the South instead of freeing the slaves....
-
Balderdash! Next thing you'll have us believe is that the American Civil War was about encroaching Federal powers over the states and regulation of commerce in the South instead of freeing the slaves....
It was both. I know it's fashionable to claim the Civil War was over states rights instead of slavery, but a basic look at the CSA constitution shows otherwise. It was basically a direct copy that allowed slavery. IMHO, the South was building a new aristocracy. Not built directly on slavery, but it sure as hell played a part. Destroying that aristocracy was worth every penny, every scorched state and every life lost. Both that aristocracy and slavery were core parts of the Southern economy.
-
It was both. I know it's fashionable to claim the Civil War was over states rights instead of slavery, but a basic look at the CSA constitution shows otherwise. It was basically a direct copy that allowed slavery. IMHO, the South was building a new aristocracy. Not built directly on slavery, but it sure as hell played a part. Destroying that aristocracy was worth every penny, every scorched state and every life lost. Both that aristocracy and slavery were core parts of the Southern economy.
Which is really what it boiled down to. Without the South, the North lost it's economic engine.
-
Which is really what it boiled down to. Without the South, the North lost it's economic engine.
Wait, wut? South was primarily agriculture. Worse, they relied on three cash crops: cotton, tobacco, and sugar. 84% of their population was directly tied to agriculture. Admittedly, they did have 70% of total US exports, but it was a much more fragile hold than they imagined. Worse yet, they stopped shipping to Europe to try to "force" them to recognize the South, shooting themselves economically in the foot. They tied their money to cotton, and when Britain started getting their cotton from Egypt and India... It was all over, their currency was junk. Combined with a blockade of international trade and industrial products from the North, it was amazing they lasted as long as they did. Their transportation networks were crap. Their government often financed themselves by grabbing what they wanted, giving the owner a worthless certificate, and not paying. Combined with poor regulation on their banks, speculation went nuts.
The largest strategic asset that the CSA ever possessed was the incompetence of Northern commanding generals. It has exactly one strategic resource, cotton. Wasn't enough to save their wretched hides. If you only have one staple resource, your economic engine is very fragile regardless of size. Competition, changing demand or technology can crush it overnight.
Which segways neatly... Gas is Russia's hold on Europe. If we can circumvent that hold, we can greatly diminish Putin's foreign power without a single bullet being fired.
-
Admittedly, they did have 70% of total US exports,
yea admittedly
Worse yet, they stopped shipping to Europe to try to "force" them to recognize the South,
In May 1861 the Union naval blockade shut down almost all port activity except for blockade runners. International and coastal traffic fell 90 percent or more.
-
Roll, Alabama, Roll! =D
-
Wait, wut? South was primarily agriculture. Worse, they relied on three cash crops: cotton, tobacco, and sugar. 84% of their population was directly tied to agriculture. Admittedly, they did have 70% of total US exports, but it was a much more fragile hold than they imagined. Worse yet, they stopped shipping to Europe to try to "force" them to recognize the South, shooting themselves economically in the foot. They tied their money to cotton, and when Britain started getting their cotton from Egypt and India... It was all over, their currency was junk. Combined with a blockade of international trade and industrial products from the North, it was amazing they lasted as long as they did. Their transportation networks were crap. Their government often financed themselves by grabbing what they wanted, giving the owner a worthless certificate, and not paying. Combined with poor regulation on their banks, speculation went nuts.
The largest strategic asset that the CSA ever possessed was the incompetence of Northern commanding generals. It has exactly one strategic resource, cotton. Wasn't enough to save their wretched hides. If you only have one staple resource, your economic engine is very fragile regardless of size. Competition, changing demand or technology can crush it overnight.
Which segways neatly... Gas is Russia's hold on Europe. If we can circumvent that hold, we can greatly diminish Putin's foreign power without a single bullet being fired.
The whole thing was fragile at the time.
The south needed slaves to hold it together. The north needed the south to hold it together.
-
Rev, your comment on the southern aristocracy hit me- I think we are seeing a new aristocracy arise- seems like many of our top political offices now are becoming almost hereditary. Kennedy, Bush, Clinton, and a host of senators...
it is an incestuous stew.
-
The British knew how to do this: oppress the wogs, extract the natural resources, sell them finished goods, install a workable legal, educational and governmental infrastructure, and all in time for tea and finger sandwiches with a whiskey nightcap. Jolly good, I say.
Not really. Our Empire ran on trade, naval and technological superiority, ball games and rationalizing local power structures (especially in India) - the "oppressing the wogs" only happened afterwards when several generations came into being who didnt have to exert effort in terms of doing anything, assumed they were in charge because they were upper class and white (probably in that order), and enacted nonsensical legislation based on that belief that antagonized nearly everyone who wasnt them.
-
Not really. Our Empire ran on trade, naval and technological superiority, ball games and rationalizing local power structures (especially in India) - the "oppressing the wogs" only happened afterwards when several generations came into being who didnt have to exert effort in terms of doing anything, assumed they were in charge because they were upper class and white (probably in that order), and enacted nonsensical legislation based on that belief that antagonized nearly everyone who wasnt them.
You guys made a fortune off of your empire and we are being impoverished by ours :facepalm:
-
We also turned a blind eye to and/or helped cover up atrocities committed by the Russians.
Don't forget "directly assisted in some". Linz, for instance.
Gas is Russia's hold on Europe. If we can circumvent that hold, we can greatly diminish Putin's foreign power without a single bullet being fired.
The worst hit to Mr. Pu would be a drop in oil prices.
-
Nice to see that for once, it was not I that re-started the Civil War. =D =D [popcorn] [popcorn]
-
Nice to see that for once, it was not I that re-started the Civil War. =D =D [popcorn] [popcorn]
It was hardly civil :P
-
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/03/russia-partly-withdraws-from-ukraine-border-2014331143547644198.html
Russia is pulling off some forces from Ukraine's borders. Not from Crimea, however.
-
WAG on my part, but I don't think Russia has the depth of manpower or logistics or the money to do more than maintain their hold on the Crimea.
And the threats, overt or implied to Poland, Finland, and the Baltics are paper tigers. There's economic reasons for the Crimea with the gas and the ports, and the bases as we've gone over, but the whole thing is also a show to shore up Putin at home. It was also part of the larger pattern of the persecution of gays, and the Sochi Olympics.
His version of what the Iranian revolutionary .gov is doing there with the nuclear program and constant low-level proxy warfare with the U.S. Britain, and Israel/Saudi Arabia to maintain control internally through external crisis.
Will it be enough?
Any robber barons or oligarchs over there who might decide Putin's not their boy anymore?
-
WAG on my part, but I don't think Russia has the depth of manpower or logistics or the money to do more than maintain their hold on the Crimea.
And the threats, overt or implied to Poland, Finland, and the Baltics are paper tigers. There's economic reasons for the Crimea with the gas and the ports, and the bases as we've gone over, but the whole thing is also a show to shore up Putin at home. It was also part of the larger pattern of the persecution of gays, and the Sochi Olympics.
His version of what the Iranian revolutionary .gov is doing there with the nuclear program and constant low-level proxy warfare with the U.S. Britain, and Israel/Saudi Arabia to maintain control internally through external crisis.
Will it be enough?
Any robber barons or oligarchs over there who might decide Putin's not their boy anymore?
;/
-
;/
Quasi-persecution... whatever you want to call it. However I don't think for a second it had anything to do with social concerns over homosexuality in Russia.
-
Quasi-persecution... whatever you want to call it. However I don't think for a second it had anything to do with social concerns over homosexuality in Russia.
One law, prohibiting the spread of "gay propaganda" to children in public. "ZOMG THEY CAN'T TALK ABOUT THEIR SEXUAL CHOICES TO MINORS IN PUBLIC, IT'S LIKE THE INQUISITION!!!!!" But forcing Christians to take part and/or perform gay weddings and Catholic hospitals to pay for and perform abortions is totally cool, and anyone saying it might be an infringement of liberty and conscience (let alone persecution) is just a paranoid and hateful homophobic misogynist.
Not upset with you, but the whole situation is just eye rollingly ridiculous.
-
;/
Don't you know? It is World War G. And World War T. We must invade Germany Russia to save the Jews gays and gypsies trannies!(1)
http://isteve.blogspot.com/2013/08/world-war-gay.html
http://takimag.com/article/world_war_t_steve_sailer/print#axzz2rALcQYIc
(1) Sometimes the last couple centuries seem to have been the result of several games of Geopolitical Mad Lib.
-
One law, prohibiting the spread of "gay propaganda" to children in public. "ZOMG THEY CAN'T TALK ABOUT THEIR SEXUAL CHOICES TO MINORS IN PUBLIC, IT'S LIKE THE INQUISITION!!!!!"
Given that the law does not actually define what this gay propaganda is (and, according to surveys, 90% of the country doesn't know what it is, either), it's a sort of a universal gag law. My favorite example, so far, was the complaint made under the law against a dairy company for having rainbows on their packaging. So, yeah. Not nearly as harmless as you might think.
-
But forcing Christians to take part and/or perform gay weddings and Catholic hospitals to pay for and perform abortions is totally cool.
I worked for many years for a very large Catholic healthcare chain, and I sure cannot remember the facilities there being forced to pay for and perform elective abortions. There are some narrow therapeutic indications in which some Catholic hospitals allow some types of pregnancy terminations to be done at their facilities, usually in the context of saving the life of the mother.
-
Given that the law does not actually define what this gay propaganda is (and, according to surveys, 90% of the country doesn't know what it is, either), it's a sort of a universal gag law. My favorite example, so far, was the complaint made under the law against a dairy company for having rainbows on their packaging. So, yeah. Not nearly as harmless as you might think.
Meh, stupid laws are stupid. Hardly merits the zomg outrage.
I worked for many years for a very large Catholic healthcare chain, and I sure cannot remember the facilities there being forced to pay for and perform elective abortions. There are some narrow therapeutic indications in which some Catholic hospitals allow some types of pregnancy terminations to be done at their facilities, usually in the context of saving the life of the mother.
That was then, this is now.
-
That was then, this is now.
OK, I am going to need to see some actual citations to this. Or are you referring to abortion coverage being provided through the healthcare insurance plans for the employees of these hospitals, as is common for many insurance plans?
-
OK, I am going to need to see some actual citations to this. Or are you referring to abortion coverage being provided through the healthcare insurance plans for the employees of these hospitals, as is common for many insurance plans?
The second, although I've frequently seen the same folks bemoaning Russia's treatment of gays (they usually don't mention the House of Saud's treatment of gays, guess it's racist to criticize brown folks who aren't republicans) who have no objection to forcing catholic hospitals to perform elective abortions.
ETA: and with the Catholics specifically there is also birth control via insurance.
-
Is Kerry on crack?
http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/30/world/europe/ukraine-crisis/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
Does this idiot really believe that Russia is in any way interested in a political solution? What's needed is for NATO to put a massive force along the new "border". We already diddled while Russia took Crimea.
I am disgusted.
-
Is Kerry on crack?
Kerry's crack is Kerry. The man is so in love with himself and the sound of his own voice he makes a classic, text book narcissist look like Mother Theresa and Ghandi's love child.
-
Is Kerry on crack?
http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/30/world/europe/ukraine-crisis/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
Does this idiot really believe that Russia is in any way interested in a political solution? What's needed is for NATO to put a massive force along the new "border". We already diddled while Russia took Crimea.
I am disgusted.
Butbutbut Imperialism! War mongering! Bush's fault!
-
Is Kerry on crack?
http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/30/world/europe/ukraine-crisis/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
Does this idiot really believe that Russia is in any way interested in a political solution? What's needed is for NATO to put a massive force along the new "border". We already diddled while Russia took Crimea.
I am disgusted.
Nato does not have many toys to bring to the game. The only countries with decent heavy armor units in europe are the former easern bloc coubtries. The ones that just wiped the floor with our strykers inthe war games late last year.
And i really dont want to be a party pooper but are serious people really contemplating starting a war with russia over their flipping a majority russian province and russias law against enabling pedophiles. Putin is a right bastard but his actions thus far have precedent in kosovo.
-
Nato does not have many toys to bring to the game. The only countries with decent heavy armor units in europe are the former easern bloc coubtries. The ones that just wiped the floor with our strykers inthe war games late last year.
And i really dont want to be a party pooper but are serious people really contemplating starting a war with russia over their flipping a majority russian province and russias law against enabling pedophiles. Putin is a right bastard but his actions thus far have precedent in kosovo.
Putin is a chess player. He knows that his opponent lacks will even though the US is militarily capable of putting him in his place.
So long as he doesn't rock the boat much, he can achieve his goals. My bet is he spaces his conquests out to give the furor time to die down. Probably will not wait as long after Crimea as he did for Georgia, though. I give better than 50% odds he has most of imperial Russia back before The Won's term is complete.
NATO? Half those odds that Putin shatters it (25/75). I seriously doubt that even a direct invasion of one of the new NATO signatories would bring military retribution on Russia. Europe doesn't actually care and Obama actively hates our allies.
I don't think Finland (as I read the "rumors" about his aims) is one of Putin's goals, but, at this point, the only thing that will stop him is his own capabilities for projecting force and holding the territory. No other country with the capability of stopping him has the will to do so.
-
Putin is a chess player. He knows that his opponent lacks will even though the US is militarily capable of putting him in his place.
So long as he doesn't rock the boat much, he can achieve his goals. My bet is he spaces his conquests out to give the furor time to die down. Probably will not wait as long after Crimea as he did for Georgia, though. I give better than 50% odds he has most of imperial Russia back before The Won's term is complete.
NATO? Half those odds that Putin shatters it (25/75). I seriously doubt that even a direct invasion of one of the new NATO signatories would bring military retribution on Russia. Europe doesn't actually care and Obama actively hates our allies.
I don't think Finland (as I read the "rumors" about his aims) is one of Putin's goals, but, at this point, the only thing that will stop him is his own capabilities for projecting force and holding the territory. No other country with the capability of stopping him has the will to do so.
I believe you nailed it. Timeline might take a bit longer then that, but the general idea is sound.
MAD doctrine only matters if both parties are willing to fight. If one isn't, the other has great leeway.
-
Putin is a right bastard but his actions thus far have precedent in kosovo.
The Kosovo precedent is a stretch. Realistically, there's zero chance of Pro-Western Ukrainians "ethnically" cleaning Pro-Russian Ukrainians. Serbia was fully intending on doing very bad things towards the local Albanians. Things have calmed down quite a bit, and the Kosovar Albanians haven't generally gone on a rampage killing or driving out Kosovar Serbs. There's some small scale neighborhood stuff, but generally not on the large scale.
Though, I suspect Putin will try to make the same argument. "Poor innocent Slavic brothers have been brutally repressed by evil pro-Western terrorists!" Mostly because the dude could care less if anyone outside the Slavic world believes it.
Putin is a chess player. He knows that his opponent lacks will even though the US is militarily capable of putting him in his place.
So long as he doesn't rock the boat much, he can achieve his goals. My bet is he spaces his conquests out to give the furor time to die down. Probably will not wait as long after Crimea as he did for Georgia, though. I give better than 50% odds he has most of imperial Russia back before The Won's term is complete.
NATO? Half those odds that Putin shatters it (25/75). I seriously doubt that even a direct invasion of one of the new NATO signatories would bring military retribution on Russia. Europe doesn't actually care and Obama actively hates our allies.
I don't think Finland (as I read the "rumors" about his aims) is one of Putin's goals, but, at this point, the only thing that will stop him is his own capabilities for projecting force and holding the territory. No other country with the capability of stopping him has the will to do so.
Putin is also playing smart by only taking on folks he knows he can beat. Either by beating up on tiny countries, or invading places that are pro-Russian Slavs. He might flip his lid and invade, say Finland and/or Poland. But I doubt it. If he sticks to beating up tiny countries of no importance or annexing pro-Russian Slavic populations, he'll basically have free reign. Is anyone going to go to war over people that WANT to be annexed? Or are too tiny to matter?
Sure, part of his motivation is becoming Czar Putin the First of the New Greater Russian Empire. The other part is appeasing enough of the population to stay in power.
-
Putin is a chess player. He knows that his opponent lacks will even though the US is militarily capable of putting him in his place.
So long as he doesn't rock the boat much, he can achieve his goals. My bet is he spaces his conquests out to give the furor time to die down. Probably will not wait as long after Crimea as he did for Georgia, though. I give better than 50% odds he has most of imperial Russia back before The Won's term is complete.
NATO? Half those odds that Putin shatters it (25/75). I seriously doubt that even a direct invasion of one of the new NATO signatories would bring military retribution on Russia. Europe doesn't actually care and Obama actively hates our allies.
I don't think Finland (as I read the "rumors" about his aims) is one of Putin's goals, but, at this point, the only thing that will stop him is his own capabilities for projecting force and holding the territory. No other country with the capability of stopping him has the will to do so.
Folks forget that the Georgians started that particular mess. Poke the bear and don't be surprised you get bit.
-
Give each NATO country bordering Russia ten tactical nukes....either short-range missles or demolition packages (i.e. suitcase nukes) to use in case of invasion. That should blunt the Russian appetite.
-
... the only thing that will stop him is his own capabilities for projecting force and holding the territory. No other country with the capability of stopping him has the will to do so.
That about sums it up.
-
So now the Kremlin says that ethnic Russians in Ukraine are calling upon the Russians to save them from harassment and danger from the Ukrainians. This sure sounds like Hitler using the same excuse with the ethnic Germans in Central and Eastern Europe as a pretext for invasion. Along with the increasing clashes in Ukraine, I am more and more convinced that an invasion will occur.
-
Next up.
Ethinc Chinese in Tiawan call for help from mainland China giving them casue to rescue thier people and invade the island, Obama will speak sternly about it.
Ethnic Mexicans in Southern US claim opression, Mexico invades So-Cal and Texas. Obama will speak sternly about it and condem US citizens for fighting the foreign aid from Mexico and prosecute anyone who might have actively resisted.
-
The pastor of my church has been in Kiev all week. He's expected back on Tuesday.
Interesting timing.
-
So now the Kremlin says that ethnic Russians in Ukraine are calling upon the Russians to save them from harassment and danger from the Ukrainians. This sure sounds like Hitler using the same excuse with the ethnic Germans in Central and Eastern Europe as a pretext for invasion. Along with the increasing clashes in Ukraine, I am more and more convinced that an invasion will occur.
Russia will use this as an excuse to invade. And the western media won't point out that when Muslim separatists in certain areas of Russia did what Putin has instigated these Russian-speaking Ukrainians to do, Russia reacted with overwhelming force, and the west basically said, "Oh, yeah, turrurists, go get 'em, yay, rah."
Putin's hypocrisy is immense, but it's no match for the hypocrisy of the western media. And politicians.
-
Next up.
Ethinc Chinese in Tiawan call for help from mainland China giving them casue to rescue thier people and invade the island, Obama will speak sternly about it.
Ethnic Mexicans in Southern US claim opression, Mexico invades So-Cal and Texas. Obama will speak sternly about it and condem US citizens for fighting the foreign aid from Mexico and prosecute anyone who might have actively resisted.
Don't forget Quebec ...
-
Don't forget Quebec ...
So the French are going to preemptively surrender to Canada?
-
Nato does not have many toys to bring to the game. The only countries with decent heavy armor units in europe are the former easern bloc coubtries. The ones that just wiped the floor with our strykers inthe war games late last year.
This.
We have ONE, count them ONE, Battalion of M1 Abrams in Europe. Don't have any troops to man them (they are there for units to use when they rotate through for training at Grafenwoehr). We have ONE, count them ONE, Regiment of Strykers. Which as Roo_ster pointed out, got mauled by every single heavy armor unit from every NATO country in last years war games. I mean good ol' fashioned *expletive deleted*ss-kickings. We have, at last count 33,000 troops in Germany.
Germany has THREE, count them THREE, Battalion of Leopards. And three divisions. The entire Heer (army) is 80,000 troops total.
Not sure what the Poles have, but I can't see them as real ambitious to go to/through the Ukraine to protect them. Especially with Russia friendly Belarus right on their border.
So to sum up: There ain't much we or NATO could do militarily to Russia to stop what they are doing and any attempt to do so simply fills the Butcher's Bill for no gain/good purpose.
And I really don't like the idea of Putin Sudetenlanding the Crimea and eastern parts of Ukraine, but we are to weak to stop it.
It's up to Ukraine to do what they can, should that result in an all out invasion, that *Might* change things. But given the weak waffle we have in the White House, it's doubtful.
-
It's up to Ukraine to do what they can, should that result in an all out invasion, that *Might* change things. But given the weak waffle we have in the White House, it's doubtful.
And therein lies the real problem in my opinion. He is a weakling. That makes me fear he might do something monumentally stupid just to prove otherwise.
-
And therein lies the real problem. He is a weakling. That makes me fear he might do something monumentally stupid just to prove otherwise.
When people ask me if I think we should act militarily in Ukraine (or anywhere) I tell them that I want no military action, with the current Chief Executive. Or Chief Defective, if you will.
-
One law, prohibiting the spread of "gay propaganda" to children in public. "ZOMG THEY CAN'T TALK ABOUT THEIR SEXUAL CHOICES TO MINORS IN PUBLIC, IT'S LIKE THE INQUISITION!!!!!"
Which has been used to arrest anyone mentioning homosexuality in a non-negative way in a public setting.
Yes. It is like the inquisition.
-
So to sum up: There ain't much we or NATO could do militarily to Russia to stop what they are doing and any attempt to do so simply fills the Butcher's Bill for no gain/good purpose.
Then bring in our geneticists; make up a carefully targeted potato virus and refit some B1s as crop dusters. When the vodka is all gone, the DTs will make them easier to deal with.