Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: HankB on January 08, 2017, 10:46:10 AM
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. . . and has attracted media notice.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/gun-silencers-are-hard-to-buy-donald-trump-jr-and-silencer-makers-want-to-change-that/ar-BBy11ho?li=BBnb4R7&ocid=U270DHP (http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/gun-silencers-are-hard-to-buy-donald-trump-jr-and-silencer-makers-want-to-change-that/ar-BBy11ho?li=BBnb4R7&ocid=U270DHP)
The article is a little more "balanced" than usual, but mentions Donald Trump Jr. supports removing silencers/suppressors from NFA requirements and says that even when they reduce the sound of a gunshot from a dangerous to hearing 165 dB to 135 dB, guns are still as loud as a jackhammer.
Of course, they also cite someone bragging on YouTube that high powered guns will sound like pellet guns, and then demonstrating with a .22 rifle. :facepalm:
(Note that the microphones used for recordings on YouTube and the recordings themselves do NOT repeat NOT come anywhere near reproducing actual gunshot results, with or without suppressors.)
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Of course, they also cite someone bragging on YouTube that high powered guns will sound like pellet guns, and then demonstrating with a .22 rifle.
Maybe it's a high-powered .22?
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. . . and has attracted media notice.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/gun-silencers-are-hard-to-buy-donald-trump-jr-and-silencer-makers-want-to-change-that/ar-BBy11ho?li=BBnb4R7&ocid=U270DHP (http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/gun-silencers-are-hard-to-buy-donald-trump-jr-and-silencer-makers-want-to-change-that/ar-BBy11ho?li=BBnb4R7&ocid=U270DHP)
The article is a little more "balanced" than usual, but mentions Donald Trump Jr. supports removing silencers/suppressors from NFA requirements and says that even when they reduce the sound of a gunshot from a dangerous to hearing 165 dB to 135 dB, guns are still as loud as a jackhammer.
Of course, they also cite someone bragging on YouTube that high powered guns will sound like pellet guns, and then demonstrating with a .22 rifle. :facepalm:
(Note that the microphones used for recordings on YouTube and the recordings themselves do NOT repeat NOT come anywhere near reproducing actual gunshot results, with or without suppressors.)
When I shoot .22lr with a few different suppressors I own it does sound like a pellet gun. So does the Uzi with the suppressor, in Full Auto it sounds like an old fashioned telex machine. That doesn't mean they are silent and that is with generally subsonic ballistics. You can hear a pellet gun or old fashioned type writer/telex can be heard from a distance. That said it certainly isn't silent like in the movies. Even .223 sounds like pellet gun except for the sonic crack; but higher powered pellet guns can have the sonic crack too. No reason to try and hide anything though.
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. . . Even .223 sounds like pellet gun except for the sonic crack; but higher powered pellet guns can have the sonic crack too. . . .
Don't own a suppressor myself, but some time ago I was in a shoot where a guy was using a suppressed .223; with subsonics it was rather quiet, but with regular .223 ammo it was appreciably louder than a common pellet gun like an RWS M48 - or even an unsuppressed .22lr.
It was pretty funny - for everyone else! - when he entered a stage (shooting subsonics) without hearing protection and had a malfunction . . . so he transitioned to his sidearm, a Glock in .357 SIG. :O
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Great news.
I do suspect there is going to be a metric boatload of misinformation spread by the MSM and other idiots. Look for videos from Katie Couric featuring clips from all the movies where .45acps go "pfft". I'll be surprised if any MSM outlet (except maybe Fox) actually goes to a range and doesn't suppress (ha ha) the actual sounds.
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Don't own a suppressor myself, but some time ago I was in a shoot where a guy was using a suppressed .223; with subsonics it was rather quiet, but with regular .223 ammo it was appreciably louder than a common pellet gun like an RWS M48 - or even an unsuppressed .22lr.
It was pretty funny - for everyone else! - when he entered a stage (shooting subsonics) without hearing protection and had a malfunction . . . so he transitioned to his sidearm, a Glock in .357 SIG. :O
I'm not aware of any subsonic .223 that will cycle a an AR action ... maybe you were not seeing/hearing what you thought you were seeing/hearing? There is a reason .300BLK was invented.
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I'm not aware of any subsonic .223 that will cycle a an AR action ... maybe you were not seeing/hearing what you thought you were seeing/hearing? There is a reason .300BLK was invented.
That's quite possible - I didn't examine his rifle myself, all I know is what he (or maybe someone else at the match?) said. Maybe it was actually a .300 Whisper?
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That's quite possible - I didn't examine his rifle myself, all I know is what he (or maybe someone else at the match?) said. Maybe it was actually a .300 Whisper?
Or maybe one of a couple of brands of .22LR uppers. I was thinking oif buying one myself at one point.
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I really hope this law gets passed. I want to get a supressor ordered this year. I am leary of the long wait times. At the least, I hope Trump's people can get the BATFE off the stick on background checks. Maybe bring back the electronic registration.
If they pass that bill, all my spare change for the next year will be spent on suppressors for every caliber I own.
I would love to speculate on what the market changes would be if suppressors were no longer NFA items. Short term, I see them getting scarce due to demand. Long term, I think they will get pretty cheap and more guns will be designed to add them or have sound suppression built in somehow.
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We're trying to make them legal in Illinois... I don't have much hope given all the other shenanigans in Springfield, especially with the budget. And I can just hear all the Chicago Policritters HOWLING with righteous indignation given the killbox Chicago has become.
I'll have to ask if this passes at the Federal level, then what happens at the state level??
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I do suspect there is going to be a metric boatload of misinformation spread by the MSM and other idiots. Look for videos from Katie Couric featuring clips from all the movies where .45acps go "pfft". I'll be surprised if any MSM outlet (except maybe Fox) actually goes to a range and doesn't suppress (ha ha) the actual sounds.
Maybe she'll dig up the Rainbow Six game where you shoot out the fluorescent lights with a suppressed 5.7 (pretty much the limit of a 30gr subsonic's tactical usefulness, IMO) and not only do the guys around the corner in the same hallway not hear the shot, they don't hear the glass crashing down from 10-12 feet up. Suppressors even silence the targets, obviously.
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I really hope this law gets passed. I want to get a supressor ordered this year. I am leary of the long wait times. At the least, I hope Trump's people can get the BATFE off the stick on background checks. Maybe bring back the electronic registration.
If they pass that bill, all my spare change for the next year will be spent on suppressors for every caliber I own.
I would love to speculate on what the market changes would be if suppressors were no longer NFA items. Short term, I see them getting scarce due to demand. Long term, I think they will get pretty cheap and more guns will be designed to add them or have sound suppression built in somehow.
I'm all but certain they'd come down in price. I made my homemade Form 1 suppressor with a length of aluminum tubing, threaded cap, a threaded adapter for the barrel, and some freeze plugs. It cost less than $100 to buy those parts.
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I'm all but certain they'd come down in price. I made my homemade Form 1 suppressor with a length of aluminum tubing, threaded cap, a threaded adapter for the barrel, and some freeze plugs. It cost less than $100 to buy those parts.
Since I'm not all that up to speed on the various intrincatcies of the various BATFEIO forms since, all the fun toys are banned here in Illinois. You can go to the local hardware store and buy all the parts you need, build your own, and just tell the BATFEIO, "Here's my Form 1 (and some cash, I'm sure)." I nao haz Supressor !!" And it's all good?
Oh, do educate me Obi-Wan as to how this black magic is possible...
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Since I'm not all that up to speed on the various intrincatcies of the various BATFEIO forms since, all the fun toys are banned here in Illinois. You can go to the local hardware store and buy all the parts you need, build your own, and just tell the BATFEIO, "Here's my Form 1 (and some cash, I'm sure)." I nao haz Supressor !!" And it's all good?
Oh, do educate me Obi-Wan as to how this black magic is possible...
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/07/09/build-silencer-part-1/
If the HPA passes, I'll be ordering some stainless tubing ...
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http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/07/09/build-silencer-part-1/
If the HPA passes, I'll be ordering some stainless tubing ...
I'll be buying a tig welder and building all kinds of stuff.
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If the HPA passes, my next purchase will be a Silencerco Hybrid. Next up will be to send my 35Whelen barrel off to be threaded. I'll use the Hybrid on my AR, my 308 bolt rifle, and the 35Whelen single-shot. :)
Chris
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If the HPA passes, my next purchase will be a Silencerco Hybrid. Next up will be to send my 35Whelen barrel off to be threaded. I'll use the Hybrid on my AR, my 308 bolt rifle, and the 35Whelen single-shot. :)
Chris
If it passes, I'll be at the gun store the day it becomes law to buy one of each.
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If it passes, I'll be at the gun store the day it becomes law to buy one of each.
I'd consider that too, but the hybrid is the only one that will work on my 35Whelen. If SilencerCo's numbers are to be believed, it matches the performance of dedicated cans for each of the applicable guns and is roughly the same size. There would be no benefit to having dedicated cans.
Chris
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Since I'm not all that up to speed on the various intrincatcies of the various BATFEIO forms since, all the fun toys are banned here in Illinois. You can go to the local hardware store and buy all the parts you need, build your own, and just tell the BATFEIO, "Here's my Form 1 (and some cash, I'm sure)." I nao haz Supressor !!" And it's all good?
Oh, do educate me Obi-Wan as to how this black magic is possible...
You have to file the Form 1 (Application To Make And Register A Firearm), pay your $200, then wait six months for the approved form. Then you can go to the hardware store. Or you can just look up "solvent trap" and find a whole bunch of almost-ready-to-assemble suppressors for $100 to $250. I think the weak point of all of them is the baffles. None of them have the baffle designs that have been shown to be most effective.
Still, a 25 or so db reduction using freeze plugs is pretty good.
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I've been toying with the idea of making a Form 1 suppressor myself - I have a mini-lathe - but haven't wanted to do the "keep out of jail" paperwork, so I haven't done anything.
That will change quickly if/when the HPA passes.
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I've been toying with the idea of making a Form 1 suppressor myself - I have a mini-lathe - but haven't wanted to do the "keep out of jail" paperwork, so I haven't done anything.
That will change quickly if/when the HPA passes.
Same here, except it's a not-so-mini Clausing, and a MIG welder with an Argon tank :)
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I will also spluge for a can or three of this comes to pass.
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I would definitely put a can on my elk rifle. Given how we hunt (via paddle craft) the extra weight is a non-issue. For deer hunting though that would be a tougher call. I haven't gone totally back country just yet, but it's far enough that I'd rather not add the weight, plus the added length would be undesirable given what I routinely hike through there.
The range only guns would most definitely get cans. And I'd finally get a decent HD rifle, and that would without question get a can. Rifles outdoors are loud enough. Indoors, and they'd be far worse. If I'm ever in an HD situation I'd like to be able to still hear when the cops finally show up minutes/hours later.
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If they were to be removed from the NFA, I wonder if that would have the benefit of speeding up processing times for getting your stamp for the others.
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Same here, except it's a not-so-mini Clausing, and a MIG welder with an Argon tank :)
I had access to a Clausing at work - even though I've "tweaked" my mini-lathe quite a bit and upped the precision so it does quite decently within its size limitations, it simply doesn't have the features, rigidity, or power of a real machine.
And the closest thing I have to a MIG welder is a Bernz-O-Matic propane torch. :rofl:
I suspect with so many garage-shop mechanics trying out designs for new cans, we'll see an advance in the state of the art . . . and I think patent attorneys for commercial can manufacturers will be going prematurely gray.
You have to file the Form 1 (Application To Make And Register A Firearm), pay your $200, then wait six months for the approved form. Then you can go to the hardware store. Or you can just look up "solvent trap" and find a whole bunch of almost-ready-to-assemble suppressors for $100 to $250. I think the weak point of all of them is the baffles. None of them have the baffle designs that have been shown to be most effective.
Still, a 25 or so db reduction using freeze plugs is pretty good.
The available Form 1 "kit" baffles seem to be improving - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHAZAZ8b09M (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHAZAZ8b09M)
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Since I'm not all that up to speed on the various intrincatcies of the various BATFEIO forms since, all the fun toys are banned here in Illinois. You can go to the local hardware store and buy all the parts you need, build your own, and just tell the BATFEIO, "Here's my Form 1 (and some cash, I'm sure)." I nao haz Supressor !!" And it's all good?
Oh, do educate me Obi-Wan as to how this black magic is possible...
You could do this as well: http://www.2acheck.com/oil-filter-suppressor/ (http://www.2acheck.com/oil-filter-suppressor/)
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The available Form 1 "kit" baffles seem to be improving - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHAZAZ8b09M
The Roninpro baffles are better than most solvent traps. From what I've read, K baffles are the most effective for rimfire suppressors. The Roninpro solvent traps are also now about $250, which would get you into an AAC Element 2, Xcaliber Genesis, or any number of suppressors that have as much as 41db of reduction.
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If they were to be removed from the NFA, I wonder if that would have the benefit of speeding up processing times for getting your stamp for the others.
Why would you need a stamp if it is not NFA anymore?
You don't need a tax stamp for your average over the counter firearm.
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Why would you need a stamp if it is not NFA anymore?
You don't need a tax stamp for your average over the counter firearm.
I think he means other NFA toys.
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I suspect with so many garage-shop mechanics trying out designs for new cans, we'll see an advance in the state of the art . . .
Over the past fifteen years suppressor design has matured a lot. A lot of really smart, talented engineers have gotten into the game and done some pretty cool things. I doubt Cletus or Jesse James are going to bring a whole lot of useful innovation to the table.
In the commercial market, the benefits we would see most would be relating to decreased weight and cost. Think disposable, or close to it.
I've been watching a guy from New Zealand who has done some pretty cool things with selective laser melting to manufacture cans. Very lightweight - under 5 ounces for a centerfire pistol can complete with booster, and under 6 ounces for a 5.56mm can. My guess is we'd see some very lightweight, fully sealed $300-$400 centerfire suppressors made with that kind of technology, tons of $50-$150 .22LR suppressors made from all kinds of junk, and a whole lot of high-end suppressor manufacturers either out of business entirely or selling their logo to be put on cheap junk manufactured by Remchester.
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Over the past fifteen years suppressor design has matured a lot. A lot of really smart, talented engineers have gotten into the game and done some pretty cool things. I doubt Cletus or Jesse James are going to bring a whole lot of useful innovation to the table.
But if there are 10,000 Cletuses (Cleti?) mucking about, maybe one of them will eventually hit on something useful - after all, even a blind squirrel can sometimes find an acorn.
And not every potential home experimenter is a toothless doofus - I've no doubt that there are some smart folks who just haven't applied their innovative ideas thanks to the NFA.
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You could do this as well: http://www.2acheck.com/oil-filter-suppressor/ (http://www.2acheck.com/oil-filter-suppressor/)
Those work surprisingly well on small caliber. Especially with water
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk
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The real game changer will be not suppressor but integrally suppressed firearms. I'm thinking of the latest Russian designs. Absent restrictions you'd think guns would go the way if cars and be silenced as part of the whole design.
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Ruger already has an integrally suppressed .22 pistol. Don't know how it sells.
Removing the restrictions may give incentive to finding a way to make suppressors smaller while still reducing the sound pressure the same amount. Right now I don't think there's enough sales to justify the R&D.
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Ruger already has an integrally suppressed .22 pistol. Don't know how it sells.
Removing the restrictions may give incentive to finding a way to make suppressors smaller while still reducing the sound pressure the same amount. Right now I don't think there's enough sales to justify the R&D.
Suppressed .22 pistols go back to the OSS in WWII - more "recently" Francis Gary Powers, the (in)famous U-2 pilot, was allegedly issued a suppressed Hi-Standard .22.
The barrel had been drilled with many holes, wrapped with screen, and a tube placed over the wrappings.
https://www.shootingillustrated.com/articles/2011/9/21/arms-tech-limited-oss-hi-standard/ (https://www.shootingillustrated.com/articles/2011/9/21/arms-tech-limited-oss-hi-standard/)
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But if there are 10,000 Cletuses (Cleti?) mucking about, maybe one of them will eventually hit on something useful - after all, even a blind squirrel can sometimes find an acorn.
And not every potential home experimenter is a toothless doofus - I've no doubt that there are some smart folks who just haven't applied their innovative ideas thanks to the NFA.
I'm not saying hobbyists won't do cool stuff, just that things have progressed an awful lot recently and there are practical limits to significant advances that can be made with hobby-level equipment.
Also, while there are absolutely smart people who haven't tried their hand at suppressor design because of the NFA, it isn't as though the barriers to doing so are insurmountable now. Privately built Form 1 cans are no harder to get permission to build than to buy a commercial can.
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Washington Post reporter refuses to admit that he was wrong about calling the .22 LR "high-powered."
http://thefederalist.com/2017/01/11/washington-post-deliberately-misrepresented-youtube-video-showcasing-rifle-suppressor/
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Makes you wonder about those high-power pellet guns.
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Makes you wonder about those high-power pellet guns.
I have heard some of those pellet guns are pretty dang loud, especially the high velocity models.
..But that isn't the point. =D
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The real game changer will be not suppressor but integrally suppressed firearms. I'm thinking of the latest Russian designs. Absent restrictions you'd think guns would go the way if cars and be silenced as part of the whole design.
This is what I was thinking about. If suppressors were unrestricted, I think we would eventually get to the point that even the FUDD hunters would want some suppression to avoid spooking game. I would be curious what the major manufacturers would start doing to their standard guns to accommodate that. Maybe threaded barrels on pistols with the threads recessed into the frame so you don't have the extra length hanging out.
A lot of integrally suppressed guns I see are actually short barrels with a can set over them to look like part of the whole gun (10/22). Are there news ways to accomplish the same thing without a big can on the end of the barrel?
I hadn't considered disposable cans. That would be interesting if they were cheap. A permanent flash suppressor mount with disposable cans. If they were cheap enough, that would be good option. Might even avoid cleaning. There would always be people looking for the $1500 titanium model. I would probably end up with both.
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This is what I was thinking about. If suppressors were unrestricted, I think we would eventually get to the point that even the FUDD hunters would want some suppression to avoid spooking game.
No, it is about saving your hearing, not spooking game.
The muzzle report from a pellet rifle makes the rabbit in the "herd" I'm not shooting at jump along with the one who died.
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No, it is about saving your hearing, not spooking game.
The muzzle report from a pellet rifle makes the rabbit in the "herd" I'm not shooting at jump along with the one who died.
During some experimentation with "cat's sneeze" rounds (basically, heavy bullet with a tiny powder charge to make "too much gun" into "not too much gun and quiet too") I hit upon some loads for 7.62x54 that were barely as loud as a hard cough. I'd think that for small game out close to the edge of the accurate range, you could be thumping bunnies with a 200gr bullet at "hard pitch" velocities without scaring others nearby.
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During some experimentation with "cat's sneeze" rounds (basically, heavy bullet with a tiny powder charge to make "too much gun" into "not too much gun and quiet too") I hit upon some loads for 7.62x54 that were barely as loud as a hard cough. I'd think that for small game out close to the edge of the accurate range, you could be thumping bunnies with a 200gr bullet at "hard pitch" velocities without scaring others nearby.
How is that going to work on deer or elk sized game at 200-300 yards?
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No, it is about saving your hearing, not spooking game.
The muzzle report from a pellet rifle makes the rabbit in the "herd" I'm not shooting at jump along with the one who died.
From what I have heard from people who have shot wild pigs with suppressed rifles, the other pigs still scatter when the wounded pig squeals after being shot.
And I realize it is about saving hearing, but people do stuff for all sorts of reasons. I can see suppressors becoming the polite thing to do so as not to disturb nearby hunters or nearby game as well as helping the shooter with hearing. It might take some time for the culture change to sink in.
I would like to see Marlin and Rossi selling lever guns with threaded barrels.
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This is what I was thinking about. If suppressors were unrestricted, I think we would eventually get to the point that even the FUDD hunters would want some suppression to avoid spooking game. I would be curious what the major manufacturers would start doing to their standard guns to accommodate that. Maybe threaded barrels on pistols with the threads recessed into the frame so you don't have the extra length hanging out.
A lot of integrally suppressed guns I see are actually short barrels with a can set over them to look like part of the whole gun (10/22). Are there news ways to accomplish the same thing without a big can on the end of the barrel?
I hadn't considered disposable cans. That would be interesting if they were cheap. A permanent flash suppressor mount with disposable cans. If they were cheap enough, that would be good option. Might even avoid cleaning. There would always be people looking for the $1500 titanium model. I would probably end up with both.
Check out the VSS rifles online
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Man oh man, there needs to be a ton of education on this subject, including for people labeling themselves "gun enthusiasts". Many of the comments to the article linked below are ridiculous, especially from the people that identify themselves as "competitive shooters" and "former Special Forces". ;/
Also from the experts at Brady:
“There’s no evidence of a public health issue associated with hearing loss from gunfire,” Kristin Brown, of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, told The Los Angeles Times.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/01/14/hill-republicans-try-to-ease-purchase-gun-silencers-as-nra-backed-trump-arrives.html
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I guess I didn't go far enough into the comments. Most of what I saw is the usual stuff to be expected. As they become more common, at least some of that will go away (not all).
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How is that going to work on deer or elk sized game at 200-300 yards?
Not my problem; it's hard to find a clean 200yd shot on the family land, and unless something escapes from a game ranch, Texas whitetails are the biggest game out there. If I have to take down a cow, I'm going with full on .30-06 loads and expanding bullets, preferably with a second shooter to make extra sure it goes down and stays down. They may look docile and stupid, but 1600+ pounds of annoyed beef is unpredictable and dangerous.
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They may look docile and stupid, but 1600+ pounds of annoyed beef is unpredictable and dangerous.
But enough about the hosts of The View.
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My wonder, if this passes, is how soon the tech will become accessible enough to drive prices down. Hate paying as much for a can as I paid for the handgun. If I do get b bsa ck to hunting, though, I like the idea of using a suppressed rifle.
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I like the idea of using a suppressed rifle.
I like the idea of Bambi-huggers whining about it. :rofl:
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My wonder, if this passes, is how soon the tech will become accessible enough to drive prices down. Hate paying as much for a can as I paid for the handgun. If I do get b bsa ck to hunting, though, I like the idea of using a suppressed rifle.
I would think it could be pretty fast at least for the simpler designs. They can farm out additional fabrication or if they don't someone else will step in. Considering that some major gun manufacturers have suppressor lines, I bet they would be mass producing them in short order. I would be guessing though.
My other question: If you have a suppressor ordered and waiting for ATF approval, can you just go get it then?
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And I guess the question I still have is will the ATF suddenly start approving NFA applications faster under the new administration and catch up on the backlog?
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And what does this do to the process of making it for yourself? Or building a firearm with an integrated suppressor?
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And what does this do to the process of making it for yourself? Or building a firearm with an integrated suppressor?
if they are dropped from the NFA, I would assume it would be just like making your own firearm, like folks do now with 80% receivers or the sheet metal AK-47s.
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if they are dropped from the NFA, I would assume it would be just like making your own firearm, like folks do now with 80% receivers or the sheet metal AK-47s.
Cool. Seems like a MCAce 10" .38Spl or .45ACP adapter in a cheap breakover shotgun would just be begging to use all that extra outer barrel length as the outer shell of a suppressor. I guess the ideal would be to mount suppressor guts directly to the front of the adapter so the whole assembly slides into the shotgun. If you could figure a way to index it, getting accuracy up to the point to justify mounting better sights shouldn't be all that hard.
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They can farm out additional fabrication or if they don't someone else will step in.
Only if they farm it out to other FFLs. There was that one AR manufacturer in AZ that got in trouble with the BATFEio for farming out to non-FFL manufacturers,
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Only if they farm it out to other FFLs. There was that one AR manufacturer in AZ that got in trouble with the BATFEio for farming out to non-FFL manufacturers,
They must have been Plum Crazy to do that...
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I have hyperacusis and tinnitus from shooting a shotgun once. I was wearing plugs. This can't pass fast enough.
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Follow up thought...if this passes and suppressors become far more common for hunting, target and competition use, will they lose the stigma such that a suppressor on a home defense firearm becomes a good idea?
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Think of how much this would boost the gun industry. Integral suppressors on new firearms. Plus the number of new suppressors along with retrofitting existing guns and existing designs.
Huge Growth industry.
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They must have been Plum Crazy to do that...
Yes, but what was their name? :laugh:
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And what does this do to the process of making it for yourself? Or building a firearm with an integrated suppressor?
What I have heard is the suppressor would still have to be bought with a NICS check and I heard something about a $5 fee. So I am not sure if the regulations go away completely. It may end like guns are now. You can make your own, but add a serial number and don't go into business selling them.
I would rather seem them become unregulated complete same as a car muffler.
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I would rather seem them become unregulated complete same as a car muffler.
Well duh.
Considering what we have today, I'll take a 4473 and $5 fee to move the ball down the field a bit.
Chris
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Wouldn't a $5 fee indicate it was still NFA as "Any Other Weapon"? Everything I've reads looks like a normal firearm; NICS check, skipped if you have a CCW.
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Yes, but what was their name? :laugh:
What's on second. Who's on first.