Armed Polite Society

Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: HForrest on April 18, 2005, 08:16:22 PM

Title: Just got done watching "24". Now I'm pissed.
Post by: HForrest on April 18, 2005, 08:16:22 PM
24's had some serious issues with illegal torture of suspects. I never agreed with it. Tonight, though, they've gone too far. They portray the side of basic human rights as some whiney, snively liberals who don't know anything about terrorism. The fact is, it's WRONG to use torture. ESPECIALLY on U.S. Citizens with basic Constitutional and civil rights. I don't care what "extreme circumstance" there is. "Extreme circumstances" lead to more power abuse and then dictatorships. It's WRONG WRONG WRONG and BLANTANTLY UNCONSTITUTIONAL and against the basic idea of human rights. I'm getting so tired of the propaganda crap 24 has spewed out this season.










(On the other hand, I noticed an MP5k this episode. Cool!) Cheesy
Title: Just got done watching "24". Now I'm pissed.
Post by: Winston Smith on April 18, 2005, 08:30:54 PM
Actually, the 8th amendment only forbids cruel and unusual PUNISHMENT, not torture to gain a confession or information.

I mean, I agree withy our point, but your argument is weak.

It's WRONG to kill someone, but in certain circumstances it becomes RIGHT. Is torture one of those actions that NEVER become right? Like rape, or molestation, or speeding?
Title: Just got done watching "24". Now I'm pissed.
Post by: Ukraine Train on April 18, 2005, 09:24:03 PM
Relax, it's just TV lol
Title: Just got done watching "24". Now I'm pissed.
Post by: HForrest on April 18, 2005, 10:01:31 PM
Good point about the Constitution. I was just in rant mode, I can't believe how much of this crap 24 has been putting in this season.

Ukraine Train: It may just be a TV show, but it's a TV show millions of people watch, and propaganda messages inserted into it can influence people's opinions. When people watch the show, they're -cheering- for Jack Bauer or whoever it is torturing the suspect, because the suspect is an evil badguy terrorist. It's always the right decision and it always saves lives with the information gathered and the good federal agent who does it isn't reprimanded because what he did was the right thing and sometimes you just have to go "against the book".

Therefore, especially when it's shown over and over again, people get the idea that it's *okay* to torture people who we think are evil. People become more comfortable and acclimated with it- making it much easier for it to become reality.
Title: Just got done watching "24". Now I'm pissed.
Post by: BillBlank on April 18, 2005, 11:27:34 PM
I have to agree with Wombat's analysis and speculation as to the change in attitudes this kind of stuff can bring about. Gauntenemo bay is a neat example of what happens when people throw away or debase the very thing they are trying to defend by their actions doing so.

As an aside, whilst in Cuba (a lovely little dictatorship) this month I got stuck with CNN as my only source of news for two weeks.  I used to think that the Fox news slogan "Fair and Balanced" was some kind of ironic, self deprecatory, humour. I now see that relative to CNN they can get away with saying it. We got more balanced commentary and international news off Cuban national tv.
Title: Just got done watching "24". Now I'm pissed.
Post by: tyme on April 19, 2005, 03:21:47 AM
The shadowy torturer identified only as "Richards" is a bit excessive.

However, haven't Jack's torture episodes all been off-book?  He's always willing to accept the consequences of his actions if he's wrong.  The fact that he's never been wrong is a good indication (aside from it being a TV show) that his actions are justified.  In every single case he's gotten useful, relevant information through torture fater than he could have gotten it otherwise.

It's not as if his questionable activities only began this season.  In the past he's battered numerous people who had nothing to do with terror or assassination plots, killed some criminals and at least one non-criminal in cold blood (and at the behest of a terrorist, too), instructed his own daughter to fire a killing shot (albeit at a psychopath) in cold blood.  He's also caused a prison riot where who knows how many guards were injured, and one killed himself after Jack told him to play Russian roulette.

I think it's a bit late to whine about Jack's morals now that he's pretty much only torturing known terrorists.  Smiley
Title: Just got done watching "24". Now I'm pissed.
Post by: 45r on April 19, 2005, 04:38:52 AM
My favorite part of the show was when Jack "gave" him something for the pain.
Title: Just got done watching "24". Now I'm pissed.
Post by: Justin on April 19, 2005, 05:18:58 AM
Quote
Actually, the 8th amendment only forbids cruel and unusual PUNISHMENT, not torture to gain a confession or information.
Are you high?! What is torture if not punishment for failing to provide information or actions that you would otherwise not comply with?
Title: Just got done watching "24". Now I'm pissed.
Post by: bratch on April 19, 2005, 06:45:01 AM
Earlier in the season they did have a torture episode where they admitted it was the wrong person.

I'm not sure what lengths I would go to to prevent a nuke going off in the US either...
Title: Just got done watching "24". Now I'm pissed.
Post by: spacemanspiff on April 19, 2005, 07:24:51 AM
i missed what he 'gave' the guy for his pain. what was it?
Title: Just got done watching "24". Now I'm pissed.
Post by: Lt. G on April 19, 2005, 08:04:39 AM
A smack in the back of the head, I believe Spiffy.
Title: Just got done watching "24". Now I'm pissed.
Post by: Winston Smith on April 19, 2005, 04:45:42 PM
Justin: I cede that point. No further argument.s
Title: Just got done watching "24". Now I'm pissed.
Post by: Glock Glockler on April 19, 2005, 05:51:42 PM
Justin,

Punishment, in the legal sense, is different from getting nasty to extract information.  Someone commits a crime, goes to trial, and is then convicted, it then becomes necessary to make an example of him to serve as a deterant, as well as remove him from the population for their own safety.  That is punishment.

That situation is very different from getting info from a guy because if you don't thousands of innocents will die.  You might know someone is guilty but you don't have the time to go through the legal channels to prove it because by the time you do you need bodybags by the busload.

I don't have the slightest problem with Bauer putting a hole in the guy's leg, I'd rather one guy experience pain and a limp than to have an entire city of people dead.  You might think of him as collateral damage.
Title: Just got done watching "24". Now I'm pissed.
Post by: K Frame on April 19, 2005, 09:05:50 PM
My favorite part of 24?

Surfing right the hell past it to a show that's actually interesting, like Naked Bimbo Robot Mud Wrestling on ESPN or, on TLC, "Home Lobotomies."
Title: Just got done watching "24". Now I'm pissed.
Post by: armedcitizen on April 20, 2005, 09:15:47 AM
"Relax, it's just TV lol"

+1 for that!  

I've never seen a television without an on/off switch.  If it bothers you, turn it off!
Title: Just got done watching "24". Now I'm pissed.
Post by: kfranz on April 20, 2005, 09:50:59 AM
Nobody said your life had to be free of idiots whose minds are influenced by TV shows.  Bitch all you want, but emotion isn't the answer to the problem....
Title: Just got done watching "24". Now I'm pissed.
Post by: HForrest on April 20, 2005, 07:06:43 PM
I like the show because it's well written and suspenseful. I'm concerned about the negative effect it might have on sheeple America, and I don't see what's wrong with me stating that.
Title: Just got done watching "24". Now I'm pissed.
Post by: HForrest on April 20, 2005, 07:19:31 PM
Quote
That situation is very different from getting info from a guy because if you don't thousands of innocents will die.  You might know someone is guilty but you don't have the time to go through the legal channels to prove it because by the time you do you need bodybags by the busload.

I don't have the slightest problem with Bauer putting a hole in the guy's leg, I'd rather one guy experience pain and a limp than to have an entire city of people dead.  You might think of him as collateral damage.
Just how do we know the guy isn't innocent? The word of one federal agent? I'm sorry, but that system is just screaming "abuse me", and that's why we have courts. What you're suggesting is a country in which any agency can determine one's guilt without a trial, hold them without charges, and torture them. That's wrong, my friend. Tell me that's a country you want to live in.
Title: Just got done watching "24". Now I'm pissed.
Post by: kfranz on April 21, 2005, 06:03:27 AM
Quote
I'm concerned about the negative effect it might have on sheeple America, and I don't see what's wrong with me stating that.
Nothing wrong with you being concerned or with your stating your concern.  Also nothing wrong with us telling you it's pretty foolish to get emotional about a TV show.
Title: Just got done watching "24". Now I'm pissed.
Post by: Silver Bullet on April 21, 2005, 08:28:25 AM
Quote
My favorite part of the show was when Jack "gave" him something for the pain.
That was great !  Smiley

So, whos the best interrogator, Jack Bauer (24), or Jack Bristow (Alias) ?
Title: Just got done watching "24". Now I'm pissed.
Post by: atek3 on April 21, 2005, 10:20:19 AM
I'm crazy so take what I say on the matter with a grain of salt.

That show is fascist, and the whole point of it is to keep people afraid and willing to accept police state encroachments from the central government.

Ya, I'll still watch it, but that doesn't mean Jack Bauer is any less of a fascist.

atek3
Title: Just got done watching "24". Now I'm pissed.
Post by: SteveS on April 21, 2005, 01:24:41 PM
Quote from: Silver Bullet
Quote
My favorite part of the show was when Jack "gave" him something for the pain.
That was great !  Smiley

So, who’s the best interrogator, Jack Bauer (24), or Jack Bristow (Alias) ?
If you are talking Alias, then I would have to say the best is that Chinese guy that used various dental techniques...nasty!
Title: Just got done watching "24". Now I'm pissed.
Post by: Silver Bullet on April 21, 2005, 01:55:19 PM
He was bad, but he didn't get any info from Sydney.
Title: Just got done watching "24". Now I'm pissed.
Post by: Glock Glockler on April 21, 2005, 05:40:19 PM
Combat Wombat,

Just how do we know the guy isn't innocent? The word of one federal agent? I'm sorry, but that system is just screaming "abuse me", and that's why we have courts. What you're suggesting is a country in which any agency can determine one's guilt without a trial, hold them without charges, and torture them. That's wrong, my friend. Tell me that's a country you want to live in

If the agent feels that strongly about the guy's guilt he should be willing to take the consequences of his actions.  If it turns out he's innocent he'll be in deep do-do but if he is right about the guy he should be pardoned.
Title: Just got done watching "24". Now I'm pissed.
Post by: MicroBalrog on April 22, 2005, 09:26:44 AM
5th Amendment.
Title: Just got done watching "24". Now I'm pissed.
Post by: Glock Glockler on April 22, 2005, 02:02:35 PM
Micro,

"nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law"

This becomes very grey.  Suppose the police are notified that several people have just been murdered and they have a description of the suspect as a white male with dark hair, 5 foot 10-6 foot 4, age 25-35, wearing blue jeans and a black shirt, last seen fleeing the scene.  An officer spots someone who fits the description very well, and he is out of breath with blood on his hands.  

The officer approaches him but he claims he was working on his car and that's why his hands are bloody, and he is out of breath because he is a heavy smoker and was doing some difficult car work, but he doesnt have any witnesses to confirm this.  He is then detained and held for an hour until he is brought to the police station until a witness can view him in a line-up.  This happens every day, and you cannot tell me that his liberty is not being infringed upon if he is indeed innocent, but what else could you do in that situation?  Should you get his address and ask him politely to be there in case the police need to arrest him later for multiple counts of murder?

What is appropriate course of action in dealing with someone suspcted of many terrorist acts, who definately has ties to other terrorists, who meets the description of a person who recently commited a crime, has definately made contact with terrorists who are planning an attack, and very likely knows of that attack that will kill thousands?  I'm sure that with enough time and investigation you could put together a solid case against him but by that time 14k people are dead.
Title: Just got done watching "24". Now I'm pissed.
Post by: HForrest on April 22, 2005, 05:23:43 PM
Temporarily detaining a criminal is much different than torturing someone. The murder suspect has access to a lawer, and will soon have access to fair bail. This is legal and a very different case then not allowing someone a lawer, not charging them with a crime, and torturing them.